Defined workload

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Patho2009

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When some of our staff go for vacation, I get overwhlemed with cases.

I was told that some institutions define the "work-load"..meaning you are not affected when someone goes away and you can do the work within your defined workload. If you decide to go over your limits, you can get paid for the additional work you do !!!

I don't think this can work out...Does the so-called "defined worklaod" exist?

How does your department manage such situations?

Very curious to know.
 
Never heard of that in pathology, personally. I wouldn't be surprised if it exists in some contracts, I suppose.

As far as the department/lab goes, however, if they are regularly leaving cases an extra day or two or more then they're going to have turnaround time issues, which is probably a bigger problem than one person occasionally being busy when other people are on vacation.
 
are you salaried? I cant help without more info.

What is your precise biz structure?

ie-you are salaried at a VA hospital, jr partner in private prac, co-owner in a small outpatient lab, academic jr attending etc. etc,
 
We don't have defined workloads. All the work gets done. If there is a critical staffing shortage certain things might get delayed but that is extremely rare (pap smears maybe). We limit the # of paths that can be off on any one day, including within specialty areas so that no service is left uncovered. No one gets extra pay for doing anything (except autopsies). Pay goes down if you take too many vacation days.
 
There are 5 of us and we work exactly like Yaah. We limit the number of people that can be away at any given time. For those of us in small to medium sized groups, I really can't see how a "defined workload" could work as a general policy (part-timers and other specificaly restricted contracts aside). The work has to get done by somebody.

Yaah, you mentioned subspecialty areas. Do you have redundant everything? Or do generalists cover those areas? We have 1 hemepath and she sometimes leaves for up to a month. I and one of my partners take the smears and marrows. We can perform reasonable impersonations of a hematopathologist, but there are subtleties that we may miss. Does anyone work in a group where if say, your lone hemepath goes away, the group tells the heme/onc docs to send the marrows elsewhere?
 
Does anyone work in a group where if say, your lone hemepath goes away, the group tells the heme/onc docs to send the marrows elsewhere?

This would be a horrendously bad idea. Your oncologists would be better served to just sending all the cases somewhere else then, eh?

Never tell a client: "sorry I cant service your level of action". Your group should be one that guides where the case needs to go when your expertise dries up or goes on break, ie- academic consult.

Regardless, no group should be relying 100% on one guy to do a subset of general pathology.

If you cant
1.) sign out basic bone marrows
2.) skin biopsies
3.) peripheral smears
4.) basic non-neoplastic lung or liver

then you suck, pure and simple. Take a course, read more, put down the xbox controller, whatever it takes to be competent in general pathology.
 
I never meant to imply a lack of general competence in hemepath or any of the areas you mentioned, or any other area for that matter. We do exactly as you suggest and decide ourselves when to send a case elsewhere when needed.

However, you make a good point about client perception that I hadn't thought of. I feel as if I've been given a good dope slap; and in this case, perhaps deservedly so.
 
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This would be a horrendously bad idea. Your oncologists would be better served to just sending all the cases somewhere else then, eh?

Never tell a client: "sorry I cant service your level of action". Your group should be one that guides where the case needs to go when your expertise dries up or goes on break, ie- academic consult.

Regardless, no group should be relying 100% on one guy to do a subset of general pathology.

If you cant
1.) sign out basic bone marrows
2.) skin biopsies
3.) peripheral smears
4.) basic non-neoplastic lung or liver

then you suck, pure and simple. Take a course, read more, put down the xbox controller, whatever it takes to be competent in general pathology.

I know there are groups out there where one guy does the flow and when he goes on vacation they have to send the flow elsewhere. Probably works like that for marrows too.
 
I know there are groups out there where one guy does the flow and when he goes on vacation they have to send the flow elsewhere. Probably works like that for marrows too.

All old community pathologists are competent at reading bone marrows, at least what I remember from my rotations reviewing outside cases. They just use funny out of date terminology, like "M4" and stuff like that, but when you read their micros and translate their diagnoses into modern parlance, I could tell they actually knew what they were doing. But no way can old pathologists read modern flow.
 
This would be a horrendously bad idea. Your oncologists would be better served to just sending all the cases somewhere else then, eh?

Never tell a client: "sorry I cant service your level of action". Your group should be one that guides where the case needs to go when your expertise dries up or goes on break, ie- academic consult.

Regardless, no group should be relying 100% on one guy to do a subset of general pathology.

If you cant
1.) sign out basic bone marrows
2.) skin biopsies
3.) peripheral smears
4.) basic non-neoplastic lung or liver

then you suck, pure and simple. Take a course, read more, put down the xbox controller, whatever it takes to be competent in general pathology.

Amen
 
All old community pathologists are competent at reading bone marrows, at least what I remember from my rotations reviewing outside cases. They just use funny out of date terminology, like "M4" and stuff like that, but when you read their micros and translate their diagnoses into modern parlance, I could tell they actually knew what they were doing. But no way can old pathologists read modern flow.

It's not just the pathologists. The problem is they are working with old clinicians who want you to use the old terminology. It can be a pain in the ass. They want to know M1 vs M2 and get really upset when you aren't positive which one it is. Some clinciians and pathologists don't seem to know what "urothelial" means. I get calls sometimes - "do you mean transitional cell?" Yes, dipwad. Pick up a journal once in awhile.

I don't think there is such a thing as "basic non-neoplastic lung biopsy" anymore. Radiology makes the diagnosis in common things. We only get biopsies when they aren't sure, which usually means the histology isn't classic for anything either.
 
🙄I made a big deal about this in my post because we as a profession are in CRISIS.

Business crisis, personal crisis and even clinical crisis.

Its bad. Im seeing HIGHLY trained 2+ fellowship academic star staff pathologists being FIRED...routinely. They are pitching load of crap to groups with stuff like "Well Im not good at marrows, I cant do them" or "Breast really isnt my strong area, I cant look at this"

Not be cliche, but WTF is wrong with kids today??

Seriously. You whine about training and hours required like attendings are waterboarding you at GitMo. You whine when people screw you over in the real world. You whine about doing GENERAL pathology. You whine about having to know business. Reading the newer SDN posts in the general residency forum is making me SICK.

Im not joking, Ive actually had residents drop out of training because they werent getting laid, seriously. You want 9-3 hours, doing only 1 super subspec area of pathology, free lunches, lapdances and the ability to do 7-gram lines with Charlie Sheen at the Chateau Marmont in Hollywood on the weekends...

Seems like modern society is just falling apart all around me.

I agree the modern monolithic academic medical culture is doing no one favors, but at some point trainees/jr staff need to man up.
 
🙄I made a big deal about this in my post because we as a profession are in CRISIS.

Business crisis, personal crisis and even clinical crisis.

Its bad. Im seeing HIGHLY trained 2+ fellowship academic star staff pathologists being FIRED...routinely. They are pitching load of crap to groups with stuff like "Well Im not good at marrows, I cant do them" or "Breast really isnt my strong area, I cant look at this"

Not be cliche, but WTF is wrong with kids today??

Seriously. You whine about training and hours required like attendings are waterboarding you at GitMo. You whine when people screw you over in the real world. You whine about doing GENERAL pathology. You whine about having to know business. Reading the newer SDN posts in the general residency forum is making me SICK.

Im not joking, Ive actually had residents drop out of training because they werent getting laid, seriously. You want 9-3 hours, doing only 1 super subspec area of pathology, free lunches, lapdances and the ability to do 7-gram lines with Charlie Sheen at the Chateau Marmont in Hollywood on the weekends...

Seems like modern society is just falling apart all around me.

I agree the modern monolithic academic medical culture is doing no one favors, but at some point trainees/jr staff need to man up.

Cut supply, raise standards, increase competition.

Path is in a crisis because of the types of applicants it attracts and accepts:

1. low board scorers (since the boards are mostly path, this is worrisome)
2. slackers (obviously)
3. FMGs trying to get into the system so that they can raise their kids affluently(I vehemently disagree with this. If you want to play in the major leagues, you gotta come up through the minors. Go to med school here)
4. Type B personalities (easily bullied and lack the balls to either stand up for themselves or work through it)

...and also because of the applicants it repels:

1. people who desire prestige
2. people who desire money
3. people who desire moderate amounts of respect for their work
4. people who do not like to cut up dead bodies
5. people who desire to do something that is considered valuable

So far path fails on all fronts.

The way to fix it is to cut residency spots, and only accept high-quality AMGs to the spots - raising the bar is a simple way to limit the oversupply of pathologists. Medical autopsy needs to go - its expensive and of dubious utility in today's strapped medical system. Doing these things will attract harder working, more focused and driven individuals who actually value their work and bring respect to the field, rather than the mid to low tier chaff.
 
1. people who desire prestige
2. people who desire money
3. people who desire moderate amounts of respect for their work
4. people who do not like to cut up dead bodies
5. people who desire to do something that is considered valuable

So far path fails on all fronts.

The way to fix it is to cut residency spots, and only accept high-quality AMGs to the spots - raising the bar is a simple way to limit the oversupply of pathologists. Medical autopsy needs to go - its expensive and of dubious utility in today's strapped medical system. Doing these things will attract harder working, more focused and driven individuals who actually value their work and bring respect to the field, rather than the mid to low tier chaff.

I think this is a double edge sword. OK- there are people in path who are type B and spineless. I think that if you're type A and have cohones, you should easily be able to rise above the "low tier chaff" and kick @ss. You should still be able to demand respect.

I also don't buy that autopsy service dissuades good candidates from going into path. That's pretty silly, IMHO. You man up and do your 50 cases and you're done. You want to do path- that's part of the deal. I don't think it would dissuade people more than a prelim year in medicine, by any stretch.
 
There are 5 of us and we work exactly like Yaah. We limit the number of people that can be away at any given time. For those of us in small to medium sized groups, I really can't see how a "defined workload" could work as a general policy (part-timers and other specificaly restricted contracts aside). The work has to get done by somebody.

Yaah, you mentioned subspecialty areas. Do you have redundant everything? Or do generalists cover those areas? We have 1 hemepath and she sometimes leaves for up to a month. I and one of my partners take the smears and marrows. We can perform reasonable impersonations of a hematopathologist, but there are subtleties that we may miss. Does anyone work in a group where if say, your lone hemepath goes away, the group tells the heme/onc docs to send the marrows elsewhere?

There is some redundancy for everything. But we have 15, not 5. We don't send everything to one person because when that person goes away the others may not feel as competent. So, for example, while we have one person who is best suited to sign out breast, he doesn't see all the breast cases when he is here.

In a sense we are all generalists though. Some in the group are more tightly focused and don't do certain things. Some don't do cytology, some don't do heme, but there is enough overlap that it works.
 
Its bad. Im seeing HIGHLY trained 2+ fellowship academic star staff pathologists being FIRED...routinely. They are pitching load of crap to groups with stuff like "Well Im not good at marrows, I cant do them" or "Breast really isnt my strong area, I cant look at this"

Not be cliche, but WTF is wrong with kids today??

Seriously. You whine about training and hours required like attendings are waterboarding you at GitMo. You whine when people screw you over in the real world. You whine about doing GENERAL pathology.

Residents are told during training that it is impossible to be a competent generalist. This is myth is propagated by academics who only sign out one organ and push residents into sub-specializing. Recent trainees probably say these things because the hemepath attendings at their program told them they could never sign out bone marrows without a heme fellowship. No breast cases without a breast fellowship, etc.
 
Cut supply, raise standards, increase competition.

Path is in a crisis because of the types of applicants it attracts and accepts:

1. low board scorers (since the boards are mostly path, this is worrisome)
2. slackers (obviously)
3. FMGs trying to get into the system so that they can raise their kids affluently(I vehemently disagree with this. If you want to play in the major leagues, you gotta come up through the minors. Go to med school here)
4. Type B personalities (easily bullied and lack the balls to either stand up for themselves or work through it)

...and also because of the applicants it repels:

1. people who desire prestige
2. people who desire money
3. people who desire moderate amounts of respect for their work
4. people who do not like to cut up dead bodies
5. people who desire to do something that is considered valuable

So far path fails on all fronts.

The way to fix it is to cut residency spots, and only accept high-quality AMGs to the spots - raising the bar is a simple way to limit the oversupply of pathologists. Medical autopsy needs to go - its expensive and of dubious utility in today's strapped medical system. Doing these things will attract harder working, more focused and driven individuals who actually value their work and bring respect to the field, rather than the mid to low tier chaff.

For someone who isn't a pathology resident, you certainly come on here whining about them an awful lot. I don't know where you went to med school, but I can assure you if you step foot into any good pathology program, the board scores are not poor (our institution, most folks have a 240 or better and we've never had a FMG), nor do any of the residents slack (hard to slack when you are working 80 hours a week on surg path).

I will agree, in general, pathologists are nicer people, and probably do need to step up and fight harder regarding the buisness end of things. But to call all of us low board scoring slackers is ignorant.
 
Path is in a crisis because of the types of applicants it attracts and accepts:

1. low board scorers (since the boards are mostly path, this is worrisome)
2. slackers (obviously)
3. FMGs trying to get into the system so that they can raise their kids affluently(I vehemently disagree with this. If you want to play in the major leagues, you gotta come up through the minors. Go to med school here)
4. Type B personalities (easily bullied and lack the balls to either stand up for themselves or work through it)


1. Not true. I thought Step I scores on average were slightly above the national mean. That's fine. If we cut the number of residency slots, the mean would undoubtedly increase. I never had the impression that people chose pathology because of low board scores. I also don't think board scores are the best predictor of talent as a pathologist. Step I does not test the same knowledge as the AP and CP pathology boards. A couple of months of lectures and medical school small groups doesn't introduce you to much pathology. I was part of a group that did not need Step II and III to match, and many of us took them with 2 to 3 weeks of preparation and passed. I'm not sure you can use those scores as valid comparisons of intelligence or knowledge between the specialties, although you would expect pathologists to score lower on Step III for certain (you'd sort of hope that was the case, but I'm actually not sure that it is).

2. I'm at a program where you have to be very careful not to exceed work hour restrictions, and clinical pathology call may keep you awake all night. Our residents are exceedingly competitive, engage in numerous research projects, and bust ass. Some clinicians do not appreciate that you cannot render a preliminary diagnosis on a core biopsy that was placed in fixative seven minutes ago. Others become angry when a frozen section diagnosis is delayed because we are inundated and inadequately staffed, but if pathology residents truly slacked-off, then the entire hospital would come to a screeching halt. We don't stay in the hospital when we are on call. We get to sit down throughout the day more often than do clinicians. We also have some very light clinical path months, but on the AP side we run around. Things slow down on the weekends, but we are usually in-house previewing slides, studying, or working on projects.

3. Some of the most talented residents at my program received medical training outside of the United States. We are fortunate to attract the best of the best. You make it sound like no ambitious American med school grad in her right mind would choose pathology; then I would rather look to the outside for a stellar colleague than put up with one of your so-called low board scoring, type-B personality slackers.

4. Someone should probably present data on the personality types that are likely to enter each specialty of medicine. There are obvious stereotypes of each kind of physician, but to categorize any group of physicians as wimpy or reticent is questionable. To make it in medicine, you need to be outgoing and decisive. You need to be aggressive and confident. I see these characteristics in my colleagues.


...and also because of the applicants it repels:

1. people who desire prestige
2. people who desire money
3. people who desire moderate amounts of respect for their work
4. people who do not like to cut up dead bodies
5. people who desire to do something that is considered valuable

So far path fails on all fronts.


1. Not true. We have a lot of these.

2. Not true. We historically have been compensated above what is considered the mean compensation for a physician and reportedly we work fewer hours as attendings.

3. Not true. I have not met a pathology resident who does not want respect. I have encountered different hospital environments and in some atmospheres pathologists receive more respect than in others. This is a direct reflection of the leadership. There may be a culture at some hospitals where it is acceptable for clinicians to mistreat pathologists or vice versa, but this is not a universal truth.

4. Not true. We have a lot of these and most of them will not perform autopsies routinely as attendings. The majority of them will not perform autopsies as attendings at all. Most attending pathologists wear a shirt and tie to work and don't worry much about getting dirty. That is not true of every clinical specialty and especially not of the ones that offer higher pay or serve as the focus of television dramas.

5. Not true. People who understand just how valuable pathology is will laugh at this. The average Joe may not know what a pathologist is, but he learned everything he knows about medicine from watching Scrubs and Grey's Anatomy. I have relatives who insist that their biopsy was read by a machine and not a human, that coagulation studies are performed in a little back room somewhere and overseen by the treating clinician, and that ABO compatibility is the only thing you really have to consider when transfusing red cells. Most people think there is a disease called "cancer" that comes in one flavor equally affecting different organs. There are abundant misconceptions and that is fine. What is embarrassing is when a clinician has misconceptions about what a pathologist does and does not do, how diseases are diagnosed, how to properly use a laboratory study, etc. In surgical pathology alone, the volume of information we need to cram into our heads is too much for any clinician to have time to memorize. Patients want to know what they have and not what the clinical impression dictates, so as long as physicians want to look smart and make accurate decisions, then they need to partner with pathologists.
 
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Ok, maybe I should have stipulated, in at least the last five years, we have not had an fmg. I don't care enough to look back further than that.

That being said, I'm not anti-fmg. If they work hard and are smart, bring 'em on board.
 
What is embarrassing is when a clinician has misconceptions about what a pathologist does and does not do, how diseases are diagnosed, how to properly use a laboratory study, etc.

Agreed. And one of our roles as pathologists should be to educate them in this regard. It requires patience and a little extra time, but I really think that if we all persistently work on this (rather than lamenting the awful state of things) it will help increase the standing of our specialty.

On the other hand, I am an optimist, so take it or leave it. 😉
 
I also think we should be more involved in the educational process at the medical student level, which is evidently not widely the case given the relatively widespread misconceptions among practicing clinicians of what a pathologist (MD) is and does. People finish medical school with the notion that they've done or know a lot of pathology because of the heavy emphasis on basic science pathophysiology, which seems to be largely taught by academic clinicians or PhD (non-MD) "pathologists", and simply perpetuates the false sense of understanding what an AP/CP pathologist does. Otherwise we're fighting an uphill battle in Hades to educate all of the chronically misinformed/underinformed clinicians out there with established misconceptions.
 
3. people who desire moderate amounts of respect for their work
5. people who desire to do something that is considered valuable

Everyone else has pretty much nailed why your whole post was flawed. Let me just add that as a pathologist you are the very first person in the world, and until you share your report, the ONLY person in the world who KNOW'S what a patient has. Every decision from the moment you look down that scope is absolutely dependent on you and you alone; what you say, what studies you get, what consults you may or may not need etc. If you can't respect yourself and then garner respect from other colleagues as a result then you don't belong in medicine at all let alone pathology. Additionally, the cost of diagnosing even the most complicated case is a small fraction of the cost of the surgery, chemotherapy, hospital stay etc. We, as a specialty, are positioned to save more of our asses than most other specialties if we don't forget these things - AND don't shut up about them.
 
I also think we should be more involved in the educational process at the medical student level, which is evidently not widely the case given the relatively widespread misconceptions among practicing clinicians of what a pathologist (MD) is and does. People finish medical school with the notion that they've done or know a lot of pathology because of the heavy emphasis on basic science pathophysiology, which seems to be largely taught by academic clinicians or PhD (non-MD) "pathologists", and simply perpetuates the false sense of understanding what an AP/CP pathologist does. Otherwise we're fighting an uphill battle in Hades to educate all of the chronically misinformed/underinformed clinicians out there with established misconceptions.

This.

Even if teaching just an hour a week out of a private practice at the local Med school.
 
Even if teaching just an hour a week out of a private practice at the local Med school.

That brings up a good point: Do any of you guys in private practice do any teaching/training of med students or residents? I have often wondered how practical it is to be a private practice educator.

Jerad
 
That brings up a good point: Do any of you guys in private practice do any teaching/training of med students or residents? I have often wondered how practical it is to be a private practice educator.

Jerad

At my school, many of our path lectures in 2nd year were given by private practice pathologists.
 
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That brings up a good point: Do any of you guys in private practice do any teaching/training of med students or residents? I have often wondered how practical it is to be a private practice educator.

Jerad

It varies by practice location and type. Where I am, our hospital has many residents but not pathology residents. So we get interested medicine or surgery residents from time to time spending a day with us. The dermpaths in our group work with derm residents. I suppose pathology residents from the program on the other side of town could theoretically come over if they wanted to. The problem we have with it is efficiency and reimbursement - we don't get paid to teach and it slows us down big time. So we don't want residents around most of the time.

In general though if you want to teach there will almost always be opportunties. But you may have to seek them out.
 
After a falling out with the local dermatology department (where dermpath resided) due to their abruptly demanding we pay them (the same amount they charged to outside rotators wanting to do an elective) to send our path residents to sit in on sign-outs -- despite being part of the same academic institution -- we started rotating with a private practice dermpath who had some prior personal connections to the program. Actually worked out great for the residents. I'm not entirely clear what sort of payment was involved in that situation, if any, but in general that's certainly feasible if a practice is regularly providing a significant amount of time & teaching (as with a rotation, recurring lectures, etc.).
 
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