http://www.ada.org/news/8366.aspx
This is real. Should be an eye opener for people contemplating dentistry.
This is real. Should be an eye opener for people contemplating dentistry.
Declining incomes of dentists is real
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Utilization is down all around in other elective-type fields, too. It's across the board. I've heard the same things coming from spine surgeons, plastics, and sports medicine ortho docs. I think there will be an uptick again once we have a full economic rebound.
While the "Great Rescission" may not be the sole cause of the decrease in incomes, I would have to imagine it has had some affect. I know it definitely affected the incomes in other fields like finance in the form of reduced bonuses, or just straight layoffs.
The ADA also has an article about the estimate of there being significant increases in dental spending throughout the course of the decade.
http://www.ada.org/news/7173.aspx
The ADA also has an article about the estimate of there being significant increases in dental spending throughout the course of the decade.
http://www.ada.org/news/7173.aspx
I agree. 👍
Given the mindset of the typical American, going to the dentist regularly is probably one of the first things to go when they're short on cash. I'm sure things will turn around as soon as the middle class gets back on their feet and not afraid of losing their shirt.
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No. There won't be this time. Lots of reasons why. Unprecedented sea changes in the demographics of N. America in the present and future is the biggest reason
The middle class is DOA. Shirts are generally gone. No way to get them back, either. Check this out, from before the 'great recession' (the collapse of the middle class didn't happen overnight and it isn't coming back overnight, ie the so-called 'great recession' was merely the final death blow):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A
By the way, OP (Utahdoc) why do dentists in Utah do so poorly in terms of salary relative to the rest of the nation?
(specifically I am referring to the graph titled, "average mean wage of dentists, general, by area, May 2012" about 3/4 way down the webpage)
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291021.htm
If the answer has anything to do with over-saturation, then what in the heck is Utah doing opening 2 new dental schools? Trying to encourage dentists to fulfill the urban myth of dentists being prone to suicide, then?
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BF,
I have read about this a bit on dentaltown and the main reason appears to be saturation in Utah and especially Salt Lake.
sc
😎
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If the answer is over-saturation, then, and assuming a reasonable 50% of graduates of these Utah dental schools are going to stick around in Utah in the coming decades, opening these 2 new schools is professional suicide. Insanity, then? Or just short term stupid on the part of administrators/ those with their fingers on the purse strings to make debt available?
If I was local to the Utah area trying to practice financially responsible dentistry (to get by with an income to feed my family at the end of the day), I would not be happy with this situation seeing as how its already difficult enough in Utah. Not at all. 1 school, alright, stupid enough: but 2?
I love how Obama-economics is supposed to transcend the laws of supply and demand🙄 "If we indebt it, they will come"
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If the answer is over-saturation, then, and assuming a reasonable 50% of graduates of these Utah dental schools are going to stick around in Utah in the coming decades, opening these 2 new schools is professional suicide. Insanity, then? Or just short term stupid on the part of administrators/ those with their fingers on the purse strings to make debt available?
If I was local to the Utah area trying to practice financially responsible dentistry (to get by with an income to feed my family at the end of the day), I would not be happy with this situation seeing as how its already difficult enough in Utah. Not at all. 1 school, alright, stupid enough: but 2?
I love how Obama-economics is supposed to transcend the laws of supply and demand🙄 "If we indebt it, they will come"
Yeah, I agree. No need for another school. But as they saying goes, "you have to go where the jobs are." I think the cold, hard answer is to leave Utah (or not go there in the first place) or to specialize.
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The reasoning for the new schools in Utah ties in with Utah being the biggest exporter of pre-dental students that matriculate into dental schools. It gives them avenues to go to dental school in Utah, graduate, and practice in Utah versus going to dental school in a different state and coming back to Utah to practice. Utah is saturated because so many of LDS go into dentistry and practice in Utah regardless of whether there is new schools or not.
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The majority of the native Utahn's that chose to attend dental school in Utah decided over other acceptances elsewhere. I'm not suggesting that other Utahn's who will return to the state didn't take those seats relinquished but definitely less than would originally have. Also, while there will be two schools, the combined output is 100 graduates per year which is equal to or less than other individual dental schools elsewhere in the country.
The program at the University of Utah is simply a cancellation of the existing program with Creighton and keeping the 20 dental students in state at the U.
Another point, all the "Obama this and Obama that" is getting nauseating. While I guess the point could be made that government supported loans for expensive dental schools means dental schools can charge more (or more can open up), it would seem to me many private lenders would also dole out the cash if there was no government loans given dentistry's good track record financially. Also, it might be idealistic/naive, but CODA had the ultimate say as to whether or not to approve these new schools and from what I recall reading a few years back, they did do studies as to whether or not they could justify the need for dental schools.
Just the thoughts of a non-Utahn.
Edits:
The majority of the native Utahn's that chose to attend dental school in Utah decided over other acceptances elsewhere. I'm not suggesting that other Utahn's who will return to the state didn't take those seats relinquished but definitely less than would originally have. Also, while there will be two schools, the combined output is 100 graduates per year which is equal to or less than other individual dental schools elsewhere in the country.
The program at the University of Utah is simply a cancellation of the existing program with Creighton and keeping the 20 dental students in state at the U.
Another point, all the "Obama this and Obama that" is getting nauseating. While I guess the point could be made that government supported loans for expensive dental schools means dental schools can charge more (or more can open up), it would seem to me many private lenders would also dole out the cash if there was no government loans given dentistry's good track record financially. Also, it might be idealistic/naive, but CODA had the ultimate say as to whether or not to approve these new schools and from what I recall reading a few years back, they did do studies as to whether or not they could justify the need for dental schools.
Just the thoughts of a non-Utahn.
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Ok. First Utah is not just saturated it is supersaturated thus everybody makes way less esspecially the younger docs. My co worker made 62000$ last year. He owes over 300k. Many here need to work nights and weekends. I know I do. It's called the Utah pay cut every professional takes it. I had a pt last week a radiologist. Just moved back he said he make one third less here. People do it because this is where they are from they have family here.
Specializing will not fare you much better. We have been inundated with oms lately. Many of them are struggling. The generalist there are the more they need to keep in house. That hurts all specialties.
Docs here are not to worried about the dental schools. The u of u is very small and the grads coming out of roseman can not earn enough to service their debt here so they will have to settle elsewhere.
Dentistry is tough more so in Utah. My brother works for Goldman Sachs here in Utah makes more than me and is ten years younger. He has no debt and just a four year degree. I guess finance is the new healthcare as far as income goes. I believe healthcare now is truly becoming an exercise in altruism.
Specializing will not fare you much better. We have been inundated with oms lately. Many of them are struggling. The generalist there are the more they need to keep in house. That hurts all specialties.
Docs here are not to worried about the dental schools. The u of u is very small and the grads coming out of roseman can not earn enough to service their debt here so they will have to settle elsewhere.
Dentistry is tough more so in Utah. My brother works for Goldman Sachs here in Utah makes more than me and is ten years younger. He has no debt and just a four year degree. I guess finance is the new healthcare as far as income goes. I believe healthcare now is truly becoming an exercise in altruism.
Finance has always done well.
BTW: I'm going to throw this out there... do many dentists (and other professionals) go back to Utah because it's the Mormon motherland? I've noticed a lot of dentists tend to be Mormon and desire to be close to the Temple.
BTW: I'm going to throw this out there... do many dentists (and other professionals) go back to Utah because it's the Mormon motherland? I've noticed a lot of dentists tend to be Mormon and desire to be close to the Temple.
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Utahdoc,
Is it safe to say that making 200K is out of the question in Utah? I can't believe that your co-worker makes only 62K. That's nuts! Is he a generalist? Does he own a practice? Or an associate or corporate dental worker?
Let's be real for a second. The Mormon dentists go back to Utah because their wives (not plural marriage wives, just the wife of each dentist) are not willing to live elsewhere. I am Mormon and lucky enough to not live in Utah. Just never marry a girl from Utah. They are many times not willing to leave for anything.
Thank you for being real. This is what I suspected. EVERY LDS friend I've had has been relocating soon after marriage to SSC Utah. LDS go into two fields: Dentistry and FBI. I imagine there is a glut of them in Utah and DC.
200 k. I am sure there are lots making that here. But they are older with established practices and. O practice debt. Very few in my age group will make that here. My coworker owns a practice he works at three days a week and associates with us for two. He is thinking about moving to greener pastures but it's hard his wife is from here. He has been trying tO make a go of it for two years now. I tell all the predents I know if you really need or want to live in Utah you should choose something other than dentistry. My father in law sells insurance does much better than any dentist around here. He didn't even go to college. Man I have the grass is greener syndrome really bad right now.
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Interesting, Utah. What about specialists? Someone mentioned in an earlier post that an Oral Surgeon in SLC makes about 1/3 of what he was getting somewhere else. Would you say that is true? Also, for generalists who own a practice and are a bit younger, what would you say is a reasonable take-home for them in SLC? 150K? And then from that deduct academic and practice loans?
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As a general rule of thumb, it seems like GPs and specialists both in dentistry and medicine make less than their counterparts elsewhere in the country. Lots of LDS applicants thus lots of LDS doctors who want to live here.
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It's all about having to continually "re-invent" your practice to adapt with the constantly changing times that always have and always will be in place.
The reality is for the VAST majority of practices out there, you just simply don't have patients walking through your door on a daily basis who have 10-20k+ in disposable income and are asking for roundhouse veneers and/or a slew of crown and bridge work with little to no sales effort needed on your part.
The last few years (and likely for the forseeable future) has taught essentially everyone, reguardless of their income level, to be more cost conscious and "shop around" a bit before buying. This completely applies to dentisty too.
I know from speaking with many of my colleagues that while we all still look at comprehensive and quadrant dentistry, most of us are doing a bunch more "single tooth" dentistry today and in the recent past. Many of us have also started doing SOME procedures that we used to refer out (i.e. a bit more endo, a bit more oral surgery, maybe some minor ortho via invisalign, some pedo, etc), in effect we're "reinventing" our practices a bit to adapt to today's environment. And in a few years, we'll likely evolve our practices to something to reflect that future time.
Lastly, why a grad, unless they have a 100% sound and solid job lined up (likely from a relative) upon graduating d-school would seriously look at an already saturated market to practice in is beyond me! 😕 There's a HUGE amount of this country where the market is far from saturated, and hence much easier for you to find a job and/or start up a practice. So many folks will claim that there's some strong tie to a certain geographical area and that they "have" to practice there. I say, CUT THE UMBILICAL CORD!!! Branch out and grab some entreprenurial spirit and go for it!
I know that in my own household, if you asked me and my wife, prior to going to d-school, where we thought we'd be practicing, neither of us would of said "rural Eastern CT" (I envisioned my self practicing in suburban upstate NY and my wife thought that she'd be practicing in Boston), but the opportunities presented themselves, and we found out that living in a rural area wasn't anything like the "social and shopping blackhole" that we wrongfully thought it was.
The reality is for the VAST majority of practices out there, you just simply don't have patients walking through your door on a daily basis who have 10-20k+ in disposable income and are asking for roundhouse veneers and/or a slew of crown and bridge work with little to no sales effort needed on your part.
The last few years (and likely for the forseeable future) has taught essentially everyone, reguardless of their income level, to be more cost conscious and "shop around" a bit before buying. This completely applies to dentisty too.
I know from speaking with many of my colleagues that while we all still look at comprehensive and quadrant dentistry, most of us are doing a bunch more "single tooth" dentistry today and in the recent past. Many of us have also started doing SOME procedures that we used to refer out (i.e. a bit more endo, a bit more oral surgery, maybe some minor ortho via invisalign, some pedo, etc), in effect we're "reinventing" our practices a bit to adapt to today's environment. And in a few years, we'll likely evolve our practices to something to reflect that future time.
Lastly, why a grad, unless they have a 100% sound and solid job lined up (likely from a relative) upon graduating d-school would seriously look at an already saturated market to practice in is beyond me! 😕 There's a HUGE amount of this country where the market is far from saturated, and hence much easier for you to find a job and/or start up a practice. So many folks will claim that there's some strong tie to a certain geographical area and that they "have" to practice there. I say, CUT THE UMBILICAL CORD!!! Branch out and grab some entreprenurial spirit and go for it!
I know that in my own household, if you asked me and my wife, prior to going to d-school, where we thought we'd be practicing, neither of us would of said "rural Eastern CT" (I envisioned my self practicing in suburban upstate NY and my wife thought that she'd be practicing in Boston), but the opportunities presented themselves, and we found out that living in a rural area wasn't anything like the "social and shopping blackhole" that we wrongfully thought it was.
Good advice, Jeff, but its about as shocking to 80% of the people on here that the universe extends beyond CA and NY as per-Colombian eras' folks about the New World. A lot of them just think they are 'special' and can do it regardless.🙂
It's true I see it every year here in Utah. New or recent grads come here thinking they are the exception and they will thrive because they have vision and passion. Then reality hits and most quietly leave. Last year almost 50 young dentists left the state. They just can't make enough to service their debt and live a normal middle/low middle class life. I soon will also be leaving their is just not a lot of opportunity here. I've been here eight years.
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That is horrible sorry to hear this.
What are some of the specific things, including specific under-saturation numbers, a new grad should look for in an area after graduating? (Utah has lots of rural areas but it seems even the rural rule doesn't apply in such places?)
I hate the idea of being a tramp after graduation. Would like to move perhaps once after graduation and stay put for all of dentist career.
How to evaluate an area? Is there a list of like 3-10 most important things to be able to assign a good answer to before committing to move there and establish a long term practice?
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