Disciplinary Action?!?!

[CousinVinny]

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Here's the deal. My sister did a really stupid thing during the first week of her sophomore year. She wanted to do a drop/add for a class, i.e., drop a class and add another one in exchange, but her school makes students who want to do a drop/add get the advisor's signature. Well, she couldn't find her advisor anywhere, and there was only one spot left in the class she wanted to add, so she forged the guy's signature and got caught. The registrar had her fill the drop/add form out again and go see her advisor. She apologized to the advisor, and he actually thought it was a pretty funny, albeit stupid, thing to do.

Even after all that, the registrar reported her to the Dean of Student Affairs and he put her on disciplinary probation for the rest of her tenure at the university because that's the "standard punishment." She's currently in her third year, so that means she'll be applying this upcoming June, and she's kept this to herself this past year. She's starting to freak out though 'cause the application period is coming up and just told me about it. I don't know what to tell her considering I'm only a freshman. I suggested she talk to the Dean or a pre-med advisor about it, and the dean told her that he didn't think it was a big deal and didn't consider it an "institutional action." She didn't want to ask the pre-med advisor because if he doesn't know about it, why tell him? It doesn't appear anywhere on her transcript, and the registrar doesn't keep a record of this. The only person who has the file is the Dean of Student Affairs, and the only way someone can access this kind of record is usually through something like a court order or have you sign some sort of waiver. She doesn't want this to come back and bite her. Other than this her record is perfect.

Should something like this be reported to med schools? Do you know how much this is going to affect the application?

 

[aparecida]

I believe the AMCAS asks you to report disciplinary actions that have occurred even if there's no record of them. I would err on the side of caution and report it -- I would rather have them know from me than take the chance they might find out and then think I was being dishonest by not reporting it. I was on academic probation for a semester and I reported that even though I wasn't sure if it "counted" and it wasn't on my record.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

they do ask and so do some secondaries, you are signing that you have not stated any false information; that means neglecting to inform them of issues as well; report it; it shouldn't be that big of a deal; maybe the adcoms will think it's funny too...? 😛

 

[CousinVinny]

they do ask and so do some secondaries, you are signing that you have not stated any false information; that means neglecting to inform them of issues as well; report it; it shouldn't be that big of a deal; maybe the adcoms will think it's funny too...? 😛

I thought it was pretty funny too when she told me. I started to laugh, but then I noticed she had this pained look on her face and then she began crying. I felt awful. 😱 The thing is, she's never been in trouble. NEVER! So this is a pretty big deal to her, even if it's just a minor conduct violation. I always thought that if she were to ever get in trouble, it'd be for something minor and stupid because she just doesn't seem to be the person who knows how to do wrong.

Anyhow, I suppose honesty is the best policy. I mean, a med school isn't going to reject her based on something like this alone, right? Especially when she's got pretty much everything going for her. And if this is why she gets rejected, well, that's a kind of a petty reason.

 

[Art Vandalay]

That sucks. It's unfortunate that stupid things can mean so much to Adcoms and universities, but my advice would be for her to speak to her advisor. The fact of the matter is that the advisor will find out, and the schools she applies to will find out...if it's on her permanent record. It is a very minor thing but has the chance of affecting her. On her record, it probably won't explain everything that happened, which is something her advisor and pre-med committee can explain in her composite letter maybe. She can also explain it in her application also. Basically, more knowledgable advice within the university will help her take the necessary steps to fix the problem.

 

[cytoborg]

I mean, a med school isn't going to reject her based on something like this alone, right? Especially when she's got pretty much everything going for her. And if this is why she gets rejected, well, that's a kind of a petty reason.

Hmm...this is a tough one. I wouldn't advocate lying about it. But ethical issues are very important in medicine and even more important to adcoms, and this particular infraction might not be perceived as trivial. They don't know her well enough to know that she is basically a good person - they only see her on paper. Do they know she won't alter a record in a patient's chart to smooth over a medical error rather than own up to it? Will she forge a signature on a prescription pad? With things as competetive as they are, adcoms are looking for reasons to weed apps. Any doubt as to a candidate's honesty or integrity is serious and I would bet that she will lose interviews because of it. On the other hand we all make mistakes in our youth and some adcoms will probably see it that way...so chances are if they interview her, that means they don't care about it. She will have to keep her fingers crossed and be ready to discuss it in an honest and mature manner in an interview, should the subject come up.

 

[stinkycheese]

I dont think its such a minor thing. Forging a signature is totally immoral. She has to report it according to AMCAS rules.

 

[CousinVinny]

Hmm...this is a tough one. I wouldn't advocate lying about it. But ethical issues are very important in medicine and even more important to adcoms, and this particular infraction might not be perceived as trivial. They don't know her well enough to know that she is basically a good person - they only see her on paper. Do they know she won't alter a record in a patient's chart to smooth over a medical error rather than own up to it? Will she forge a signature on a prescription pad? With things as competetive as they are, adcoms are looking for reasons to weed apps. Any doubt as to a candidate's honesty or integrity is serious and I would bet that she will lose interviews because of it. On the other hand we all make mistakes in our youth and some adcoms will probably see it that way...so chances are if they interview her, that means they don't care about it. She will have to keep her fingers crossed and be ready to discuss it in an honest and mature manner in an interview, should the subject come up.

Well, I think that because she has seriously been thinking about this and wants to be upfront and honest is a sign of integrity. Come on, everyone makes mistakes. Some get caught and some don't. And some of those that do get caught even try to sweep it under the rug.

 

[CousinVinny]

Forging a signature is totally immoral.

No one said it wasn't... No need to point any fingers. I'm sure my sister feels awful. I don't know how I'd handle this if I were in her shoes. But I'm not, which makes it easier for me to think it's not that big of a deal, and easier for you to say it's a huge deal.

 

[stinkycheese]

No one said it wasn't... No need to point any fingers. I'm sure my sister feels awful. I don't know how I'd handle this if I were in her shoes. But I'm not, which makes it easier for me to think it's not that big of a deal, and easier for you to say it's a huge deal.

Your sister has already been caught, so no one is pointing fingers; the fact is that she did it. If you pulled a stunt like that at my college, you'd be expelled faster than you could say "forgery". Your sister probably does feel awful: because she was caught. It shows extremely poor judgment to forge a signature in the first place, so I question her judgment and moral grounding. I am sorry to be blunt, but what happens when she cant find her ward senior, so she - oops! - decides to forge their sig in a patient's chart?

 

[Code Brown]

the dean told her that he didn't think it was a big deal and didn't consider it an "institutional action."

This right here sums it up. The AMCAS Application asks for institutional action, which this was not. If some specific schools want anything at all that was disciplinary, then yes, she should, but worry about that with each individual secondary, not with AMCAS. It's similar to the felony question. You don't put misdemeanors on your AMCAS, but some schools want to know about misdemeanors as well, so you need to tell these specific schools about it. Some schools will be happy with the AMCAS question, while others want to dig deeper. It's like the Vermont question and the damn speeding tickets. No big deal to anyone but them. If she is worried about having to explain it, get a hold of this years secondaries and avoid any schools that ask for more than what AMCAS gives them.

 

[FlushingNemo]

Well, I think that because she has seriously been thinking about this and wants to be upfront and honest is a sign of integrity. Come on, everyone makes mistakes. Some get caught and some don't. And some of those that do get caught even try to sweep it under the rug.

I totally agree. People make mistakes, and it seems like your sister is trying to handle the situation as honestly as she can by asking for people's advice. Plus, you said it happened when she was a sophomore right? So she was about 19? People do dumb things when they're young. Better it happened then so she learn from it than somewhere later on down the line. And if she's truly learned from it and is caught in a similar situation when she's older, she'll have this to reflect on and, hopefully, make a better choice.

 

[FlushingNemo]

Your sister probably does feel awful: because she was caught. It shows extremely poor judgment to forge a signature in the first place, so I question her judgment and moral grounding. I am sorry to be blunt, but what happens when she cant find her ward senior, so she - oops! - decides to forge their sig in a patient's chart?

Hey, you don't know the person who was involved in this situation, so you shouldn't be so quick to condemn her. I think everyone here pretty much agrees that forging a signature, especially on something that sounds as insignificant as a drop/add form, is WRONG. But one action doesn't determine a person's character, a lifetime's worth does. Plus, if ADCOMs only cared about the black and white of a situation, i.e., simply whether or not an applicant has ever been subject to a disciplinary action, they wouldn't be alotting space for explanations. ADCOMs are composed of PEOPLE, who, most I'm sure, understand that PEOPLE make mistakes.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Hey, you don't know the person who was involved in this situation, so you shouldn't be so quick to condemn her. I think everyone here pretty much agrees that forging a signature, especially on something that sounds as insignificant as a drop/add form, is WRONG. But one action doesn't determine a person's character, a lifetime's worth does. Plus, if ADCOMs only cared about the black and white of a situation, i.e., simply whether or not an applicant has ever been subject to a disciplinary action, they wouldn't be alotting space for explanations. ADCOMs are composed of PEOPLE, who, most I'm sure, understand that PEOPLE make mistakes.

very well stated; good luck to your sister; she seems like a sincere remorseful person; and would probably make a great doctor; we all make mistakes

 

[FlushingNemo]

very well stated; good luck to your sister; she seems like a sincere remorseful person; and would probably make a great doctor; we all make mistakes

Um, not my sister, but I'll ditto the rest.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

oops sorry, i was thinking you were the OP 😳

 

[abraxas20]

I think you have to report it. And it is an institutional action.

I had to report academic probation and nothing bad came of it. I was asked in interviews and I explained what had happened. The important thing is not to make excuses.

😳

 

[Art Vandalay]

Hey, you don't know the person who was involved in this situation, so you shouldn't be so quick to condemn her. I think everyone here pretty much agrees that forging a signature, especially on something that sounds as insignificant as a drop/add form, is WRONG. But one action doesn't determine a person's character, a lifetime's worth does. Plus, if ADCOMs only cared about the black and white of a situation, i.e., simply whether or not an applicant has ever been subject to a disciplinary action, they wouldn't be alotting space for explanations. ADCOMs are composed of PEOPLE, who, most I'm sure, understand that PEOPLE make mistakes.

come on now... you can't equate the two. first of all, the advisor's signature means nothing... it's a formality. not that i condone her actions... she made a mistake, and i'm sure she's learned her lesson. do you think she's going to do this again? i don't think so. maybe if this event didn't occur... she would have made the accident later in life, but at the very least she'll be much more careful in the future about situations like this when it really matters.

 

[FlushingNemo]

come on now... you can't equate the two. first of all, the advisor's signature means nothing... it's a formality. not that i condone her actions... she made a mistake, and i'm sure she's learned her lesson. do you think she's going to do this again? i don't think so. maybe if this event didn't occur... she would have made the accident later in life, but at the very least she'll be much more careful in the future about situations like this when it really matters.

Probably is a formality... My advisor doesn't even advise me. He just sits and listens to me map out my plans. But then again, he probably rarely comes across someone with a curriculum like mine, so I'll let him off the hook. 😛

And as I said, better she mess up when she's young so she can learn from it. Plus, people seem to be more forgiving if it happened when you were young.