dermatology matching for D.O.s?

[Dr.ImCute]

I just viewed the COMP 04 matching list, and saw no one match into derm (by choice?)... and I've been hearing a lot of crazy stuff about derm residencies.

But I'm wondering, by going to a DO school will I kill my chances?

Do they give priority to MDs?

Also, how good are DO derm residencies? I know some DOs don't do DO residencies because of underfunding or whatever not...

help me! any advice? am I freaking out for no reason?

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[bgreet]

Well, first of all why would you ever go into derm? It's all dependent on what residencies you are talking about. Certainly as a DO you can go into a derm residency, but if you are talking about doing residencies in columbia, etc. etc. (non do friendly md residencies) then you might have a problem. Over all however, there are do dermatologists and it is very possible for you, if you try hard enough, to land a residency spot in either an MD or DO dermatology residency. Best of luck to you, but I really don't think you should fret, at least not yet!

 

[Chronotropic]

Well if your goal is to do derm it's going to be hard no matter where you go. Since there are so few derm spots you really have to really stick out via grades and/or connections. And as far as connections go MDs tend to be better off since their schools may be affiliated with the residency and it's probably more likely that their parents are/were MD derms.

That being said, 3% of the allo derm spots were filled by DO students. So it is definatley possible. Rock the boards, do well in class, and establish solid connections in the field and it is very possible to get a spot.

 

[DireWolf]

You are freaking out for good reason if you want to do MD derm. There are only two CONFIRMED cases of D.O.s matching derm at allopathic residencies. This probably has something to do with the fact that most D.O.s will apply to osteopathic derm residencies only. It also has to do with the fact that derm is so competitive, even for MDs, that a D.O.'s chances are slim to none.

There are currently ~20 FUNDED D.O. derm residency positions each year. And you will be competing with 100-200 applicants depending on the year. I wish I could remember the his name, but there is a derm resident at KCOM that started a forum for D.O. derm residencies. Much of my information came directly from him, as I was considering derm at one time.

Here is basically what he told me:
1. The whole process is political.
2. You obviously need the grades, top 10 class rank, >90% on COMLEX 1 and 2
3. You need to rotate at at least a couple programs to get known.
4. You need to do derm research.
5. You need to attend the AOCD annual meeting every year to get known. This is very difficult because it is usually in the middle of the school-year.
6. You cannot apply to any of the programs until your internship year. This means you have to do an internship without being guaranteed a spot. Many people take the risk and don't get a spot. This means you have to either choose a different specialty or keep re-applying. He said many successful applicants have tried at least 2-3 times before getting a spot. This means they have forfeited 2-3 years of their medical career. And some of these people don't get accepted.
7. Even if you have the numbers, it's all about who you know. If the PDs aren't familiar with you through meetings, rotations, research, you don't stand a chance.

This is a very grim picture. If I can remember this resident's name and his website I'll let you know. Ask anyone who has tried to get into a D.O. derm program and they'll tell you the same thing.

I dropped any thought of pursueing derm when I found out all the BS you have to endure. Even with perfect grades, boards, etc. there's still a very good chance of not getting in. Not too appealing to me. (not that I have the grades or board scores to even consider it)

Just to add- there are obviously 20 people who successfully match every year, so it's not impossible. If derm is truly where the heart is, then go for it. Try to become one of the lucky 20.

good luck.

 

[sophiejane]

Here is basically what he told me:
1. The whole process is political.
2. You obviously need the grades, top 10 class rank, >90% on COMLEX 1 and 2
3. You need to rotate at at least a couple programs to get known.
4. You need to do derm research.
5. You need to attend the AOCD annual meeting every year to get known. This is very difficult because it is usually in the middle of the school-year.
6. You cannot apply to any of the programs until your internship year. This means you have to do an internship without being guaranteed a spot. Many people take the risk and don't get a spot. This means you have to either choose a different specialty or keep re-applying. He said many successful applicants have tried at least 2-3 times before getting a spot. This means they have forfeited 2-3 years of their medical career. And some of these people don't get accepted.
7. Even if you have the numbers, it's all about who you know. If the PDs aren't familiar with you through meetings, rotations, research, you don't stand a chance.

That picture has all the makings of a miserable 4 years. Hope it's worth it to you!

You did know that being a DO would be an uphill battle into MD derm programs when you applied, right? And you did know that DO schools are known for PRIMARY care, mostly, right?

If you really really love skin disease (and not just the hours and the paycheck of the profession), then go for it. Just know the sacrifices are huge.

 

[ny skindoc]

As stated above Derm is very difficult for MD students,even for strong applicants to obtain.In the past several years 2-3 DOs per year have matched into allopathic Derm (out of ~262 positions per year). http://mywebpages.comcast.net/longk/DermMatch2004.htm
It appears that the DO derm route is the best way to go although a complicated one.

 

[VentdependenT]

If you land USMLE I over a 240 then you can begin to think about trying for allo derm. Someone got into Cleveland Clinic derm from our school in years past.

It is tough as nails, but nothing beats the lifestyle factor. Start building your connections now anyways.

 

[Adapt]

You are freaking out for good reason if you want to do MD derm. There are only two CONFIRMED cases of D.O.s matching derm at allopathic residencies. This probably has something to do with the fact that most D.O.s will apply to osteopathic derm residencies only. It also has to do with the fact that derm is so competitive, even for MDs, that a D.O.'s chances are slim to none.

There are currently ~20 FUNDED D.O. derm residency positions each year. And you will be competing with 100-200 applicants depending on the year. I wish I could remember the his name, but there is a derm resident at KCOM that started a forum for D.O. derm residencies. Much of my information came directly from him, as I was considering derm at one time.

Here is basically what he told me:
1. The whole process is political.
2. You obviously need the grades, top 10 class rank, >90% on COMLEX 1 and 2
3. You need to rotate at at least a couple programs to get known.
4. You need to do derm research.
5. You need to attend the AOCD annual meeting every year to get known. This is very difficult because it is usually in the middle of the school-year.
6. You cannot apply to any of the programs until your internship year. This means you have to do an internship without being guaranteed a spot. Many people take the risk and don't get a spot. This means you have to either choose a different specialty or keep re-applying. He said many successful applicants have tried at least 2-3 times before getting a spot. This means they have forfeited 2-3 years of their medical career. And some of these people don't get accepted.
7. Even if you have the numbers, it's all about who you know. If the PDs aren't familiar with you through meetings, rotations, research, you don't stand a chance.

This is a very grim picture. If I can remember this resident's name and his website I'll let you know. Ask anyone who has tried to get into a D.O. derm program and they'll tell you the same thing.

I dropped any thought of pursueing derm when I found out all the BS you have to endure. Even with perfect grades, boards, etc. there's still a very good chance of not getting in. Not too appealing to me. (not that I have the grades or board scores to even consider it)

Just to add- there are obviously 20 people who successfully match every year, so it's not impossible. If derm is truly where the heart is, then go for it. Try to become one of the lucky 20.

good luck.

Wow, I would have though it would have been easier for DOs getting into a DO derm residency. It's definitely hard either way. 😱

 

[(nicedream)]

As everyone has said, it really takes the COMPLETE package, literally COMPLETE - anything you could think of that would be impressive is essential.
Here's a list of the DO derm programs:

Columbia Hospital FL West Palm Beach (FOR THEIR FP's ONLY)
Cuyahoga Falls General Hosp OH Cuyahoga Falls
Genesys Regional Medical Center-Health Park MI Grand Blanc
Kingman Regional Med Ctr AZ Kingman
Lehigh Valley Hosp/Muhlenberg PA Allentown
New York United Hospital Medical Center NY Port Chester
Northeast Regional Med Ctr MO Kirksville
NSUCOM/N Broward Hospital District FL Ft. Lauderdale
O'Bleness Memorial Hospital OH Athens
Oakwood Southshore Medical Center MI Trenton
POH Medical Center MI Pontiac
St Barnabas Hospital NY Bronx
St John Oakland Hospital MI Madison Heights
St John's Episcopal Hospital South Shore NY Far Rockaway
Sun Coast Hospital FL Largo
UHHS Richmond Heights Hospital OH Richmond Heights
Wellington Regional Med Ctr FL Wellington (UNPAID)
WesternU/Arizona Dermatology AZ Mesa
WesternU/COMP CA Torrance

Here's a link to a DO derm forum - it's pretty bare though, and no posts since last year. Nonetheless, there is some good information.
http://www.doctorsbookmark.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi
Click on Medical Students Discussion.

 

[Dr.ImCute]

Thanks for all the advice! its all really helpful! 😍

 

[specialkay]

Hi everyone and nicedream,

Yes, its true that derm residencies are hard to get. However, with the 160 allo derm residencies and many more allo students graduating and over 100 osteo residencies available for us, I would venture to say the odds are "better" that we would match over an MD trying to match an allo residency.

For numbers, here's the site listing the DO derm residencies:

http://aocd.org/cgi-local/membership/Member_Display.plAction=ResProg_Show

Yes, you still have to do extremely well and make connections and kill the boards ... but its nice to know its a little bit "easier" for us in one arena.

Also, for those of us going to Florida and rotating around the state, there are 21 derm DO residencies in that state alone.

I know we're supposed to be primary care docs but the more DO's in specialities the better for so many reasons - not only will it increase the visibility of DOs in the community but the holistic health philosophy will be able to permeate into other areas of medicine.

YEA! osteopathic medicine.

Kay

 

[(nicedream)]

over 100 osteo residencies available for us

The link you provided didn't work, but I'm fairly sure that in reality there are only about 25 funded first-year DO derm spots. There are something like 18 programs, each of which has maybe 9 funded spots total maximum, 3 of which would be PGY-1 (or 2 after intern year). Most have only 3 funded spots, one in each year.

Also, for those of us going to Florida and rotating around the state, there are 21 derm DO residencies in that state alone.

It is true that Florida has 4 DO derm programs. However, Wellington is unpaid, and Columbia's derm spots are only for their FP graduates. That leaves NSUCOM S. Broward and Sun Coast, which have about 5 funded PGY-1/2 years put together.

I don't mean to sound bleak, but these are just the facts.

 

[specialkay]

Sorry about that - try this: http://www.aocd.org and click on "residencies" to see the number - nationwide totals look like over 100 and FLA about 20 but if some are unpaid, then forget it!

 

[(nicedream)]

Sorry about that - try this: http://www.aocd.org and click on "residencies" to see the number - nationwide totals look like over 100 and FLA about 20 but if some are unpaid, then forget it!

Yes but those are total spots for all three years, not for first-year. When you're considering difficulty of obtaining a position, you have to look at first-year funded positions. Basically divide by three.

 

[Adapt]

http://www.aocd.org/cgi-local/membership/Member_Display.pl?Action=ResProg_Show

Hi everyone and nicedream,

Yes, its true that derm residencies are hard to get. However, with the 160 allo derm residencies and many more allo students graduating and over 100 osteo residencies available for us, I would venture to say the odds are "better" that we would match over an MD trying to match an allo residency.

For numbers, here's the site listing the DO derm residencies:

http://aocd.org/cgi-local/membership/Member_Display.plAction=ResProg_Show

Yes, you still have to do extremely well and make connections and kill the boards ... but its nice to know its a little bit "easier" for us in one arena.

Also, for those of us going to Florida and rotating around the state, there are 21 derm DO residencies in that state alone.

I know we're supposed to be primary care docs but the more DO's in specialities the better for so many reasons - not only will it increase the visibility of DOs in the community but the holistic health philosophy will be able to permeate into other areas of medicine.

YEA! osteopathic medicine.

Kay

To clarify, the link you provided has 20 DO derm residency programs in the US with 98 spots for DO students. The list is here:
http://www.aocd.org/cgi-local/membership/Member_Display.pl?Action=ResProg_Show

And no there are not 21 in Florida alone. You may have been looking at the actual list of DOs who are dermatologists.

 

[DireWolf]

Sorry about that - try this: http://www.aocd.org and click on "residencies" to see the number - nationwide totals look like over 100 and FLA about 20 but if some are unpaid, then forget it!

As (nicedream) stated, there are about ~80 TOTAL FUNDED positions in osteopathic derm. But that leaves only ~20 spots EACH year.

Also, I wanted to correct myself. As far as I can tell, using the link listed by nyskindoc and the dermatology forum on ezboard, there have been three recent D.O. matches into allopathic derm. One person from AZCOM, TCOM, and NYCOM.

There were also several matches from UMDNJ, but it didn't distinguish between the MD and DO schools, so it's impossible to know.

There was a poster on here fairly recently (claiming to be from PCOM) who said the guy who graduated at the top of PCOM's class with top notch board scores did not match allopathic derm and will try to match osteopathic during his internship year. That reiterates how hard it can be. (if it's true, can anyone from PCOM confirm this?)

Again, my point is not to say it's impossible, just to give the OP a non-candy-coated idea of how tough the road is.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Is the only difference between "funded" and not-paid that the resident will not get paid during residency. I don't understand the " funded " vs. "non-funded" residencies.

Thanks!

 

[DireWolf]

Is the only difference between "funded" and not-paid that the resident will not get paid during residency. I don't understand the " funded " vs. "non-funded" residencies.

Thanks!

FUNDED = you get paid as a resident (~$35K-$40K/year)

NON-FUNDED = you don't get paid as a resident ($0/year)

And to the best of my knowledge, many of the un-funded positions still won't accept residents, even if they are willing to work for no pay. So it's a little misleading. Someone who REALLY wants derm might try to get an un-funded spot and deal with no salary, only to find out that the program isn't accepting any new residents. It makes you wonder why they even list their program on DO-online at all. 🙄

Also, remember that the few (if any) available un-funded spots are still being HOTLY contested if you can believe that.

Hope this helps.

 

[DireWolf]

BTW, the KCOM resident I was talking about earlier is called "Rick" on the forum linked above by (nicedream).

He will give you honest, non-sugar-coated advice about the route to DO derm.

 

[Amy B]

Dumb question here but I have to ask it.......why is derm so hard to get into? I mean, why the popularity?

Anyone see the Seinfeld when he is dating a derm doc and doesn't know her field and then when he finds out he laughs at her and tells her she doesn't save lives by being a pimple popping doc. Then her patient comes up to them in the restaurant and says she saved his life. Jerry looks stunned and she says to him..."Skin cancer." Then he realizes they didn't think of that. Of course she leaves and doesn't talk to him again.

 

[Doctortobee]

It's cushy...Great $$, no or little call, great lifestyle

 

[Amy B]

It's cushy...Great $$, no or little call, great lifestyle

That is what I thought, but didn't want to speculate about it. No vomit, no diarrhea, no calls in the middle of the night, etc.....

I do think derm would get very very boring. Oh well, each to their own.

 

[specialkay]

Hi again everyone,

Sorry about the earlier confusion, as I was confused - when 6 + 6 + 9 residencies were listed I thought it meant that there are 21 residencies for derm in FL every year.

What I've learned is that you take that number, divide it by three (the number of years you serve) and get 7 residency spots in FL per year.

Then, subtract the number of unpaid residencies (unless your last name is Rockafeller) and you get around 4 paid DO residencies in FL every year.

As we have the ability to rotate anywhere in the US, its nice to know we can go to other hospitals.

I really like the small procedures that derms do - from Mohs (skin cancer) surgery to skin problems such as eczema and psoriasis to the good old acne - I feel like it would be a good fit for my skills. Too bad there isn't a derm residency that pays the same as primary care and requires call, because I like the work and leave the others gunning for the cush spots with high salaries and no call.

Thanks for the edu-ma-cation. All my info I got off this website but thanks for the clarification: www.aocd.org

Kay

 

[(nicedream)]

Too bad there isn't a derm residency that pays the same as primary care and requires call, because I like the work and leave the others gunning for the cush spots with high salaries and no call.

It's not cushness of the residencies that makes derm popular, it's the cushness of the career lifestyle post-residency. The residencies pay the same as all other residencies (30-45k) and involve call (although less than med or something). Derm residencies involve a massive amount of reading.

 

[exmike]

You will probably need a 260+ to get a allo derm residency as a DO. I think the avg. for derm is close to 240 as it is, and you'll have to stand out against all the other 240+ AOA allo students. Definitely go the DO derm route.