Dental School and Orthodontics

[brad504]

Can someone enlighten me on how difficult or competitive it is to go into orthodontics or oral surgery after dental school. I have shadowed densists, orthodontists, and a maxillofacial surgeon. Oral surgeon is ideally what I would like to get into, with orthodontics being my second choice. I honestly don't know how I would feel about becoming a dentist From what I understand, If you go to dental school, you better be prepared for the fact that dentistry may be your only option. My ultimate goal is to become a oral surgeon or orthodontist. Give it too me straight--do i need to be in the top 5% of the class or something ridiculous like that?

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[MoralDecay]

Can someone enlighten me on how difficult or competitive it is to go into orthodontics or oral surgery after dental school. I have shadowed densists, orthodontists, and a maxillofacial surgeon. Oral surgeon is ideally what I would like to get into, with orthodontics being my second choice. I honestly don't know how I would feel about becoming a dentist From what I understand, If you go to dental school, you better be prepared for the fact that dentistry may be your only option. My ultimate goal is to become a oral surgeon or orthodontist. Give it too me straight--do i need to be in the top 5% of the class or something ridiculous like that?

There are a few factors that determine your success in gaining entry into OMFS or ortho (some things more important than others): 1) The dental school you go to. Some schools - you will only stand a chance if you are in the top 5-10 of your class (not top 5-10%, but ranked in the top 5-10). Others - you don't need to be in the top 10. 2) The number of externships/internships you've done 3) Quality of reference letters 4) Which school/program/hospital you want to get into; similarly, whether or not you want to do a 4-year or 6-year OMFS program 4) Strength of letter of intent 3)

 

[Jackson-Ave-Dental]

Can someone enlighten me on how difficult or competitive it is to go into orthodontics or oral surgery after dental school. I have shadowed densists, orthodontists, and a maxillofacial surgeon. Oral surgeon is ideally what I would like to get into, with orthodontics being my second choice. I honestly don't know how I would feel about becoming a dentist From what I understand, If you go to dental school, you better be prepared for the fact that dentistry may be your only option. My ultimate goal is to become a oral surgeon or orthodontist. Give it too me straight--do i need to be in the top 5% of the class or something ridiculous like that?

That's because orthodontists and oral surgeons are dentists too...

 

[AlbinoPolarBear]

That's because orthodontists and oral surgeons are dentists too...

Nice.

OP: Most of us are gonna be general dentists. So be fully prepared to become one. Even if you got top 5-10 in your class, there's no guarantee that you will get into the residency. It's extremely competitive.

 

[katwoman1688]

Can someone enlighten me on how difficult or competitive it is to go into orthodontics or oral surgery after dental school. I have shadowed densists, orthodontists, and a maxillofacial surgeon. Oral surgeon is ideally what I would like to get into, with orthodontics being my second choice. I honestly don't know how I would feel about becoming a dentist From what I understand, If you go to dental school, you better be prepared for the fact that dentistry may be your only option. My ultimate goal is to become a oral surgeon or orthodontist. Give it too me straight--do i need to be in the top 5% of the class or something ridiculous like that?

Its veryyyyy competitive to specialize in either of those two specialities - they are the most wanted fields and thus you have to be the best of your class. If its a non-ranked school you better be getting honors if its p/f/h; at ranked schools (after speaking to orthodontists in the admissions committees) they say ideally top 5 of your class, but still possible for top 15 for ortho. Each program only accepts 1 or 2 - and you need research, good letters of recs, good externships, and scores on the gRE. For OMFS - my dad is the acting chair of admissions for Cook County in IL and he says its also very competitive. There are only two spots in his program for a ton of people who apply, and aside from having all the credentials you also have to be a good match to the program. So yes, shoot for the top 5-10% and still be prepared to be a general dentist if not

 

[UltimateHombre]

Furthermore, with the boards going pass/fail.... OMS residencies are requiring their applicants to take the NBME (boards for med students), so they can have something to better compare applicants. Other residencies may or may not have another exam as well, like the GRE.

To the OP... you do realize that GPs can also do extractions and implants like private practice OMS do right? And they can also get certified in invisalign and do minor orthodontic work, like Orthos do.

It is funny to me that you have so much interest in these fields alone... they are so different and on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as dentistry is concerned.

 

[NonTradHopeful]

Furthermore, with the boards going pass/fail.... OMS residencies are requiring their applicants to take the NBME (boards for med students), so they can have something to better compare applicants. Other residencies may or may not have another exam as well, like the GRE.

To the OP... you do realize that GPs can also do extractions and implants like private practice OMS do right? And they can also get certified in invisalign and do minor orthodontic work, like Orthos do.

It is funny to me that you have so much interest in these fields alone... they are so different and on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as dentistry is concerned.

Just an FYI...NBME is not the exam. The medical board exam is the USMLE. The NBME is the medical board that administers the USMLE.

However, the NBDE is the exam that dental students must take to be licensed.

I know it's a technicality, but I just thought you'd like to know.

 

[AlbinoPolarBear]

Just an FYI...NBME is not the exam. The medical board exam is the USMLE. The NBME is the medical board that administers the USMLE.

However, the NBDE is the exam that dental students must take to be licensed.

I know it's a technicality, but I just thought you'd like to know.

NBME administers the USLME along with other exams.

The one the dental students must take is the NBME Comprehensive Basic Exam (CBSE).
It's a diagnostic test for medical students taking USMLE step 1. And it's half the length.

It has strong correlations to USMLE success, and can be used to identify early on med students who are gonna fail the USMLE.

 

[UltimateHombre]

Just an FYI...NBME is not the exam. The medical board exam is the USMLE. The NBME is the medical board that administers the USMLE.

However, the NBDE is the exam that dental students must take to be licensed.

I know it's a technicality, but I just thought you'd like to know.

Thanks for the clarification... i appreciate it. All i know about it is from this thread and it seemed like everyone kept referring to it as the NBME.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=768261

 

[dentalWorks]

Can someone enlighten me on how difficult or competitive it is to go into orthodontics or oral surgery after dental school. I have shadowed densists, orthodontists, and a maxillofacial surgeon. Oral surgeon is ideally what I would like to get into, with orthodontics being my second choice. I honestly don't know how I would feel about becoming a dentist From what I understand, If you go to dental school, you better be prepared for the fact that dentistry may be your only option. My ultimate goal is to become a oral surgeon or orthodontist. Give it too me straight--do i need to be in the top 5% of the class or something ridiculous like that?

I am not exper by any means, but I have spent some time talking to oral surgeons and residents and the consensus seems to be.... well..... you can get into it (even with a less-than desirable class rank) but you'll be wasting years doing non-paid internships at a particular program until they finally decide to take you in.... Generally tho, being between 1-20% of your class rank is a good rank for this specialty. Since now they will be requiring the CBSE, chances are, blowing this test out of the waters will make you look competitive even with a bad rank..... The only program with that strategy is, CBSE is not an easy test, it wasn't designed for dental students, I believe its like a mock-up exam given to medical students to see how they'll perform on USMLE step 1.

As far as ortho goes, I dunno whats considered "strong" but, anything between 1-15% (Im guessing here) is strong. Dental school is not an easy place, you don't just go in and walk out being top 15 (or better) of the class without some SERIOUS work ethic.... And the funny thing is, the difference between a top 1st or top 10 of the class is like 3.9 vs 3.82 GPA lol

 

[uva09]

Historically, more people have applied to Orthodontics programs than to Oral Surgery programs through Match. However, there are more postions for Orthodontics programs. It could be said that the two are fairly equal in terms of competitiveness at face value. Proposed and recent changes to the application process may change things of course.

For Oral Surgery in 2010:

387 Applicants Participated | 216 Positions Offered | 55.8% Rate


For Orthodontics in 2010:

485 Applicants Participated | 269 Positions Offered | 55.5% Rate

Now, I am by no means downplaying the difficulty of gaining acceptance into these or any other post-graduate program - but, these numbers should offer some semblance of hope for those aspiring towards Orthodontics or Oral Surgery. We can speculate that those that applied were in the top 10% in terms of grades and board scores, but that still would be a generalization. The fact of the matter is folks will get in every year who are not at the very top academically. There are a multitude of other considerations at play. By and large, there are some fairly accepted standards. However, as shown, for those applying, you have a better than 50% chance of matching and getting a position somewhere - and that doesn't even include the unfilled positions for which you don't have to participate in the Match process at all.

 

[uva09]

And just for fun and to expand upon the discusion, the numbers look even better when compared to some of the most competitive Allopathic Medical Residency Programs.


For Dermatology PGY-1 in 2011:

186 Applicants Participated | 28 Positions Offered | 15.1% Rate

For Radiology PGY-1 in 2011:

737 Applicants Participated | 134 Positions Offered | 18.2% Rate

 

[UltimateHombre]

For Oral Surgery in 2010:

387 Applicants Participated | 216 Positions Offered | 55.8% Rate


For Orthodontics in 2010:

485 Applicants Participated | 269 Positions Offered | 55.5% Rate

Thanks for the info. Where did you obtain the information?

 

[AlbinoPolarBear]

Thanks for the info. Where did you obtain the information?

I know you didn't ask me, but..

http://www.natmatch.com/dentres/stats/2011sumstats.htm

 

[UltimateHombre]

I know you didn't ask me, but..

http://www.natmatch.com/dentres/stats/2011sumstats.htm

Thanks!! That is an awesome site! I wonder why the endo match results aren't reported? I know they participate in the match, but is there a lot of non-match programs or something?

 

[Member902507]

http://www.natmatch.com/dentres/stats/2011sumstats.htm

So I'm confused...these stats are significantly different than the ones found on this booklet page: http://www.ada.org/sections/professionalResources/pdfs/survey_advanced_ed.pdf

On page 21 of the booklet (page 30 of the PDF), it says that for Ortho, for example, 10,647 applications for a 1st year enrollment of 355.

Can someone shed some light on this or maybe clear up the confusion I have? Because that would change the 55% stats of getting into Ortho significantly, but I may be overlooking something here

 

[HaverfoodsDDS]

So I'm confused...these stats are significantly different than the ones found on this booklet page: http://www.ada.org/sections/professionalResources/pdfs/survey_advanced_ed.pdf

On page 21 of the booklet (page 30 of the PDF), it says that for Ortho, for example, 10,647 applications for a 1st year enrollment of 355.

Can someone shed some light on this or maybe clear up the confusion I have? Because that would change the 55% stats of getting into Ortho significantly, but I may be overlooking something here

That total is for APPLICATIONS, not APPLICANTS......One applicant can submit multiple applications to different programs and that is where you see the big difference.

 

[DancingBull]

Can someone enlighten me on how difficult or competitive it is to go into orthodontics or oral surgery after dental school. I have shadowed densists, orthodontists, and a maxillofacial surgeon. Oral surgeon is ideally what I would like to get into, with orthodontics being my second choice. I honestly don't know how I would feel about becoming a dentist From what I understand, If you go to dental school, you better be prepared for the fact that dentistry may be your only option. My ultimate goal is to become a oral surgeon or orthodontist. Give it too me straight--do i need to be in the top 5% of the class or something ridiculous like that?

Don't go to dental school.

 

[DenTony11235]

There are a few factors that determine your success in gaining entry into OMFS or ortho (some things more important than others): 1) The dental school you go to. Some schools - you will only stand a chance if you are in the top 5-10 of your class (not top 5-10%, but ranked in the top 5-10). Others - you don't need to be in the top 10.

Can someone explain to me like I'm 5 how the school you go to determines your chances of landing specialty residencies? Aside from Pass/Fail schools.

 

[NDPitch]

It doesn't. You MIGHT have a slight edge if you go to an Ivy League school. But it is a very slight edge and, in my opinion, no where near worth the cost of attendance. Hard work in any dental school can get you into the desired residency. But if that residency you want is something like oral surgery, be prepared to give up sleep for 4 years of your life, haha.

 

[Screwtape]

It doesn't. You MIGHT have a slight edge if you go to an Ivy League school. But it is a very slight edge and, in my opinion, no where near worth the cost of attendance. Hard work in any dental school can get you into the desired residency. But if that residency you want is something like oral surgery, be prepared to give up sleep for 4 years of your life, haha.

I dunno man, I feel like i always hear that everyone from Harvard can specialize....

 

[Teeths]

Sorry for semi-hijacking your thread-

but since we're on the top of specializing, does anyone have a general idea of where you'd have to be for a pedo residency? Whenever I tell someone I'm interested in pediatrics, I get these looks 😕 lol but I work in a pedo office and I absolutely love it, there's never a boring day. I know dentists, advisers, adcom members, and everyone in between say to not limit yourself or go in with a heavy weight on a specialization because you'll change your mind 5 times before it's all over, but I really feel as though I'm going to end up as a general dentist or pedo dentist. I can't see myself doing any other specialization.

Also, I agree with one of the above posts that if you can't see yourself as a general dentist, don't waste your time, money, and hard work going to dental school. You never know what will happen and if the specialties don't pan out for you.. you would be 'stuck' being a general dentist and if that thought seems bad to you, maybe reconsider some things?

 

[athomas]

I dunno man, I feel like i always hear that everyone from Harvard can specialize....

I think like 25 of last year's grads specialized. Their class size is only 35, so that's a huge percentage.

 

[Silent Cool]

I dunno man, I feel like i always hear that everyone from Harvard can specialize....

Yes, going to Harvard does essentially guarantee the opportunity to specialize. Not everyone coming out of Harvard wants to, though.

 

[NDPitch]

Be careful with advertised specialization rates. Schools that tout high specialization rates, such as Harvard and UConn, often include GPR and AEGD residencies into specialization rates.

Also keep in mind that it is more the student and not the school. If you get into Harvard, you are most likely pretty damn brilliant, have a high GPA, a high DAT, etc. Your chances of specializing were high to begin with because your likelihood to succeed in a demanding curriculum were greater than the average student that didn't end up getting into an Ivy school. We all know that Ivy schools take only the cream of the crop.

Still, ignoring the fact that people in Ivy schools are inherently better at retaining didactic information, there can be an edge because of school name. I still think this edge is very slight, and not remotely worth the extra money.

 

[goffdent]

Historically, more people have applied to Orthodontics programs than to Oral Surgery programs through Match. However, there are more postions for Orthodontics programs. It could be said that the two are fairly equal in terms of competitiveness at face value. Proposed and recent changes to the application process may change things of course.

For Oral Surgery in 2010:

387 Applicants Participated | 216 Positions Offered | 55.8% Rate


For Orthodontics in 2010:

485 Applicants Participated | 269 Positions Offered | 55.5% Rate

Now, I am by no means downplaying the difficulty of gaining acceptance into these or any other post-graduate program - but, these numbers should offer some semblance of hope for those aspiring towards Orthodontics or Oral Surgery. We can speculate that those that applied were in the top 10% in terms of grades and board scores, but that still would be a generalization. The fact of the matter is folks will get in every year who are not at the very top academically. There are a multitude of other considerations at play. By and large, there are some fairly accepted standards. However, as shown, for those applying, you have a better than 50% chance of matching and getting a position somewhere - and that doesn't even include the unfilled positions for which you don't have to participate in the Match process at all.

With numbers like that, how are you not worried to go into that field? Orthodontists are oversaturating the market. I know some that were having a hard time finding a job this past year that was full time.