Did Anyone Watch 60-Mins?

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clement

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An internist lecturer told us about a 60-Minutes piece on antidepressants. I googled it and found this: http://www.minnpost.com/second-opin...pressants-report-may-be-explosive-its-not-new
Is the correspondent's last name a coincidence?! Also did anyone of you watch this?
In a similar vein, will this type of publicity change the lawsuit landscape? Are psychiatrists who only do psychotherapy for depression then any more or less liable in case of suicide? Are those who only treat with meds going to be held liable for side effects with the rationale that you're causing harm to the person with little scientific benefit? (I guess this would be less likely on the basis of suicide being a much bigger risk than SSRI side effect even if studies suggest suboptimal efficacy)
 
I'm part of a hypnosis BB that Kirsch is part of as well, and amusingly this 60 minutes piece has kicked up all the usual turf war stuff (though Kirsch doesn't participate in that, thankfully). The papers from Kirsch have been around for a while, and the criticisms approach from multiple perspectives including the weaknesses of meta-analyses. It basically questions whether antidepressants are effective only due to placebo, but it's far from changing a standard of care, which is the legal standard to which you will be held. So little changes are expected at this point.
 
Speaking of meta-things, what sorta bothers me is that the more we talk about antidepressants being ineffective, the more ineffective they are going to become. I understand all the scientific and ethical quandaries of prescribing placebos, but just for a second, consider the possibility that SSRIs are all a bunch of sugar pills. (harp music starts here) Folks come in to treatment with depression, you give them a pill, they get hopeful, they get activated, they agree to come to therapy (which we believe is pretty helpful) because you told them they really needed to or the "meds wouldn't work as well" (and they wouldn't have come in at all unless they thought you were going to pick up your pen and write a script). They come in 6 months later with some symptoms coming back, and you bump up the prozac from 20mg to 40mg. They get hopeful again that they are going to feel better, and lo and behold, they do. They even start feeling better faster than they would have with simple regression to the mean, because they expected to feel better. They expected to do so because the seemingly caring psychiatrist spent 30 minutes talking to them once a month, telling them they have a good chance of feeling better with a little bit of work, and making sure they went to therapy (which they half do just to make you happy, and just to prove "they aren't dependent on pills," which of course they aren't). Without the antidepressant, they never come see you. No insurance company will pay them to see you, at least not regularly if you're not their active therapist. And maybe they never go to therapy, because if there's one thing we know about folks with depression, is that they are good at all-or-nothing thinking. And they stay depressed.

We don't talk about hypertension or diabetes or COPD as biopsychosocial diseases. The placebo effect directly targets the psycho part of that model. It's simply more important in psychiatry, and I'm not sure it's a valid comparator. Every psych study with placebo should also have a wait list comparison. Because in the real world, THAT'S the comparison. If Prozac helps 65% of the time, placebo helps 55% of the time, and the wait list helps 25% of the time, then gosh darn it, giving someone an antidepressant and getting them into treatment is pretty effective. I don't have to treat 10 people to help one person get better, I have to treat about 3 people. You can't apply the same logic to diabetes to the same degree. Does that make our specialty a non-medical, snake oil specialty? I don't give a **** what Tom Cruise thinks. I am happy when my patient comes back and is feeling better and wants to keep working with me to feel better.

Now, I don't believe antidepressants are sugar pills, and we have plenty of very good studies that show how helpful they can be, and there are plenty of lousy studies that show they don't, and only some overlap of the two study types and outcomes. But I am pretty sure that the more the antimedicaton crowd tells people they don't work, the more they are going to not work. And that makes me sad. I guess I should go take my Wellbutrin.
 
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Agreed. What was one survey Medline or somebody did recently in which they were expressing surprise at the number of physicians who told patients they felt they were going to get better outside of any real evidence that this was the case? I tell people I think they're going to get better all the time. It might be blowing some sunshine, but that sunshine is evidence based. 🙂
 
I just saw an abstract in JAMA (hooray free student subscription) from the Arch. of Gen. Psych that showed something most people in psych I've talked to always suspect. They did some sort of fancy stats analysis that shows that there are 2 trajectories in antidepressant response, a "Non-responder" and a "Responder". The non-responders have significantly worse outcomes than those on placebo, and the responders have significantly better than those on placebo. But when you lump all the people together it looks like the antidepressants are neutral. They use this to conclude that there are probably some sort of biomarkers or underylying genetics that could be discovered to figure out which category patients are going to fall into.
 
It would be interesting to develop some sort of scale to rate people's optimism with respect to treatment at the outset and then see if that matches up with responders vs non- responders in any significant way.
 
Speaking of meta-things, what sorta bothers me is that the more we talk about antidepressants being ineffective, the more ineffective they are going to become..... Now, I don't believe antidepressants are sugar pills, .

Its your belief that is the magic ingredient so bringing the placebo/nocebo effect up directly when you prescribe them should only enhance that in practice. After all if the patients who are aware of the placebo effect are the ones you are worried about, then making sure they don't feel you are treating them like a mug that can only help.

Antibiotics starting to become ineffective is probably a good and a bad comparitor. Anyway, people armed with the knowledge that by taking them for frivolous reasons they are weakening themselves (or strengthening the bugs or whatever) still want them and poor doctors still prescribe them.

Just my thoughts.
 
It would be interesting to develop some sort of scale to rate people's optimism with respect to treatment at the outset and then see if that matches up with responders vs non- responders in any significant way.

Knotty one given these are depressed people....worth a go though...

EDIT: What I mean is to get something meaningful at the end of such a study there would need to exist a subset of people who are more depressed but more optomistic about a positive result than just equally depressed but more optomistic and by extension a handy group who were less depressed but more pessimistic. I'm not saying its not possible though.
 
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Its your belief that is the magic ingredient so bringing the placebo/nocebo effect up directly when you prescribe them should only enhance that in practice. After all if the patients who are aware of the placebo effect are the ones you are worried about, then making sure they don't feel you are treating them like a mug that can only help.

I think the bigger worry is that I will just never get to see some folks if more people in the community get the (incorrect) message that antidepressants are no better than placebo. In most systems, unfortunately, you only get to see the psychiatrist for med management. If folks don't want meds, I will never see them. Some people wrongly equate placebo with nothing, which is particularly relevant in mental health.
 
I just saw an abstract in JAMA (hooray free student subscription) from the Arch. of Gen. Psych that showed something most people in psych I've talked to always suspect. They did some sort of fancy stats analysis that shows that there are 2 trajectories in antidepressant response, a "Non-responder" and a "Responder". The non-responders have significantly worse outcomes than those on placebo, and the responders have significantly better than those on placebo. But when you lump all the people together it looks like the antidepressants are neutral. They use this to conclude that there are probably some sort of biomarkers or underylying genetics that could be discovered to figure out which category patients are going to fall into.

Link: http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/68/12/1227.pdf That's pretty neat, thanks for sharing!
 
I sat in a grand rounds, and I forgot the lecturers name but he was a guy on the forefront of antidepressant research saying that almost all meds for whatever you can think of (high cholesterol, BP, etc) if put in the similar statistical crunch would've had about the same results.

The fact of the matter is a lot of meds fail in initial studies, and then when they finally get one right, that's the one they push to the FDA, antidepressants or not, at least per him.
 
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