Did I make a mistake ranking Loyola highly?

[NeurologyHopeful2018]

I know I can't change my rank list now. But I am freaking out...

I ranked Loyola highly due to very positive interview experience. I liked that the program was mostly US grads, some of which are Loyola's graduates and spoke highly of the program. Each faculty during interview day really knew my application and asked very personal questions. I also really liked PD Dr. McCoyd who was very laid back and seemed to really care about resident's well-being. I also prefer Chicago over smaller towns such as Rochester, Iowa City...etc.

However, since rank list due date - I hear more and more horror stories about this program - how it is the worst of Chicago's programs and has a reputation for malignancy.

I feel HORRIBLE now for ranking this program over other solid programs such as U Rochester, UAB, U Iowa, and Indiana.

Can anyone confirm or refute these rumors about the Loyola Neuro program? I might match there - and hopefully my career won't come to a ruin!

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[SheepNeurology]

What's done is done, friend. I'm sure Loyola is a fine program. Have a beer and enjoy the sweet serenity that is 4th year.

 

[drcuddles]

Is it in your top 3? If not then don't worry about it

 

[Avoidthetiger]

As a Loyola Neurology resident (Only returning to SDN today to help with my fellowship application) - and one who did not partake in residency interviews for various reasons - I will stress that while Loyola has many flaws, we as a residency program are not malignant. We have this in our history, but there has been a culture shift under Dr. McCoyd. You will get a good residency experience from Loyola (one that I have compared when I talk to colleagues at UIC or UofC), and yes, we will be more overworked - but you hopefully learn more (Especially when I hear from former residents who went to fellowships elsewhere). You may not get as much specialty experience as other residencies, but we have increased what is available at LUMC and HVA. Regardless, don't stress, if you match here, you will come out of residency a capable neurologist. ... anyways, now for me to remember how to write a personal statement. Good luck!

 

[NeurologyHopeful2018]

As a Loyola Neurology resident (Only returning to SDN today to help with my fellowship application) - and one who did not partake in residency interviews for various reasons - I will stress that while Loyola has many flaws, we as a residency program are not malignant. We have this in our history, but there has been a culture shift under Dr. McCoyd. You will get a good residency experience from Loyola (one that I have compared when I talk to colleagues at UIC or UofC), and yes, we will be more overworked - but you hopefully learn more (Especially when I hear from former residents who went to fellowships elsewhere). You may not get as much specialty experience as other residencies, but we have increased what is available at LUMC and HVA. Regardless, don't stress, if you match here, you will come out of residency a capable neurologist. ... anyways, now for me to remember how to write a personal statement. Good luck!

Thank you so much for your insight!!

Can you tell me what the weaknesses.flaws of the program are?

Also - why do you think Loyola has mostly AMGs with these many flaws? Other top programs in less desirable locations like Iowa, UAB, MCW ..etc have tons of IMGs. Feel free to PM me!

 

[TardyDoc]

Thank you so much for your insight!!

Can you tell me what the weaknesses.flaws of the program are?

Also - why do you think Loyola has mostly AMGs with these many flaws? Other top programs in less desirable locations like Iowa, UAB, MCW ..etc have tons of IMGs. Feel free to PM me!

First of all, I'm sure I can speak for all of us when I say you should just try to relax. As Julius Cesar said as he led his army into battle, Alea iacta est.. the die has been cast. There is nothing you can do about it now.

For future neurology applicants reading this thread - I personally think its a really bad system to only judge a program based on the proportion of AMGs to IMGs. Thinking that programs who take international or osteopathic graduates are inherently bad in some way is not only incorrect but downright offensive and disrespectful to the hard working students around the world who hope for a career in medicine in the US. Programs that have a great reputation on paper with excellent pedigrees may simply not be a good fit, and going based just on name recognition and reputation may result in a miserable 4 years of residency.

Cast a wide net, be open minded, and don't read too much into any one attribute of a program. And as for you neurologyhopeful2018, I hope you get what you want. Just know that your comments may be hurtful to some readers.

 

[NeurologyHopeful2018]

I have nothing against DOs...but I feel programs should prioritize US grads (MD and DOs) over IMGs. Collegiality is huge in residency - do you really want to work with someone who knows nothing about US culture and customs and mannerism?

I made huge sacrifices and went into 300K debt to graduate from med school in the US. How do you feel about a 23 year old IMG who entered med school striaght out of high school with years of free time to leisurely study for the boards taking your spot? Is it really fair for programs to take a IMG with 250/250 boards over a AMG with 230/230 boards?

 

[TUGM]

I have nothing against DOs...but I feel programs should prioritize US grads (MD and DOs) over IMGs. Collegiality is huge in residency - do you really want to work with someone who knows nothing about US culture and customs and mannerism?

I made huge sacrifices and went into 300K debt to graduate from med school in the US. How do you feel about a 23 year old IMG who entered med school striaght out of high school with years of free time to leisurely study for the boards taking your spot? Is it really fair for programs to take a IMG with 250/250 boards over a AMG with 230/230 boards?

First of all, "fair" is a subjective term. To get into medical school in some foreign countries means competing with over 200,000 applicants for literally 2000 seats or less. Both AMGs, IMGs, and FMGs put in a lot of time and energy to get where they are, so they may also deem it "unfair" that they overcame many obstacles and sacrifices, and still did not taste success.

Also, as stated above, "the die has been cast." You ranked Loyola because of a good gut feeling, and that is truly the best way to go about the ranking process. There is no "best" program. Loyola will provide you with the essential resources that will allow you to train yourself to be a competent neurologist. Residency is what you make of it. Don't worry, you will most likely match, and you will most likely be fine.

Maybe residency will teach you that our foreign friends have the remarkable ability to assimilate into "US culture and customs and mannerism."

 

[Avoidthetiger]

Every program has flaws. I chose Loyola to be near my family, and I loved that it was one of the few programs that has a good mixture of MD, DO, and IMG/FMG. You can look at our residency profile website to see where residents are originally from and where they went to medical school. I value the diverse experience. For example, one of my chiefs completed residency abroad and was practicing as a neurologist prior to coming to the US. I'm very happy with my choice, and agree with the above comments.

 

[NeurologyHopeful2018]

Every program has flaws. I chose Loyola to be near my family, and I loved that it was one of the few programs that has a good mixture of MD, DO, and IMG/FMG. You can look at our residency profile website to see where residents are originally from and where they went to medical school. I value the diverse experience. For example, one of my chiefs completed residency abroad and was practicing as a neurologist prior to coming to the US. I'm very happy with my choice, and agree with the above comments.

Do you have time out of your busy schedule to explore Chicago? How often do you hang out with your fellow residents?

 

[TardyDoc]

I have nothing against DOs...but I feel programs should prioritize US grads (MD and DOs) over IMGs. Collegiality is huge in residency - do you really want to work with someone who knows nothing about US culture and customs and mannerism?

I made huge sacrifices and went into 300K debt to graduate from med school in the US. How do you feel about a 23 year old IMG who entered med school striaght outta college with years of free time to leisurely study for the boards taking your spot? Is it really fair for programs to take a IMG with 250/250 boards over a AMG with 230/230 boards?

I personally love working with people that have different customs and cultures, and think that I can have a collegial relationship with anyone, not just people who are born in a america. So again this would relate to personal fit. I would certainly not assume that the physicians from countries other than the US bring down the quality of the program - again this is an area where you would be offending other members of this globally used message board.

I thank TUGM for addressing "fairness" in this case. That is a relative term. Thankfully it is not for us to judge who can and cannot be successful in matching into residency, I feel that the systems in place do a good job of that. Most american medical students do match into residency and don't have their spots "taken," so continuing to put down IMGs in this forum is not necessary or productive.

 

[drcuddles]

I have nothing against DOs...but I feel programs should prioritize US grads (MD and DOs) over IMGs. Collegiality is huge in residency - do you really want to work with someone who knows nothing about US culture and customs and mannerism?

I made huge sacrifices and went into 300K debt to graduate from med school in the US. How do you feel about a 23 year old IMG who entered med school striaght out of high school with years of free time to leisurely study for the boards taking your spot? Is it really fair for programs to take a IMG with 250/250 boards over a AMG with 230/230 boards?

"someone who knows nothing about US culture and customs and mannerism?"... Sorry but this is a racist and an unprofessional comment. Have you ever met a foreigner in your life?
"years of free time to leisurely study for the boards taking your spot?"...If an IMG who doesn't even speak english as his/her first language and who had to wait years to be issued a visa, and then scores 2-3 SD higher than you "takes YOUR spot", well then the problem is within you!
"300K debt to graduate med school" Had to work uber and in a restaurant for 2 years in order to afford taking my steps.
FYI I went to a foreign medical school that was the only medical school available in an entire country. Had to literally compete with hundreds of thousands of high school students from across several neighboring countries.
I hope I don't end up in a program with you!

 

[CarlosDanger]

You made a good decision based on your interview gut feeling, I don't think you have much to worry about. Sure, first hand warnings from current residents or students is a red flag, but anything else gets really murky. How are you just now hearing this info so long after the interview? Truly malignant programs are pretty easy to spot. There are a lot of second or third hand stories floating around out there about lots of programs that seem baseless or out of touch. I think it's pretty rare to have a program that retains a lot of its own students, I see that as a very positive sign. You already got positive reviews from current students, what more do you need?

I definitely take issue with your statements about IMGs, for so many reasons. As you actually get to know them as people and not as statistics you'll realize many are extremely qualified. Some that I've met are already more qualified than I'll be in 5 years. Remember, there are more spots in neurology than there are applicants.

 

[Nonphysiologic]

Yeah man that sounded super culturally insensitive. But anyways I had a similar situation when I ranked for residency. After submission I immediately regretted it and sure enough I ended up at my #1 ranked place which I was super bummed about. It was my home program that’s why I ranked it 1 but I was interviewing at all these “cooler” places. I ended up going to a very intense place getting my butt destroyed and I was always looking to transfer my PGY2 year. All the foreign guys would get like 99 percentile on the RITE and I would get much below average and they were just way smarter in Neuro than me. Eventually however it turned into my favor. Being around that hardened me made me more confident and I ended up being a top Neuro resident because of the influence of the IMGs who were crushing it. So in retrospect I’m glad I went to an intense place because by nature I’m a chill guy and at that time I was a below average medical student and going to my program helped whip me in shape. I ended up liking having co residents from all over the world it was super interesting. A lot of my friends at other programs with all AMGs were having fun and going to like happy hours and stuff like that but the foreign guys in my program were usually top students in their countries, had a fantastic work ethic, and idk I just really appreciate the diversity in culture and thought. I still carry their influence with me to this day.


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[neurochica]

When I interviewed there for residedecy, it was a dump- i didn’t even ranked it. Although it has some very good fellowships specially in stroke.
I hope I never get the chance to call you a colleague.