Devils advocate: why is it okay to crap on carribean schools but not DO?

[CidHighwind]

---

Members don't see this ad.

If where someone trained truly doesn’t matter and patients don’t care, what does it matter which school one goes to? Most people from both schools go into primary care, and the majority of carribean students still end up matching somewhere. And with carribean, they have “MD” at the end of their names, something that DO students, for whatever reason, are actually willing to pay money for.

 

[allantois]

 

[Doctoscope]

DO schools require an MCAT. Carib schools do not.

DO schools don't accept an irresponsible, unsustainable number of students with the sole intention of sucking every dollar they can out of the students, then failing most of them out. Their business model literally depends on this.

Students from DO schools don't want the title "MD." They want the competitive advantage MD schools get during the match. If DO/MD had equal chances at residencies based on performance, then I guarantee 99% of DO students won't give 2 s***s about their title.

After all is done, no one gives a crap about whether you're MD/DO/IMG as a practicing physician. Caribbean schools are "looked down upon" because the way they handle their business and students is extremely unethical and downright predatory. Also, a lot of students fall into these traps because THEY'RE the ones who care about the "MD" title. You cannot make the argument that the Carib "MD" title gives the same advantage as US grads, and that's why they go Caribbean, since every available statistic shows that that's objectively false.

51% is still majority. Still doesn't mean a 51% match rate is good (Carib match rate is obviously higher than 51%, but still far worse than US MD/DO).

 

[deleted859689]

Carib grads that get residencies are doctors too. it's going to the carib that's the problem.

 

[ciestar]

Because carib schools are predatory. They accept so many unqualified applicants with the sole intention of taking their money. They know that most of their matriculants won’t make it through but that doesn’t matter.

 

[lolhelp]

DO schools require an MCAT. Carib schools do not.

DO schools don't accept an irresponsible, unsustainable number of students with the sole intention of sucking every dollar they can out of the students, then failing most of them out. Their business model literally depends on this.

Students from DO schools don't want the title "MD." They want the competitive advantage MD schools get during the match. If DO/MD had equal chances at residencies based on performance, then I guarantee 99% of DO students won't give 2 s***s about their title.

After all is done, no one gives a crap about whether you're MD/DO/IMG as a practicing physician. Caribbean schools are "looked down upon" because the way they handle their business and students is extremely unethical and downright predatory. Also, a lot of students fall into these traps because THEY'RE the ones who care about the "MD" title. You cannot make the argument that the Carib "MD" title gives the same advantage as US grads, and that's why they go Caribbean, since every available statistic shows that that's objectively false.

51% is still majority. Still doesn't mean a 51% match rate is good (Carib match rate is obviously higher than 51%, but still far worse than US MD/DO).

Well stated! Some students I know have gone to the Caribbean because they just didn’t go through undergrad with the right mindset and genuinely screwed up. But once they get in they are committed to working hard and taking it seriously/felt like they were given a “second chance.” Those are the ones who succeed. Then there are those who got in without an MCAT, good GPA, interview skills or ECs. They fail their boards and are left in debt and depressed. I work (in the medical field) with someone like this and to be honest, they should not be a doctor. They do not have the stamina, focus, or skillset to be a responsible physician. This is what makes me so mad - Caribbean schools should not be allowed to graduate students able to practice in the US. They take too many risks with unqualified students and put future patients potentially in harms way. This isn’t a profession where we need to make short-cuts for those who do not have the aptitude for being a physician.

 

[CidHighwind]

DO schools require an MCAT. Carib schools do not.

DO schools don't accept an irresponsible, unsustainable number of students with the sole intention of sucking every dollar they can out of the students, then failing most of them out. Their business model literally depends on this.

Students from DO schools don't want the title "MD." They want the competitive advantage MD schools get during the match. If DO/MD had equal chances at residencies based on performance, then I guarantee 99% of DO students won't give 2 s***s about their title.

After all is done, no one gives a crap about whether you're MD/DO/IMG as a practicing physician. Caribbean schools are "looked down upon" because the way they handle their business and students is extremely unethical and downright predatory. Also, a lot of students fall into these traps because THEY'RE the ones who care about the "MD" title. You cannot make the argument that the Carib "MD" title gives the same advantage as US grads, and that's why they go Caribbean, since every available statistic shows that that's objectively false.

51% is still majority. Still doesn't mean a 51% match rate is good (Carib match rate is obviously higher than 51%, but still far worse than US MD/DO).

The business model of the carribean schools is to allow anyone in who wants to come. If they can pay, they have the opportunity to be a doctor. Their mindset of cutting a lot of their students is something USMD schools did “back in the day”. Also I think the match rate is around the low 80’s for those that finish IIRC. Not amazing but it’s not like their grads aren’t practicing medicine.

The “DOs will pay for the MD” comment is based off of one carribean school offering people with a DO degree the chance to have an MD. The fact that it’s still around means they have people that are interested.

 

[Doctoscope]

The business model of the carribean schools is to allow anyone in who wants to come. If they can pay, they have the opportunity to be a doctor. Their mindset of cutting a lot of their students is something USMD schools did “back in the day”. Also I think the match rate is around the low 80’s for those that finish IIRC. Not amazing but it’s not like their grads aren’t practicing medicine.

The “DOs will pay for the MD” comment is based off of one carribean school offering people with a DO degree the chance to have an MD. The fact that it’s still around means they have people that are interested.

So, out of the goodness of their hearts, and DEFINITELY not money, they're letting people who aren't qualified to be doctors in so they can have a shot at their dreams? How nice of them.

 

[CidHighwind]

So, out of the goodness of their hearts, and DEFINITELY not money, they're letting people who aren't qualified to be doctors in so they can have a shot at their dreams? How nice of them.

You think schools everywhere aren’t in the business of making money ? In many countries it’s all about who can pay.

 

[deleted480308]

If where someone trained truly doesn’t matter and patients don’t care, what does it matter which school one goes to? Most people from both schools go into primary care, and the majority of carribean students still end up matching somewhere. And with carribean, they have “MD” at the end of their names, something that DO students, for whatever reason, are actually willing to pay money for.

it’s the risk of not matching, show me a carribean school with >90% match and I’ll tell you it’s worth looking at

DO schools require an MCAT. Carib schools do not.

DO schools don't accept an irresponsible, unsustainable number of students with the sole intention of sucking every dollar they can out of the students, then failing most of them out. Their business model literally depends on this.

Students from DO schools don't want the title "MD." They want the competitive advantage MD schools get during the match. If DO/MD had equal chances at residencies based on performance, then I guarantee 99% of DO students won't give 2 s***s about their title.

After all is done, no one gives a crap about whether you're MD/DO/IMG as a practicing physician. Caribbean schools are "looked down upon" because the way they handle their business and students is extremely unethical and downright predatory. Also, a lot of students fall into these traps because THEY'RE the ones who care about the "MD" title. You cannot make the argument that the Carib "MD" title gives the same advantage as US grads, and that's why they go Caribbean, since every available statistic shows that that's objectively false.

51% is still majority. Still doesn't mean a 51% match rate is good (Carib match rate is obviously higher than 51%, but still far worse than US MD/DO).

Carrib match rate IS NOT “obviously higher than 51%”. I pulled enrollment numbers in another thread against a match list announcement and one the big 4 was sitting near 50, which makes the totality likely below 50.

 

[Doctoscope]

it’s the risk of not matching, show me a carribean school with >90% match and I’ll tell you it’s worth looking at

Carrib match rate IS NOT “obviously higher than 51%”. I pulled enrollment numbers in another thread against a match list announcement and one the big 4 was sitting near 50, which makes the totality likely below 50.

Jesus that's bad. I was under the impression it was like low 70s after you "survived" their first 2 year attrition.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Dude have you read the DO forum? All we do is crap on our schools. There’s just more to crap on at Carib schools.

For instance, it’s easy to crap on the the outpatient rural FM rotation at a DO school with a checked out preceptor who ignores you. That is until you realize some Carib students would literally fight you for the chance to have a rotation in the same state as the last one.

Also, the reasons to gripe about DO schools is crazy tuition for generally inferior clinical rotations and less/zero research opportunities compared to USMDs. The reason to hate on a Caribbean school is that their business model is contingent upon you not graduating and being forced to live in a third world country for two years.

 

[gonnif]

51% is still majority. Still doesn't mean a 51% match rate is good (Carib match rate is obviously higher than 51%, but still far worse than US MD/DO).

Actually it is demonstrably less than that, at about 46% of those who start medical school, match into ANY residency as my analysis of SGU, perhaps the "best" of the Carib schools, will show. Please note these numbers come from the SGU website.

SGU reports that analyzes that 93% place (not match) in residency

1) Enrollment and Residency:
Enrollment, MCAT & GPA Statistics | SGU Medical School
SGU SOM reports just under 6300 total enrollment in an MD program. This would mean roughly that 1600 students a year are MS1-MS4 or approximately 800 students a term. (whether students are in a dual degree and/or take more than 4 years to graduate, on average, this number will remain about the same). Of these 75% are US citizens and 17% are US PR, so 87% total US. Additionally 11% of total enrollment are Canadian, though many . It is reasonable to say then that about 90% of entering Students (about 1450) would likely seek medical residency in USA. SGU Reports that 961 have “US Residencies in 2019.“ So what has happened to these 500 others?

2) Attrition:
https://www.aamc.org/system/files/r...tesandattritionratesofu.s.medicalstudents.pdf
From 1993-1994 through 2012-2013, more medical students left medical school for nonacademic than for academic reasons,... The total national attrition rate remained relatively stable at an average of 3.3% over those 20 years.

So US MD schools have a 3.3% attrition rate, meaning 96.7% ultimately earn their degree. For SGU, they report “6.1% attrition rate for the class entering in August of 2017.” Assuming, that this up to date, it would mean of our 1450 Anticipated US Residency bound students, 90 dropped out after the first 2 years, leaving at least 1360 to continue. Also with the way that SGU reports this, we cant tell if any took leaves, needed another year, dropped out later, etc. We can only speculate that fewer additional percent dropped out in years 3-4. For purposes of comparison, lets assume a conservative total attrition of 10% for any entering class. With a weaker overall class (MCAT average of 497, cGPA of 3.3, sGPA of 3.1), and living overseas, 10% would be very conservative. So about 1225 would be left in our US-bound residency cohort

3) Medical Residency:

Graduate Success | St. George's University
SGU proudly states that 961 graduates got placed(not matched) in residencies. Now placement means via NRMP, post-match SOAP, any pre-match positions, openings that occur during the cycle Looking at their data further, 935 were placed in US, with others in Canada, UK, and a few other countries. So of the estimated 1225 graduates who sought US residencies, 935 got a slot, or about 76%. SGU also reports that on average 29% get slots via non-match methods. That would mean 664 graduates matched. So of the estimate 1450 US-residency bound students who start SGU, only 664 or 46% matched into a residency slot. That increases to about 65% who get ANY residency slot.

In sum, assuming 10% class attrition, the “success rate” of SGU is at best is 65%

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

Which Caribbean school do you attend?

 

[Cornfed101]

It's not just the match rates and the predatory nature of the schools though... I will quote myself from another thread:

We had a rep from Ross University come to our school and say that when the power shuts off (which is a frequent occurrence) it builds character and helps you to be a leg above your mainland counterparts. I wasn't convinced...

 

[CyrilFiggis]

I think we’ve successfully fed the troll.

 

[Rachapkis]

A distinction needs to be made here: people are justly criticizing Caribbean medical schools, not the doctors that make it out of those schools, correct?

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

A distinction needs to be made here: people are justly criticizing Caribbean medical schools, not the doctors that make it out of those schools, correct?

Can you point to any posts criticizing Caribbean grads?

 

[KnightDoc]

A distinction needs to be made here: people are justly criticizing Caribbean medical schools, not the doctors that make it out of those schools, correct?

Well .... without the people who send money to those schools, they wouldn't exist, so .....

Yes, the criticism is of the schools' business model, not the students themselves, but it's the students' desperation for a shortcut that creates the situation, so, no, the students are not without blame here.

And nobody wishes terrible outcomes for them, but, unfortunately, that happens a disproportionate amount of the time when people don't heed the advice. And that's even before we get to desperate people with issues in their background that will make it impossible for them to ever get a US residency, no matter how well they do in school.

 

[gonnif]

If where someone trained truly doesn’t matter and patients don’t care, what does it matter which school one goes to? Most people from both schools go into primary care, and the majority of carribean students still end up matching somewhere. And with carribean, they have “MD” at the end of their names, something that DO students, for whatever reason, are actually willing to pay money for.

I think we’ve successfully fed the troll.

Do not assume that this is a troll. The targeting marketing at these students and premed advisors is pervasive and does not accurately reflect the risks of going to a carib med school can be.

it isnt that the carib produces thousands of successful graduates a year. It is that they leave at least an equal or higher number without degrees or residency slots and they do so with virtually no financial risks to the schools. As an advisor I can not recommend any student consider $200,000+ risk without exhausting all other options first.

with either US MD or DO, you have a 96%-97% graduation rate followed by a 98%-99% residency placement rate 94%-95% of which is match.
For all IMGs, the match rate is about 50% . However, we have no good statistics on actual attrition rates. From my previous analysis of enrollment, demographics and residency placement for SGU, about 1450 US-bound medical residency students start as M1 but at most 1225 graduate. Yet only 935 got ANY residency slot. Of that 935, about 30% got a non-match placement
100% 1450 start
90% 1225 graduate
18% 270 place/non match
46% 665 match

So of the 1450 US-residency bound students who start M1, only 665 or 46% match. At best 65% of starting class gets ANY residency slot

 

[BlueLion]

The question has been thoroughly answered. Sorry OP that you didnt get the support you wanted to hear but facts are facts and they don't care about anyone's feelings.

 

[gyngyn]

Closing