Defining Normality: Undergraduate Research

[TJuniper]

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Hi.

I'm an undergraduate and for the past semester, have been working in a lab, for 18 hrs a week. Although I get credit for one semester I get nothing else. Additionally, I am primarily doing administrative work in the lab, rather than research work, although this may change in the future.

They have asked me to commit to another year doing the same hours. I've been advised to stay just because the person I work under is rather famous, even though i am not getting much experience so far, they say I will get experience in the future.

I love the research environment. Having seen what it is like, I can't wait for a chance to actually be involved in the process. I don't mind administrative work as long as I'm learning about research as well, I enjoy hard work and am happy to help in any way possible, but resent being in this position (when they agreed to take me, they said it would be for research). I feel that because I've been so good about helping in "grunt work", they've taken advantage of it and don't plan to give me any research work, and I don't know how to change this now. Is there any way to change it?

How would it look if I left this big name lab doing grunt work, in order to find a position that would actually allow me to learn more about research? And is 18 hours a week crazy for undergrad? I have been so overwhelmed this semester and don't think I can do this any more.

What do you think? Any advise? big name vs. actual work + more probably pubs, which is better?
TJ

 

[Ollie123]

Hard to say for certain, though I'm sorry you are having what sounds like a bad experience.

Quality research experience is critical. On the one hand if you are not getting quality experience in research, that isn't a good use of your time. On the other hand, I don't know what your expectations are, and switching labs does not necessarily guarantee anything either.

Can you tell us what you mean by administrative work? I have no way of knowing if this is the case for you but I've noticed some undergraduates have....inflated views of both what research itself looks like, and what they are capable of at this stage. They sometimes expect to be taking on more than they are realistically ready for, or don't realize that even the average PI has tons of "mundane" day-to-day responsibilities outside of the true "research" activities.

18 hours a week is quite a bit unless you are being paid...at both my undergrad and grad the standard is 10, though obviously some elect to work more. We are generally happy to have RAs who are motivated to get more involved in the research, but they also have to prove to us they are capable of handling it...and doing so typically involves at least a year or so of phone screens, data entry, assembling participant folders, running participants, and other fairly mundane tasks, I don't know if that is what you mean by administrative tasks, or if they are just having you get coffee for people so a bit more detail on your duties would be helpful. Related to this (and please don't take offense...remember I have no way of knowing whether this is true for you or not)...how has your performance been at this grunt work? Some people have troubles getting enthused about it, which is understandable in some ways. However, if you are coming across as unhappy, or if you aren't performing it well because you resent being handed those tasks in the first place, its unlikely you will be trusted with more complicated tasks. I have had several RAs who did seem motivated who couldn't be given more complicated tasks because, quite frankly, they hadn't proved they could handle the straightforward stuff first, let alone something more advnaced. Whether that is due to boredom or due to incompetence I can't say, but I'm not particularly inclined to take a risk on someone like that.

WIthout anything further:
1) If there are RAs who have been around for longer, talk to them about how their experience went. Also talk to graduate students/staff about ways to get involved.
2) Don't be afraid to speak up. Part of the reason you may feel "stuck" in this role is just that no one has thought about how to get you more involved. Particularly if this is a large lab, you are probably the last thing on the mind of your immediate supervisor, let alone the PI. RAs who have proven themselves capable and approach me "wanting" more difficult work are often pleasantly surprised. Sometimes I assign tasks to those who don't approach me, but often times the status quo persists unless they speak up...its unfortunate, but the reality is that we are all very busy and have no way of knowing if people are bored and dying for more work, or if they are completely overwhelmed with the little bit they have already been given unless they tell us.
3) Don't be afraid to leave if you can't get the experience you need. Leave on good terms so this person can still be a reference and their name is still likely to help you out significantly. That said, make sure that you really cannot get the experience before leaving (unless you have other reasons for wanting additional experiences), and that it isn't just a matter of those experiences being available, but not necessarily handed to you.

 

[TJuniper]

Quality research experience is critical. On the one hand if you are not getting quality experience in research, that isn't a good use of your time. On the other hand, I don't know what your expectations are, and switching labs does not necessarily guarantee anything either.

My expectations are very small. Publishing would be nice of course, but I would be happy with data entry etc. Right now I've been getting coffee (literally) and making copies, labeling deidentified stuff, etc.

Can you tell us what you mean by administrative work? I have no way of knowing if this is the case for you but I've noticed some undergraduates have....inflated views of both what research itself looks like, and what they are capable of at this stage. They sometimes expect to be taking on more than they are realistically ready for, or don't realize that even the average PI has tons of "mundane" day-to-day responsibilities outside of the true "research" activities.

I don't expect intellectually stimulating work at this stage, but I do want to be contributing to research.

18 hours a week is quite a bit unless you are being paid...at both my undergrad and grad the standard is 10, though obviously some elect to work more. We are generally happy to have RAs who are motivated to get more involved in the research, but they also have to prove to us they are capable of handling it...and doing so typically involves at least a year or so of phone screens, data entry, assembling participant folders, running participants, and other fairly mundane tasks, I don't know if that is what you mean by administrative tasks, or if they are just having you get coffee for people so a bit more detail on your duties would be helpful. Related to this (and please don't take offense...remember I have no way of knowing whether this is true for you or not)...how has your performance been at this grunt work? Some people have troubles getting enthused about it, which is understandable in some ways. However, if you are coming across as unhappy, or if you aren't performing it well because you resent being handed those tasks in the first place, its unlikely you will be trusted with more complicated tasks. I have had several RAs who did seem motivated who couldn't be given more complicated tasks because, quite frankly, they hadn't proved they could handle the straightforward stuff first, let alone something more advnaced. Whether that is due to boredom or due to incompetence I can't say, but I'm not particularly inclined to take a risk on someone like that.

10 hours would be more reasonable but they insist I commit to at least 16 a week, too much for me.

WIthout anything further:
1) If there are RAs who have been around for longer, talk to them about how their experience went. Also talk to graduate students/staff about ways to get involved.
2) Don't be afraid to speak up. Part of the reason you may feel "stuck" in this role is just that no one has thought about how to get you more involved. Particularly if this is a large lab, you are probably the last thing on the mind of your immediate supervisor, let alone the PI. RAs who have proven themselves capable and approach me "wanting" more difficult work are often pleasantly surprised. Sometimes I assign tasks to those who don't approach me, but often times the status quo persists unless they speak up...its unfortunate, but the reality is that we are all very busy and have no way of knowing if people are bored and dying for more work, or if they are completely overwhelmed with the little bit they have already been given unless they tell us.
3) Don't be afraid to leave if you can't get the experience you need. Leave on good terms so this person can still be a reference and their name is still likely to help you out significantly. That said, make sure that you really cannot get the experience before leaving (unless you have other reasons for wanting additional experiences), and that it isn't just a matter of those experiences being available, but not necessarily handed to you.

Thank you so much for your response.
1) The people there are not in quite the same position as me and the person in charge did me a favor accepting me, so I am not comfortable askign them about whether it's worth it to stay here.
2) What can I say that won't seem presumptous?
3) I will take your advice. Thank you so much!

 

[TJuniper]

Any advice what I should do in the future? Since this is my first experience, is there something I can do to fix it or should I start anew?

 

[somedude14]

Any advice what I should do in the future? Since this is my first experience, is there something I can do to fix it or should I start anew?

I would ask to be more directly involved in the research process. It doesn't matter if the dude your working for is "rather famous" if your just getting his coffee and making copies you are wasting your time.

If they don't want you to do any research work (even data entry) then I would work in another lab. You can obtain good research experience as an undergrad, don't sell yourself short. I was seeing psychiatric patients, running an fMRI, and was involved with the intellectual development of major research projects as an undergrad because I sought out those experiences. I would never get some guy's coffee if I could be do something more productive.

Good luck!

 

[TJuniper]

I would ask to be more directly involved in the research process. It doesn't matter if the dude your working for is "rather famous" if your just getting his coffee and making copies you are wasting your time.

Thanks. That phrase was used to clarify the problem. It doesn't matter to me whether someone is famous, but I understand that when applying to grad school it matters that a person is well-known, so it seemed important to include that.

If they don't want you to do any research work (even data entry) then I would work in another lab. You can obtain good research experience as an undergrad, don't sell yourself short. I was seeing psychiatric patients, running an fMRI, and was involved with the intellectual development of major research projects as an undergrad because I sought out those experiences. I would never get some guy's coffee if I could be do something more productive.

Good luck!

Thanks. I'll have to wait and see then. In that case, the question seems to be that, if they say I have to commit to a year of at least 16 hrs a week in order to do data entry, is it reasonable?
I very much appreciate your advice.

 

[Ollie123]

Just be honest. Say something like "I've had the opportunity to get familiar with the research that is done here, but if I'm going to continue on next year I need to know that I could get involved more heavily in things like x, y & z" and guage their reaction. There is probably a better way to word it, but you get the idea.

If this lab is all post-BA RAs that seems a bit weird, and may account for your role since you are definitely the "low man on the totem pole" so to speak. That sounds like an unusual setup to me, so I'm not sure how that could have come about or what the implications are.

We can't tell you if its possible to fix or not - we don't know you or your PI. If you haven't made it abundantly clear to higher-ups that you WANT more research work, I think it is certainly worth trying but we have no idea if it will be effective or not. If you like the work and it is in your area of interest, I would recommend trying to make the most of the experience rather than just abandoning ship and starting over because you don't want to ask for ways to get more involved (which reflects on an important skillset to develop, by the way). If tried and failed, or it seems likely to fail after you give it a try than absolutely - move on with your life and find someplace where you can get better experience.

 

[Mauricia]

I think I would find a different lab. It seems really odd to me. Usually labs require a 10 hour commitment per week where I am, 16 is a lot. However I've never heard of anyone not even getting to do basic research activities like data entry. At least at my school, undergraduates will do the grunt work without getting paid, but the grunt work is all still part of the research process. The professors are then very grateful and reward them by letting them work on an independent project, such as mentoring their honors thesis or an independent study. In all my labs the professors are very good about giving back to the students since we donate time to the lab. I find it odd that you would even be getting their coffee, I go to a top university and work with some famous, well regarded professors and none of them would ever ask someone to get their coffee. It seems like you are finding that this lab is not a good match for you. Working under a famous professor will be of no advantage if you aren't doing quality work, it is better to have a LOR from an unknown professor who can genuinely speak highly of your research skills.

 

[TJuniper]

Just be honest. Say something like "I've had the opportunity to get familiar with the research that is done here, but if I'm going to continue on next year I need to know that I could get involved more heavily in things like x, y & z" and guage their reaction. There is probably a better way to word it, but you get the idea.

Ok. I'm going to try this. Additionally, I need to cut down the hours due to my stress level, should I ask to work less or will it seem I am not serious enough?

If this lab is all post-BA RAs that seems a bit weird, and may account for your role since you are definitely the "low man on the totem pole" so to speak. That sounds like an unusual setup to me, so I'm not sure how that could have come about or what the implications are.

Yes, I am the low man and it's an unusual situation, it is not in my college.

We can't tell you if its possible to fix or not - we don't know you or your PI. If you haven't made it abundantly clear to higher-ups that you WANT more research work, I think it is certainly worth trying but we have no idea if it will be effective or not. If you like the work and it is in your area of interest, I would recommend trying to make the most of the experience rather than just abandoning ship and starting over because you don't want to ask for ways to get more involved (which reflects on an important skillset to develop, by the way). If tried and failed, or it seems likely to fail after you give it a try than absolutely - move on with your life and find someplace where you can get better experience.

OK. I am definitely going to try again, but in a different way than I have before, more directly asking for research work.

I think I would find a different lab. It seems really odd to me. Usually labs require a 10 hour commitment per week where I am, 16 is a lot. However I've never heard of anyone not even getting to do basic research activities like data entry. At least at my school, undergraduates will do the grunt work without getting paid, but the grunt work is all still part of the research process. The professors are then very grateful and reward them by letting them work on an independent project, such as mentoring their honors thesis or an independent study. In all my labs the professors are very good about giving back to the students since we donate time to the lab. I find it odd that you would even be getting their coffee, I go to a top university and work with some famous, well regarded professors and none of them would ever ask someone to get their coffee. It seems like you are finding that this lab is not a good match for you. Working under a famous professor will be of no advantage if you aren't doing quality work, it is better to have a LOR from an unknown professor who can genuinely speak highly of your research skills.

Well, they needed someone to get it, and I didn't mind, but I wasn't told to get coffee as part of a job description. Your opinion is what I've been wondering. It's hard to find another such position but having this experience it would be a little more doable.

This is my first such experience, and I've had no experienced people in the field to advise me, (in real life of course🙂) so I'm going to take this as a learning experience whether it works or not. I don't expect myself to do everything perfectly the first time.

Like Ollie said, I will have to speak up, and if nothing changes I will have to do what Mauricia suggests. When i speak up, shoudl I mention that I need less hours, or wait for their response to the research issue?

 

[Phipps]

Hi.


What do you think? Any advise? big name vs. actual work + more probably pubs, which is better?
TJ

Hey:

I started as a research team member, for two years, unpaid, far less than 18hrs/week though (sounds a little bit too much to me). But if you don't feel explored but like what you do...

I ended up with a graduate RA, paid, 20hrs/week. I guess, one has to start low and somewhere...

Good luck

 

[TJuniper]

Hey:

I started as a research team member, for two years, unpaid, far less than 18hrs/week though (sounds a little bit too much to me). But if you don't feel explored but like what you do...

I ended up with a graduate RA, paid, 20hrs/week. I guess, one has to start low and somewhere...

Good luck

I appreciate your sharing your experience.
That's amazing.


Just following up, the situation resolved itself and I appreciate all of your advice, especially Ollie123, somedude, and Mauricia.