Did I kill all hope of getting a PhD? PLEASE HELP!

[zgotts]

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Not sure if this is the forum to post this, but Neuroscience is somewhat similar to Clinical Psych, and i am trying to get a PhD, so here it goes...

I came into college a pretty confused kid, unsure of what I really wanted to do with my life. I took a Neuroscience course, some History and Government courses, and some English courses. Part of me wanted to be a writer, part of me wanted to be a neuroscientist.

Unfortunately that lasted until junior year, and such confusion prevented me from focusing on getting good grades. Then, even in my senior year I haven't been doing top notch (C+ in Biochem...ouch!). I don't think it's so much a matter of ability, I know I can perform at a high level, and I have showed that in some courses.

However, looking back at a GPA of 3.1 (that is what I will likely have when i graduate in May), I am really unsure if I am even cut out for this. I can get A's in easier courses, but when it comes to the real tough ones, I can only seem to pull off a B+ at best. On the flip side of that, last summer I worked in a lab at Brigham and Women's Hospital, and even though it wasn't in Neuroscience, I loved it. I have also been doing research this semester at school.

Now, I know research can often overcome GPA, but one semester and one summer of work won't cut it.

With very few A's, should I completely rule out any top PhD programs, even if I were to do 2 years of research after I graduate?

I guess I'm just scared/confused, and wondering if I should start trying my hand in another field.

Any advice is MUCH MUCH appreciated.

 

[erg923]

Top Ph.D. programs in neuroscience are often times just as competitive and selective as clinical programs. Even with good research and a strong GRE, a 3.1 is not going to be very impressive. I might add that even in neuroscience, an important factor in choosing a program is fitting with a professors research. Much as in clinical, there is no need to think that one needs to shoot for the big ten schools or Ivy league to get good training and be a productive researcher. Might want to reexamine the level of schools you are considering applying to.

I think it would be a "long shot" at best at the top neuroscience programs, but you would have better odds at medium to low level programs. The other option is getting a masters first to raise your GPA and show you are capable of graduate level work, AND/OR working for a couple years as a Research Assistant, building up your CV and research skills. Even after this, its is still a "long shot" at the nations top neuroscience programs; with a an acceptance rate of 5-10% everybody is going to be a long shot for those programs.

 

[zgotts]

thanks for the response.

do you think re-taking courses I got C's in could potentially help me out in the GPA department, as opposed to going for a Master's?

 

[TMB8579]

thanks for the response.

do you think re-taking courses I got C's in could potentially help me out in the GPA department, as opposed to going for a Master's?

You mention that you plan on doing about 2 yrs. of research after graduating...so why not re-take courses during those 2 years as well?. In 2 years you could retake atleast 4 classes (1 per semester) and I'm sure getting rid of some C's would really improve your GPA. Do the math and figure out how many classes you need to re-take and what grades you need to earn in order to bring your GPA to a 3.5 or higher. That along with 2 years of research experience would definitely make you competitive (as well as your letter of rec. and personal statement, ofcourse!). Most of all, if you're really passionate about it, which you appear to be, don't let this hurdle make you quit!

 

[erg923]

It certainly couldn't hurt assuming its doesn't postpone your graduation. If you are close so any of your psychology or neuroscience professors, speak with them, they can give you more specifics.

 

[zgotts]

well I certainly wouldn't put off graduating, I would retake courses at a different university (I already plan on taking Physics and Calc this summer- I have not taken either of them yet).

I did some math, and if I took 2 semesters of Physics, 2 sem of Calc, and then re-did 2 semesters of Intro Bio (got a C) and 1 sem of Biochem (got a C+), i would still only be at a 3.35 with all A's. of course, that is if I included the C's in the total GPA. not sure if the new grades would replace the old ones or just be added on. if they were to replace the old grades, i'm sure at be pretty close to a 3.5, if not above.

anyways, enough with the math. i think you guys are right, it is worth pushing on, and i think even though it is a long shot to get into a solid program, it is doable. having just read my letter of recommendation from my advisor at BWH i could not be happier. he could not have given me higher praise, both as capable scientist and as a person in general. coming from a hospital of that prestige, that says a lot.

tomorrow i will speak with my current research advisor/Genetics professor and see what he has to say about the matter.

thanks again for the advice.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Glad you found us! Stick around, as there is a lot of cross over at some programs, so you might find some stuff of interest. I always like hearing what people are into, as I often get sucked up into my work and forget everything else. 😀

 

[deleted190534]

well I certainly wouldn't put off graduating, I would retake courses at a different university (I already plan on taking Physics and Calc this summer- I have not taken either of them yet).

Just an FYI (which in no way is meant as a deterrent): Retaking the classes will NOT "erase" the prior grade unless you take it at the same university. Just thought you should know before you invest all that time & money. Good luck!

 

[deleted176373]

Not sure if this is the forum to post this, but Neuroscience is somewhat similar to Clinical Psych, and i am trying to get a PhD, so here it goes...

I came into college a pretty confused kid, unsure of what I really wanted to do with my life. I took a Neuroscience course, some History and Government courses, and some English courses. Part of me wanted to be a writer, part of me wanted to be a neuroscientist.

Unfortunately that lasted until junior year, and such confusion prevented me from focusing on getting good grades. Then, even in my senior year I haven't been doing top notch (C+ in Biochem...ouch!). I don't think it's so much a matter of ability, I know I can perform at a high level, and I have showed that in some courses.

However, looking back at a GPA of 3.1 (that is what I will likely have when i graduate in May), I am really unsure if I am even cut out for this. I can get A's in easier courses, but when it comes to the real tough ones, I can only seem to pull off a B+ at best. On the flip side of that, last summer I worked in a lab at Brigham and Women's Hospital, and even though it wasn't in Neuroscience, I loved it. I have also been doing research this semester at school.

Now, I know research can often overcome GPA, but one semester and one summer of work won't cut it.

With very few A's, should I completely rule out any top PhD programs, even if I were to do 2 years of research after I graduate?

I guess I'm just scared/confused, and wondering if I should start trying my hand in another field.

Any advice is MUCH MUCH appreciated.

I am going to interject a little bit of reality here.

1. The 3.1 GPA will not exclude you from top Ph.D. programs in and of itself, however the fact that even as a senior you are still carrying C's is not a good sign and won't be looked at favorably.

2. You stated that you can perform at a high level, but only in the easy courses... Wake up call... THERE ARE NO EASY COURSES IN TOP Ph.D. PROGRAMS. I used to ace things like research methods and stats in my sleep. I recently got a B (barely) in my research methods II class and although I still pull A's in stats, I am fortunate that stats comes easy to me, still I had to make a concerted effort to maintain the A.

3. Graduate school is something you HAVE to believe you are cut out for and destined for... You'll have plenty of time to second guess your intellectual capacity when you get into your program if it's a good one!

4. It's clear that you are still not sure what you want to do with your life, this is the first thing that you want to clear up. After I get off the computer (and writing this) I still have a number of journal articles to read. My weekend will be filled with writing and creating 3 power point presentations and I won't be doing much else. You have to REALLY want this!

5. Going for a Master's degree would probably be more useful than simply repeating undergraduate work and provide you with more opportunities to do research. I believe that working in the field might be superior to either.

Either way, you need to know where you stand on the GRE. If you had a 1550 GRE and a 3.1 GPA, that will play better than a 1000 GRE and a 3.1 GPA. Top programs will require a MINIMUM 1200 GRE and more realistic scores given your GPA would be likely in excess of 1400 to gain admission to top schools.

6. Finally you state that you want to go into a TOP program, but honestly, you haven't worked hard enough to prove that you want it. Look at your competition, it's ridiculous. I'm not trying to be an *** here, but, they are taking candidates in the top programs that most of us have no chance of competing against. People in the top 5% get into the TOP programs.

Are you willing to entertain a program that is not a TOP program but still has a solid reputation?

It's worth pushing on to be sure. I am not trying to dissuade you, but you are going to need a tight package to overcome that GPA. A 3.35 would be close enough to the magic 3.5 to get you looked at by more competitive programs.

Remember for top schools, ideally you would like to do the following:

1. LOTS of research experience
2. Publish or Present
3. More research
4. Undergraduate Thesis (if possible)

You want to separate yourself as much as possible from the herd. Look at all the people who have been rejected (Village of the Dinged post.) Many of these people had stellar credentials and some were not even given interviews at moderately ranked programs. There is not much you can do about your undergraduate education at this point, so now you need to NAIL the rest of the package. A great GRE score, tons of research, great letters of recommendation, a killer personal statement, and as much presenting or professional scholarly involvement you can generate will go a long way to overriding a poor GPA.

Just my 2c,

Mark

 

[myelin]

You haven't "killed all hope," but you do have some work ahead of you to achieve your goal of a PhD.

The numbers (i.e. GPA, GRE) are just as important as LOR, PS, and research fit with the program(s) you apply to. However, numbers can only take you soo far, as what good are perfect marks without social skills? Contacting prospective advisors at the respective schools you plan on applying to would benefit you to show that you're motivated to attain your PhD and that the numbers may not be an accurate representation of your abilities. Use your resources such as the school's websites and email to contact potential professors that you'd like to work with. Let them know that you really want this (if indeed you do).

All too often, I come across individuals who think that you must have perfect numbers to be a PhD. You don't. Judging from your marks, an environment with students with perfect GPAs might not be the best fit for you as you may enter that program already feeling behind due to your GPA.

It's good that you have research experience, as this sets you apart from other applicants. As you stated, you may need more experience, so keep plugging away at it. If you want this, you'll make it happen one way or another. I personally know people with far lower credentials than you who have entered some excellent programs in behavioral neuroscience. I wish you the best 🙂

 

[zgotts]

first off, wow, i really didn't think i would get any response to my post, but i was wrong... thank you for the motivation and responses!

Markp, I think you really laid down the truth with your post. And I certainly do not take it as discouraging. Reality isn't always easy, but it is the only way to realize one's own goals, and that is where i stand.

I think it'd be a waste of time to re-take classes. The focus now is to get A's in my last semester of school. Then get A's in Calc and Physics this summer because I have not yet taken those, but they are requirements. Those A's will at least show that I am more serious now than I was 2 years ago.

Then, do whatever I can to get a spot in a research position. I really would rather not do a Master's program, I think acutally working in the field would be more worth my time. I have applied to a couple places, have yet to hear back, but I will keep trying.

In the end, I really don't know where all this extra effort will take me, but I know it is worth it, if not for actual results, then for personal gain.

Thanks for the help guys, and I must say it is awesome to find a community like this... it definitely helps considering that many of the people around me are NOT going into science/psychology.

 

[MaddieMay]

I was very sick (long story) throughout most of undergrad, and my grades reflected it. Luckily I was at a school where good grades replaced bad if you retook classes. I stayed an extra year and retook 13 classes and cranked my GPA up to something respectable. In my personal statement and in interviews I explain this and while it doesn't make me look like a rock star, I think I manage to look scrappy.

I would also recommend studying your butt off and nailing the GRE.

Many are unable to get RA postions for various reasons, but you can approach someone whose research you're interested in and ask to volunteer. It's rumored that even if that prof doesn't need volunteer help, they'll say, "But Dr. Whatever down the hall might need some help." This gives you material for your CV and you'll be closer to first in line if an RA position becomes available.

 

[EquestriAnn]

I was very sick (long story) throughout most of undergrad, and my grades reflected it. Luckily I was at a school where good grades replaced bad if you retook classes. I stayed an extra year and retook 13 classes and cranked my GPA up to something respectable. In my personal statement and in interviews I explain this and while it doesn't make me look like a rock star, I think I manage to look scrappy.

I would also recommend studying your butt off and nailing the GRE.

Many are unable to get RA postions for various reasons, but you can approach someone whose research you're interested in and ask to volunteer. It's rumored that even if that prof doesn't need volunteer help, they'll say, "But Dr. Whatever down the hall might need some help." This gives you material for your CV and you'll be closer to first in line if an RA position becomes available.

I had the same situation and I got into 4 psych neuroscience programs, not clinical programs though I don't think I'd have a shot at those (plus I don't want to do clinical!). My grades, however, started off very poor but my last two years are above a 3.5 and my last year is a 3.9. I was told that my transrcipt was looked upon favorably because of the drastic upward trend, people understand that freshmen/sophomores are sometimes idiots! That said, I worked my little butt off to make the rest of my application outweigh any bad grades- research experience, letters of rec, statement of purpose, GRE scores, I contacted my potential advisers before applying and I applied to a lot of schools. Getting into grad school is a ton of work, and it's even more work if you're trying to "fix" something, so good luck!

 

[lakan]

hope you don't find it a petty remark, but according to my philosophical training questions that start with "did" only have two possible answers: yes or no. that's why when formulating a question, research question or otherwise - it is better to formulate one which can have a variety of answers. it also reminded me of a joke that i once heard about a national newspaper running a first page story which says: Did Mr. XXX use drugs? and on page 23...No!

good luck anyhow!

 

[deleted176373]

hope you don't find it a petty remark, but according to my philosophical training questions that start with "did" only have two possible answers: yes or no. that's why when formulating a question, research question or otherwise - it is better to formulate one which can have a variety of answers. it also reminded me of a joke that i once heard about a national newspaper running a first page story which says: Did Mr. XXX use drugs? and on page 23...No!

good luck anyhow!

LOL, well I screwed that all up with my long winded response!

No, should have been my answer.

Mark