Dentistry vs. medical subspecialties: why choose medicine?

[Dr.who]

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More specifically, I'd like to know your opinions on the following.

At most medical schools today, the most sought after specialty is dermatology, because people expect they'll make the most money from the least amount of work. (I can confidently state it's not because they're enthralled by the nature of the work; botox procedures aren't the most fascinating thing.)

For arguably far less work, less risk of malpractice issues, and no need to deal with the headaches of the modern day healthcare system, dentists are pretty much living the dream, right? They don't have to undergo the years of residency, they can still operate private practices much more easily, and the next thirty years promise a great deal of new technology that is going to make the profession even more alluring.

So, even though ostensibly people are saying they're going into medicine to solve society's ills -- and don't get me wrong, there are many such people -- the statistics speak for themselves: dermatology IS the most sought after residency program, and dermatology provides the best lifestyle. The corollary: a majority of the competitive med students are putting lifestyles before the common good. If this were not so, more people would choose family practice, general pediatrics, or general internal medicine, for which there is undisputedly greater need. For example, in Britain's healthcare system, an enviable model to follow, general practitioners and the like comprise 2/3 to 3/4 of active physicians. In the U.S., however, general practitioners, internists and pediatricians together comprise only 1/3 of our medical community. It is clear that our medical system is graduating too many specialists, yet so many med students still choose to specialize, in many cases (perhaps most) because of lifestyle concerns.

So, if one can argue that many of medicine's most intellectually/technically qualified young people are putting lifestyles first, why are they choosing medicine, when dentistry offers arguably easier rewards?

There are clearly other factors playing in, such as prestige, family/peer pressure, etc., but I wonder about the degree of their effects.

I pose this question because I am anxious to read a variety of viewpoints/thoughts.

 

[dutchman]

More specifically, I'd like to know your opinions on the following.

At most medical schools today, the most sought after specialty is dermatology, because people expect they'll make the most money from the least amount of work. (I can confidently state it's not because they're enthralled by the nature of the work; botox procedures aren't the most fascinating thing.)

For arguably far less work, less risk of malpractice issues, and no need to deal with the headaches of the modern day healthcare system, dentists are pretty much living the dream, right? They don't have to undergo the years of residency, they can still operate private practices much more easily, and the next thirty years promise a great deal of new technology that is going to make the profession even more alluring.

So, even though ostensibly people are saying they're going into medicine to solve society's ills -- and don't get me wrong, there are many such people -- the statistics speak for themselves: dermatology IS the most sought after residency program, and dermatology provides the best lifestyle. The corollary: a majority of the competitive med students are putting lifestyles before the common good. If this were not so, more people would choose family practice, general pediatrics, or general internal medicine, for which there is undisputedly greater need. For example, in Britain's healthcare system, an enviable model to follow, general practitioners and the like comprise 2/3 to 3/4 of active physicians. In the U.S., however, general practitioners, internists and pediatricians together comprise only 1/3 of our medical community. It is clear that our medical system is graduating too many specialists, yet so many med students still choose to specialize, in many cases (perhaps most) because of lifestyle concerns.

So, if one can argue that many of medicine's most intellectually/technically qualified young people are putting lifestyles first, why are they choosing medicine, when dentistry offers arguably easier rewards?

There are clearly other factors playing in, such as prestige, family/peer pressure, etc., but I wonder about the degree of their effects.

I pose this question because I am anxious to read a variety of viewpoints/thoughts.

I am waiting for the "save the world" crew to answer this question too.

 

[Eric Lindros]

So, if one can argue that many of medicine's most intellectually/technically qualified young people are putting lifestyles first, why are they choosing medicine, when dentistry offers arguably easier rewards?

Well, for starters most people actually dp look for jobs that they will like. You do realize that dentists spend their lives hunched over looking in people's mouths, right? Well, for a lot of people that job just isn't very appealing - just like OB GYN isn't sppealing to everyone. Being a dermatologist is worlds apart from being a dentist, both financially and technically.

 

[EndSong]

On could ask about why choose dentistry over something easier like an MBA or Law.

 

[KaraKiz]

I heard dentists have high rates of lung cancer from all of the enamel they inhale.

Plus, I'd rather be in the ED intubating someone. 😀

 

[TSK]

Just because many people want to go into dermatology, doesn't mean that they'll ultimately get the residency. For an avg size graduating class, top schools are proud to place 4-7 graduates into derm residency programs so it's not like there's a huge surpluss of dermatologists..

Furthermore, I've volunteered and done research in dermatology and am currently a research coordinator in the field. Why are ppl under the false assumption that derm is all about botox and pimples?! Derms I've worked with almost exclusively focus on wound healing, melanoma, psoriasis, etc not exactly superficial conditions.

 

[hye345]

Maybe I'm just a naysayer, but to me, the idea of poking around in someone's mouth all day, drilling/pulling their teeth, and watching them scream at me from all the pain just isn't the ideal career for me.

I would much rather put in 4 more years of hard work if I knew that I would be happier for 40 more years.

 

[BNSN]

Why not Dentistry:

-Not intellectually stimulating.

Why Psychiatry (when someone says medicine to me, I assume they mean psychiatry because that's the only thing I care about):
-Have a passion for mental health.
-Fascinated by neuroscience research.

A residency in psychiatry will give me the ability to do both neuroscience research and work with the mentally ill. Is there any other education that will allow me to do both?

 

[MWillie]

Ah dentistry, a lifetime of being almost a real doctor.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Why not Dentistry:

-Not intellectually stimulating.

Why Psychiatry (when someone says medicine to me, I assume they mean psychiatry because that's the only thing I care about):
-Have a passion for mental health.
-Fascinated by neuroscience research.

A residency in psychiatry will give me the ability to do both neuroscience research and work with the mentally ill. Is there any other education that will allow me to do both?

More power to you.....I couldn't spend my entire life handling more nuts than a porn star.

But then again, I considered dentistry until I realized how boring it was.

 

[MossPoh]

More power to you.....I couldn't spend my entire life handling more nuts than a porn star.

But then again, I considered dentistry until I realized how boring it was.

Well psych would be cool if you only had the supreme nuts of the nuts. As the doc I was with stated, "I don't want to deal with the standard b.s. such as the 'my girlfriend dumped me and I'm going to commit suicide' kind of stuff." He also said he had a patient during his rotations that thought hitler was in his testicles. If I could get patients like that.....man that'd be neat.lol Respect to anyone that goes for it though. I don't think I can take too much of the puppy dog and sunshine awww shucks feel better because you are sad kind of stuff. I've been through the psychiatry stuff and just never felt it was benenfical for me...so it is difficult to be into something that you were never really sold on. Just like a dentist without teeth. Dentistry though is just boring for me...everyone has their own view though. The fellowship type deals are cool, but you are never guaranteed the ones you want.

 

[Eric Lindros]

But then again, I considered dentistry until I realized how boring it was.

This was my problem with dentisry. And they fact that I absolutely hate going to the dentist. I would rather go to the doctor than go to the dentist, as stupid as that sounds.

 

[Karina 07]

Dentists have the highest rate of suicide, I believe.

I can understand that. You voluntarily go to dermatologists. Dentists... who wants to go to a dentist? So many people are scared of or hate their dentist, or at least find the whole thing very nerve-wracking.

So, you have a combination of inhaling things all day and seeing yourself cause people fear all day. Not a pretty combination.

 

[lord_jeebus]

Dermatology is not the most sought after specialty. It is perhaps the most difficult to obtain, due to the number of highly qualified applicants relative to the small number of residency positions available.

Most other specialties entertain a greater total number of applicants.

You are right that "many of medicine's most intellectually/technically qualified young people are putting lifestyles first."

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I think you are assuming that specialists don't fulfill the needs of American health care. You are wrong. Specialisties aren't very saturated and their numbers are furthermore restricted by the amount of new residents allowed to be trained each year. Derm, Plastics, and other "less essential" specialties are lucrative because there is that limited number of physicians and also because the reimbursements tend to be out-of-pocket. Primary care medicine is even more unsaturated in America for many reasons, but mostly because reimbursements tend to be less. I don't think anybody enters medicine just because it is a lucrative profession just as no one enters medicine to "save the world."

Intellectually, I would say that many choose to specialize as it is more fulfilling to dedicate one's life to being an expert at a nuance or particular system of the body. People like to be rewarded not just money-wise for their years of hard work, so being regarded as an "expert" of a field is appealing. Family medicine and non-specialized internal medicine does not provide the opportunities to be the "best at X procedure in town" like many specialties do.

The decision to enter dentistry is not ideal since it is like choosing a medical specialty as a premed. Its harder for me to say that I would want to be a dentist more than an orthopedic surgeon right now. I would like for dentistry to be an option and I think ideally it would be yet another medical specialty, but due to historical reasons the professions are not as closely tied as they would be if dentistry came to be at a later point in time.

Dentistry is a nice lifestyle profession, but it does have downsides for a very eager student interested in being a health professional. It is lucrative, but not as lucrative as many specialties of medicine. For someone willing to work 60-80 hrs a week (once they are fully trained), surgical subspecialties are nicely compensated. Once again, the prestige of dentistry isn't as high as medicine. For example, even pathologists can prescribe and practice medicine...dentists are limited in that scope.

 

[dr.rex]

say what you will about dentistry but in four years i will be working and making money and it will be a regular 9-5. on top of that anything is what you make of it. it may be boring to some it may seem not intellectually to others but you can make it both. by investing in the newest technology and playing with the coolest tools on the market or by strinving to be the best there is at your profession. any thing can be boring and not intellectually stimulating if you just go through the motions everyday. so for those of you who stated above that its a "lifetime of almost being a real doctor" please reconsider your statement and look at the predent forum where we are busy not bashing you but bettering ourselves.

 

[Terpskins99]

Dentists have the highest rate of suicide, I believe.

Sorry for going off on a complete tangent here... but I read that the belief dentists have the highest rate of suicide is a myth.

Then again, I first heard about it from a woman whose dentist husband had committed suicide. So go figure. She was my lab partner during undergrad... and the guy's suicide note requested that she go back to school and pursue her dream of med-school... creepy, eh?

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

I don't think it's really a question of the "save the world" crowd chiming-in. There are many, many roles in healthcare and they're all important. I plan to pursue internal medicine even though it's not the most desirable residency and certainly not the most desirable lifestyle - but it's what I want to do.

If you're considering dental school and lifestyle issues are important to you - I'd say, go to dental school. It's certainly an honorable and useful profession. Medical school is such a hard road that I always say - the only reason to go to medical school is that you can't picture yourself doing anything else. I have a lot of respect for dentistry, but it never crossed my mind as an option for me.

 

[DeadCactus]

Dentistry is always one of those careers that made me wonder why people got into it. Then again, at leas dentistry has "lifestyle" as an answer. Now the Proctologists, Urologists, and Ob-Gyn peoples: well I just can't relate to you guys. Might as well throw geologists in there since I guess looking into holes all day just isn't my thing...

😛

 

[BNSN]

Well psych would be cool if you only had the supreme nuts of the nuts. As the doc I was with stated, "I don't want to deal with the standard b.s. such as the 'my girlfriend dumped me and I'm going to commit suicide' kind of stuff." He also said he had a patient during his rotations that thought hitler was in his testicles. If I could get patients like that.....man that'd be neat.lol Respect to anyone that goes for it though. I don't think I can take too much of the puppy dog and sunshine awww shucks feel better because you are sad kind of stuff. I've been through the psychiatry stuff and just never felt it was benenfical for me...so it is difficult to be into something that you were never really sold on. Just like a dentist without teeth. Dentistry though is just boring for me...everyone has their own view though. The fellowship type deals are cool, but you are never guaranteed the ones you want.

I certainly hope this person you're referring to doesn't become a psychiatrist. Psychiatry isn't about staring at the "nuts" and laughing -- if he/she feels depression due to stressful life events is "bs" and that only having psychotic patients is cool, this person is not serious about being a compassionate, competent psychiatrist.

 

[UIC Killa]

More specifically, I'd like to know your opinions on the following.

At most medical schools today, the most sought after specialty is dermatology, because people expect they'll make the most money from the least amount of work. (I can confidently state it's not because they're enthralled by the nature of the work; botox procedures aren't the most fascinating thing.)

For arguably far less work, less risk of malpractice issues, and no need to deal with the headaches of the modern day healthcare system, dentists are pretty much living the dream, right? They don't have to undergo the years of residency, they can still operate private practices much more easily, and the next thirty years promise a great deal of new technology that is going to make the profession even more alluring.

So, even though ostensibly people are saying they're going into medicine to solve society's ills -- and don't get me wrong, there are many such people -- the statistics speak for themselves: dermatology IS the most sought after residency program, and dermatology provides the best lifestyle. The corollary: a majority of the competitive med students are putting lifestyles before the common good. If this were not so, more people would choose family practice, general pediatrics, or general internal medicine, for which there is undisputedly greater need. For example, in Britain's healthcare system, an enviable model to follow, general practitioners and the like comprise 2/3 to 3/4 of active physicians. In the U.S., however, general practitioners, internists and pediatricians together comprise only 1/3 of our medical community. It is clear that our medical system is graduating too many specialists, yet so many med students still choose to specialize, in many cases (perhaps most) because of lifestyle concerns.

So, if one can argue that many of medicine's most intellectually/technically qualified young people are putting lifestyles first, why are they choosing medicine, when dentistry offers arguably easier rewards?

There are clearly other factors playing in, such as prestige, family/peer pressure, etc., but I wonder about the degree of their effects.

I pose this question because I am anxious to read a variety of viewpoints/thoughts.

This question was actually quite easy for me, dentristy does not provide the same options that medical school will...once you go into dental school...well you are going to be a dentist (granted there are sub-specialities but still in dentristy)...a medical student has the option of going to so many different routes...they can choose to be internists or family practician, or speciliaze...plus...I believe that physicians have a much greater potential in making a difference in society as a whole...an important aspect of my decision to go into medicine was to be able do some pro-bono work or start somekind of clinic from my home country...maybe become part of other programs like doctors w/o borders and go to places like africa or asia...I dont believe that I would be able to have as much of an impact as a dentist (AIDS, Cancer...etc) so for me...medicine was not only more stimulating, but it provides more options and has a greater potential in making a difference in global healthcare...

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I certainly hope this person you're referring to doesn't become a psychiatrist. Psychiatry isn't about staring at the "nuts" and laughing -- if he/she feels depression due to stressful life events is "bs" and that only having psychotic patients is cool, this person is not serious about being a compassionate, competent psychiatrist.

Nah, MossPoh is just a different sort of character.....but he does have a point....I get tired of the "I took a handful of ibuprofen because my boyfriend dumped me" cases....you have any idea how much I've wanted to march the whiny little b_tch back into the bathroom, open up the medicine cabinet and go "See those," *points at aspirin* "those are a much better choice if you actually want to die. Or something that requires a prescription would be an even better choice! Also DON'T CALL for an ambulance! Now if you just want to get your ex's attention, trust me, you'd get a lot farther if you put on something slinky and showed him a good time, or demonstrated a distinct lack of an appreciable gag reflex. Doing something like what you did tonight is not helping your case, it's just making you look even more undesirable. Oh, and another thing.....no guy in his right mind voluntarily gives up a piece of ass unless he has found one to replace it..."

But sadly, the rules of the medical professions require me to not do this. As I've said before, often times medicine has less to do with saving lives and more to do with interfering with the forces of natural selection.

Granted, dealing with psychos and schizos, while more entertaining for a while, would rapidly cause you to become even more disillusioned because you can't do anything for them except sedate them and lock them up so they don't hurt themselves or anyone else.

 

[BNSN]

Nah, MossPoh is just a different sort of character.....but he does have a point....I get tired of the "I took a handful of ibuprofen because my boyfriend dumped me" cases....you have any idea how much I've wanted to march the whiny little b_tch back into the bathroom, open up the medicine cabinet and go "See those," *points at aspirin* "those are a much better choice if you actually want to die. Or something that requires a prescription would be an even better choice! Also DON'T CALL for an ambulance! Now if you just want to get your ex's attention, trust me, you'd get a lot farther if you put on something slinky and showed him a good time, or demonstrated a distinct lack of an appreciable gag reflex. Doing something like what you did tonight is not helping your case, it's just making you look even more undesirable. Oh, and another thing.....no guy in his right mind voluntarily gives up a piece of ass unless he has found one to replace it..."

But sadly, the rules of the medical professions require me to not do this. As I've said before, often times medicine has less to do with saving lives and more to do with interfering with the forces of natural selection.

Depression is the common cold of psychiatry. Does a family practice doctor get upset when he has to treat a cold? No. What gives psychiatrists' the right to get upset when they have to treat, or atleast ameliorate, the symptoms of depression?

I don't want to get confrontational, but the attitude I'm seeing here from you and the other poster is one of -- "These damn depressives. Why don't they just snap out of it? I have better things to do than deal with depressed patients." It's not an appropriate attitude for an MD, and even less so for one who has specialized in psychiatry. Compassion and understanding are important in all fields of medicine, but they have a special place in psychiatry.

 

[Eric Lindros]

say what you will about dentistry but in four years i will be working and making money and it will be a regular 9-5. on top of that anything is what you make of it. it may be boring to some it may seem not intellectually to others but you can make it both. by investing in the newest technology and playing with the coolest tools on the market or by strinving to be the best there is at your profession. any thing can be boring and not intellectually stimulating if you just go through the motions everyday. so for those of you who stated above that its a "lifetime of almost being a real doctor" please reconsider your statement and look at the predent forum where we are busy not bashing you but bettering ourselves.

I don't agree with anyone bashing anyone, but you know this goes both ways. I've seen plenty of pre-med bashing in that forum over the years.

Also, I have a lot of respect for dentists because they are vital members of our society. It's just not something I would want to do. Just like being a doctoe is something most dentists don't want to do.

 

[koennen]

Well, for starters most people actually dp look for jobs that they will like. You do realize that dentists spend their lives hunched over looking in people's mouths, right? Well, for a lot of people that job just isn't very appealing - just like OB GYN isn't sppealing to everyone. Being a dermatologist is worlds apart from being a dentist, both financially and technically.

Actually, dentists and ob/gyns have a lot in common. They both spend their day looking at pink, stinky holes.

 

[celltech2000]

As with dentistry, medicine offers a lot of versatility. Some physicians choose not to practice medicine at all. Lucrative positions in academic medicine, pharm industry, public health, and public policy are also made available to individuals that pursue medicine.

 

[Dr.who]

Interesting comments.

What prompted this thread, in part, was the advice (generally unsolicited) I have received from my oral surgeon, my dentist, and a family friend who's a dentist, all of whom are harping the glories of their professions and telling me what trouble medicine is. The thing is, all their arguments are predicated on lifestyle concerns.

On the other hand, doctor friends and acquaintances often tell me a different story. Those who began decades ago often pose the question, "Are you SURE you want to go into medicine? Do you know what you are getting into?" Meanwhile, the more recently trained MDs are more optimistic, saying things like, "Yes, I drive an hour each way to get to my understaffed, underresourced clinic - but I love it!"

Really, what it comes down to is expectations; many of the older physicians probably did enter the profession for lifestyle reasons, and to them, the future of the profession from that vantage point is relatively bleak. Meanwhile, the younger physicians know exactly what challenges they will face, yet they choose the profession in spite of or, in idealistic cases, because of these challenges.

Personally, the reasons I don't want to become a dentist are (a) the perceived repititious nature of the job; (b) the constant monologues dentists have with themselves (e.g. asking a patient how her kids are doing as the patient thinks to herself, "I'd answer you if you weren't poking around in my freaking mouth right now!") - I think dentists all get a kick out of asking people questions while these people are physically unable to answer; and (c) I do have some of the idealist to me, and I have taken this premedical path in many respects to get something beyond a technical skill - and like some of you have said, there is more versatility to effect positive change with an MD degree (there are simply more options).

I am undecided as to whether I will specialize or become a GP. I wrote this thread in part to hear from people are already quite sure they'd like to specialize, particularly those who want derm or something, and see why they would deal with the increased headaches of the MD process when dentistry is arguably an easier path to a similar end result. Dentists clearly serve a very important role in society and healthcare as well, and I do not mean to diminish their relevance in this regard.

Cheers.

 

[Towelie]

Dentists have the highest suicide rate of any profession.

 

[DrAverageJoe]

Dentists make more money and work fewer hours. It's a great profession, but it's not for everyone.

 

[moe_4eva]

I am undecided as to whether I will specialize or become a GP. I wrote this thread in part to hear from people are already quite sure they'd like to specialize, particularly those who want derm or something, and see why they would deal with the increased headaches of the MD process when dentistry is arguably an easier path to a similar end result. Dentists clearly serve a very important role in society and healthcare as well, and I do not mean to diminish their relevance in this regard.

Cheers.

I think there are too many good reasons to specialize. For me, assuming I get in, it's for a couple of main reasons. I would personally like to do trauma surgery in a trauma I center. Not because of the money, but because of the excitement and challenge. I guess you could say I'm kind of an adrenaline junky. Right now, I work for the fire dept., and it really can't get any more adrenaline junky-ish (to use my own vocabulary). However, I feel that with the job, you can definitely hit a wall. Most of the medical calls we go on are all too routine, too many of the people just do not really need our help. I may enjoy it now, but in 20 years, I'm not so sure. Trauma surgery is something to which I feel I will always have to adapt to, a challenge I can never completely master. I wouldn't feel that way as a GP, dentist, oral surgeon, or derm. Those, in my opinion, are career paths for those that, like you said, value lifestyle above anything else. That is just not for me.

 

[desidr]

I think there are too many good reasons to specialize. For me, assuming I get in, it's for a couple of main reasons. I would personally like to do trauma surgery in a trauma I center. Not because of the money, but because of the excitement and challenge. I guess you could say I'm kind of an adrenaline junky. Right now, I work for the fire dept., and it really can't get any more adrenaline junky-ish (to use my own vocabulary). However, I feel that with the job, you can definitely hit a wall. Most of the medical calls we go on are all too routine, too many of the people just do not really need our help. I may enjoy it now, but in 20 years, I'm not so sure. Trauma surgery is something to which I feel I will always have to adapt to, a challenge I can never completely master. I wouldn't feel that way as a GP, dentist, oral surgeon, or derm. Those, in my opinion, are career paths for those that, like you said, value lifestyle above anything else. That is just not for me.

this is simply not true. if you think oral surgeons arent continually presented with more challenging cases than they have ever seen before or perhaps could have even imagined, then that is simply a naive perception. nature will continually conjure new mysteries for us to solve. there is no end to it in any field. whether you choose to be a general dentist, a neurosurgeon, a trauma surgeon, or a GP, if you really want to find difficult cases, one's that will challenge you and one's that you will perhaps never be able to solve, you can find them with relative ease. it's all about what you are good at, and what stimulates you that matters.

a dermatologists lifestyle might seem nice to many, and im not denying that it is, but to say that trauma surgery is more challenging is naive. there are certainly leading dermatologists in their sub speciality who see rare cases from all over the world which they have to figure out how to treat because no one else has a clue and nothing has worked. mysteries are abound in medicine. all fields are as challenging as you want them to be for yourself.

 

[KaraKiz]

Dentists make more money and work fewer hours. It's a great profession, but it's not for everyone.

More money than who? They may make more than doctors in a few specialties, but, seriously, have you ever met a poor doctor? Trust me, most of the ppl applying to medical school are fully aware of that we are going to have to deal with a lot of crap to become doctors. But if you can't imagine doing anything else, you hope that your motivation is strong enough to get through the rough times.

Average Salaries and Money Magazine's Rank of Best Jobs for 2006:
(factors include job growth rate in the next 10 years, stress level, work environment, hours, etc)

#5 - Physician's Assistant.......$75,117
#9 - Pharmacist....................$98,998
#12- Physical Therapist.........$54,883
#14- Chiropractor.................$84,996
#30- Physician/Surgeon.........$247,536
#43- Dentist........................$122,883

So no, dentists do not make more than physicians, and yes, dentistry can be a great job but its not for everyone. The same is true for medicine.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I don't want to get confrontational, but the attitude I'm seeing here from you and the other poster is one of -- "These damn depressives. Why don't they just snap out of it? I have better things to do than deal with depressed patients." It's not an appropriate attitude for an MD, and even less so for one who has specialized in psychiatry. Compassion and understanding are important in all fields of medicine, but they have a special place in psychiatry.

As someone who actually had depression, I think you're being a little on the hyperbolic side......my problem isn't that I think they should "snap out of it", but rather with the attention getting "gestures" that people make. It's not so much a "cry for help" as a "HEY! Look at me! No! ME!!!!!!!" type of situation.

You're right, you lose your right to complain about your bread and butter cases. That is why I will not go into psychiatry. By the way, you might want to realize that there is a difference between 'compassion' and being a good doctor. Compassion is a disorder that tends to cloud one's judgment and leads to emotional burnout....if you can learn to shut it off, it makes making difficult choices much easier....oh, wait.....there aren't tough choices in psychiatry- at it's most trying is the choices of Prozac vs. Zoloft, Thorazine vs. Haldol, talking about your feelings vs. talking about your mother....talk about easy 9-5 lifestyles....

 

[DrAverageJoe]

More money than who? They may make more than doctors in a few specialties, but, seriously, have you ever met a poor doctor? Trust me, most of the ppl applying to medical school are fully aware of that we are going to have to deal with a lot of crap to become doctors. But if you can't imagine doing anything else, you hope that your motivation is strong enough to get through the rough times.

Average Salaries and Money Magazine's Rank of Best Jobs for 2006:
(factors include job growth rate in the next 10 years, stress level, work environment, hours, etc)

#5 - Physician's Assistant.......$75,117
#9 - Pharmacist....................$98,998
#12- Physical Therapist.........$54,883
#14- Chiropractor.................$84,996
#30- Physician/Surgeon.........$247,536
#43- Dentist........................$122,883

So no, dentists do not make more than physicians, and yes, dentistry can be a great job but its not for everyone. The same is true for medicine.

Those averages are never accurate.

 

[KaraKiz]

Those averages are never accurate.

So what are the accurate averages?

 

[DrAverageJoe]

So what are the accurate averages?

Don't compare apples with oranges. You shouldn't believe everything you read in Money magazine.

The average general dentist makes $177,500 according to the ADA.

The average pediatrician/primary care physician makes $120,000.

Pharmacists at Kaiser start at $120,000 with a $15,000 signing bonus.

 

[Towelie]

Dentists make more money and work fewer hours. It's a great profession, but it's not for everyone.

How can you dedicate your life to teeth? It just seems like such a pointless existence. If you want to make money, go to wall street and make real money.

 

[DrAverageJoe]

How can you dedicate your life to teeth? It just seems like such a pointless existence. If you want to make money, go to wall street and make real money.

I'm not even arguing in favor of dentistry.

 

[YupGypsy]

Those averages are never accurate.

I wondered about this too. Maybe the good, agile dentists make banks and the clumsy ones are poor.

 

[YupGypsy]

Well, for starters most people actually dp look for jobs that they will like. You do realize that dentists spend their lives hunched over looking in people's mouths, right? Well, for a lot of people that job just isn't very appealing - just like OB GYN isn't sppealing to everyone. Being a dermatologist is worlds apart from being a dentist, both financially and technically.

so who's richer, a derma or a dentist?

 

[abcxyz0123]

More money than who? They may make more than doctors in a few specialties, but, seriously, have you ever met a poor doctor? Trust me, most of the ppl applying to medical school are fully aware of that we are going to have to deal with a lot of crap to become doctors. But if you can't imagine doing anything else, you hope that your motivation is strong enough to get through the rough times.

Average Salaries and Money Magazine's Rank of Best Jobs for 2006:
(factors include job growth rate in the next 10 years, stress level, work environment, hours, etc)

#5 - Physician's Assistant.......$75,117
#9 - Pharmacist....................$98,998
#12- Physical Therapist.........$54,883
#14- Chiropractor.................$84,996
#30- Physician/Surgeon.........$247,536
#43- Dentist........................$122,883

So no, dentists do not make more than physicians, and yes, dentistry can be a great job but its not for everyone. The same is true for medicine.

making twice as much as a physician doesn't mean anything when you're working over twice the amount of hours, dummy. its all about dollars per hour, and dentists win when it comes to that.

 

[KaraKiz]

Don't compare apples with oranges. You shouldn't believe everything you read in Money magazine.
The average general dentist makes $177,500 according to the ADA.
The average pediatrician/primary care physician makes $120,000.
Pharmacists at Kaiser start at $120,000 with a $15,000 signing bonus.

Yes, but the groups that report averages report significantly different averages (in medicine for example, the AMA, AGPA, HHCS, etc all have different findings) - thats why I found a source that averaged all of the averages.. Not all or most pharmacists work at Kaiser, and from what I've read, the average starting salary for pharmacists nationwide is closer to $75,000 to$90,000. But some people don't want to be a pharmacist or a dentist - it just doesnt float their boat, regardless of the benefits of the job. Some people just don't want to do medicine! To each his own.

To clarify a few points: I know it is common for dentists to make more money than PCP's or general practitioners, but the averages for pediatricians is usually almost double your quote above, according to most sources. Pediatricians and PCP are not lumped into 1 category.

http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary.html This is from 2001, and reports averages from different groups. I didn't use those stats b/c they are old. But you can also see the variety in reported averages between groups. I didn't want to bias my posting, so I looked for a site that averaged the averages, and then averaged those averages, which is never really statistically correct, but, it was the best I could hope for without reporting a million numbers, plus it was up to date.

Dentists can make more money than some doctors and usually have better working hours than most doctors. But doctors who specialize usually make more money than 177K in their first year of work, and it only goes up from there. Medicine is worth the effort and the money to those who want to do it. I'm not trying to knock dentistry. They are both excellent fields to be in. It was the "doctors are stupid b/c they could do less work for more money" attitude expressed by some that irks me b/c its mean and not true. My roommate was a dentistry student and she hated taking anatomy with med students b/c they treated the dentistry students like they were stupid, so it seems like this animosity is fostered by poor attitudes on both sides.

 

[KaraKiz]

making twice as much as a physician doesn't mean anything when you're working over twice the amount of hours, dummy. its all about dollars per hour, and dentists win when it comes to that.

Hey - this isn't the playground after school, knock off the name calling, huh?

 

[Towelie]

making twice as much as a physician doesn't mean anything when you're working over twice the amount of hours, dummy. its all about dollars per hour, and dentists win when it comes to that.

Doubtful.

 

[desidr]

Doubtful.

mostly true actually. per hour dentists rake in the cash. 9-5 with few emergencies and an unhurried lunch. you'll be hard pressed to find a field in medicine that beats dentistry on a $$/hr basis.

 

[YupGypsy]

mostly true actually. per hour dentists rake in the cash. 9-5 with few emergencies and an unhurried lunch. you'll be hard pressed to find a field in medicine that beats dentistry on a $$/hr basis.

where's the fun in that

 

[BNSN]

As someone who actually had depression, I think you're being a little on the hyperbolic side......my problem isn't that I think they should "snap out of it", but rather with the attention getting "gestures" that people make. It's not so much a "cry for help" as a "HEY! Look at me! No! ME!!!!!!!" type of situation.

Someone taking Tylenol in the hope of harming themselves is not an attention-getting gesture. It may be a futile act, but behind it are serious emotions.

Even if the person did know that Tylenol wouldn't kill them, the act could have a million other reasons behind it other than trying to get attention. For some, self-harm is cathartic.

You're right, you lose your right to complain about your bread and butter cases. That is why I will not go into psychiatry. By the way, you might want to realize that there is a difference between 'compassion' and being a good doctor. Compassion is a disorder that tends to cloud one's judgment and leads to emotional burnout....if you can learn to shut it off, it makes making difficult choices much easier....oh, wait.....there aren't tough choices in psychiatry- at it's most trying is the choices of Prozac vs. Zoloft, Thorazine vs. Haldol, talking about your feelings vs. talking about your mother....talk about easy 9-5 lifestyles....

Compassion doesn't mean experiencing the feelings of the person you are treating. It means understanding that different people have very different definitions of pain and suffering. Your emotional pain may seem trivial to me (a boy or girlfriend leaving), but as a psychiatrist, I have to understand that pain is personally defined. There is no universal standard of pain that makes one person's pain "right" and another person's pain "wrong."

Furthermore, you are right -- psychiatry is not a procedure-intensive field. As a matter of fact, it is very procedure-poor. This has more to do with the fact that psychiatric illnesses haven't been properly defined by neuroscientists, but as time moves on and the biological basis of depression, schizophrenia, and anxiety are further understood, psychiatric illnesses will be much more specific to medications. In other words, some people respond to Lexapro, while others respond to Paxil -- surely there is a biological reason for this. As these reasons are uncovered, it won't be a toss up between Lex or Paxil. There will hopefully be lab-based tests to determine which "type" of depression a person has. This is far, far, far in the future, but it is coming. And as a psychiatrist, I hope to take part in that research.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

BTW, I didn't say Tylenol (which can cause a lingering death from hepatic necrosis and failure if you don't get n-acetylcysteine in the patient quickly enough.....I wonder how cathartic that would be?), I said ibuprofen.

 

[Towelie]

mostly true actually. per hour dentists rake in the cash. 9-5 with few emergencies and an unhurried lunch. you'll be hard pressed to find a field in medicine that beats dentistry on a $$/hr basis.

Derm. Rad Onc. Plastics. Ortho. Neurosurg. Anesthesia. Radiology. Vascular Surg. EM. Onc. Cardiology.

In otherwords, everything but FM, Peds, and (sometimes) Psych & Neuro.

 

[dentaldentist]

More money than who? They may make more than doctors in a few specialties, but, seriously, have you ever met a poor doctor? Trust me, most of the ppl applying to medical school are fully aware of that we are going to have to deal with a lot of crap to become doctors. But if you can't imagine doing anything else, you hope that your motivation is strong enough to get through the rough times.

Average Salaries and Money Magazine's Rank of Best Jobs for 2006:
(factors include job growth rate in the next 10 years, stress level, work environment, hours, etc)

#5 - Physician's Assistant.......$75,117
#9 - Pharmacist....................$98,998
#12- Physical Therapist.........$54,883
#14- Chiropractor.................$84,996
#30- Physician/Surgeon.........$247,536
#43- Dentist........................$122,883

So no, dentists do not make more than physicians, and yes, dentistry can be a great job but its not for everyone. The same is true for medicine.

These numbers are not accurate for dentists becuase when you see the average salary it is misleading. Most dentists (75% - 80%) own and run their own practice so they do not earn a set salary. Dentists that make a salary are those that are associates or work for a school or the government. These are typically the low end paying dental jobs. Overall, the actual average for general dentists is about $180,000. This is more than what the average family physician makes, but less than most medical specialists make. Of course, dental specialists like orthodontists, periodontists and oral surgeons average more than general dentists earning on average around $250,000- $300,000.

Obviously you should not choose a career just on the amount you will make, but I wanted to clear up the confusion how much dentists make.

Also, Dentistry is NOT the career with the highest suicide rate. The suicide rate for dentists is no higher than it is for other health professionals. There was a study that showed dentists with a higher suicde rate a few decades ago, but this study later was proven to be conducted with faulty data.

I was once pre-med and had always thought I would go into medicine, but after doing some shadowing in both professions I found dentistry was really what I wanted. Yes, its clearly not as prestigious as being a physician or a surgeon, but I personally find the work very enjoyable and the career lifestyle is fantastic.

If any of you are at all interested, I would suggest talking with your dentist and seeing if you can shadow for a day. Maybe you will like it. Maybe you will hate it. But the profession is quite a bit different than most of you imagine it to be. Many of you dismiss dentistry with only having a very vague idea about what we do. Anyway, good luck.