Dilemma: Low Tier MD-PhD vs Top 25ish MD School

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efaefae

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I am in a huge dilemma. I got into a UTSW (ranked 26, and very good for research, they have a summer program that I can do b4 med school starts where I can get paid too) and also a low tier (ranked 90ish) MD-PhD program that pays me 25000 dollars a year with fully paid tuition. However, UTSW is also pretty cheap with only about a 19k tuition. I want to do research as a physician, but I feel that I can do research as an MD as easily as an MD-PhD (I would love some input on this from an MD-PhD or an MD researcher with experience). Please let me know your thoughts.

I am learning towards UTSW because I think that if I do two summers worth of good research at UTSW, along with some researcher mixed in the school years, I will get sufficient experience and knowledge in research to become an MD only researcher. Also, UTSW allows, and pays, students who want to take one year off and do research, which I am definitely considering. Thoughts?
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efaefae said:
I am in a huge dilemma. I got into a UTSW (ranked 26, and very good for research, they have a summer program that I can do b4 med school starts where I can get paid too) and also a low tier (ranked 90ish) MD-PhD program that pays me 25000 dollars a year with fully paid tuition. However, UTSW is also pretty cheap with only about a 19k tuition. I want to do research as a physician, but I feel that I can do research as an MD as easily as an MD-PhD (I would love some input on this from an MD-PhD or an MD researcher with experience). Please let me know your thoughts.

I am learning towards UTSW because I think that if I do two summers worth of good research at UTSW, along with some researcher mixed in the school years, I will get sufficient experience and knowledge in research to become an MD only researcher. Also, UTSW allows, and pays, students who want to take one year off and do research, which I am definitely considering. Thoughts?
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Doing research as an MD is definitely NOT the same as a PhD. For instance, MDs get way less funding than PhDs. Do you want to, say, see patients 2/5 days of the week and be in lab doing bench research/running your lab 3/5? Because that sort of involvement in research is much easier with a PhD.
 
Would it be possible to transfer from MD to the MD PhD after your first year at UTSW?
 
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The research training you get in 2 summers will not remotely be comparable to getting a Ph.D. Especially if you’re interested in getting your own competitive grants one day.

That said, you can get additional research training and mentoring during residency and fellowship if you are leaning toward clinical research.
 
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Some things to consider:

Yes, you can do research as an MD without getting the PhD. The degree isn’t the important thing, it’s the *training*. The important question is: will you have the oppportunities to get the training you need to do the research you want to do. As an MD this will involve one or more of several options:

1. Research year in medical school, so a 5 yr MD pathway with more time off to dedicate to research

2. A research-track residency (note: these are extremely competitive and you’ll be at a disadvantage without a PhD or equivalent research experience).

3. A postdoc after residency. This is the most common path for MD-only scientists hoping to do basic or translational research. Postdocs are far less competitive than research track residencies and can complement residency paths with built-in research years.

If you want to do clinical research, a research year in medical school is more than enough as the rest of your training will be sufficient to continue being involved in clinical research. If you want to do basic or translational science, a more substantial efffort will have to be put in. I wouldn’t try for a basic or translational career if you are not looking to spend the majority of your time as a physician being a lab scientist/running your lab.

Another thing to consider: in research, where you train and who you trained with is extremely important to the kinds of opportunities available to you farther down the line, only slightly less important than what you actually accomplished. Doing an MD at UTSW will probably open up more doors for you than doing the dual degree at a place with a significantly lower concentration of high impact research. Also, you can always try to transfer into the MSTP at UTSW following your first year of med school if you’re still itching for the PhD and like you said it won’t be that expensive, in relative terms, to attend UTSW.

Researchers live and die by two metrics: h-index and grantsmanship. As an MD, youre competing with PhDs and MD/PhDs who will have huge advantages on you in both departments as you start finishing up your clinical training so you will have to devote the same amount of time, essentially, you would’ve spent doing the PhD building up your credentials to compete for independence (that sweet, sweet K or R award). The average age to first R01 is 40 for all 3 paths (PhD, MD/PHD, and MD; source NIH biomedical research workforce report) for that reason.
 
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efaefae said:
I am in a huge dilemma. I got into a UTSW (ranked 26, and very good for research, they have a summer program that I can do b4 med school starts where I can get paid too) and also a low tier (ranked 90ish) MD-PhD program that pays me 25000 dollars a year with fully paid tuition. However, UTSW is also pretty cheap with only about a 19k tuition. I want to do research as a physician, but I feel that I can do research as an MD as easily as an MD-PhD (I would love some input on this from an MD-PhD or an MD researcher with experience). Please let me know your thoughts.

I am learning towards UTSW because I think that if I do two summers worth of good research at UTSW, along with some researcher mixed in the school years, I will get sufficient experience and knowledge in research to become an MD only researcher. Also, UTSW allows, and pays, students who want to take one year off and do research, which I am definitely considering. Thoughts?
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@Lucca has, as usual, given excellent advice. Defining what sort of research you want to pursue is key.

If I were in your shoes I would choose UTSW and strongly consider transferring into the MSTP after a year. While there is no guarantee that this will be possible, every MD/PhD program has some attrition, meaning slots usually come open at some point.
 
efaefae said:
I am in a huge dilemma. I got into a UTSW (ranked 26, and very good for research, they have a summer program that I can do b4 med school starts where I can get paid too) and also a low tier (ranked 90ish) MD-PhD program that pays me 25000 dollars a year with fully paid tuition. However, UTSW is also pretty cheap with only about a 19k tuition. I want to do research as a physician, but I feel that I can do research as an MD as easily as an MD-PhD (I would love some input on this from an MD-PhD or an MD researcher with experience). Please let me know your thoughts.

I am learning towards UTSW because I think that if I do two summers worth of good research at UTSW, along with some researcher mixed in the school years, I will get sufficient experience and knowledge in research to become an MD only researcher. Also, UTSW allows, and pays, students who want to take one year off and do research, which I am definitely considering. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Did you apply for the MD/PhD program at UTSW?
 
efaefae said:
I am in a huge dilemma. I got into a UTSW (ranked 26, and very good for research, they have a summer program that I can do b4 med school starts where I can get paid too) and also a low tier (ranked 90ish) MD-PhD program that pays me 25000 dollars a year with fully paid tuition. However, UTSW is also pretty cheap with only about a 19k tuition. I want to do research as a physician, but I feel that I can do research as an MD as easily as an MD-PhD (I would love some input on this from an MD-PhD or an MD researcher with experience). Please let me know your thoughts.

I am learning towards UTSW because I think that if I do two summers worth of good research at UTSW, along with some researcher mixed in the school years, I will get sufficient experience and knowledge in research to become an MD only researcher. Also, UTSW allows, and pays, students who want to take one year off and do research, which I am definitely considering. Thoughts?
Click to expand...


UTSW by far. Seems like your first priority is financial. As an MD/PhD you're delaying salary for 4-5 years. If you want to do basic science and get really involved, take a year off and do it at UTSW. Name carries a lot with research in medicine and UTSW is one of the heavy weights everyone respects.
 
Syncrohnize said:
UTSW by far. Seems like your first priority is financial. As an MD/PhD you're delaying salary for 4-5 years. If you want to do basic science and get really involved, take a year off and do it at UTSW. Name carries a lot with research in medicine and UTSW is one of the heavy weights everyone respects.
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Thanks for the advice! I am probably going to do what you just described if I enjoy my research experiences.
 
Why did you apply MD/PhD? Was that path your dream?

Ranking shouldn’t be the big concern here. If you want MD/PhD then go that route. That said, yes, it’s a loss income route, but no debt either.
 
PreMedMissteps said:
Why did you apply MD/PhD? Was that path your dream?

Ranking shouldn’t be the big concern here. If you want MD/PhD then go that route. That said, yes, it’s a loss income route, but no debt either.
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TTUHSC has bad research (based on my personal experience). Even though I get less quantity of research at UTSW, my experience will be better.
 
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MSTP are NIH funded. The web page from Albert Einstein discusses other important differences between different flavors of MD PhD.

What does Texas Tech have?[/QUOTE]
Tech is not MSTP sadly. Only MD-PhD. In the acceptance letter they say it will take 2-3 years to finish to PhD, which has me raising a brow as well.
 
efaefae said:
MSTP are NIH funded. The web page from Albert Einstein discusses other important differences between different flavors of MD PhD.

What does Texas Tech have?
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Tech is not MSTP sadly. Only MD-PhD. In the acceptance letter they say it will take 2-3 years to finish to PhD, which has me raising a brow as well.[/QUOTE]

Does that mean funding for the PhD would last only 2-3 years?
 
MyOdyssey said:
Tech is not MSTP sadly. Only MD-PhD. In the acceptance letter they say it will take 2-3 years to finish to PhD, which has me raising a brow as well.
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Does that mean funding for the PhD would last only 2-3 years?[/QUOTE]
No, they said that the time to complete the PhD will be 2-3 years. Funding is for 8 years.
 
That's definitely not true. It will take 4 at the least. Two is absolutely ridiculous.
 
efaefae said:
Does that mean funding for the PhD would last only 2-3 years?
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No, they said that the time to complete the PhD will be 2-3 years. Funding is for 8 years.[/QUOTE]


I’m no expert but the MTSP MD/PhD students that Ive known (and Ive only known 3), they did MS1 and MS2, then 3 years for PhD, then MS3 and MS4. And, if needed, they could get funding for more than that.
 
Syncrohnize said:
That's definitely not true. It will take 4 at the least. Two is absolutely ridiculous.
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The average PhD length for an MD/PhD was 2 back in the 70s/80s, alas no more. 4 is avg. 3 is fast but it happens often enough, 5 probably more common than 3. Depends on the lab but I wouldn’t bet on 2-3 anywhere.
 
efaefae said:
Does that mean funding for the PhD would last only 2-3 years?
Click to expand...
No, they said that the time to complete the PhD will be 2-3 years. Funding is for 8 years.[/QUOTE]

On a different note, @efaefae, were you able to use English AP credits to satisfy the English requirement at UTSW?
 
MyOdyssey said:
No, they said that the time to complete the PhD will be 2-3 years. Funding is for 8 years.
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On a different note, @efaefae, were you able to use English AP credits to satisfy the English requirement at UTSW?[/QUOTE]


Maybe, I took eng in college so idk.
 
I'm a student at UTSW and never took english classes in college. All my english was AP credit, so I assume they accepted it.
 
narla_hotep said:
I'm a student at UTSW and never took english classes in college. All my english was AP credit, so I assume they accepted it.
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Interesting. So you received 6 credit hours for your AP English results? They were officially reported on your college transcript I assume?
 
Yep I think so, though I don't have a copy of my college transcript handy on the computer I'm using. The AP classes were definitely on my transcript but I don't remember if they were reported as a set number of hours. For reference, I took both AP Language and AP Lit, and got 5's on both exams.
 
Also, to weigh in about UTSW, it is definitely possible either to do a good amount of research as an MD, or to enter the MSTP program at a later stage in your degree. I actually know a guy who's done it. I wouldn't mess with an MD/PhD program that isn't MSTP accredited, but would suggest attending the better school and then getting involved in research once you're there.
 
narla_hotep said:
Yep I think so, though I don't have a copy of my college transcript handy on the computer I'm using. The AP classes were definitely on my transcript but I don't remember if they were reported as a set number of hours. For reference, I took both AP Language and AP Lit, and got 5's on both exams.
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Did any of the Texas state medical schools refuse to accept AP English credits in fulfillment of the 6 credit hour requirement?
 
narla_hotep said:
Also, to weigh in about UTSW, it is definitely possible either to do a good amount of research as an MD, or to enter the MSTP program at a later stage in your degree. I actually know a guy who's done it. I wouldn't mess with an MD/PhD program that isn't MSTP accredited, but would suggest attending the better school and then getting involved in research once you're there.
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What's the downside to a fully funded MD/PhD program that's not MSTP accredited?
 
Maybe I was being too harsh on non-MSTP MD/PhD programs... But basically, the MSTP designation is given to programs that are accredited and funded by the NIH. The stipend tends to be larger and funding is more secure (less chance of it somehow being decreased or defunded while you're there), and the programs are more well-known to places when you're applying for your residency and/or postdoc. Plus - and this is just my own experience - the MSTP accredited programs seem to be more legitimate and well structured. I applied to only one non MSTP program, and it just seemed a bit sketchy. The class size was only 2 new students per year, vs 10-15 at most other places, which makes it hard to foster a community among the students. Plus the program director seemed way overbooked with other things and not as responsive, plus they kept emailing me asking me to commit to their school or give up my spot way before the official deadline, which seemed unprofessional. But again, that's one place and may not reflect fully on other MD-PhD programs.

Also, in response to questions about other Texas medical schools, I'm honestly not sure because UTSW was the only school in Texas I applied to. I'm not a Texas resident and didn't want to do the TMDSAS, so I took advantage of UTSW allowing its MSTP applicants to just use their AMCAS application instead.
 
This seems like a question of do you like research well how much do you really like research. Do you want to have a career in research or just do some on the side? That should be your decision
 
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