Difficult patient... POTENTIAL patient actually

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uhsstudent

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This is an email my office just received from a potential patient who has back pain and abdominal pain. No other specifics. He emailed the office weeks ago without scheduling an appt, and I said if he doesn't want to come in for multiple visits, then he should come in after he gets all his diagnostic tests such as MRI. He got a T/L spine MRI for free at the hospital and then he emails me this below.

He refuses to come in for a consult now because he has no insurance and does not want to pay cash. He just wants me to do an epidural at the hospital (b/c the hospital granted him financial assistance by not charging him). What would you do? Do the thoracic ESI? Send him to another guy? Refuse to treat him for too many red flags?




HEY DOC......

Your receptionist is so ****ing (excuse my language) in this case for i rarely get so frustrated by people but this lady must be so MONEY HUNGRY to get people to sign up for an appointment for you its very SAD. I know that you see people, I know that you might be busy but I am also know that you can take the time and make a call when you do have a couple minutes free to discuss what we can hopefully do for each other without so much crap attached to getting to that point. She literally would not just take a simple message down to call me!!!! What is wrong with the ART of simple communication between a Doctor and a possible Patient ? I have gone and done what you told me to do....that is get the 2 MRI's done as of yesterday...results are on the Computer from the Hospital....According to Dr. **** they show 2 Disc's that are indeed Bulging so i would like you to hopefully acknowledge that fact....look at the results.....charge me a somewhat MINIMAL FEE for i do not need to discuss whats wrong considering we both know whats wrong and WRITE THE ORDER for the PROCEDURE at the Hospital.

I do not believe that's to difficult to do Doc and I would then like you to hopefully preform the procedure at the Hospital as well if you would like to do so. You are on staff there are you not? The Hospital's Financial Department has already AUTHORIZED Payment on the Procedure itself but did not include i do not believe a consultation fee.

Thank you.
 
run.

you dont need this sh it.

This is an email my office just received from a potential patient who has back pain and abdominal pain. No other specifics. He emailed the office weeks ago without scheduling an appt, and I said if he doesn't want to come in for multiple visits, then he should come in after he gets all his diagnostic tests such as MRI. He got a T/L spine MRI for free at the hospital and then he emails me this below.

He refuses to come in for a consult now because he has no insurance and does not want to pay cash. He just wants me to do an epidural at the hospital (b/c the hospital granted him financial assistance by not charging him). What would you do? Do the thoracic ESI? Send him to another guy? Refuse to treat him for too many red flags?




HEY DOC......

Your receptionist is so ****ing (excuse my language) in this case for i rarely get so frustrated by people but this lady must be so MONEY HUNGRY to get people to sign up for an appointment for you its very SAD. I know that you see people, I know that you might be busy but I am also know that you can take the time and make a call when you do have a couple minutes free to discuss what we can hopefully do for each other without so much crap attached to getting to that point. She literally would not just take a simple message down to call me!!!! What is wrong with the ART of simple communication between a Doctor and a possible Patient ? I have gone and done what you told me to do....that is get the 2 MRI's done as of yesterday...results are on the Computer from the Hospital....According to Dr. **** they show 2 Disc's that are indeed Bulging so i would like you to hopefully acknowledge that fact....look at the results.....charge me a somewhat MINIMAL FEE for i do not need to discuss whats wrong considering we both know whats wrong and WRITE THE ORDER for the PROCEDURE at the Hospital.

I do not believe that's to difficult to do Doc and I would then like you to hopefully preform the procedure at the Hospital as well if you would like to do so. You are on staff there are you not? The Hospital's Financial Department has already AUTHORIZED Payment on the Procedure itself but did not include i do not believe a consultation fee.

Thank you.
 
Fu&K that dude, this is the exact entitled POS that makes me want slam my head into the concrete.
 
R-U-N! Next thing you know your epidural caused them to have intractable pain and the only thing that helps it is a cocktail of xanax, roxicodone (allergic to tylenol), and soma.
 
You would have to be insane to treat this guy. I agree with Steve, profanity alone is a good enough reason not to schedule and easy for anyone who hasn't actually seen the letter to understand. The entitled and disrespectful tone bothers me more.

This guy is a lawsuit waiting to happen.


This is an email my office just received from a potential patient who has back pain and abdominal pain. No other specifics. He emailed the office weeks ago without scheduling an appt, and I said if he doesn't want to come in for multiple visits, then he should come in after he gets all his diagnostic tests such as MRI. He got a T/L spine MRI for free at the hospital and then he emails me this below.

He refuses to come in for a consult now because he has no insurance and does not want to pay cash. He just wants me to do an epidural at the hospital (b/c the hospital granted him financial assistance by not charging him). What would you do? Do the thoracic ESI? Send him to another guy? Refuse to treat him for too many red flags?




HEY DOC......

Your receptionist is so ****ing (excuse my language) in this case for i rarely get so frustrated by people but this lady must be so MONEY HUNGRY to get people to sign up for an appointment for you its very SAD. I know that you see people, I know that you might be busy but I am also know that you can take the time and make a call when you do have a couple minutes free to discuss what we can hopefully do for each other without so much crap attached to getting to that point. She literally would not just take a simple message down to call me!!!! What is wrong with the ART of simple communication between a Doctor and a possible Patient ? I have gone and done what you told me to do....that is get the 2 MRI's done as of yesterday...results are on the Computer from the Hospital....According to Dr. **** they show 2 Disc's that are indeed Bulging so i would like you to hopefully acknowledge that fact....look at the results.....charge me a somewhat MINIMAL FEE for i do not need to discuss whats wrong considering we both know whats wrong and WRITE THE ORDER for the PROCEDURE at the Hospital.

I do not believe that's to difficult to do Doc and I would then like you to hopefully preform the procedure at the Hospital as well if you would like to do so. You are on staff there are you not? The Hospital's Financial Department has already AUTHORIZED Payment on the Procedure itself but did not include i do not believe a consultation fee.

Thank you.
 
The patient is writing to you as if he's your friend. He's not but he'll never understand this. Game over.
 
There are twenty reasons not to do that procedure.

I have a very low threshold not to do procedures.

Disregards/ignores my recommendations-- no procedures/no opioids
Entitled patient--(particularly medicaid)---no procedures/no opioids
FMS or major psych disorders beyond anxiety/depression----no procedures/no opioids
Substance abuse/ER psych visits or major psych issues--never seen to start with
Verbally abusive to me or my staff-- booted from practice
 
In my first year or so of practice I would see anyone for any problem. You can try this but will eventually regret it. Now I screen all new pts, esp pts who have a remote PCP/travel to see me.

For those folks to now schedule they need a referring doc, records, med list, informed of office opioid policy, etc. and THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL YOU SHOULD CONSIDER DOING AN INJECTION ON THIS GUY or any new pt without a consult first. The only exception I could think of would be a trusted partner who might order a procedure that you would perform. Since no one in my area does what I do, no OV equals no procedure, PERIOD.

The pts you bend the rules for will bite you later for sure.

This guy is so weird I would hesitate to see him at all.
 
I don't care if its the Pope's mother; no F-ing way I'd see this guy.

Not even a patient yet and already, nasty letters cursing at staff?

Seeing a specialist is a privilege, not a right to be a d-bag.
 
This guy is so weird I would hesitate to see him at all.


Yes a total weirdo. Why the f u ck would you call this nut job who is not even a patient. And why the hell would you do anything extra for a patient that feels entitled and demanding. I re read this and I am astonished at this loon. I am actually just pissed now. I hope he gets his ass beat for being a dick..l

This guy wants you to do him a favor and do something against how you normally function because... Well because he is asking you too? Why would you? If he was at least nice and respectful and it was a hardship maybe, but because he feels he is entitled to it...f u ck this douche.

I was gonna say I hope something bad happens to this guy, but if it did, then my tax dollars would pay for that **** too...

To the OP, are you NUTS? That you actually are wondering IF YOU SHOULD SEE THIS PATIENT? If it was even a thought for you, you need to wake up and work on your judgment.

All that sounded harsh but I'm to tired to go back and sugar coat it...
 
But then will he sue you for not treating?.....
 
Yes a total weirdo. Why the f u ck would you call this nut job who is not even a patient. And why the hell would you do anything extra for a patient that feels entitled and demanding. I re read this and I am astonished at this loon. I am actually just pissed now. I hope he gets his ass beat for being a dick..l

This guy wants you to do him a favor and do something against how you normally function because... Well because he is asking you too? Why would you? If he was at least nice and respectful and it was a hardship maybe, but because he feels he is entitled to it...f u ck this douche.

I was gonna say I hope something bad happens to this guy, but if it did, then my tax dollars would pay for that **** too...

To the OP, are you NUTS? That you actually are wondering IF YOU SHOULD SEE THIS PATIENT? If it was even a thought for you, you need to wake up and work on your judgment.

All that sounded harsh but I'm to tired to go back and sugar coat it...

You sir are my next partner. But ya gotta move to Or-REE-Gun
 
But then will he sue you for not treating?.....

in terms of financials, if he is hospital based, the hospital may be giving him charity care because he is threatening them for not treating him. but clearly this guy should not be seen because of his tone and his attitudes toward your staff and ultimately towards you.

he is attempting to circumvent the doctor patient relationship; he is trying to almost bribe you towards giving him care outside standard practice.

nothing good will come towards seeing this patient. tell your administration that you recieved this communication and you cannot see this patient because of his negative attitude towards your staff. have your staff document the interactions with him - im sure they will tell you so much more than is stated in his letter.
 
1. You have the option of selecting the patients who will receive charity care unless you are a hospital employee, in which case you treat who you are told to treat. This is not a patient I would select for charity care.
2. The indications for performance of an epidural steroid injection may exclude this patient given that he has only "bulging discs", a common normal anatomical finding. If there is significant DDD with HIZ then it may be possible to justify an epidural but if you consider it, it should only be done with the documented pre-injection discussion that you would provide a single epidural injection, no other medications, and if the epidural injection relief lasted less than 6 months then you would refer to a neurosurgeon/OSS (unlikely to take this guy, however I am aware of several employed by hospitals now, therefore they do as they are told by the administration).
 
1. You have the option of selecting the patients who will receive charity care unless you are a hospital employee, in which case you treat who you are told to treat. This is not a patient I would select for charity care.
2. The indications for performance of an epidural steroid injection may exclude this patient given that he has only "bulging discs", a common normal anatomical finding. If there is significant DDD with HIZ then it may be possible to justify an epidural but if you consider it, it should only be done with the documented pre-injection discussion that you would provide a single epidural injection, no other medications, and if the epidural injection relief lasted less than 6 months then you would refer to a neurosurgeon/OSS (unlikely to take this guy, however I am aware of several employed by hospitals now, therefore they do as they are told by the administration).

i work in a hospital and the situation is not "you treat who you are told to treat".

yes i take all insurances, but there is still independent medical decision making going on inside a hospital, regardless of what you private practice people believe. patients i dont want to see dont get scheduled, and while i have been at this hospital for 3 years, i know the previous guys were never forced to see anyone they did not want to.
 
i see nothing wrong with this patient's request. sounds like a straight shooter to me.

lavender is not appropriate for the level of sarcasm that is required
 
I disagree.....I am familiar with several cases in which doctors have been forced to treat people that they thought inappropriate by their hospital masters. When you work for a hospital, you have sold your soul to the devil. We may all be there eventually but for now it means do as you are told or you are fired. I am happy you do not perceive your current situation to be so precarious.....but it really is.
 
Agree you should run the other way. This is trouble. TROUBLE.

But did you order MRI's on him? Did you establish some type of relationship with him? If so, you may need to evaluate him, but certainly not just do a procedure that he thinks he needs. That's absurd.

Nothing good will come of this. Get out as soon as possible and with as little conflict as possible. He sounds like a potentially dangerous patient.
 
I would not inject based on just "bulging discs". The pateint needs to be evaluted first to assess if he is even a candidate for an injection. Given his tone with you, I would not accept him as a patient as typically chronic abdominal pain (if this is his main complaint) doesnt respond well to ESI and he doesnt appear to have respect for the doctor patient relationship.

Mod, may want to consider moving this to the private forum.
 
You sir are my next partner. But ya gotta move to Or-REE-Gun

I love Oregon! If its not rural, sign me up. I like that show Grim, that's filled in Portland...
 
firstly, why did you suggest MRIs for him without seeing him?

Secondly, do not see this guy. Say that you have to do a physical exam. Also tell him there are set fees. It's illegal for you to charge less, you are bound to code things as they are appropriate (it's illegal to downgrade a level 4 initial to a level 2 just because you think the patient cant pay for it).

Do not stick a needle in this guy.
 
I love Oregon! If its not rural, sign me up. I like that show Grim, that's filled in Portland...

Tell the wife your movin. You, me an 2 NS. You think your gettin no rural work, you gotta think again. Clean air, nice partners and patients🙂

BTW: hope you are a vegan!
 
Difficult patient today who came in late for her scheduled injection time. She then began to harangue my staff complaining about the decor of the office, the temperature, and even the water - yes, she complained about the taste of the bottled water that my staff had offered to her. The final straw came when she became abusive with my staff after she noticed that another patient was being brought in before her. I invited her into my office and told her that she would need to find a new doctor. No injection today from me. No injection in the future from me. Done... please leave.
 
Yeah, I'm not allowed to refuse referrals. Even gems such as this. That's why I gotta get outta this place and back west with the big sky and the clean air. It's either that or I go all Ed Norton in Fight Club around this place...

The first rule of the pain clinic is you do not talk about the pain clinic
 
so am a hospital based interventional spine , few months in, and yes, you are told what to do, I was told that patients who come in on chronic opioids are getting mad that I am refusing to write opioid scripts on the first visit, there is a concern that I am pissing off the referring providers, trust me folks, its a rude awakening to be told how to practice medicine by nonphysician adminstrator bean counter types, at least I know what the alternative to private practice is now,
 
so am a hospital based interventional spine , few months in, and yes, you are told what to do, I was told that patients who come in on chronic opioids are getting mad that I am refusing to write opioid scripts on the first visit, there is a concern that I am pissing off the referring providers, trust me folks, its a rude awakening to be told how to practice medicine by nonphysician adminstrator bean counter types, at least I know what the alternative to private practice is now,

then you guys did not do an adequate job of vetting the situation before taking your position.

maybe you live in a place that is very competitive, and you fear for your job, but saying that "the admin made me do it" means you are abandoning your code of ethics if you treat patients against your medical judgement.
 
then you guys did not do an adequate job of vetting the situation before taking your position.

maybe you live in a place that is very competitive, and you fear for your job, but saying that "the admin made me do it" means you are abandoning your code of ethics if you treat patients against your medical judgement.

Ditto-

Time to look for another job.

In the meantime, remember that you are the one that would be sued if someone ODs etc, not the bean counter. So I"d practice medicine the way it should be practiced.
 
There are unfortunately an increasing number of hospital administrations that indeed will tell physicians exactly how to practice medicine, and legally they can do so using the employer/employee relationship to achieve their goals. Medical issues are not their concern: patient satisfaction is what hospitals live and die for, and a physician that does not "satisfy" patients under such an employment situation finds themselves fired with the inability to practice in that city for 1-2 years due to non-compete contract clauses. Working for a hospital is selling your soul, whether you like it or not. The only recourse is to become independent. I am unaware of many benevolent despot administrators. Most are scheming money hungry zealots that care far more about building the next addition to their hospital than appropriate medical treatment of patients. Now they are empowered to direct physician activities in a way that frequently conflicts with medical ethics. Obamacare accelerated this immensely by adopting a trade restrictive anticompetitive model that empowers hospitals and guts the capability of independents to compete. It will only get worse.
 
There are unfortunately an increasing number of hospital administrations that indeed will tell physicians exactly how to practice medicine, and legally they can do so using the employer/employee relationship to achieve their goals. Medical issues are not their concern: patient satisfaction is what hospitals live and die for, and a physician that does not "satisfy" patients under such an employment situation finds themselves fired with the inability to practice in that city for 1-2 years due to non-compete contract clauses. Working for a hospital is selling your soul, whether you like it or not. The only recourse is to become independent. I am unaware of many benevolent despot administrators. Most are scheming money hungry zealots that care far more about building the next addition to their hospital than appropriate medical treatment of patients. Now they are empowered to direct physician activities in a way that frequently conflicts with medical ethics. Obamacare accelerated this immensely by adopting a trade restrictive anticompetitive model that empowers hospitals and guts the capability of independents to compete. It will only get worse.


trust me when I tell you, yes I have learned my lesson, my next job will not be a hospital based job, independent for sure
 
One piece of ammo you have against hospital BS is the use terms like "patient safety" and "staff safety", etc. instead of arguing for your own productivity/interests. I had a problem with one of my OR nurses who was incompetent, bad attitude. She went straight to the CNO who charged right into my OR. I stayed cool and said, "we have a pt safety issue here". Bam, RN gone from my OR and discussion over.

The other thing you can do at a hospital with regard to opioids is to start a opioid policy/safety program. Have a nurse leader and SW work on it with you signing off. I have found that in a hosp and projects that are doc led are viewed with a suspicious eye so use RNs and SWs that you trust have have them be the 'leaders' of the project. Use the 'power' of the hospital to your advantage, i.e., create a policy that all linked docs, esp PCPs now have to follow. Then when you stop Rx'ing you are following the rules.

These kind of things can be a chance for the hosp to market/PR "fighting the rx crisis" for the community. win win.

Hosp's that are pushing you to prescribe could also be reported to DEA/state police? I would bring an issue like that to DEA. state police, med board, feds, and if they fire you you could prob sue using a whistle blower statute, or at least threaten that.
 
These kind of things can be a chance for the hosp to market/PR "fighting the rx crisis" for the community. win win.

Hosp's that are pushing you to prescribe could also be reported to DEA/state police? I would bring an issue like that to DEA. state police, med board, feds, and if they fire you you could prob sue using a whistle blower statute, or at least threaten that.

1+

This is HUGE right now. If you get your state and county stats on prescription abuse/OD you will have a lot of ammo. Start pushing for PROP/WA state guidelines. This will send the druggies elsewhere. But alas, not all PIA's are druggies.
 
Florida, the state where non-competes don't matter....God bless america
 
I recently saw a Charity case - self-pay, unemployed - but very nice guy, charmed my front office staff.

1) He has an iPhone 5 -
2) He has a blue tooth headset in his ear during the whole visit
3) has a giant brand new starbucks flavored coffee (it did smell delicious - probably french vanilla)
4) an unopened pack of marlboros
5) turns out he wants to feel better (had a lumbar disc) for his upcoming trip to Disney - taking the whole family.

?!?!?! why is a charity case??? he obviously has some cash. I felt so ripped off by the fact that he played my office...
 
Amen. I see it all the time. "doc I can't pay my co-pay/bill" but all he new gadgets, smoke, and take nicer vcations than me...

I recently saw a Charity case - self-pay, unemployed - but very nice guy, charmed my front office staff.

1) He has an iPhone 5 -
2) He has a blue tooth headset in his ear during the whole visit
3) has a giant brand new starbucks flavored coffee (it did smell delicious - probably french vanilla)
4) an unopened pack of marlboros
5) turns out he wants to feel better (had a lumbar disc) for his upcoming trip to Disney - taking the whole family.

?!?!?! why is a charity case??? he obviously has some cash. I felt so ripped off by the fact that he played my office...
 
Greedy f***ing doctors: HEALTH CARE IS A RIGHT!
 
Hahaha. So true. Since my employer apparently LOVES medicaid patients (god only knows why) my practice is bereft with them... them and the whopping 0.7 to 0.9 cents on the dollar collections (yeah that's less than a penny collected per dollar billed).

Anyway, they can never seem to pay a co-pay, but always seem to have money for smart phones (which always go off while I'm trying to get a history or physical), cigarettes (at $10-$12/pack), and marijuana (which they're ALWAYS positive for). And then when I tell them I: 1) don't prescribe opioids on the first visit, 2) expect them to submit a urine sample, and 3) will expect them to participate in multidisciplinary care they go off about how expensive gas is and they can't be expected to drive to see the psychologist or PT, and how this is all a game to get their precious money cause I'm a greedy SOB.

And after they leave they call and file a verbal complaint, which I have to respond to administration with a written response within 48 hours. And they blast me on Press Ganey, which ties to 20% of my salary, so in the end they get my greedy @$$. FML.

If I can find something... anything better than this I'm leaping at the opportunity.

What in God's name for? You need to get the h--- out of that place. Must be a hospital employee. Any arrangement is better than hospital employee. Even employee of a physician owned mega-group is better. At least they don't want 0.7 cents on the dollar patients who put the practice at risk.

GTFO
 
Oh god I'm trying. Tough thing is most people hiring are the Kaisers and the other large groups. I'm not sure if it would be more of the same nonsense or not with those guys. Private practices don't seem to be looking right now. which sux...

Are you in California? That is a tough market to find another pain job if you're ethical.

Small to medium multi-specialty PP groups can be decent jobs, if everyone's clear on narcotic policy in advance.

With large insurance networks like Kaiser you often run into the same Press-gainey BS, with no attention to what's medically best for the patient.
So yeah, I'd worry about Kaiser. They don't pay too well in California either. I spoke with them about a job once and the pay was 1/3rd of what I'm currently making.
 
1) He has an iPhone 5 -
2) He has a blue tooth headset in his ear during the whole visit
3) has a giant brand new starbucks flavored coffee (it did smell delicious - probably french vanilla)
4) an unopened pack of marlboros
5) turns out he wants to feel better (had a lumbar disc) for his upcoming trip to Disney - taking the whole family.
.

What, you didn't get your "free stuff" care package for voting democratic. Oh, I see..
 
so.... of course I'm not treating this guy... but here's what happened:

I did not order any MRI. His PCP ordered an MRI of the t-spine and l-spine. I'll have to get the report, but nothing that relates to his pain. He has LEFT sided abdominal pain and some mildly bulging RIGHT sided thoracic discs. Then he has a LEFT L4-5 and L5-S1 disc with foraminal stenosis..blah blah blah.... He sends me the report.

By this time he had already sent the email in the original post. So I tell him that there is nothing for me to treat interventionally and that he should go back to his PCP. MOREOVER, I also tell him I am not treating him based on his attitude, emails, phone calls, etc....

Then he sends more emails accusing me of not treating him because "its all about the money" and since he doesn't have insurance, he thinks I don't want to treat him.... He will get no more responses from my clinic of course.

Funny part is there are pain guys everywhere and he can go to anyone else, yet he continues to email us.... i can only imagine how much worse it would be if I actually saw him for a consult or God forbid if I touched him with a needle...
 
This isn't directly related to pain mgmt, but a similar overall situation. I work in the admissions department of a free-standing (for-profit) psychiatric hospital. The other night, our census was below maximum capacity--which is actually rather rare, but nonetheless causes major anxiety (bordering on full-scale panic) among our non-medical administration team.

So I walked into the lobby at the start of my shift to bring back my first patient for an assessment, only to find our CFO running through the waiting area, obsessively trying to "screen" the patients' presenting problems--and ultimately to estimate the number of potential admissions already within the building. When she saw me, she exclaimed, within earshot of everyone in the lobby, "Thank goodness you're here! We need to fill the beds by midnight, but I know you can do it! Just make sure everyone has insurance (i.e., Medicaid)--because I don't want any charities!!"

The next morning, I received a message from my director congratulating me for my perfect performance the prior night on one of our (many) random marketing calls from corporate headquarters. Apparently, I successfully convinced the fake inquiry caller (i.e., secret shopper) from our quality control center that my hospital could help her "husband" who was ailing from severe "depression."

But, interestingly enough, I never received any feedback whatsoever on the 8 to 10 REAL PATIENTS that I actualy took care of that night. They must have all had the right insurance.
 
That sounds AWFULL!!!!!!!

i recommend someone give you a hug. Not me, because i dont touch people...

This isn't directly related to pain mgmt, but a similar overall situation. I work in the admissions department of a free-standing (for-profit) psychiatric hospital. The other night, our census was below maximum capacity--which is actually rather rare, but nonetheless causes major anxiety (bordering on full-scale panic) among our non-medical administration team.

So I walked into the lobby at the start of my shift to bring back my first patient for an assessment, only to find our CFO running through the waiting area, obsessively trying to "screen" the patients' presenting problems--and ultimately to estimate the number of potential admissions already within the building. When she saw me, she exclaimed, within earshot of everyone in the lobby, "Thank goodness you're here! We need to fill the beds by midnight, but I know you can do it! Just make sure everyone has insurance (i.e., Medicaid)--because I don't want any charities!!"

The next morning, I received a message from my director congratulating me for my perfect performance the prior night on one of our (many) random marketing calls from corporate headquarters. Apparently, I successfully convinced the fake inquiry caller (i.e., secret shopper) from our quality control center that my hospital could help her "husband" who was ailing from severe "depression."

But, interestingly enough, I never received any feedback whatsoever on the 8 to 10 REAL PATIENTS that I actualy took care of that night. They must have all had the right insurance.
 
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