Dermatology- MD vs DO

[Cookie143]

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Hi all,
I have a very serious interest in dermatology (I pretty much know for sure I want to pursue it) and am aware of the fact that it has recently become extremely competitive amongst MD's for residency matching. I was just wondering what your thoughts were on DO dermatology vs MD dermatology? Is it also extremely competitive? Would a DO dermatologist learn essentially the same material? I know that this could have been posted in a pre-osteo forum but I wanted the allopathic side of the argument 🙂 If I was accepted to both an MD and DO school, do you think I would be more likely to be matched with Dermatology from a DO school? Thank you for your input.

 

[MadHopsMD]

I always wondered this also. Are there Derm residencies ONLY DO's can apply to. There must be, in DO teaching hospitals. No?

 

[chaeymaey]

There are DO derm residencies. The competition would arise in the COMLEX scores instead of USMLE scores. There's competition nonetheless but there are less applicants.

 

[Law2Doc]

Hi all,
I have a very serious interest in dermatology (I pretty much know for sure I want to pursue it) and am aware of the fact that it has recently become extremely competitive amongst MD's for residency matching. I was just wondering what your thoughts were on DO dermatology vs MD dermatology? Is it also extremely competitive? Would a DO dermatologist learn essentially the same material? I know that this could have been posted in a pre-osteo forum but I wanted the allopathic side of the argument 🙂 If I was accepted to both an MD and DO school, do you think I would be more likely to be matched with Dermatology from a DO school? Thank you for your input.

Considering you posted in another thread that you have not even applied to schools as of yet, I think the issue is not exactly pressing for you. Get into any med schools first, and then you can decide which one would be the best option. Right now you have zero options to consider.

 

[Taus]

I am a 2nd year DO student and think that I can give you a pretty concrete answer on this. There are around 15,000 MD applicants and 300 MD Derm spots. There are less then 3,000 DO applicants and only around 18-23 DO Derm spots per year. You can do the math, but as you can see it is extremely competative to get into from either side of the fence. If you think that you are going to want an extremely competative residency such as Derm, you are likely better off going to a US MD school. Being a US MD is only a start though, you better be one of the best applicants in the country to even think about derm (ie top board scores, grades, research with publications, know the right people, etc). Good luck

 

[abcxyz0123]

i think if you didnt care about what 2 letters you had after your name, it would be smarter if you were a competitive m.d. appicant to apply D.O. if you were sure about derm. becuase there are d.o. programs that are restricted to only d.o.'s, so you know that your competition would be that much less if you knew u were a top d.o. matriculant.

 

[MadHopsMD]

I am a 2nd year DO student and think that I can give you a pretty concrete answer on this. There are around 15,000 MD applicants and 300 MD Derm spots. There are less then 3,000 DO applicants and only around 18-23 DO Derm spots per year. You can do the math, but as you can see it is extremely competative to get into from either side of the fence. If you think that you are going to want an extremely competative residency such as Derm, you are likely better off going to a US MD school. Being a US MD is only a start though, you better be one of the best applicants in the country to even think about derm (ie top board scores, grades, research with publications, know the right people, etc). Good luck

holy jebus!

 

[MossPoh]

Yes they learn the same material. It is as competitive if not more. Osteopathic residencies are similiar to allopathic....there are ones that are complete crap and ones that are fantastic with everything inbetween. They will train you in similiar stuff though....they are monitored and approved just like allopathic residencies are...If you are set on Derm I'd probably stick with allopathic though. I have no problems with osteopathic but I think the (slightly) increased odds of getting the allopathic residency are probably worth it in the end. If someone shows statistics or evidence proving me wrong then go with them...I don't claim to be an expert on this.

 

[Taus]

I always wondered this also. Are there Derm residencies ONLY DO's can apply to. There must be, in DO teaching hospitals. No?

Yes, there are DO-only residencies. There really aren't many DO-only hospitals anymore though. They likely wouldn't be in a MD schools main affiliated hospital (unless they are dually accreditted), but many hospitals have both DO and MD residencies in them (or at least a lot of MD's working at the hospital where the DO residency exists....after all ...95% of US docs are MD)

 

[Taus]

holy jebus!

remember...its a pretty self-selective crowd....most people without the stats won't even apply...but there are still more applicants then seats for Derm

 

[Cookie143]

Considering you posted in another thread that you have not even applied to schools as of yet, I think the issue is not exactly pressing for you. Get into any med schools first, and then you can decide which one would be the best option. Right now you have zero options to consider.

No I have not yet applied but I would like advice on this issue because I know dermatology is what I want to pursue. Therefore, if the likelihood of a career in dermatology is greater in the MD or DO field, I will pursue whichever field has a greater likelihood of reaching my dreams.

 

[Cookie143]

Yes they learn the same material. It is as competitive if not more. Osteopathic residencies are similiar to allopathic....there are ones that are complete crap and ones that are fantastic with everything inbetween. They will train you in similiar stuff though....they are monitored and approved just like allopathic residencies are...If you are set on Derm I'd probably stick with allopathic though. I have no problems with osteopathic but I think the (slightly) increased odds of getting the allopathic residency are probably worth it in the end. If someone shows statistics or evidence proving me wrong then go with them...I don't claim to be an expert on this.

yes i am definitely postive about dermatology (personal reasons/life experiences etc)

 

[MadHopsMD]

No I have not yet applied but I would like advice on this issue because I know dermatology is what I want to pursue. Therefore, if the likelihood of a career in dermatology is greater in the MD or DO field, I will pursue whichever field has a greater likelihood of reaching my dreams.

Your question was a valid one. You dont have to defend it.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Your question was a valid one. You dont have to defend it.

Yep, nothing wrong with looking two steps ahead.

 

[Law2Doc]

Yep, nothing wrong with looking two steps ahead.

It depends. If he's only going to get into DO, it doesn't really matter which route has better odds.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I am a 2nd year DO student and think that I can give you a pretty concrete answer on this. There are around 15,000 MD applicants and 300 MD Derm spots. There are less then 3,000 DO applicants and only around 18-23 DO Derm spots per year. You can do the math, but as you can see it is extremely competative to get into from either side of the fence. If you think that you are going to want an extremely competative residency such as Derm, you are likely better off going to a US MD school. Being a US MD is only a start though, you better be one of the best applicants in the country to even think about derm (ie top board scores, grades, research with publications, know the right people, etc). Good luck

I think you have your applicant number mixed up with application. As of last year, there are enough spots for 75% of MD dermatology applicants.

Number of Applicants 366 (U.S. Seniors)
Applicants per position 1.16
Mean USMLE Step 1 Score 233
Mean Contiguous Ranks 9.0, 3.9
Percent AOA 49
Percent with publications 80
Percent with research projects 95
Number of Positions in Main Match
Dermatology
316

(http://www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf)

 

[Taus]

I think you have your applicant number mixed up with application. As of last year, there are enough spots for 75% of MD dermatology applicants.

Number of Applicants 366 (U.S. Seniors)
Applicants per position 1.16
Mean USMLE Step 1 Score 233
Mean Contiguous Ranks 9.0, 3.9
Percent AOA 49
Percent with publications 80
Percent with research projects 95
Number of Positions in Main Match
Dermatology
316

(http://www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf)

I meant applicants in the match OVERALL....those who seek derm are a pretty self-selective bunch....

 

[Pinkertinkle]

It depends. If he's only going to get into DO, it doesn't really matter which route has better odds.

That's far from the only outcome, please don't take this thread off topic.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I meant applicants in the match OVERALL....those who seek derm are a pretty self-selective bunch....

That they are, but I think people here tend to overhype how hard derm is to get into.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think you have your applicant number mixed up with application. As of last year, there are enough spots for 75% of MD dermatology applicants.

Number of Applicants 366 (U.S. Seniors)
Applicants per position 1.16
Mean USMLE Step 1 Score 233
Mean Contiguous Ranks 9.0, 3.9
Percent AOA 49
Percent with publications 80
Percent with research projects 95
Number of Positions in Main Match
Dermatology
316

(http://www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf)

As a prior poster indicated, there is a huge amount of "self selection" for derm. Most people who know they don't have a prayer don't apply, even if they want it. Schools tend to have good advising arms that nudge people away from paths they won't get.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Are the publications listed above during med school years or undergrad or both?

It says
"Other characteristics of
interest include membership in the medical student honor society Alpha Omega Alpha, the existence
of applicant-authored publications, and research experience.

These are self-reported data
and may include abstracts, poster sessions and invited national or regional presentations. It is
likely that the publications vary widely in quality and significance. Some residency programs
may independently verify and even review publications for applicants in whom they have an
interest, but most probably do not."

I believe any publication counts (med school or undergrad), even abstracts. I speculate much fewer have first author journal articles.

 

[Law2Doc]

It says
"Other characteristics of
interest include membership in the medical student honor society Alpha Omega Alpha, the existence
of applicant-authored publications, and research experience.

These are self-reported data
and may include abstracts, poster sessions and invited national or regional presentations. It is
likely that the publications vary widely in quality and significance. Some residency programs
may independently verify and even review publications for applicants in whom they have an
interest, but most probably do not."

I believe any publication counts (med school or undergrad), even abstracts. I speculate much fewer have first author journal articles.

From what I've heard, you list them all, but more recent ones always get greater weight. Quite a few people take time (a year) off during med school to research if they are truly serious about derm.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

It depends. If he's only going to get into DO, it doesn't really matter which route has better odds.

A person who wants it badly enough, will take time off if they need to, do a post-bacc if need be, get an MCAT tutor and take the Kaplan or TPR course if they have to, take a year and study for the MCAT, put in more volunteer hours, get more clinical experience, and do some interesting EC's to get to MD. I don't believe that anyone is "only going to get into DO" if they're determined to be MD. The OP wants advice so he/she doesn't spend the time and money on applying to DO schools when he/she can reroute that time and money to being a more competitive MD applicant.

 

[Law2Doc]

A person who wants it badly enough, will take time off if they need to, do a post-bacc if need be, get an MCAT tutor and take the Kaplan or TPR course if they have to, take a year and study for the MCAT, put in more volunteer hours, get more clinical experience, and do some interesting EC's to get to MD. I don't believe that anyone is "only going to get into DO" if they're determined to be MD. The OP wants advice so he/she doesn't spend the time and money on applying to DO schools when he/she can reroute that time and money to being a more competitive MD applicant.

In another thread s/he was inquiring if it is still timely to apply this year. That question alone suggests to me that taking time off isn't really the OP's game plan. But I totally agree with your post.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

From what I've heard, you list them all, but more recent ones always get greater weight. Quite a few people take time (a year) off during med school to research if they are truly serious about derm.

Right, the most significant would be first author papers in decent journals, preferably in a relevant field and during medical school. Middle authorships, abstracts, undergrad research will be given less weight. But for purposes of this survey, anything and everything is a pretty much a publication.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

In another thread s/he was inquiring if it is still timely to apply this year. That question alone suggests to me that taking time off isn't really the OP's game plan. But I totally agree with your post.

I don't think its our responsibility to track the OP's post history and give unsolicited advice.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

From what I've heard, you list them all, but more recent ones always get greater weight. Quite a few people take time (a year) off during med school to research if they are truly serious about derm.

a. Really? I doubt that. Very few people take a year off in med school unless it is for personal/academic reasons.

b. Less than 5% of dermatologists are DOs.* Go MD if you want derm.

c. It is really hard for a pre-med to be sure of their chosen specialty, especially one like derm. Even with extensive clinical experience medicine just looks different from this side of the tracks.

*https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...version67.pdf&prd_id=160&prv_id=190&pdf_id=67

 

[Taus]

a. Really? I doubt that. Very few people take a year off in med school unless it is for personal/academic reasons.

b. Less than 5% of dermatologists are DOs.* Go MD if you want derm.

c. It is really hard for a pre-med to be sure of their chosen specialty, especially one like derm. Even with extensive clinical experience medicine just looks different from this side of the tracks.

*https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...version67.pdf&prd_id=160&prv_id=190&pdf_id=67

True, but only 5% of US docs are DO's....so 5% in a specialty is actually a 1:1 ratio

That being said...if you want Derm....easier from an MD school...

 

[Law2Doc]

a. Really? I doubt that. Very few people take a year off in med school unless it is for personal/academic reasons.

This is inaccurate. Taking a research year is actually not unheard of, particularly for folks seeking some of the most competitive routes and feel the need to improve their credentials. Thus particularly you see this for derm. Toward the end of first year, you will get a ton of brochures for various programs and projects you can apply to, if you are interested. In med school, you will see a few people from the year ahead dropping back into your second year after taking a year off for research. You likely see more of this in the more research oriented schools, but it occurs and has nothing to do with personal or academic reasons.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

This is inaccurate. Taking a research year is actually not unheard of, particularly for folks seeking some of the most competitive routes and feel the need to improve their credentials. Thus particularly you see this for derm. Toward the end of first year, you will get a ton of brochures for various programs and projects you can apply to, if you are interested. In med school, you will see a few people from the year ahead dropping back into your second year after taking a year off for research.

I would estimate at about 6-8%, and mostly the ones who want derm, rads, ENT, etc...

 

[Cookie143]

I will be applying for the class of 2008. I agree that it is far too late to apply now. Would it make a difference if I started dermatological research during my year off (I do have an opportunity to do so)? Or would admissions frown at the fact that I already have my mind set on a specialty prior to actually enrolling?

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I will be applying for the class of 2008. I agree that it is far too late to apply now. Would it make a difference if I started dermatological research during my year off (I do have an opportunity to do so)? Or would admissions frown at the fact that I already have my mind set on a specialty prior to actually enrolling?

I think you should do it, scientific research is scientific research regardless of field and won't be looked down upon by adcoms. Unless you indicate to them that you only have interest in dermatology, they won't read too far into it.

 

[lublufsb]

What is so appealing about dermatology besides money/work hours? what procedures do they do that makes their job so appealing?

 

[Law2Doc]

What is so appealing about dermatology besides money/work hours? what procedures do they do that makes their job so appealing?

For the most part its a lifestyle field. Good hours, little call, most of your patients aren't terminal, lifelong recurrent skin issues make for lots of repeat business. And the intentionally managed scarcity of dermatologists keeps the salaries high.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

This is inaccurate. Taking a research year is actually not unheard of, particularly for folks seeking some of the most competitive routes and feel the need to improve their credentials. Thus particularly you see this for derm. Toward the end of first year, you will get a ton of brochures for various programs and projects you can apply to, if you are interested. In med school, you will see a few people from the year ahead dropping back into your second year after taking a year off for research. You likely see more of this in the more research oriented schools, but it occurs and has nothing to do with personal or academic reasons.

Do you know anyone that has done this? All of the people I know who have taken a year off have had minor crisises in their life or psyche.

Everyone I know that went into or is going into competitive fields just studied hard and went straight through...

 

[Law2Doc]

Do you know anyone that has done this?

Yes. When a field is that competitive, folks do what they have to to stand out, even if it costs a year.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

What is so appealing about dermatology besides money/work hours? what procedures do they do that makes their job so appealing?

If you were not already being sarcastic, the first half of your statment pretty much sums it up.

 

[lublufsb]

For the most part its a lifestyle field. Good hours, little call, most of your patients aren't terminal, lifelong recurrent skin issues make for lots of repeat business. And the intentionally managed scarcity of dermatologists keeps the salaries high.

thanks. so there isn't any procedure or part of the job that dermatologists are really passionate about?

 

[lublufsb]

If you were not already being sarcastic, the first half of your statment pretty much sums it up.

i am never sarcastic

 

[Pinkertinkle]

thanks. so there isn't any procedure or part of the job that dermatologists are really passionate about?

There is MOHS micrographic surgery.

 

[NonTradMed]

One of the few reasons I think makes it worth it to do MD over DO is if you wanted a very competitive residency. Derm is certainly at the top of the most competitive residency so I say aim for MD.

 

[Law2Doc]

thanks. so there isn't any procedure or part of the job that dermatologists are really passionate about?

I'm sure there is some appeal, but if you are excited about doing procedures, surgeries etc., there are quite a few more "hands on" fields folks with derm credentials could choose from.

 

[Shinken]

DOs and MDs learn the same in residencies (I can't believe we still ask questions about this...)

For example, the DO derm residency at Richmonds Heights hospital in Ohio takes 6 DOs a year and is closely linked with the derm residency at Case Western Reserve U. Check it out: http://www.uhhsrh.org/

Also, in case you're wondering while perusing the website, the reason the DO residency is 3 years instead of the regular 4 is because you need to complete an osteopathic internship before applying for the derm residency, so in the end the training is still 4 years.