dental anesthesiology residency?

[OzDDS]

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Does anyone know any details about attending a dental anesthesiology residency? Are you allowed to do general anesthesiology in hospitals or is this only for doing IV sedation in office? I have heard of a DDS doing an MD anesth training program but this was in the ?70s. Does this ever happen now? Wasn't dentists who pretty much invented the field of anesth in the first place? We should have some control of the field. 🙂

 

[captaintripps]

Does anyone know any details about attending a dental anesthesiology residency? Are you allowed to do general anesthesiology in hospitals or is this only for doing IV sedation in office? I have heard of a DDS doing an MD anesth training program but this was in the ?70s. Does this ever happen now? Wasn't dentists who pretty much invented the field of anesth in the first place? We should have some control of the field. 🙂

http://www.dental.pitt.edu/students/stu_prog_gradres_anesth.html#anesth

http://www.adsahome.org/

 

[OzDDS]

Thanks for the links.. Do graduates of these programs work as regular anesthesiologists? If not, what is the point of doing such a long anesth residency when you could just do a shorter certificate program for IV sedation?

 

[captaintripps]

Thanks for the links.. Do graduates of these programs work as regular anesthesiologists? If not, what is the point of doing such a long anesth residency when you could just do a shorter certificate program for IV sedation?

Not sure.

 

[Hildergard]

Want to be an anesthesiologist? Then go to Medical school!

 

[ip]

Want to be an anesthesiologist? Then go to Medical school!

I agree. Loma Linda also has a program. From my experience, I don't think that they get the training necessary to do general anesthesia. There is a reason why it's a medical specialty.

Graduates seem to focus on providing IV Sedation for GP's and doing GA for kids that won't sit still. I do know that they make a lot of money but jeez, it's boring.

 

[OzDDS]

I agree. Loma Linda also has a program. From my experience, I don't think that they get the training necessary to do general anesthesia. There is a reason why it's a medical specialty.

Graduates seem to focus on providing IV Sedation for GP's and doing GA for kids that won't sit still. I do know that they make a lot of money but jeez, it's boring.

Just curious then, if when you graduate from a dental anesthesiology residency that is 3 years long and your scope of practice is no greater than someone who did a 1-2 year IV sedation certificate.. why would anyone want to enroll in something like this?

 

[ip]

Just curious then, if when you graduate from a dental anesthesiology residency that is 3 years long and your scope of practice is no greater than someone who did a 1-2 year IV sedation certificate.. why would anyone want to enroll in something like this?

I don't know about others but I know that Loma Linda is 2 years. You can take sedation courses like the Malamed has that take a couple months but it doesn't qualify you for GA, which is what kids & handicapped generally get. You legally need 2 years minimum to do GA or deep sedation.

 

[OzDDS]

"The federal regulation does not distinguish between a DDS anesthesiologist and a D.O. or M.D. anesthesiologist." This also says that a DDS anesthesiologist has the same ability to supervise CNRAs that an MD or DO anesthesiologist has.

http://www.kscourts.org/ksag/opinions/1998/1998-057.htm

 

[ip]

"The federal regulation does not distinguish between a DDS anesthesiologist and a D.O. or M.D. anesthesiologist." This also says that a DDS anesthesiologist has the same ability to supervise CNRAs that an MD or DO anesthesiologist has.

http://www.kscourts.org/ksag/opinions/1998/1998-057.htm

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

[OzDDS]

What do you mean? It simply says that Dentists who complete an anesthesiology residency are equivalent to MD or DO anesthesiologists. Meaning you have an equal scope of practice (including supervising CRNAs), and equal salary.

 

[OzDDS]

http://www.nbanesth.org/history.html


So I guess it does pay to do the full residency. 🙂

 

[OzDDS]

Want to be an anesthesiologist? Then go to Medical school!

Apperantly you don't have to.

 

[phosphorylation]

Apperantly you don't have to.

extremely interesting thread. definately something to think about...

 

[Gutta Percha]

From the dental anesthesiologist that I know, they do just go into GP's and Pedo offices and do GA. I don't know if they can go into a hospital and do it. They do make a ton of money b/c buying drugs is fairly inexpensive, you don't need your own office, and just travel from office to office. He charges I think 300/hour. Pedo offices really like them b/c you don't have to tell a parent "we need to do your child's dentistry in the hospital".

 

[OzDDS]

a lot of the oral surgeons I know mostly do wisdom tooth extractions.. but that doesnt mean that is all they are allowed to do. They probably do mostly in office IV stuff because that is what is reimbursed the greatest.

 

[Supernumerary]

"The federal regulation does not distinguish between a DDS anesthesiologist and a D.O. or M.D. anesthesiologist." This also says that a DDS anesthesiologist has the same ability to supervise CNRAs that an MD or DO anesthesiologist has.

http://www.kscourts.org/ksag/opinions/1998/1998-057.htm

Just because the state defines the scope of practice to be the same does NOT mean you are going to be able to get the same position as an MD gasman. Hospitals are very political places and dentists fall somewhere between nurses and phlebotomists in the pecking order. I would be pretty surprised if there are many DDS anesthesiologists who work outside of a dental setting. There are probably exceptions but I bet they are rare.

 

[captaintripps]

dentists fall somewhere between nurses and phlebotomists in the pecking order. QUOTE]

That is a bunch of bullsh't

 

[OzDDS]

Just because the state defines the scope of practice to be the same does NOT mean you are going to be able to get the same position as an MD gasman. Hospitals are very political places and dentists fall somewhere between nurses and phlebotomists in the pecking order. I would be pretty surprised if there are many DDS anesthesiologists who work outside of a dental setting. There are probably exceptions but I bet they are rare.

haha.. tell that to a single degree Dentist and Oral and Maxillofacial surgeon or a Dentist and Anesthesiologist and watch them laugh as they escort you out the front of the very hospital they work at.

 

[OzDDS]

You don't see many dentists who are anesthesiologists because most dentists find the income, working hours with no call just fine with general dentistry. But that does not mean we are not capable of doing so.

Just because the state defines the scope of practice to be the same does NOT mean you are going to be able to get the same position as an MD gasman.

Sure it does! That is exactly what it means.. If the law defines a DDS/DMD, DO, MD, who all completed an anesthesiology residency to be equal practitioners. And why wouldn't dentists be, we do more local blocks than anyone else anyways.. Hell.. Like I said before Dentists invented the specialty of Anesthesiology in the first place! I think have a right to practice it. 😀

 

[ip]

Oz, are you asking because you want to do a dental anesthesia residency and end up in a medical OR?

 

[OzDDS]

I'm not sure what I want to specialize in yet, or if I'd want to specialize at all. Just interested in learning about what all is possible in regards to a career in Dentistry. The possibilities are a lot greater than many think.

 

[ip]

I'm not sure what I want to specialize in yet, or if I'd want to specialize at all. Just interested in learning about what all is possible in regards to a career in Dentistry. The possibilities are a lot greater than many think.

Yes they are. I did a 3 month rotation in dental anesthesia and I deal with dental anesthesia residents on a daily basis so I know something about it. For various reasons, once they graduate they invariably work by going to pedo offices to perform sedation or general anesthesia on kids/handicapped patients. No one goes on to do hospital anesthesiology.

You should also know that it's not an ADA recognized specialty and they are constantly fighting with OMFS, medical anesthesiologists and everyone else who learns sedation. But it is good money.

 

[OzDDS]

Concerning dentists history with anesth. why isn't it an ADA accredited training pathway? Are dental anesths currently doing anything to change that? Even though the current law already views them as legal equiv to MD and DO aneths, woudn't ADA accreditation help them out in regards to advancement and promotion of the specialty. Which it seems started as a dental specialty that medicine took over.. 🙂

 

[OzDDS]

Also I think OMFS should retain their ability to do sedation, if dental anesth was ADA accredited how would this affect OMFS? Why would they fight in the first place? It seems OMFS would have the right take on or refuse anesth care regardless who its from (DO, MD, DDS, or CNRA). But nice to have it available if the OMFS for any reason doesn't feel like taking on the role of both aneth and surgeon. Can you tell us more about the dynamics of the field as it currently is and what you forsee for the future? What steps do you think would be in the best interest for dentists to take regarding anesth training in general? Thanks for your help! 👍

 

[Sensei_Sevo]

dentists fall somewhere between nurses and phlebotomists in the pecking order. QUOTE]

That is a bunch of bullsh't

Not really. 😎

 

[OzDDS]

Not really. 😎

Technically speaking, if the law states we are legal equivalents of MD and DO anesthesiologists. Not that were trying to "step on anyones toes", but there is really nothing keeping DDS anesths from creating their own anesth groups, getting contracts, and taking care of the anesth needs of entire hospitals.
But instead we work beside you (DO or MD) to provide patient care and most of DDS anesth apperantly work in surgicenters anyway, but this is not to say that we do not have the legal right to do otherwise. 😛

You should be more worried about CRNAs than Dentists anyways.. Trust me, not every dentist will be jumping at the chance to give up their job as a general dentist to work as an anesth. You cannot say the same for nurses!!! 😀

 

[gryffindor]

No one goes on to do hospital anesthesiology.

I'll know more next week when I start my anesthesia rotation, but we do have trained dental anesthesiologists at my hospital who not only do the dental anesthesia cases but also do other hospital (non-dental) cases as well. The dental anesthesia residents train right alongside the medical anesthesia residents and start their residency doing the anesthesia for everything BUT dental surgeries. The dental part (OR cases for OMS & Pedo) comes a few months into their training, but they still do a lot of medical stuff and have to attend a lot of the medical conferences and trainings for their program.

 

[LAZYGUY]

Anesthesiologists have nothing to fear. Remember MDs run departments and hospitals. If they let CRNAs in its because they have allowed that. You never hear of a CRNA being the chair of anesthesiology do you?? or a DDS for that matter....you can poke fun at anything you want and stick your tongue out and laugh at situation sbut the fact of the matter is, MDs have run the show, and will run the show, period. So states can mandate whatever the hell they want this however doesn't force MDs into any corner. By looking at your previous posts you seem to have an inferiority complex, always trying to prove that DDS are somehow equivalent to MDs. They aren't equivalent. But DDS is not inferior to an MD either. We all have a part in taking care of patients and should work as collegues---not rivals.

Technically speaking, if the law states we are legal equivalents of MD and DO anesthesiologists. Not that were trying to "step on anyones toes", but there is really nothing keeping DDS anesths from creating their own anesth groups, getting contracts, and taking care of the anesth needs of entire hospitals.
But instead we work beside you (DO or MD) to provide patient care and most of DDS anesth apperantly work in surgicenters anyway, but this is not to say that we do not have the legal right to do otherwise. 😛

You should be more worried about CRNAs than Dentists anyways.. Trust me, not every dentist will be jumping at the chance to give up their job as a general dentist to work as an anesth. You cannot say the same for nurses!!! 😀

 

[bwyeth]

my cousin has been a dental anesthesiologist for a few years now since finishing his residency at loma linda, and in talking to him, he says that there is currently a lot of resistance for the field to be officially recognized as a specialty. in fact, there are only 7 states or so that he can practice. on the upside, though, he is always booked out 3 to 4 months in advance, so there is no shortage of work. also, he charges $400 per hour, and with no staff or office overhead, all he has to do is buy the drugs and show up to the dental offices (mostly pediatric dentists). his malpractice ins is a little higher, as well, but not too significantly.

 

[OzDDS]

By looking at your previous posts you seem to have an inferiority complex, always trying to prove that DDS are somehow equivalent to MDs. They aren't equivalent.

Apperantly, regarding the practice of Anesth it is legally equivalent, and would be no different than DO in this reguard.

But DDS is not inferior to an MD either. We all have a part in taking care of patients and should work as collegues---not rivals.

Very True! 👍

 

[OzDDS]

I'll know more next week when I start my anesthesia rotation, but we do have trained dental anesthesiologists at my hospital who not only do the dental anesthesia cases but also do other hospital (non-dental) cases as well. The dental anesthesia residents train right alongside the medical anesthesia residents and start their residency doing the anesthesia for everything BUT dental surgeries. The dental part (OR cases for OMS & Pedo) comes a few months into their training, but they still do a lot of medical stuff and have to attend a lot of the medical conferences and trainings for their program.

Sweet, Maybe the residents can share what they think about this pathway with SDN. keep us updated! 🙂

 

[Dr. Wexler]

Do any phsysician trained anesthesiologists provide sedation for dental patients in ambulatory settings?

 

[toofache32]

My experience as an OMFS resident is that we dentists learn anesthesia for the benefit of our own patients, not some other surgeon's patients. This is why dental anesthesiologists have no need or desire to bother with hospitals, because we do it for OUR patients in OUR offices. This is in contrast to MD anesthesiologists who cannot exist without surgeons to bring them patients (and likewise, the surgeons need the anesthesia to operate).

 

[OzDDS]

Do any phsysician trained anesthesiologists provide sedation for dental patients in ambulatory settings?

Yeah, I think so.. (a lot of dental specialties include training in basic IV sedation).. I know the DO, MD, and DDS anesthesiolgists work with OMFS/pedo in the hospitals and also I think occasionally visit the surgery centers if for some reason the OMFS, Pedo, Prosth or whoever doesn't feel like taking over responsibility for the sedation as well. (if the patient is at higher risk, and the surgeon doesnt want to have to be mindful of BOTH the anesth maintaince AND surgery he/she is performing). But if that's the case, the surgeon would usually bring the patient to the hospital setting anyways.

 

[lnn2]

Just because the state defines the scope of practice to be the same does NOT mean you are going to be able to get the same position as an MD gasman. Hospitals are very political places and dentists fall somewhere between nurses and phlebotomists in the pecking order. I would be pretty surprised if there are many DDS anesthesiologists who work outside of a dental setting. There are probably exceptions but I bet they are rare.

You're smoking the bad stuff man! U. Pitt has an Anes. dept. 36months training. Yes, you can work at a hospital if you choose to do so (or hired) Of course you're not the same as a MD gasman but you'll still be doing the same ****. I had seen a few RNs training at dental Anes dept during my rotations. I was told that you can make around 200K/yr, $500/visit as a dental Anes.

dentists fall somewhere between nurses and phlebotomists in the pecking order.

My feeling would have been hurt if you weren't a dental student 😀 thought you were a med guy 😀

 

[overseas]

Hi to all ,

I have been reading with great interests ,the various posts here on dental anesthesilogists..I a have a few queries ,regarding ..the scope of dental Anesthesiologists in the near future..Is this a promising field ,in the years to come..
i am from India. Could anyone,explain , the pathway to a Dental Anesthesiologist..??

i mean ,is it necessary that we pass the NDBE both parts & then can we directly apply for a Residency in Dental Anesthesia..?
Which Universities accept Resdients In Dental ANesthesia..?
Hope , my queries will be answered..
thanks & regards ,

joe..

 

[OzDDS]

is it necessary that we pass the NDBE both parts & then can we directly apply for a Residency in Dental Anesthesia..?
Which Universities accept Resdients In Dental ANesthesia..?
Hope , my queries will be answered..
thanks & regards ,

joe..

http://www.adba.org/programs.html

Here is a list of some of the Anesthesiology programs for dental graduates. I'm not sure if they accept foreign dental graduates but it can't hurt to contact the programs individually and find out. Best of luck to you.

 

[OzDDS]

http://www.asdahq.org/training.html

 

[OzDDS]

This is interesting.. scroll down.

Lyle Kirson, D.D.S. Specialty: Cardiothoracic Anesthesia


http://www.uchsc.edu/anes/ResInfo/staff.shtml

 

[OzDDS]

Here is a general anesthesiology residency.. if you scroll down to the bottom, there is a message from the Cheif resident (a dentist). 🙂

http://www.metrohealth.org/Clinical/Anes/resident.asp#Residents

 

[OzDDS]

I don't know how it is in other states, but in Kansas I believe that DDS oral surgeons do not have hospital rights and that is where oral surgeons make money. I would assume that it is the same for anes. DDS. This is what a ER doc told me anyway.

I beg to differ, actually most oral and maxillofacial surgeons make most of their money in private surgery centers doing wisdom teeth extractions and dental implants because the patients pay cash for them and they reimburse way much more than doing craniofacial trauma in the ER. Secondly, whether an Oral and Maxillofacial surgeon has an MD or not he is just able to attain hospital rights if he needs to treat patients with more anesthesia than just IV consious sedation. Thirdly, a DDS without an MD just like a DO can do training in anesthesia and .. YES even in Kansas is eligible for Hospital rights.. and is viewed by the law no differently than an MD or DO anesthesiologist.

The Kansas Court System itself has this to say...

"the scope of practice of a D.D.S. anesthesiologist is limited by K.S.A. 65-2899 to the practice of anesthesiology but has no restrictions which would otherwise make it different from the practice of anesthesiology by a D.O. or M.D. Accordingly, for the reasons discussed in answer to your first question, it is our opinion that a D.D.S. anesthesiologist has the same supervisory qualifications as a D.O. or M.D. anesthesiologist when engaged in the practice of anesthesiology."

http://www.kscourts.org/ksag/opinions/1998/1998-057.htm