Differentiating Between the Top 10

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seracus

seracus

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What are the major differences between the top 10 schools per usnews rankings? I thought it might be useful to create a list of distinguishing characteristics to help people figure out which ones fit what they're looking for. I'll start, but please add.


Columbia University, New York, NY
- urban
- 1.5 year preclinical
- P/F unranked pre-clinicals
- Can take 2 free classes per semester anywhere in Columbia
- required thesis
- high percentage of students later specialize in surgery (30%)
- offers merit aid scholarships

Duke University, Durham, NC
- not urban (pop. 229k)
- 1 year preclinical
- 3rd year 'off' to do research or dual-degree
- required thesis
- horrible secondary
- offers merit aid scholarships

Harvard University, Boston, MA
- urban
- 2 year preclinical
- problem based learning
- required scholarly project
- it's Harvard!
- low graduate indebtedness

Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD
- urban (less desirable)
- 2 year preclinical
- pass/fail (preclinical)
- required scholarly project during preclinical
- it's Hopkins!

Stanford University, Stanford, CA
- not urban (pop. 11k, but near Palo Alto)
- 2 year preclinical
- pass/fail (preclinical)
- required thesis
- Scholarly Concentrations program
- low graduate indebtedness

University of California, San Francisco
- urban
- state school (84% in-state)
- 2 year preclinical
- optional thesis

University of Chicago (Pritzker), Chicago, IL
- urban (less desirable part of Chicago)
- 2 years preclinical
- pass/fail (preclinical)
- required thesis
- high graduate indebtedness
- offers merit aid scholarships

University of Michigan, Ann Harbor
- not urban (pop. 114k)
- state school (51% in-state)
- 2 year preclinical
- pass/fail (preclinical)
- optional thesis
- high average indebtedness

University of Pennsylvania (Perelman), Philadelphia, PA
- urban
- 1.5 year preclinical
- first semester pass/fail, next year honors/pass/fail
- required thesis
- high graduate indebtedness
- recent 225 million dollar donation (20% increase in financial aid)

University of Washington, Seattle, WA
- urban
- state school (57% in-state)
- 2 year preclinical
- problem based learning
- required thesis
- high graduate indebtedness (140k avg., highest on this list)

Washington University in St. Louis, St. Louis, MO
- urban (less desirable)
- 2 year preclinical
- problem based learning
- first year pass/fail
- optional thesis

Yale University, New Haven, CT
- not urban (pop. 130k, less desirable)
- 2 year preclinical
- pass/fail (preclinical)
- required thesis

Disclaimer: if mentioned, average graduate indebtedness below 100k falls into the 'low' category while above 120k falls into the 'high' category. These valuations are relative to the average, which seems to be ~110k. One should take into account that even the highest value is relatively low compared to medical schools nationally. (Source: MSAR)

I know this list is far from informative in its current form, but hopefully you all can add some highlights to it. With any luck, this should become a great resource for everyone in their attempts to choose schools to apply to in the coming weeks.
 
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Duke, Stanford, UM, and to a lesser degree Yale, are not urban.
 
drizzt3117 said:
Duke, Stanford, UM, and to a lesser degree Yale, are not urban.
Click to expand...

Fixed, though I think Duke is close enough to urban to leave it unchanged.
 
I actually think this is a pretty good thread idea, OP. As long as it stays concise, it could be useful for some people to use as a reference when picking which top schools to apply to.
 
MSAR anyone? Accurate information to make the biggest decision of your life?
 
Penn has 1.5 years preclinical. Also, the grading scheme is P/F for the first semester and H/P/F for that following year. With the Perelman gift (225 million), financial aid is increased by 20% so I'm confident that the average indebtedness will decrease.
 
protonate said:
Penn has 1.5 years preclinical. Also, the grading scheme is P/F for the first semester and H/P/F for that following year. With the Perelman gift (225 million), financial aid is increased by 20% so I'm confident that the average indebtedness will decrease.
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Updated.
 
Hopkins has a required scholarly project during the preclinical years.
 
seracus said:
It's on a list of schools whose graduates have the most debt...

I used MSAR and labelled any schools above 115k average debt as high, considering the average seemed to be around 105k. Some of the numbers USNews uses disagree with MSAR numbers.
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it's a list of every school genius, and its indebtedness is less than 4k above "generous" HMS. likewise, you label pritzker with high indebtedness yet graduates have lower debt than yale. in a similar vein, hopkins is less debt than HMS yet it fails to garner a "generous" label..

did you do any research here?
 
I live on the edge of Durham County and work some shifts with Durham County EMS...having lived around here since 2000, I think it would be a stretch to call Duke urban. Anyone from any major city would laugh at that. Maybe if you were from a very rural area it would seem urban. It is pretty much right next to downtown, but Durham isn't a major city by any stretch. I wouldn't call it small-town, but I would take the urban label off - it isn't like Boston or Baltimore or anything like that. Some parts of Durham, especially east of downtown, have some serious gang-related drug problems that are pretty dangerous - we wear Kevlar when we respond to certain calls in those areas. Fortunately, the area immediately around Duke isn't that bad, but if you walk too far in the wrong direction, it can get a little dicey. That said, the Triangle area (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill) in general is a great place to live. I love it here.
 
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OK, changed it.
 
I'm gunning to become director of the NIH, which one of these schools do you recommend for that?
 
seracus said:
It's on a list of schools whose graduates have the most debt...

I used MSAR and labelled any schools above 115k average debt as high, considering the average seemed to be around 105k. Some of the numbers USNews uses disagree with MSAR numbers.
Click to expand...

Might I recommend posting the average indebtedness rather than listing as "high/low"? Also, I imagine most of these schools have merit aid. I know columbia does. Something you could add to Columbia's is "Highest percentage of students going into surgery (~30% depending on how you count it).
 
RogueUnicorn said:
it's a list of every school genius, and its indebtedness is less than 4k above "generous" HMS. likewise, you label pritzker with high indebtedness yet graduates have lower debt than yale. in a similar vein, hopkins is less debt than HMS yet it fails to garner a "generous" label..

did you do any research here?
Click to expand...

Woah, calm down. I based my information on the latest MSAR data. I would happily just list that data online but I was worried I'd be violating some law. If you'd like, I will outline the ranges at the beginning and delete the comment about HMS (though MSAR lists their average indebtedness second lowest of the top 12).

Here, I'll change the range to over 120k if that makes you happy, and that would knock out Columbia. The only reason I included the information for only a few schools is that I was aiming for brevity.
 
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I will compare all of these schools once you get accepted to a few of them OP.

All of them are awesome schools. Apply to all of them if you have a superb GPA/MCAT combo.
 
mmmcdowe said:
Might I recommend posting the average indebtedness rather than listing as "high/low"? Also, I imagine most of these schools have merit aid. I know columbia does. Something you could add to Columbia's is "Highest percentage of students going into surgery (~30% depending on how you count it).
Click to expand...

We could use the US News data for indebtedness. Just as an aside, though, this data at times conflicts with the data included with MSAR. I would side with MSAR for reliability, but I recognize that's a somewhat subjective choice. (I would include the MSAR data, but I am unsure as to whether this is permissible.)
 
Feel free to just modify the content of the original post in your reply and update it as you see fit. I can update the original to help streamline the process as we go along if people would find that helpful. I really wasn't trying to make any political moves with writing the short bios; I was only trying to start the conversation.
 
MSAR anyone? This thread is like an open communication of a review article of review articles of a historical development of an update to a review article of original publications on the development of ruthenium-based catalysts of olefin metathesis. Why not just read a definitive review article of ruthenium-based olefin metathesis catalysts ---> Read the MSAR and use some discretion based on your own criteria?
 
Columbia University, New York, NY
- urban
- 1.5 year preclinical
- P/F unranked pre-clinicals
- Can take 2 free classes per semester anywhere in Columbia
- required thesis
- high percentage of students later specialize in surgery (30%)
 
What's the point of this thread supposed to be? If this was an updated version of that thread where current students answer questions about the particular school they're attending, that would be useful, but anyone smart enough to get into a top 10 med school can figure out these things about a school they're interested in pretty easily.
 
Mazdave said:
What's the point of this thread supposed to be? If this was an updated version of that thread where current students answer questions about the particular school they're attending, that would be useful, but anyone smart enough to get into a top 10 med school can figure out these things about a school they're interested in pretty easily.
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On the real dude
 
Honestly, it's just for convenience. If you'd rather not have a brief concise list to start off school hunting with, you don't have to read the thread. As someone who would consider applying to 12 schools based on rank alone unsatisfying, I personally would find such a resource useful and thought others might as well.

MSAR is great, but it doesn't do a fantastic job of differentiating between schools at or near the same tier where most of the information it includes will be similar across all schools in this category. Further, the series misses some institutional qualities which may not be relevant to a more general synopsis of the school but become relevant in a comparison between that school and its most direct peers. Think of this project as an endeavor to distill down the massive quantities of information out there into what remains applicable in a comparison between those institutions at the very top.
 
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seracus said:
Honestly, it's just for convenience. If you'd rather not have a brief concise list to start off school hunting with, you don't have to read the thread. As someone who has stats that should make me competitive to any program I apply to, I personally would find such a resource useful and thought others might as well. MSAR is great, but it doesn't do a fantastic job of differentiating between schools at or near the same tier where most of the information it includes will be similar across all schools in this category.
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1) what is so convenient of a list that is lacking in hard numbers, data, and legitimate facts? And the MSAR doesn't do it's job of differentiating between ALL schools?

2) nice job not being arrogant my dude. Mazel Tov on being competitive to any program you have your heart set on, you deserve it. But take a break from praising yourself and work on the other things in your file that you can definitely improve, as all students can surely do.
 
H Y F R said:
1) what is so convenient of a list that is lacking in hard numbers, data, and legitimate facts? And the MSAR doesn't do it's job of differentiating between ALL schools?

2) nice job not being arrogant my dude. Mazel Tov on being competitive to any program you have your heart set on, you deserve it. But take a break from praising yourself and work on the other things in your file that you can definitely improve, as all students can surely do.
Click to expand...

Whatever. I included that only to counter the snide remark of the poster before you, and then deleted it after considering how it might sound to someone outside of the intended context. I'm not really sure why you're attacking me, as I honestly only intended to try to initiate the creation of a resource as of yet unavailable, but if this thread really is such a blight on SDN I can continue this activity on my own. If everyone else would rather independently carry out the grunt work when attempting to choose a list of competitive schools to apply to, be my guest.
 
seracus said:
Honestly, it's just for convenience. If you'd rather not have a brief concise list to start off school hunting with, you don't have to read the thread. As someone who would consider applying to 12 schools based on rank alone unsatisfying, I personally would find such a resource useful and thought others might as well.
Click to expand...

seracus said:
...If everyone else would rather independently carry out the grunt work when attempting to choose a list of competitive schools to apply to, be my guest.
Click to expand...

Excepting UCSF & UW, if your app is strong enough to consider applying to any of these schools, then you're probably going to skip straight to applying to all of them. These schools aren't exactly such a breeze to get into that people generally start picking between them at the application stage...maybe post-interview between the schools which have actually deigned to interview you (at which time you'll have much better information on which to base your decision instead of a few random factoids).
 
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Which school has the best gym (preferably with tanning booths) and all around most swoll/cut/attractive student body? That's where I belong. 😎
 
UW might be just 57% in state, but it's about 98% in region (Washington, Wyoming, Alaska, Idaho, Montana). Most of the OOS students have both excellent stats and a demonstrated interest in rural medicine.
 
I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have the money to dump into applying to all the top schools. I appreciate this thread, although I already know most of the contained info. If you don't like someone consolidating data, then go off and do something meaningful rather than ranting about how someone's efforts to help are stupid. Some people may find it useful. Personally, I'm still trying to choose 5 of the top 10 schools to apply to (among others of course).
 
3rdarmageddon said:
I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have the money to dump into applying to all the top schools. I appreciate this thread, although I already know most of the contained info. If you don't like someone consolidating data, then go off and do something meaningful rather than ranting about how someone's efforts to help are stupid. Some people may find it useful. Personally, I'm still trying to choose 5 of the top 10 schools to apply to (among others of course).
Click to expand...

+1👍
 
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