Dentist unemployment rate

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fishyfishy

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OK, I am starting to hear quite a few D4's and new dentists talking about how difficult it is to find an associateship. Some are talking about not finding a job for months! The few jobs that seem to be available are paying 50-80K which is not enough to service a student loan, or barely enough. Anyone else seeing this?? I am hearing this in California and New York. Makes me queasy just thinking about having 300K of loans and not being able to find a job. I am also hearing that in addition to GP dentists, a few specialists are also finding a first job hard to locate (especially orthos that are finishing residency).

What are you guys hearing?

I know that the obvious plan is to move to bumtuckville and service the rural areas, but if there are so many dentists that start moving into these lower populated area, its just going to get saturated too, right? Especially when the pt: dentist ratio will be smaller per mile than urban or suburban areas.

Somebody set me straight.

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Yeah that's what I've heard. Very tough in CA right now. Not just in LA but even places like Fresno and Lancaster, which traditionally are less desirable. To be perfectly honest, if I was a GP coming out of dental school I would seriously consider leaving CA and going to a better market because it doesn't look like it's improving anytime soon.
 
OK, I am starting to hear quite a few D4's and new dentists talking about how difficult it is to find an associateship. Some are talking about not finding a job for months! The few jobs that seem to be available are paying 50-80K which is not enough to service a student loan, or barely enough. Anyone else seeing this?? I am hearing this in California and New York. Makes me queasy just thinking about having 300K of loans and not being able to find a job. I am also hearing that in addition to GP dentists, a few specialists are also finding a first job hard to locate (especially orthos that are finishing residency).

What are you guys hearing?

I know that the obvious plan is to move to bumtuckville and service the rural areas, but if there are so many dentists that start moving into these lower populated area, its just going to get saturated too, right? Especially when the pt: dentist ratio will be smaller per mile than urban or suburban areas.

Somebody set me straight.

There are plenty of jobs available in dentistry right now. Will those jobs necessarily be in the location where you'd IDEALLY want to practice?? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Just because you think you might not want to live in some other area, doesn't mean that either you can't, or heaven forbid might actually find you like living there, and it's not a bad place to raise a family once you've been there
 
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Bumtuckville? If Bumtuckville means anywhere not in Manhattan or LA, you're screwed pal. Just take you 50-80k and do what you can with it. Or you could grow a pair and realize that just because a place isn't a generic setting for movies, doesn't mean it sucks to live there. There's tons of jobs in Dallas, TX and living here is pretty damn awesome.
 
I am from Michigan and I have not heard this.

My sister's friend finished dental school back in 2005 and got a job right away.... if I remember correctly, she started off with 120 (or 130k)

And a far cousin of mine finished dental school back in 2008, same story. He got an associate job at a local dental company (they have like 150 offices between michigan, ohio and indiana) and they started him at around the same rate (about 120k).

Both dentists I speak about are making much more than that right now, the girl just opened her private practice about a year ago and my sister tells me shes doing very well..... and my cousin is working 2 jobs, and my understanding is, he is pulling home alot more than 120k. Last time I spoke to him, he is saving money to buy a practice

Obviously I am not showing 2 examples as a proof but the many dentists I speak to around here seem to believe there are alot of jobs for dentists..... If you look around, you shouldn't struggle to find one
 
Bumtuckville? If Bumtuckville means anywhere not in Manhattan or LA, you're screwed pal. Just take you 50-80k and do what you can with it. Or you could grow a pair and realize that just because a place isn't a generic setting for movies, doesn't mean it sucks to live there. There's tons of jobs in Dallas, TX and living here is pretty damn awesome.

Do you have inside knowledge on dental jobs being a med student? Do you call everyone pal? What does growing a pair mean? I guess they will let anyone be a moderator on here. Maybe your med school should offer you one more semester of professionalism.

To answer the original question... there are jobs available all over the country. I believe the reality of dentistry now is that you will have to relocate at some point to find a more desirable job. I am in Colorado. I own a practice. Colorado is becoming very saturated especially on the front range near Denver but even the rural towns that I am in are overpopulated with dentists. I worked for a corporation in Oregon for a year right of school. They ran medicaid mills all over the state. The pay was decent. You can always find corporate mill jobs.

If I could do it all over again I would find a very rural underserved area and either buy a practice or start one and work it for 5-10 years. I would then save all my money and move back closer to home for the rest of my career.

Dentistry has become very competitive and with the announcement of more and more private dental schools opening up it will only get worse. Find a decent paying job out of school and get your feet wet. Then go to a lower saturated area and buy or start a very low overhead office. Low overhead is winning the race right now.
 
Do you have inside knowledge on dental jobs being a med student? Do you call everyone pal? What does growing a pair mean? I guess they will let anyone be a moderator on here. Maybe your med school should offer you one more semester of professionalism.

To answer the original question... there are jobs available all over the country. I believe the reality of dentistry now is that you will have to relocate at some point to find a more desirable job. I am in Colorado. I own a practice. Colorado is becoming very saturated especially on the front range near Denver but even the rural towns that I am in are overpopulated with dentists. I worked for a corporation in Oregon for a year right of school. They ran medicaid mills all over the state. The pay was decent. You can always find corporate mill jobs.

If I could do it all over again I would find a very rural underserved area and either buy a practice or start one and work it for 5-10 years. I would then save all my money and move back closer to home for the rest of my career.

Dentistry has become very competitive and with the announcement of more and more private dental schools opening up it will only get worse. Find a decent paying job out of school and get your feet wet. Then go to a lower saturated area and buy or start a very low overhead office. Low overhead is winning the race right now.

It's the internet, bro. The concept of "professionalism" doesn't exist.

BTW Armorshell is kind of a big deal around here. He's an OMFS resident in one of the best programs in the country and has a lot of good advice.
 
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It's the internet, bro. The concept of "professionalism" doesn't exist.

BTW Armorshell is kind of a big deal around here. He's an OMFS resident in one of the best programs in the country and has a lot of good advice.

Thanks "bro". So because he is an OMFS resident that makes him kind of big deal? Please. The original question was about finding a job as a dentist. What does an OMFS resident know about that? Not much. I do. I've lived the experience. The original question was a valid one. Professionalism can exist online.
 
Thanks "bro". So because he is an OMFS resident that makes him kind of big deal? Please. The original question was about finding a job as a dentist. What does an OMFS resident know about that? Not much. I do. I've lived the experience. The original question was a valid one. Professionalism can exist online.


Professionalism can exist online, and so can humor. Pretty sure this guy is a d-bag
 
Armoshell has offered a lot of good advice but I would trust K2 Dental more on this topic. I agree with K2’s comment about the low overhead. By keeping the overhead low, you can keep more of what you earn…and this is how my sister (a GP) and I (an orthodontist) are doing OK in the saturated market of Southern California.

I intentionally avoid buying expensive furniture for my office because I don’t want the patients who walk into my office think this is a high-end expensive practice. Due to the tough economy, less people seek orthodontic treatment at state-of-the art facilities and more people go to simple offices like mine because of the reasonable fees. The key is to keep the overhead low. My smallest office is 990 sf and my biggest office is only 1400 sf. Many orthodontists have 5-6 FT employees. I only have 3 FT employees.
 
Its still amazing that the complaints about dental jobs and compensation seem to always come from NYC or Cali. I dont think as low of overhead as possible is the answer. I thinks its really about the location and being smart with your purchases. If you brand your office early as the "no frills inexpensive gig" its hard to escape that brand later in the future without several more years of rebranding. Now, if no frills, cheap furniture, diptank radiographs is no big deal, than there are probably more locations you can open up shop. However, I would recommend researching locations and demographics before worrying about overhead. There are some nice rural locations out there where you could live close to a big city and make a killing.
 
Its still amazing that the complaints about dental jobs and compensation seem to always come from NYC or Cali. I dont think as low of overhead as possible is the answer.
In my opinion, it is the answer. Why do dental schools have no problem getting patients? Why do people go there to get treatment even when they know it takes a dental student 3 hours to fill a tooth? They go there because the fees are reasonable.
If you brand your office early as the "no frills inexpensive gig" its hard to escape that brand later in the future without several more years of rebranding.
Oh, I plan to keep this type of practice setting until I retire. I choose to treat the type of patients that most orthodontists deny to treat….the patients with the parents who mowe my lawn, who wash my car, who clean my house, who baby sit my kids. I would rather see 80 of these type of patients in a day than treating 15-20 patients who demand the Cadillac type of service. This is why I can squeeze all of my patients into a 12 day/month work schedule (4 hours a day) and I still don’t hear the complain from the patients that I provide poor services. The parents rarely go to the back to ask me questions because they trust what I do for their kids.
Now, if no frills, cheap furniture, diptank radiographs is no big deal, than there are probably more locations you can open up shop.
I still use dip tank at one of my offices and I have no problem with that. Why? Because I don’t take X rays and develop them…my assistant does. Just like the docs who own high end practices, I still get to do what I like to do most…diagnose and treatment plan.

None of my 3 offices is located in good locations….and neither is my sister’s office. I don’t advertise. I don’t have a website. I just let my existing patients do the advertisement for me by telling their friends and relatives how affordable my fees are.
However, I would recommend researching locations and demographics before worrying about overhead. There are some nice rural locations out there where you could live close to a big city and make a killing.
Who would want to live in rural areas? In CA, I can take my kids to Disneyland anytime I want to. I can enjoy the authentic Vietnamese, Thai, Chinese, Mexican foods on a regular basis. I can lease the new German cars every 2-3 years without having to worry what others (especially the patients) think. What’s the point of making a lot of more money in rural areas and not being able to enjoy these conveniences?
 
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Who would want to live in rural areas? In CA, I can take my kids to Disneyland anytime I want to. I can enjoy the authentic Vietnamese, Thai, Chinese, Mexican foods on a regular basis. I can lease the new German cars every 2-3 years without having to worry what others (especially the patients) think. What’s the point of making a lot of more money in rural areas and not being able to enjoy these conveniences?

Different strokes for different folks. Out in a rural area you can walk out your back door and shoot on your own private rifle range. You have the freedom to own livestock, hundreds or thousands of acres and never worry about the crime rates or gang life encroachment. The higher income and lower cost of living mean that you can park a Ferrari in the six-car garage of your estate instead of leasing a Bimmer or Benz. Does that mean rural America is better than SoCal? Depends on who you ask.
 
Its still amazing that the complaints about dental jobs and compensation seem to always come from NYC or Cali. I dont think as low of overhead as possible is the answer. I thinks its really about the location and being smart with your purchases. If you brand your office early as the "no frills inexpensive gig" its hard to escape that brand later in the future without several more years of rebranding. Now, if no frills, cheap furniture, diptank radiographs is no big deal, than there are probably more locations you can open up shop. However, I would recommend researching locations and demographics before worrying about overhead. There are some nice rural locations out there where you could live close to a big city and make a killing.

my sister says the same exact thing.... Rural areas about 1 hour away from detroit. She says there is some serious cash to be made if one opens an office there.
 
Its still amazing that the complaints about dental jobs and compensation seem to always come from NYC or Cali. I dont think as low of overhead as possible is the answer. I thinks its really about the location and being smart with your purchases. If you brand your office early as the "no frills inexpensive gig" its hard to escape that brand later in the future without several more years of rebranding. Now, if no frills, cheap furniture, diptank radiographs is no big deal, than there are probably more locations you can open up shop. However, I would recommend researching locations and demographics before worrying about overhead. There are some nice rural locations out there where you could live close to a big city and make a killing.

Is there any way to find what cities or areas of the country are most conducive to a successful practice? Like some sort of resource that provides the ratio of dentists to the rest of the population and other important factors?
 
I am glad to see you are so open minded K2. If you couldn't tell, I was being facetious. You picked out a few words of a paragraph that armorshell posted. Yes, they were somewhat harsh, but no one but you had an issue with his comments. If you look at everything he stated, not just the "grow a pair" and " you're screwed pal", you could actually tell his comment was actually useful. He was stating if you only plan on living in NYC or LA, then you are just gonig to have to deal with the fact that there is massive competition and you'll have to deal with the low salary. Otherwise, if you can live outside these overly populated places, there are plenty of places to practice where you can make a good living.

Plus, you don't have to have experienced dentistry to know the status of dentistry in an area or know when people are whining about their situation when we all know there are options they can choose that they aren't willing to make sacrifices for.

They must let anyone moderate? Armorshell has been here for quite a while and has helped a lot of people. Personally, I too often feel they let just anyone be a member of SDN when they obviously have issues. Maybe you should look in the mirror!

Do you have inside knowledge on dental jobs being a med student? Do you call everyone pal? What does growing a pair mean? I guess they will let anyone be a moderator on here. Maybe your med school should offer you one more semester of professionalism.

To answer the original question... there are jobs available all over the country. I believe the reality of dentistry now is that you will have to relocate at some point to find a more desirable job. I am in Colorado. I own a practice. Colorado is becoming very saturated especially on the front range near Denver but even the rural towns that I am in are overpopulated with dentists. I worked for a corporation in Oregon for a year right of school. They ran medicaid mills all over the state. The pay was decent. You can always find corporate mill jobs.

If I could do it all over again I would find a very rural underserved area and either buy a practice or start one and work it for 5-10 years. I would then save all my money and move back closer to home for the rest of my career.

Dentistry has become very competitive and with the announcement of more and more private dental schools opening up it will only get worse. Find a decent paying job out of school and get your feet wet. Then go to a lower saturated area and buy or start a very low overhead office. Low overhead is winning the race right now.
 
Is there any way to find what cities or areas of the country are most conducive to a successful practice? Like some sort of resource that provides the ratio of dentists to the rest of the population and other important factors?

Some state dental associations post this info online. You just need to look for it. Or you can contact they directly.

Here is a site that you can go to that will help you locate the underserved area that is very useful especially if you are looking to do or don't mind doing rural dentistry or dentistry in a smaller city.

http://hpsafind.hrsa.gov/HPSASearch.aspx
 
Is the job market as bad for specialists?
 
Plus, you don't have to have experienced dentistry to know the status of dentistry in an area or know when people are whining about their situation when we all know there are options they can choose that they aren't willing to make sacrifices for.

I can't tell you the number of times people from Cali and NY have come on SDN saying "I can't find a job" or "it's too competitive" blah blah blah....

Of course it is when you go to the most saturated areas in the US. It's not "desirable" to live in a smaller rural area because......there are lots of new patients and waiting lists for hygeine? There is less competition?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you were to open up a small business selling cakes, would you open it up in the LA suburbs where there is a cake shop on every corner? Of course not, too much competition, unless you have one hell of a cake (product) to make and can somehow outmarket, and underprice your competitors. Simple economics.
 
Is the job market as bad for specialists?

Lol, the job market isn't bad for dentist unless you move to saturated areas. don't make broad assumptions like that.

I wouldn't really know about specialists, but I would assume the same thing is true.
 
Is the job market as bad for specialists?

Interestingly, it's gotten better for me as a moonlighting resident. GPs want to keep 50% of their third molar production so I get a lot more work. It's an excellent financial resource for the GP. I guess that means there are less referrals going out to private practice OMSs. Not sure if it's a noticeable difference. Same thing can be said for ortho, perio, and endo. You have more in house specialists, which is good for those who are willing to travel and bad for those who depend on referrals.
 
I am glad to see you are so open minded K2. If you couldn't tell, I was being facetious. You picked out a few words of a paragraph that armorshell posted. Yes, they were somewhat harsh, but no one but you had an issue with his comments. If you look at everything he stated, not just the "grow a pair" and " you're screwed pal", you could actually tell his comment was actually useful. He was stating if you only plan on living in NYC or LA, then you are just gonig to have to deal with the fact that there is massive competition and you'll have to deal with the low salary. Otherwise, if you can live outside these overly populated places, there are plenty of places to practice where you can make a good living.

Plus, you don't have to have experienced dentistry to know the status of dentistry in an area or know when people are whining about their situation when we all know there are options they can choose that they aren't willing to make sacrifices for.

They must let anyone moderate? Armorshell has been here for quite a while and has helped a lot of people. Personally, I too often feel they let just anyone be a member of SDN when they obviously have issues. Maybe you should look in the mirror!

I don't see where the original poster was whining. Just asking a very real question. I live in the real world. Times are tough and scary for everyone. Dentistry is not immune from the effects of the economy. I talk to friends everyday who are struggling to pay bills, having to tap into lines of credit to make payroll, etc.. I have had to let 2 employees go this year in an effort to stay afloat. The answer to the OP's question is more than just saying stop whining and move somewhere rural. I live rural. We have had 5 dentists set up offices in this town in the last 3 years. It is not just as simple as saying go somewhere in the middle of nowhere to make money. One of my best friends has a practice in one of the least desirable small towns in Colorado with some of the best ratios for dentistry. He is in a county with only 3 dentists and 25K people to draw from. Even with those numbers, this month will go down as one of the worst that practice has ever had. He will have to lay off employees soon.

Dental students need to acknowledge the reality of the current market both urban and rural.

I still feel my original comments were warranted. There is a better way to help a fellow colleague out then just merely telling them to grow a pair.

I envy you for being in the Navy. You may not get the "real world" experience but coming out of the Navy debt free will put you so far ahead of all of us that are carrying around this student loan debt.

One last point... when I graduated I was scared as hell about paying my bills. I had a hard time finding a good job. I ended up working for a medicaid mill in Oregon practicing in a small 3 op practice in a converted trailer in a town of 1,200 people. The money was great. The work sucked. It allowed me to get my feet wet and eventually buy the practice I have now.
 
Thank you all for your insight, especially those who have provided specifics on personal experiences such as charlestweed, and K2.

Charlestweed: Good to hear that there are some practices thriving in CA. I think the business model you have seems to be very sustainable, and certainly worth learning from.

K2: Interesting to hear about the saturation of Colorado. I agree with your advice about serving a more rural area temporarily then moving to a more ideal location after being more experienced. The only problem is that my fiancee is quite successful in her business (she makes more than an avg specialist does) and she needs to stay near her industry so we'll see who's career wins out lol. Of course if some rural areas are getting saturated too, then it just becomes a matter of choosing the lesser evil...

dentaldawg32: Pay for a market research report for the area that you narrow down that you would like to work in. This applies for any type of business you open up, as it will tell you good statistics in the region such as patient:doctor ratio, the exact number of competitors you have, avg salary for the area to help establish service charges, etc.

For those of you who seemed to have a problem responding with constructive advice, please read my original post again. I was not whining, nor complaining. I did not say that I was not OK with moving to a rural area to practice. It was a simple question asking about the current state of the job market in the experience of the dental professionals here...

I have been personally hearing from my friends (not rumors) looking for jobs in the cities of San Francisco (Bay area in general), Fresno, Sacramento, Middletown, Manhattan, Brooklyn, LA, OC, and SD. So this saturation of dentists is actually quite widespread and not simply confined to traditional areas of ultra high development (many of these places are suburbs on the fringes of cities that have traditionally treated dentists well). Unfortunately, I don't know anyone looking for jobs other than in those two states, so that is why I was asking for people's personal experiences.

I am glad to see you are so open minded K2. If you couldn't tell, I was being facetious. You picked out a few words of a paragraph that armorshell posted. Yes, they were somewhat harsh, but no one but you had an issue with his comments. If you look at everything he stated, not just the "grow a pair" and " you're screwed pal", you could actually tell his comment was actually useful. He was stating if you only plan on living in NYC or LA, then you are just gonig to have to deal with the fact that there is massive competition and you'll have to deal with the low salary. Otherwise, if you can live outside these overly populated places, there are plenty of places to practice where you can make a good living.

Navy, honestly this post is unnecessary to this thread... There is no need to translate armorshell's post, I think all of our reading comprehension is just fine. In comparison to the advice that K2 gave, armorshell barely answered my question giving very little tangible information.

And I was actually quite surprised that he took on such a harsh tone for absolutely no reason (I suppose its possible a pt died on him or something recently). After all, a moderator's job is to be a neutral party, not a superior entity that exudes a sense of arrogance. Of course, more importantly, as dental professionals we are taught to treat people with respect and patience! Again, never once in my post did I say I was not willing to move to bumtuckville.. However, if I did, then I would want to know the rate of saturation that is currently occurring in these places, a question that K2 answered regarding his personal situation.
 
I don't see where the original poster was whining. Just asking a very real question. I live in the real world. Times are tough and scary for everyone. Dentistry is not immune from the effects of the economy. I talk to friends everyday who are struggling to pay bills, having to tap into lines of credit to make payroll, etc.. I have had to let 2 employees go this year in an effort to stay afloat. The answer to the OP's question is more than just saying stop whining and move somewhere rural. I live rural. We have had 5 dentists set up offices in this town in the last 3 years. It is not just as simple as saying go somewhere in the middle of nowhere to make money. One of my best friends has a practice in one of the least desirable small towns in Colorado with some of the best ratios for dentistry. He is in a county with only 3 dentists and 25K people to draw from. Even with those numbers, this month will go down as one of the worst that practice has ever had. He will have to lay off employees soon.

Dental students need to acknowledge the reality of the current market both urban and rural.

I still feel my original comments were warranted. There is a better way to help a fellow colleague out then just merely telling them to grow a pair.

I envy you for being in the Navy. You may not get the "real world" experience but coming out of the Navy debt free will put you so far ahead of all of us that are carrying around this student loan debt.

One last point... when I graduated I was scared as hell about paying my bills. I had a hard time finding a good job. I ended up working for a medicaid mill in Oregon practicing in a small 3 op practice in a converted trailer in a town of 1,200 people. The money was great. The work sucked. It allowed me to get my feet wet and eventually buy the practice I have now.

i know this is a bit off topic, but i'm curious....

how long did you work at the medicaid mill in oregon? did you try to pay down a certain percentage of your loans or did you try to have a certain amount saved before venturing out on your own?

i haven't even started dental school yet, but i would like to get an idea of what others have done once they graduated so that i can get a better idea of what i should do once i graduate. thanks
 
i think one of the biggest misconceptions in dentistry is that if you set up shop in the middle of nowhere you'll be making tons of money. yes there are some areas, but it's not always the case. many people in these rural areas dont have money, dont care about their teeth, and the biggest problem is that there may not be sufficient patients to keep the practice going. you can definitely be successful in those areas, you just have to have a very specific type of practice. it has to be very lean; ie: low overhead. forget all the cosmetic stuff they taught you in dental school; you wont be doing veneers, invisalign, etc. learn to extract teeth (most profitiable procedure in my office, usually takes a few mins, almost no overhead). lots and lots of removable; and every blue moon you'll have a RCT. if you can do all that and keep your OH around 50% you can have a successful practice; however you do need to set up shop in an area that has a decent sized patient pool
 
Thanks "bro". So because he is an OMFS resident that makes him kind of big deal? Please. The original question was about finding a job as a dentist. What does an OMFS resident know about that? Not much. I do. I've lived the experience. The original question was a valid one. Professionalism can exist online.

If I'm a big deal because I have over 6000 posts and I've been around for a while, not because I'm an OMFS resident.

I never said I knew everything about finding a job, but my roommate just got done with his job search, and several of my co-residents and I have been looking at moonlighting jobs, so I know a little bit. I also have classmates and friends in CA, so I think I have a decent prospective of what finding an associate position is like in CA vs. TX.

As far as professionalism, it's an internet message board, and not a bad one at that. SDN is a bastion of internet professionalism compared to most of the web.
 
If I'm a big deal because I have over 6000 posts and I've been around for a while, not because I'm an OMFS resident.

I never said I knew everything about finding a job, but my roommate just got done with his job search, and several of my co-residents and I have been looking at moonlighting jobs, so I know a little bit. I also have classmates and friends in CA, so I think I have a decent prospective of what finding an associate position is like in CA vs. TX.

As far as professionalism, it's an internet message board, and not a bad one at that. SDN is a bastion of internet professionalism compared to most of the web.


:laugh::meanie::laugh::meanie: Armorshell >>>>>> K2 😱:scared:😱:scared:
 
:laugh::meanie::laugh::meanie: Armorshell >>>>>> K2 😱:scared:😱:scared:

??? :poke:

The OP asked a real world question. I gave my real world answer not just a generalized sarcastic response. I'm sure Armorshell is a stud. I disagreed with his approach. I would think this board would appreciate hearing from those of us out in the trenches.
 
THIS ALL THE FAULT OF THE GOV'T...apparently what happened was that in the 70s and 80s, the government thought that there was a shortage of dentists, so it funded schools that would open d-schools...TURNS OUT THERE WAS NO SHORTAGE...and THATS WHY THERE IS A HUGE OVERSUPPLY...DAMN WHENEVER THE GOV'T TRIES TO INTERFERE WITH THE ECONOMY something bad ALWAYS HAPPENs

what is MAKING ME REALLY ANGRY RIGHT NOW😡..is that I STILL KEEP HEARING *****S quote this recent data that there is a shortage of dentists..this so called data is supplied by the gov't and ppl are so dumb,stupid and naive that they believe this data from the gov't..and so now idiots are opening up new dental schools based on this FLAWED AND INACCURATE DATA, they know its flawed they just want to use it to make money

we need the ADA TO LOBBY AGAINST THESE NEW SCHOOLS; THESE NEW SCHOOLS SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY GOV'T FUNDING
 
and just so you know THE OLD DENTISTS ARE NOT RETIRING...this recession will make them POSTPONE THEIR RETIREMENT..so i dont even wanna hear that dumb stat about how 50% of dentists are over 50 yrs old
 
??? :poke:

The OP asked a real world question. I gave my real world answer not just a generalized sarcastic response. I'm sure Armorshell is a stud. I disagreed with his approach. I would think this board would appreciate hearing from those of us out in the trenches.


I don't understand how mine was not a "real world" response. Problems finding employment are almost solely localized to highly saturated, "lifestyle" areas like SoCal, New York, SF Bay, etc... There are plenty of liveable areas in this country where you can easily find solid paying, full time work as a dentist and still be somewhere fun to live.

I guess I just don't understand why people would slave away working 3 different 1 day/week jobs, living off of mom and dad in SF when they could be working full time as an associate at a non-chain office with a mortgage, a 10 year loan repayment scheme, a healthy contribution towards retirement and plenty left over in say, Beaverton, OR.

As far as "being in the trenches", all I'll say is it's not too uncommon for OMFS residents to work part-time as GPs when they're in med school.
 
and just so you know THE OLD DENTISTS ARE NOT RETIRING...this recession will make them POSTPONE THEIR RETIREMENT..so i dont even wanna hear that dumb stat about how 50% of dentists are over 50 yrs old

If they don't retire now, eventually their biochemical processes will and we'll all have cheap practices to buy.
 
THIS ALL THE FAULT OF THE GOV'T...apparently what happened was that in the 70s and 80s, the government thought that there was a shortage of dentists, so it funded schools that would open d-schools...TURNS OUT THERE WAS NO SHORTAGE...and THATS WHY THERE IS A HUGE OVERSUPPLY...DAMN WHENEVER THE GOV'T TRIES TO INTERFERE WITH THE ECONOMY something bad ALWAYS HAPPENs

what is MAKING ME REALLY ANGRY RIGHT NOW😡..is that I STILL KEEP HEARING *****S quote this recent data that there is a shortage of dentists..this so called data is supplied by the gov't and ppl are so dumb,stupid and naive that they believe this data from the gov't..and so now idiots are opening up new dental schools based on this FLAWED AND INACCURATE DATA, they know its flawed they just want to use it to make money

we need the ADA TO LOBBY AGAINST THESE NEW SCHOOLS; THESE NEW SCHOOLS SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY GOV'T FUNDING

The problem with your statement is that most of the new schools right now are private ; 2 in AZ and opening next year the one in Utah. These private schools have found out that they can make a lot of money off of dental students by charging 60-70K /yr for tuition. I agree that we do not need more dental schools. There are people still pushing for new schools at the govt level. I'll take for example UNLV. There was NEVER a need for a dental school in Nevada. State senator Ray Rawson who is a dentist pushed hard to get that school open. He convinced Nevada that it would serve the underserved in rural areas. The dental school was his pet project to try and add to his legacy. The state threw money at the school amid a ton of backlash from the public. To make things worse in Nevada, the Nevada dental board then allowed reciprocity with other states opening the flood gates of new dentists moving in. What you have now in Vegas is an overabundance of dentists in a depressed market. (One of the worst in the nation.) I know from sources in Vegas that 50-100 dental practices have shut down in the last 3 years. My Dad is a BK lawyer in Vegas and he has filed many BKs for dentists lately including dentists who had very very successful practices.

The shortage of dentists was supposed to happen. One of the problems is that the older docs cannot retire. They either lost money in the stock market or they haven't planned well. I know a few in my town that have had to stay open a lot longer than they wanted to for those reasons.
 
There was NEVER a need for a dental school in Nevada. State senator Ray Rawson who is a dentist pushed hard to get that school open. He convinced Nevada that it would serve the underserved in rural areas. The dental school was his pet project to try and add to his legacy. The state threw money at the school amid a ton of backlash from the public.

Are you sure it's Rawson and not Reid? Or did Reid pushed through the 3500 page healthcare reform he never read just to cement his legacy too!?
 
If they don't retire now, eventually their biochemical processes will and we'll all have cheap practices to buy.
Not really! It won’t be cheap since there will be a lot of new grad doctors who will be interested in buying the same office. When I purchased a 30 year old practice 2 years ago, there were at least 3 orthos who tried to make an offer. I had to pay $70-80k more than what this office’s worth.
 
Man this thread is scaring the hell out of me and I'm not even in dental school (yet?) Didn't know the future outlook for dentistry is so bad...
 
Man this thread is scaring the hell out of me and I'm not even in dental school (yet?) Didn't know the future outlook for dentistry is so bad...

It's not- move out of LA/NY and you don't have anything to worry about...
 
All I know is that there is DEFINITELY an oversupply just about everywhere these days. I'm serious, schools like NYU and BU etc graduate HUNDREDS of foreign international students combined yearly, and all these new dental schools opening up. East Carolina in north carolina is opening....there is NO reason to open up a new school particularly in north carolina...why not? Well there are lots of dentists nationwide who would love to move to nroth carolina and practice...why can't/haven't they? Simply because the CITA board exam is brutal. So they don't take it and they don't practice there. Now will opening up a new school instead of accepting reciprocity help things? My friend lives and works in Raleigh and says that places like Raleigh, chapel hill etc are ABSOLUTELY SATURATED. So whoever keeps getting these schools to open is screwing up. Case in point: take a look at what happened to the field of orthodontics with that whole Dr. Lazzarra OEC thing. Right now I am hearing first hand that recently graduated orthodontists are a) having huge difficulties findings jobs in most markets and b) Lucky if they make $800 a day! I have 2 ortho people who have told me the exact same thing. *This is also happening in a HUGE way with pharmacy....just ask any of the myriad of graduates from the ton of new schools that opened up in the last 5 years who are unemployed.😳
 
Are you sure it's Rawson and not Reid? Or did Reid pushed through the 3500 page healthcare reform he never read just to cement his legacy too!?

Rawson was a State Senator in NV.

Reid is a US Senator representing NV.
 
All I know is that there is DEFINITELY an oversupply just about everywhere these days. I'm serious, schools like NYU and BU etc graduate HUNDREDS of foreign international students combined yearly, and all these new dental schools opening up. East Carolina in north carolina is opening....there is NO reason to open up a new school particularly in north carolina...why not? Well there are lots of dentists nationwide who would love to move to nroth carolina and practice...why can't/haven't they? Simply because the CITA board exam is brutal. So they don't take it and they don't practice there. Now will opening up a new school instead of accepting reciprocity help things? My friend lives and works in Raleigh and says that places like Raleigh, chapel hill etc are ABSOLUTELY SATURATED. So whoever keeps getting these schools to open is screwing up. Case in point: take a look at what happened to the field of orthodontics with that whole Dr. Lazzarra OEC thing. Right now I am hearing first hand that recently graduated orthodontists are a) having huge difficulties findings jobs in most markets and b) Lucky if they make $800 a day! I have 2 ortho people who have told me the exact same thing. *This is also happening in a HUGE way with pharmacy....just ask any of the myriad of graduates from the ton of new schools that opened up in the last 5 years who are unemployed.😳
Statistics & Scientific Literature 101, Day 1: the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

I'm starting to realize that there are a lot of otherwise very intelligent people who will simply never be able to wrap their heads around the concept that the known universe extends beyond California and coastal New England.
 
Yep. It's just that simple.

This is true but not totally.

There are many many other places in the USA where dentists are a dime a dozen. Try an obvious one like Salt Lake City or Las Vegas, or how about a less obvious one like Columbus OH or Omaha NE where dental schools put out grads who want to stay in those cities?

Southern CA and NYC are the obvious ground zero for high dentist😛atient ratios, but there are quite a few other difficult markets to be careful of.
 
This is true but not totally.

There are many many other places in the USA where dentists are a dime a dozen. Try an obvious one like Salt Lake City or Las Vegas, or how about a less obvious one like Columbus OH or Omaha NE where dental schools put out grads who want to stay in those cities?

Southern CA and NYC are the obvious ground zero for high dentist😛atient ratios, but there are quite a few other difficult markets to be careful of.

Thats what I mean as well.

O, and those "east coast new england" locations I seem to only know about are pumping out their new graduates ACROSS the country. Those University of Omaha and Idaho school of dentistry type locations (i actually don't even know if those two have dschools) usually churn out limited numbers of students, most of which are from instate and end up staying in said state upon graduation.
 
This is true but not totally.

There are many many other places in the USA where dentists are a dime a dozen. Try an obvious one like Salt Lake City or Las Vegas, or how about a less obvious one like Columbus OH or Omaha NE where dental schools put out grads who want to stay in those cities?

Southern CA and NYC are the obvious ground zero for high dentist😛atient ratios, but there are quite a few other difficult markets to be careful of.

If you read K2's other posts in this thread, I think you'll see that he was being sarcastic. 😉
 
Here's a crazy thought to ponder...

How can a pre-dent rationalize just about any reason for one more slot to open up at any dental school in America if it means the he/she gets it, but throw a fit about the huge number of dentists being cranked out later?

Dentistry is a business that must deal with the same adversities and competition that any other market segment faces. While I understand the concerns that are being raised, I get the impression that some people want little monopolies handed to them. Careful what you wish for, because it's a pretty short step from asking the government to control graduation numbers to having the government take control of dentistry...
 
^ dude we're not asking the government to control graduation rates; were telling it to stop funding schools when there is no need; in essence: do nothing

THIS IS THE SITUATION: these schools want to open new dental schools..the schools have a couple of powerful people with money to pay off/give perks to the politicians; the politicians are then able to secure government (taxpayer) funds for these schools..to cover-up the fraud the government knowingly publishes FALSE data saying there is a shortage of dentists (this is EXACTLY what happened in the 70s and 80s), even when there obviously is none..who wins? the politicians and the private school which will charge 90K tuition!


WHY ARE WE TICKED ABOUT NEW D-SCHOOLS??..because these new d-schools are able to charge high tuition (using tax-payer fund to fund their school, without giving money back to the taxpayers) and the only people who would pay this high tutition are the IDIOTS WHO COULDN'T GET IN TO A NORMAL SCHOOL lol:laugh:......WE CANNOT HAVE DRUNK IDIOTS WORKING ON PPL'S TEETH..ITS A DANGER TO OUR PATIENTS!

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN IDIOTS ARE IN DENTISTRY? The fate of medicine...idiots screw ppl's teeth (and lives) and this becomes a new attraction for the trial lawyers, who will in turn pay off politicians to pass new laws screwing dentists malpractice ..

ALSO THE hospital-groups (who pay off the politicians) start acting like, "oh look these private dentists are so risky and inept, they need to be under the control of a hospital; there is too much infection,etc in a dentist's office, the important dental work (ie, the lucrative dental work) should be in a hospital setting to be safer"...so dentists end up getting screwed and under the mercy of a corrupt hospital..DON'T BELIEVE ME?? ITS HAPPENING TO MEDICINE AND ambulatory surgical centers RIGHT NOW!!
 
^ dude we're not asking the government to control graduation rates; were telling it to stop funding schools when there is no need; in essence: do nothing

THIS IS THE SITUATION: these schools want to open new dental schools..the schools have a couple of powerful people with money to pay off/give perks to the politicians; the politicians are then able to secure government (taxpayer) funds for these schools..to cover-up the fraud the government knowingly publishes FALSE data saying there is a shortage of dentists (this is EXACTLY what happened in the 70s and 80s), even when there obviously is none..who wins? the politicians and the private school which will charge 90K tuition!


WHY ARE WE TICKED ABOUT NEW D-SCHOOLS??..because these new d-schools are able to charge high tuition (using tax-payer fund to fund their school, without giving money back to the taxpayers) and the only people who would pay this high tutition are the IDIOTS WHO COULDN'T GET IN TO A NORMAL SCHOOL lol:laugh:......WE CANNOT HAVE DRUNK IDIOTS WORKING ON PPL'S TEETH..ITS A DANGER TO OUR PATIENTS!

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN IDIOTS ARE IN DENTISTRY? The fate of medicine...idiots screw ppl's teeth (and lives) and this becomes a new attraction for the trial lawyers, who will in turn pay off politicians to pass new laws screwing dentists malpractice ..

ALSO THE hospital-groups (who pay off the politicians) start acting like, "oh look these private dentists are so risky and inept, they need to be under the control of a hospital; there is too much infection,etc in a dentist's office, the important dental work (ie, the lucrative dental work) should be in a hospital setting to be safer"...so dentists end up getting screwed and under the mercy of a corrupt hospital..DON'T BELIEVE ME?? ITS HAPPENING TO MEDICINE AND ambulatory surgical centers RIGHT NOW!!
Every post you make is more difficult to read (I'm talking thought content and text formatting) than the last. You should have a nice drink of government mind-control fluoride elixir to settle your nerves.
 
I have been personally hearing from my friends (not rumors) looking for jobs in the cities of San Francisco (Bay area in general), Fresno, Sacramento, Middletown, Manhattan, Brooklyn, LA, OC, and SD. So this saturation of dentists is actually quite widespread and not simply confined to traditional areas of ultra high development (many of these places are suburbs on the fringes of cities that have traditionally treated dentists well). Unfortunately, I don't know anyone looking for jobs other than in those two states, so that is why I was asking for people's personal experiences.


Confirmed. I can tell you based on my 10 years in private practice and talking to friends in private practices in Boston, OC, LA, San Diego, and San Jose that this summer (especially August) has been the sloooooowest ever for all of us since grand opening. I don't know about middle America but what's astonishing is how all these locations across America suffered the exact same drastic downturn at the same time this summer. I'm having lunch with them all this and next week so give me any question to ask them.

The recession is far from over based on our actual income no matter how much the feds try to pump up the stock market with rigged accounting. Figure out today again show 'unexpected' rise in unemployment so the job market will remain stagnant.
 
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