Discuss poor undergrad performance in PS?

[NonTraditional3]

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I wanted to get some insight on this...

Now, just as a disclaimer: I have a learning disorder. It is not a disability, it is a disorder. It impedes my functioning, it does not eliminate my functioning. I would also like to inform, before I write my post, that my learning disorder should not be likened to the other individials who make the claim that they have undiagnosed ADHD once they get to college and find they can't make the grade. I have seen a psychiatrist since I was diagnosed with an LD in grade 4, for medical management of my LD.

So this is a problem that I have always been faced with, and the degree to which I have been able to manage it has varied at different stages in my life, an apparent fluctuation is demonstrated by my college transcripts. Substantive downward trend from 3.9 to 3.2, as I made way from community college to a "real" university. In retrospect, I feel that although I relied on medication to manage my LD, perhaps medication alone was not sufficient when I entered a more competitive academic environment; I should have developed other habits and skills to help curb the extent to which my LD interfered with my studies. This realization, again, is in hindsight. Also, retrospectively, I think I became too comfortable with the idea that my LD, in the face of poor grades, may confer some forgiveness when applying to medical school; while it is indeed an obstacle that is difficult to overcome, I think any sympathy for this would be rescinded with the drastic fall in my classroom performance. I think when I had the idea that I would gain sympathy for this, that I became somewhat complacent in my studies. I would not say I had a poor study or work ethic, but rather that I strived for comfortability with my course material, when I really should have aimed for a mastery or command of the subject matter.

So, with all this said, and being out of college for a number of years, I have had time to reflect on my mistakes, what I am to blame for and what elements were beyond my control, etc. In this time, I have come to identify patterns in how and when my LD affects my concentration (at work, for example,) and have had the opportunity to develop non-medical strategies that substantively reduce (practically eliminate, actually) the consequences of my LD, when coupled with my medication. This extends to what am I doing when my medicine wears off, what am I doing when my effective blood level peaks, what can I avoid, temporal elements, etc. So, in short - I have conquered that which I felt powerless over when I was in college, my LD.

Now, I am not keen on trying to use this necessarily as a mask to hide behind regarding my poor grades in college, but it was a substantive factor nontheless. I am not blaming poor grades on my LD entirely, but to some considerable degree it played a role.

I have been studying for the MCAT for quite some time now, and I think that my new attitude regarding studying coupled with my non-medical LD management skills, will yield a promising result on test day. However, this does not change what has happened already, so I am looking toward what lays ahead, instead of trying to justify what is behind. I will be starting a MS degree in september, because I have ~3.15 in my prerequisite courses, albeit they were taken mostly at community college, I got mostly A's, a few B's (B in Orgo II, B+ in Chem II, B in Calc I) but what really dragged this number down was a D in Physics I (first attempt,) with a B- on second attempt and a B+ in Physics II. Physics was taken at "real" college, not community college. My cGPA is a 3.31, and my BCMP is a 3.2. Anyway, the point is with the exception of Physics, I have not done so terrible in my pre-requisite classes, and they do not necessarily need to be retaken, so I err away from taking more undergraduate coursework, when I could instead put that money towards an "advanced" degree that I could use to make myself not only a more appealing applicant, but a more appealing candidate in the job market should medical school not work out the first time I apply. I will not be taking classes alongside medical students in my MS classes, but the available courses include things like histology, pathology, physiology, biochemistry, molecular biology, immunology, cell biology - basically, disciplines emphasized in the pre-clinical years, though maybe without an emphasis on human disease and discussed more in the context of model organisms and research.

I am inclined, that, if I can apply my new skill set that I use to manage my LD, to earn high scores in my classes at the masters level, then I could definitely do the same thing in medical school. Thus, my low GPA from undergrad, may not be an accurate determinant of aptitude to succeed in medical school, since I have grown into an able-minded, responsible, committed student.


So, now after all that - here is the point I am driving at. Since I have such a low GPA, something needs to stand out in my PS so that I can avoid my being precluded from being considered worthy of at least an interview invitation. I figured the AMCAS PS might be an opportunity to, in addition to discussing my motivations to become an MD, describe how I have overcome my LD, citing my recent excellence in the classroom at a level above that in undergraduate, and how my past in no way reflects my current capabilities and my potential to succeed in medical school.

I was hoping that some people might weigh in with their thoughts on this? Discussing poor uGPA (not necessarily citing the numbers, since they'll have that information available anyway) in my PS?

 

[startingover84]

I read your whole post. It's inspiring.

However.

You need to look at the PS as a sort of cover letter. Would you send a cover letter that says, "Sorry this part of my resume sucks, but ..." I hope not. Please just focus on the positive in your PS.

A lot of secondaries have a space to discuss anything "negative." You can write about overcoming your LD there.

 

[MedPR]

I didn't read the whole thing. I stopped at the part where you said your GPA went from a 3.9 at community college to a 3.2 at a "real" university. Learning disorder or not, that's a very tough, if not impossible, trend to explain. It could've been coincidence that your learning disorder flared up when you went to a more rigorous program, but in the eyes of an ADCOM, it's probably more likely that you just couldn't handle the work.

I did skim the rest of it and did see the part about you seeming to think that your PS will partially save you from your GPA. It can if and only if your GPA doesn't get you screened out in the first place. I had a low GPA my first two years and I addressed it very briefly in my PS. What do I mean by "very briefly"? One sentence. One single lousy sentence. Basically "My GPA sucked because I was an idiot." I then spent 3-4 sentences explaining what I learned and why/how I turned it around. It's more important to focus on your reflections, what you learned, and how you improved.

You most definitely need to do well on your MCAT to prove your downward trend wrong. Personally I have an upward trend from a 1.41 to a 3.78 in undergrad (120 credits), then a 4.0 (30 credits) postbacc at a community college. ADCOMs will likely view my 4.0 at CC and wonder if I did so well because the classes were so much easier. I believe that's a reasonable assumption for anyone to make. If it should come up in an interview, I will just remind them of my upward trend in undergraduate (all at the same "real" university), tell them to "look at my MCAT score" (in a more elegant way, obviously), and elaborate a little more on the explanation I provided in my PS. I was a bad student, figured it out, became committed, and my GPA went up. It's that simple.

If I hadn't scored well on my MCAT, though, it would be much harder for me to make them believe that I can perform well in rigorous academic environments, not just community college. I think you will face a similar problem, and that's why I suggest you study your butt off for the MCAT and absolutely kill it.

Good luck to you!

 

[NonTraditional3]

I read your whole post. It's inspiring.

However.

You need to look at the PS as a sort of cover letter. Would you send a cover letter that says, "Sorry this part of my resume sucks, but ..." I hope not. Please just focus on the positive in your PS.

A lot of secondaries have a space to discuss anything "negative." You can write about overcoming your LD there.

That's just the thing though; for me, overcoming my LD is a positive, and it is evidenced by said upward academic trend from UG to Masters. I am torn because it is so central to my decision to go back to school and become a physician, and I would like to foster a discussion of my poor gpa in this context, so when the schools review my primary app, they don't just formulate a hypothesis of "poor applicant" based on my UG gpa while deemphasizing my masters performance. On the same token, I know this is a negative element of my application, but I do not want to appear as if I avoiding my flaws - I want to demonstrate that I am the kind of person, now, who addresses their faults and acts to better them. I worry that if I leave to the secondary, well, I might be invited to complete less secondaries than if I made clear to the ADCOM the radical growth I have seen since finishing my Bachelors...

 

[NonTraditional3]

You most definitely need to do well on your MCAT to prove your downward trend wrong......I think you will face a similar problem, and that's why I suggest you study your butt off for the MCAT and absolutely kill it.

Good luck to you!

Thank you; yes, I am aware of what I am up against, and if LizzyM scores are an accurate reflection of trends in the application process, I would need 37 or 38 to get past the auto-screens at schools that do an auto-screen. I've been studying for the MCAT upwards of 5 hours a day, every day, since February 15th. I am ten days away from completing a comprehensive and repetitive content review, and then it is nothing but practice exams and questions and review from there.
I took my first practice Full Length to establish a baseline; My baseline is 34, which I don't think is so terrible for a first pass on a Full Length..

 

[QofQuimica]

I didn't read that whole tome either. But the answer to your question in general is no. Your PS should be answering the question, "why medicine," not explaining why you have low grades from UG. So focus on explaining why you want to go to medical school. If the interviewers want to know why you have some low grades, they'll ask you about it at the interviews.

 

[NonTraditional3]

I didn't read that whole tome either. But the answer to your question in general is no. Your PS should be answering the question, "why medicine," not explaining why you have low grades from UG. So focus on explaining why you want to go to medical school. If the interviewers want to know why you have some low grades, they'll ask you about it at the interviews.

Again, not trying to be argumentative with anyone on here, BUT: non-Trads seem to be expected to explain "why now?" in addition to "why medicine?"; if it weren't for this time taken off, to work on handling my LD, I would likely not be on the path to apply to medical school; I feel like this experience, overcoming my own obstacle, will allow me to better help others overcome elements that are NOT in their control, (ie, chronic illness, cancer, death, etc) - thus it is the final affirmation (in a series of many) that I need to pursue this field. And again, I want to make it known that I have an LD, so that my academics pre-interview will be reviewed in the context of how I overcame my LD, and why this leaves me poised for success in med school - as opposed to just "wow, great essay....oh, wait a second....look at this piss poor undergraduate GPA...." so with that in mind, if it doe not occupy a substantive amount of my essay, is it so terrible to mention? I don't want to come off as having not addressed my faults, and make it known that I am absolutely 100% certain that I not only want to go to medical school, but that I have what it takes to make it in medical school, and in my career.

 

[DrMidlife]

Again, not trying to be argumentative with anyone on here, BUT: non-Trads seem to be expected to explain "why now?" in addition to "why medicine?"; if it weren't for this time taken off, to work on handling my LD, I would likely not be on the path to apply to medical school;

The average age of an M1 is over 24 now, and lots of med students are over 40. "Why now" is not actually all that interesting if you're under 30.

The question you should be focusing on is "Why you instead of any one of these 10 other applicants who have also struggled to overcome obstacles, yet have competitive, confidence-inspiring numbers?"

I feel like this experience, overcoming my own obstacle, will allow me to better help others overcome elements that are NOT in their control, (ie, chronic illness, cancer, death, etc) - thus it is the final affirmation (in a series of many) that I need to pursue this field. And again, I want to make it known that I have an LD, so that my academics pre-interview will be reviewed in the context of how I overcame my LD, and why this leaves me poised for success in med school - as opposed to just "wow, great essay....oh, wait a second....look at this piss poor undergraduate GPA...." so with that in mind, if it doe not occupy a substantive amount of my essay, is it so terrible to mention? I don't want to come off as having not addressed my faults, and make it known that I am absolutely 100% certain that I not only want to go to medical school, but that I have what it takes to make it in medical school, and in my career.

Look. You're starting an SMP. That's an audition for med school. Your app will be substantially more compelling with a successful and completed SMP performance in it.

You scheduled the MCAT so that your score won't be back until August. That's late.

You have a very weak narrative right now - you won't win friends with "I beat ADHD so please forgive my 3.2." Your 3.2 is this loud compared to your experience managing your DL. You could have a very strong narrative this time next year, such as "I have worked long and hard to improve my focus and overcome my academic weaknesses...see my SMP 3.7+ and 31+ MCAT".

If you're thinking you should be getting ready to apply this summer, that's the biggest problem here. You're not ready to apply.

Kill the MCAT, kill the SMP, gather your app assets, and apply early. That means June 1 with the best possible app you can build. Next year, not this year.

Now: one good reason to not get into DL and ADHD and self-management is that you are giving med schools a spatula to flip your app into the recycling bin. Stress worsens symptoms. Long hours worsen symptoms. From day one in med school you're looking at piles of stress and piles of hours. As with depression, recent success with symptom management might make your mom happy, but physicians know about long term management ups and downs...and those downs make you a remediation risk. Don't make it so easy for them to say no.

Lastly, an SMP is a terminal masters degree, which exists for the sole purpose of improving med school chances with a low GPA. Great for getting into med school. Absolutely useless for the job market. Don't kid yourself. And don't use the excuse of "oh I'll just get C's and take this MS into the job market" to get out of studying your fanny off to get into med school. Give yourself an exit door and all you'll want, 6 months from now, is to run screaming through it.

Best of luck to you.

 

[QofQuimica]

Again, not trying to be argumentative with anyone on here, BUT: non-Trads seem to be expected to explain "why now?" in addition to "why medicine?"; if it weren't for this time taken off, to work on handling my LD, I would likely not be on the path to apply to medical school; I feel like this experience, overcoming my own obstacle, will allow me to better help others overcome elements that are NOT in their control, (ie, chronic illness, cancer, death, etc) - thus it is the final affirmation (in a series of many) that I need to pursue this field. And again, I want to make it known that I have an LD, so that my academics pre-interview will be reviewed in the context of how I overcame my LD, and why this leaves me poised for success in med school - as opposed to just "wow, great essay....oh, wait a second....look at this piss poor undergraduate GPA...." so with that in mind, if it doe not occupy a substantive amount of my essay, is it so terrible to mention? I don't want to come off as having not addressed my faults, and make it known that I am absolutely 100% certain that I not only want to go to medical school, but that I have what it takes to make it in medical school, and in my career.

Maybe I'm just tired and cranky (well, that's the norm for my stage in training), and maybe I'm just skeptical that dealing with a LD gives one much insight into what it's like to be a physician. I don't have a LD, so it's hard for me to sympathize, as much as I might try to empathize. But I'll leave you with two other points before I take my cranky self to bed:

1) I encounter patients and families dealing with cancer and death on a regular basis, and I plain don't like the notion of equating someone dealing with a LD to someone dealing with cancer and death. Sorry, but the very suggestion really rubs me the wrong way. A LD is not a terminal disease. Dealing with a LD is not the same as dealing with someone dying. The first time you see the look in someone's eyes when you give them that kind of bad news will be the last time you think of those things as being remotely similar to having a LD. Maybe (hopefully?) that's not what you actually meant. But I still say, don't go there.

2) If you've already made the decision to discuss the LD in your PS, why ask us for advice? It's your PS, and you are free to put whatever you want in there. Maybe discussing how the LD influenced you to go to med school will find a more sympathetic audience than I am, and you can come back in six months or a year and tell us "toldja so." I hope you can. I don't usually like being proven wrong, but this is one of the few types of situations where I do enjoy being proven wrong. I like seeing an underdog beat the odds regardless, but especially when they do it while overcoming the extra obstacles that they self-created when they insisted on forging their own path.

Nighty-night, y'all.

 

[MedPR]

The average age of an M1 is over 24 now, and lots of med students are over 40. "Why now" is not actually all that interesting if you're under 30.

The question you should be focusing on is "Why you instead of any one of these 10 other applicants who have also struggled to overcome obstacles, yet have competitive, confidence-inspiring numbers?"

Look. You're starting an SMP. That's an audition for med school. Your app will be substantially more compelling with a successful and completed SMP performance in it.

You scheduled the MCAT so that your score won't be back until August. That's late.

You have a very weak narrative right now - you won't win friends with "I beat ADHD so please forgive my 3.2." Your 3.2 is this loud compared to your experience managing your DL. You could have a very strong narrative this time next year, such as "I have worked long and hard to improve my focus and overcome my academic weaknesses...see my SMP 3.7+ and 31+ MCAT".

If you're thinking you should be getting ready to apply this summer, that's the biggest problem here. You're not ready to apply.

Kill the MCAT, kill the SMP, gather your app assets, and apply early. That means June 1 with the best possible app you can build. Next year, not this year.

Now: one good reason to not get into DL and ADHD and self-management is that you are giving med schools a spatula to flip your app into the recycling bin. Stress worsens symptoms. Long hours worsen symptoms. From day one in med school you're looking at piles of stress and piles of hours. As with depression, recent success with symptom management might make your mom happy, but physicians know about long term management ups and downs...and those downs make you a remediation risk. Don't make it so easy for them to say no.

Lastly, an SMP is a terminal masters degree, which exists for the sole purpose of improving med school chances with a low GPA. Great for getting into med school. Absolutely useless for the job market. Don't kid yourself. And don't use the excuse of "oh I'll just get C's and take this MS into the job market" to get out of studying your fanny off to get into med school. Give yourself an exit door and all you'll want, 6 months from now, is to run screaming through it.

Best of luck to you.

Maybe I'm just tired and cranky (well, that's the norm for my stage in training), and maybe I'm just skeptical that dealing with a LD gives one much insight into what it's like to be a physician. I don't have a LD, so it's hard for me to sympathize, as much as I might try to empathize. But I'll leave you with two other points before I take my cranky self to bed:

1) I encounter patients and families dealing with cancer and death on a regular basis, and I plain don't like the notion of equating someone dealing with a LD to someone dealing with cancer and death. Sorry, but the very suggestion really rubs me the wrong way. A LD is not a terminal disease. Dealing with a LD is not the same as dealing with someone dying. The first time you see the look in someone's eyes when you give them that kind of bad news will be the last time you think of those things as being remotely similar to having a LD. Maybe (hopefully?) that's not what you actually meant. But I still say, don't go there.

2) If you've already made the decision to discuss the LD in your PS, why ask us for advice? It's your PS, and you are free to put whatever you want in there. Maybe discussing how the LD influenced you to go to med school will find a more sympathetic audience than I am, and you can come back in six months or a year and tell us "toldja so." I hope you can. I don't usually like being proven wrong, but this is one of the few types of situations where I do enjoy being proven wrong. I like seeing an underdog beat the odds regardless, but especially when they do it while overcoming the extra obstacles that they self-created when they insisted on forging their own path.

Nighty-night, y'all.

OP, you're getting great advice from two of the wisest and most respected members on SDN. If you're going to believe anyone, believe them.

 

[NonTraditional3]

The average age of an M1 is over 24 now, and lots of med students are over 40. "Why now" is not actually all that interesting if you're under 30.

The question you should be focusing on is "Why you instead of any one of these 10 other applicants who have also struggled to overcome obstacles, yet have competitive, confidence-inspiring numbers?"

Look. You're starting an SMP. That's an audition for med school. Your app will be substantially more compelling with a successful and completed SMP performance in it.

You scheduled the MCAT so that your score won't be back until August. That's late.

You have a very weak narrative right now - you won't win friends with "I beat ADHD so please forgive my 3.2." Your 3.2 is this loud compared to your experience managing your DL. You could have a very strong narrative this time next year, such as "I have worked long and hard to improve my focus and overcome my academic weaknesses...see my SMP 3.7+ and 31+ MCAT".

If you're thinking you should be getting ready to apply this summer, that's the biggest problem here. You're not ready to apply.

Kill the MCAT, kill the SMP, gather your app assets, and apply early. That means June 1 with the best possible app you can build. Next year, not this year.

Now: one good reason to not get into DL and ADHD and self-management is that you are giving med schools a spatula to flip your app into the recycling bin. Stress worsens symptoms. Long hours worsen symptoms. From day one in med school you're looking at piles of stress and piles of hours. As with depression, recent success with symptom management might make your mom happy, but physicians know about long term management ups and downs...and those downs make you a remediation risk. Don't make it so easy for them to say no.

Lastly, an SMP is a terminal masters degree, which exists for the sole purpose of improving med school chances with a low GPA. Great for getting into med school. Absolutely useless for the job market. Don't kid yourself. And don't use the excuse of "oh I'll just get C's and take this MS into the job market" to get out of studying your fanny off to get into med school. Give yourself an exit door and all you'll want, 6 months from now, is to run screaming through it.

Best of luck to you.

Hi, thanks for reading all my posts and for your insight. No no, I am not studying in an SMP - it is a masters degree in the biomedical sciences that students can finish in 3 semesters to 3 years, depending on FT v. PT, summer coursework, etc. I am taking the MCAT this summer, so if I need to retake it, then I have the extra year to prepare for that. I realize I lose a year of MCAT score eligibility, but I am ok with that. I picked this over an SMP, so that I can also volunteer and shadow, improve those areas of my application. I plan on completing the MS in 4 semesters, with coursework during the summer; would like to apply while doing the MS so after I finish 2nd year I can start medical school right away without my loans maturing...

Do you think, instead of in the PS, I could bring attention to overcoming my LD through a LOR? One of my professors who wrote LOR for when I applied to MS told me he discussed that I manage my LD well, and that my ability to do so has played a role in my success in his course (level 400 physiology with heavy biophysics emphasis) and will continue to serve me in graduate school...maybe they could do the same for MD? Good Idea or Bad Idea? Do they review letters as part of primary review typically?

And on the subject of remediation risk, etc: If I am doing well in my MS, would this not serve as evidence that I truly have overcome my LD, and that it is a thing of the past? Or does the sentiment "people change" not apply in this context? i was not going to say "look I beat my LD, so let me in" but I was thinking about mentioning how I have grown, and how my positive experience in masters classroom shows that my undergraduate is not a reflection of my present abilities; emphasize the MS experience as the vehicle through which I affirmed my LD is a thing of thr past in the PS, so they emphsize what I've done more recently, and not my undergrad....?

I am not being argumentative, I'm just trying to wrap my head around everything is all.

Thanks, hope to hear back soon!

 

[DrMidlife]

Hi, thanks for reading all my posts and for your insight. No no, I am not studying in an SMP - it is a masters degree in the biomedical sciences that students can finish in 3 semesters to 3 years, depending on FT v. PT, summer coursework, etc. I am taking the MCAT this summer, so if I need to retake it, then I have the extra year to prepare for that. I realize I lose a year of MCAT score eligibility, but I am ok with that. I picked this over an SMP, so that I can also volunteer and shadow, improve those areas of my application. I plan on completing the MS in 4 semesters, with coursework during the summer; would like to apply while doing the MS

I misread. I think you've overestimated the ability of regular grad school to get you into med school from a 3.2. I suggest you should spend some quality time reading the low GPA success stories here and in the postbac forum.

so after I finish 2nd year I can start medical school right away without my loans maturing...

Presumably by "not maturing" you mean "not requiring payments to be made". Maturing is what an investment does before you can cash it out.

Do you think, instead of in the PS, I could bring attention to overcoming my LD through a LOR? One of my professors who wrote LOR for when I applied to MS told me he discussed that I manage my LD well, and that my ability to do so has played a role in my success in his course (level 400 physiology with heavy biophysics emphasis) and will continue to serve me in graduate school...maybe they could do the same for MD? Good Idea or Bad Idea? Do they review letters as part of primary review typically?

You'll get that spatula in the hands of reviewers by any means necessary, yes?

And on the subject of remediation risk, etc: If I am doing well in my MS, would this not serve as evidence that I truly have overcome my LD, and that it is a thing of the past?

If you truly believe you've overcome your LD, you're in big trouble. If you were serious, you'd be very nervous and not at all certain about what you'll have to do during med school to keep yourself sane under the pressure.

Or does the sentiment "people change" not apply in this context?

This isn't a "people change" issue. You can't have it both ways - it's either a serious disorder for which you want credit for learning to control, or it's no big deal. Pick.

i was not going to say "look I beat my LD, so let me in" but I was thinking about mentioning how I have grown, and how my positive experience in masters classroom shows that my undergraduate is not a reflection of my present abilities; emphasize the MS experience as the vehicle through which I affirmed my LD is a thing of thr past in the PS, so they emphsize what I've done more recently, and not my undergrad....?

You really want that spatula, don't you. Engraved with your name, maybe with a custom grip that gives a nice flipping action, maybe a recylables-seeking sensor to help with aim...

 

[ShoTyme]

OP, you're getting great advice from two of the wisest and most respected members on SDN. If you're going to believe anyone, believe them.

+1 yo.

 

[NonTraditional3]

Maybe I'm just tired and cranky (well, that's the norm for my stage in training), and maybe I'm just skeptical that dealing with a LD gives one much insight into what it's like to be a physician. I don't have a LD, so it's hard for me to sympathize, as much as I might try to empathize. But I'll leave you with two other points before I take my cranky self to bed:

1) I encounter patients and families dealing with cancer and death on a regular basis, and I plain don't like the notion of equating someone dealing with a LD to someone dealing with cancer and death. Sorry, but the very suggestion really rubs me the wrong way. A LD is not a terminal disease. Dealing with a LD is not the same as dealing with someone dying. The first time you see the look in someone's eyes when you give them that kind of bad news will be the last time you think of those things as being remotely similar to having a LD. Maybe (hopefully?) that's not what you actually meant. But I still say, don't go there.

Nighty-night, y'all.

Noooooo no no no no no, NO. I did not mean to liken my struggle with an LD, to what those patients with life threating illnesses go through. What I meant, was, it has been a tough road for me; and I am coming out on top, I like to think. With that in mind, it seems, if I have been able conquer my own problems, which I have struggled with most of my life, I feel like this leaves me well poised to encourage others to not let the **** hand of cards that they've been dealt, consume them. This could take the form of being there, emotionally, for a patient who is debating doing DNR, being there to spend time with a sick kid because he is living in the hospital and his parents are away on a buisness trip and he is all alone with noone to lean on. Having conquered the most challenging thing in my life, I can now go on to help others, and put their needs before mine. Having a handle on my LD, I can approach my career with altruism, not worriment of self (something I used to do, ALOT, before I took control of my LD.)

I NEVER meant to imply that a LD is like cancer or death. But, I should mention, that I have watched cancer consume the soul; it took both my grandparents, and it almost left me an orphan. I already lost my dad to multiple system organ failure. I'm very well poised to console others during a dark hour, because I've gone through it myself. The LD makes things harder for me, but I still came out on top. That's really where the sentiment came from; not that LD is like a tumor or renal failure. It's not. Sorry if I mislead you to believe I'm that guy, because I'm not.

Anyway, thank you all the advice; consensus is discuss growth and accomplishment, but not necessarily as an offshoot of my LD. So that's what I'll do 🙂

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Do not argue with Q or Midlife. They are right.
You do not put this in your PS.

 

[QofQuimica]

Noooooo no no no no no, NO. I did not mean to liken my struggle with an LD, to what those patients with life threating illnesses go through. What I meant, was, it has been a tough road for me; and I am coming out on top, I like to think. With that in mind, it seems, if I have been able conquer my own problems, which I have struggled with most of my life, I feel like this leaves me well poised to encourage others to not let the **** hand of cards that they've been dealt, consume them. This could take the form of being there, emotionally, for a patient who is debating doing DNR, being there to spend time with a sick kid because he is living in the hospital and his parents are away on a buisness trip and he is all alone with noone to lean on. Having conquered the most challenging thing in my life, I can now go on to help others, and put their needs before mine. Having a handle on my LD, I can approach my career with altruism, not worriment of self (something I used to do, ALOT, before I took control of my LD.)

See, but that's what I'm saying. Making this argument at best sounds hopelessly naive, and at worst sounds like you're making light of life and death kind of issues. You are going to be a doctor, not a social worker. You won't be there to comfort the sick kid whose parents are out of town; that's what we have child life specialists for. You'll explain the DNR options to the family and/or the patient, but you won't be sitting there all day giving them emotional support either. You can't do that; you have other patients who need your help, too. Even if you chose to spend all of your free time comforting patients, there will still always be more misery to go round than there are hours left in your lifetime. And you'll have no life or self.

Don't get me wrong: a modicum of altruism is a good thing. I'd argue that no one should go into any medical field if they don't legitimately want to help other people on some level. But just as it's bad to primarily go into medicine for selfish reasons, it's also bad to immolate yourself. You have to carve out some space for yourself and acknowledge the existence of your needs and wants, too. You won't help anyone, including yourself, by burning yourself out.

I NEVER meant to imply that a LD is like cancer or death. But, I should mention, that I have watched cancer consume the soul; it took both my grandparents, and it almost left me an orphan. I already lost my dad to multiple system organ failure. I'm very well poised to console others during a dark hour, because I've gone through it myself. The LD makes things harder for me, but I still came out on top. That's really where the sentiment came from; not that LD is like a tumor or renal failure. It's not. Sorry if I mislead you to believe I'm that guy, because I'm not.

Now I'm left wondering why the LD, and not the loss of your grandparents/dad, was the hardest challenge in your life. But again, maybe I'm just not understanding how big of an impediment to your life the LD really was.

Do not argue with Q or Midlife.

Thanks, though I want to say that no one should feel like they can't or shouldn't argue with me. I'm farther along the road than most of you are, but I'm not omniscient. And appealing to authority isn't a valid way to win an argument. (Not saying that you're doing this, SBB; just wanting to emphasize that people shouldn't take my opinions as the gospel. Even though they are. 😉)

 

[DrMidlife]

people shouldn't take my opinions as the gospel. Even though they are. 😉)

Ditto.

 

[NonTraditional3]

You have all given me much to consider here; I prefer to be guided. It seems that, instead of providing a discussion of my LD and the obstacles it has presented, that it would be better to provide a discussion that places some emphasis on my academic pursuits subsequent to undergrad (i.e., graduate school) and how my success in my MS coursework has prepared me to undertake a medical curriculum; that "now" (ie, june 2013), more than ever before in my "pre-med career" I am prepared to make the necessary sacrifices and commitment that will allow me to thrive into a competent physician - that my research and graduate experiences served as the final affirmation/inspiration in a series of many, to pursue my long-held desire of becoming a physician.

Does this seem like a better strategy than what I posited in my earlier posts?

 

[jl lin]

To NonTraditional3:

I am by far not as expert as others here. I think maybe I sort of get where you are coming from as a spectator of sorts; but that is limited in perspective. As far as I know, I don't have a LD or learning disability.


One thought comes to mind. Post your question to those that have gotten into medical school with a similar disorder or disability of some kind. I would think they might be able to give you the kind of insight you seek. It is hard to get this kind of perspective from those that cannot relate. And those that have had or have serious mood disorders may be able to give to you some insight from their experiences.

I think that I agree that you shouldn't make too much of this in your PS. If you are "bigger," so to speak, that your DL, then communicate in such a way that shows that you are so much more than one thing-- like your DL, for example. Truth is, to one degree or another, everyone has to work on overcoming various obstacles. Medicine and healthcare is pretty much about dealing with serious hardship and stress. Life is about getting back up, over and over, after serious hardship. Some people may seem to have less of this than others, but I think mostly it's about timing. Sooner or later, hardship will find its way to a person’s door. It's not like any of us have to go looking for it. Perseverance, however, is the key.

And that brings me to where I believe you should put your focus in your PS. Simply mention what your DL has brought to you. Believe it or not, you can look at it as a gift of sorts. Find a way to smoothly incorporate how it has strengthened you in terms of perseverance and other in other ways. Don't, however, make it the centerpiece of your PS! The PS is about you and what moves you to climb this giant, steep, and rocky hill called medicine.

Don't know if that is helpful, but I wish you the best.

 

[NonTraditional3]

Now I'm left wondering why the LD, and not the loss of your grandparents/dad, was the hardest challenge in your life. But again, maybe I'm just not understanding how big of an impediment to your life the LD really was.

I should add, that these tragedies I have faced, will indeed be discussed in my PS; insomuch as these were tremendous influences for my desire to become a physician, it is difficult to quantify how I have grown from them; maybe it has conferred some mental toughness? Sure. Did I walk a path where my experiences allow me to identify with and relate to patients and their families in their darkest hour when faced with similar circumstances of death and disease? Absolutely. Were these traits something I had to work at developing? Meh, I have a hard time making that case for myself; death of a loved one is something that you just kinda eventually come to terms with as time passes, at least that was the case for me. Also, it is difficult to describe these situations without making myself seem victimized by them; I am including them in my PS, but only to preface the discussion that I have seen the clinical environment from both the perspective of a patient/concerned family member as well as that perspective of the health care professional. To shed light that I understand the tremendous impact illness can have on a person, far beyond what is happening inside their body. So I discuss these in the beginning as a pretext, but then describe how my emotions led to action (premed in college, volunteering, graduate school) and how this action affirmed my desire to become a physician.

Could I get your thoughts on this as well?

To NonTraditional3:

I am by far not as expert as others here. I think maybe I sort of get where you are coming from as a spectator of sorts; but that is limited in perspective. As far as I know, I don't have a LD or learning disability.


One thought comes to mind. Post your question to those that have gotten into medical school with a similar disorder or disability of some kind. I would think they might be able to give you the kind of insight you seek. It is hard to get this kind of perspective from those that cannot relate. And those that have had or have serious mood disorders may be able to give to you some insight from their experiences.

I think that I agree that you shouldn't make too much of this in your PS. If you are "bigger," so to speak, that your DL, then communicate in such a way that shows that you are so much more than one thing-- like your DL, for example. Truth is, to one degree or another, everyone has to work on overcoming various obstacles. Medicine and healthcare is pretty much about dealing with serious hardship and stress. Life is about getting back up, over and over, after serious hardship. Some people may seem to have less of this than others, but I think mostly it's about timing. Sooner or later, hardship will find its way to a person's door. It's not like any of us have to go looking for it. Perseverance, however, is the key.

And that brings me to where I believe you should put your focus in your PS. Simply mention what your DL has brought to you. Believe it or not, you can look at it as a gift of sorts. Find a way to smoothly incorporate how it has strengthened you in terms of perseverance and other in other ways. Don't, however, make it the centerpiece of your PS! The PS is about you and what moves you to climb this giant, steep, and rocky hill called medicine.

Don't know if that is helpful, but I wish you the best.

No, it would not have been the centerpeice, per se; more like a transition paragraph between family experiences and what I have done to immerse myself in the clinical setting and biomedical research.

In any case, a moot point, because it will likely recieve no mention having heard what QoQ and Dr.Mid have said here.

 

[QofQuimica]

So I discuss these in the beginning as a pretext, but then describe how my emotions led to action (premed in college, volunteering, graduate school) and how this action affirmed my desire to become a physician.

Could I get your thoughts on this as well?

I was a student adcom for four years while I was in med school, and this is one of the most common premed essay themes: The writer had a family member with a serious illness, which got the writer interested in medicine, and the writer then went on to have X, Y, and Z experiences which cemented their interest in medicine. It's unlikely to make you stand out, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Medicine is the kind of profession where the nail that sticks out too much tends to get hammered down hard. You're definitely better off not standing out than you are standing out for the wrong reasons.

Best of luck. 🙂

 

[jl lin]

I should add, that these tragedies I have faced, will indeed be discussed in my PS; insomuch as these were tremendous influences for my desire to become a physician, it is difficult to quantify how I have grown from them; maybe it has conferred some mental toughness? Sure. Did I walk a path where my experiences allow me to identify with and relate to patients and their families in their darkest hour when faced with similar circumstances of death and disease? Absolutely. Were these traits something I had to work at developing? Meh, I have a hard time making that case for myself; death of a loved one is something that you just kinda eventually come to terms with as time passes, at least that was the case for me. Also, it is difficult to describe these situations without making myself seem victimized by them; I am including them in my PS, but only to preface the discussion that I have seen the clinical environment from both the perspective of a patient/concerned family member as well as that perspective of the health care professional. To shed light that I understand the tremendous impact illness can have on a person, far beyond what is happening inside their body. So I discuss these in the beginning as a pretext, but then describe how my emotions led to action (premed in college, volunteering, graduate school) and how this action affirmed my desire to become a physician.

Could I get your thoughts on this as well?





No, it would not have been the centerpeice, per se; more like a transition paragraph between family experiences and what I have done to immerse myself in the clinical setting and biomedical research.

In any case, a moot point, because it will likely recieve no mention having heard what QoQ and Dr.Mid have said here.

I don't know about the loss of a loved one perspective. I guess it sort of depends on various things. I had a very close loved one die a horrible death over a year's time. The death/loss was hard, but all the stress and struggle in-between--within that year--was absolutely overwhelming for so many reasons. The constant ups and downs--the periods of vacillation--the horrendous course of treatment. Add to it multiple stressors and trials that occurred concurrently. . . it was really tough. So many of these trials and struggles can really depend on the details. They are hard to quantify, and often very difficult to describe.

As a nurse, years pass, and I still hear the screams of pain and grief from certain mom's of babies and children in the ICU as they were forced to face the loss of their children. You more than hear them. . .you feel the intensity of the energy. . .very unnerving. You are left with inner prayers for them and no real words of comfort. . .just quiet tears and hugs if they receive them. People do deal with such losses differently. The mix of grief and anger is often tough to deal with. It's not so much what you say afterward. I think people remember the genuine care and concern that you gave during the course that led to the end.




Whatever you decide, it is recommended that you get some choice people to review you PS, as you probably know. That may help give you insight.

As I said, I genuinely wish you the best

 

[jl lin]

Medicine is the kind of profession where the nail that sticks out too much tends to get hammered down hard.

Best of luck. 🙂

Wow. Not in medicine yet, but I can share that I have seen this many times in healthcare as a nurse. Totally true and quotable.

 

[akinetopsia]

In your PS, you are selling yourself.

It's tricky to write something compelling, and it is difficult to write about yourself. You received some advice above from two very helpful posters on SDN.

What I would suggest, in addition to their advice above, is that you bring up the LD in your interviews, which, if you can write a good PS and sell yourself to the reader, you should be able to obtain.

It's tough... you're competing with people who do not have LD's and got better grades than you, some of them did it while working full time and making long commutes, and/or possibly taking care of a terminally ill family member or raising children. I'm exaggerating here of course, but the point stands. What's unique about you? What can you write about yourself and your motivation for medicine that piques their interest where they finish reading your PS and think, "I have to meet this person." ??

 

[NonTraditional3]

In your PS, you are selling yourself.

It's tricky to write something compelling, and it is difficult to write about yourself. You received some advice above from two very helpful posters on SDN.

What I would suggest, in addition to their advice above, is that you bring up the LD in your interviews, which, if you can write a good PS and sell yourself to the reader, you should be able to obtain.

It's tough... you're competing with people who do not have LD's and got better grades than you, some of them did it while working full time and making long commutes, and/or possibly taking care of a terminally ill family member or raising children. I'm exaggerating here of course, but the point stands. What's unique about you? What can you write about yourself and your motivation for medicine that piques their interest where they finish reading your PS and think, "I have to meet this person." ??

I was also considering discussing my transition from health education (physical education) major to bio major....I feel like this isn't a "typical" progression of the so-called "cookie-cutter pre-med".....and my opinions of the delivery of health care focusing not just on the patient's ailment, but guiding a treatment plan with considerations for this patients role in the community.....whats that Mr. Norman? You run drills with the Brandywine HS Lady Bucks girls varsity Basketball team? Okay, so we're going to target your treatment and rehabilitation at getting you back to the courts and getting those girls the all-state championship this year. Things like this, people as part of a community, and the impediment disease can have on people fulfilling their chosen roles in their community, are a huge part of why I am interested in medicine - sure, I could satisfy my intellectual/scientific ambitions in the laboratory, but medicine allows me to combine that with community advancement, fulfilling the socioemotional aspects I seek from my career.

 

[MedPR]

I was also considering discussing my transition from health education (physical education) major to bio major....I feel like this isn't a "typical" progression of the so-called "cookie-cutter pre-med".....and my opinions of the delivery of health care focusing not just on the patient's ailment, but guiding a treatment plan with considerations for this patients role in the community.....whats that Mr. Norman? You run drills with the Brandywine HS Lady Bucks girls varsity Basketball team? Okay, so we're going to target your treatment and rehabilitation at getting you back to the courts and getting those girls the all-state championship this year. Things like this, people as part of a community, and the impediment disease can have on people fulfilling their chosen roles in their community, are a huge part of why I am interested in medicine - sure, I could satisfy my intellectual/scientific ambitions in the laboratory, but medicine allows me to combine that with community advancement, fulfilling the socioemotional aspects I seek from my career.

I'm sure a lot of premeds claim the same types of things in their PS. You're not going to stand out because of stuff like this. You'll stand out because of personal experiences and reflections on those experiences.

 

[DrMidlife]

Y'all are vastly, vastly overestimating the impact your PS's will have, and you're vastly, vastly underestimating the experiences of your competition.

 

[NonTraditional3]

I'm sure a lot of premeds claim the same types of things in their PS. You're not going to stand out because of stuff like this. You'll stand out because of personal experiences and reflections on those experiences.

What I mean to say is.....my perspectives on medicine....and the delivery of health care....are the result of my experiences at home with death and disease as well as my experiences with patients as a volunteer and from shadowing. So I am confused by your comment, because my previous post is my reflection of personal experiences.....

 

[MedPR]

What I mean to say is.....my perspectives on medicine....and the delivery of health care....are the result of my experiences at home with death and disease as well as my experiences with patients as a volunteer and from shadowing. So I am confused by your comment, because my previous post is my reflection of personal experiences.....

Lots of people write about those exact same things. I'm saying that it's not what you talk about, or what has happened to you, but how you present them and show, rather than tell, how your experiences have affected your decision to become a physician.

 

[NonTraditional3]

Lots of people write about those exact same things. I'm saying that it's not what you talk about, or what has happened to you, but how you present them and show, rather than tell, how your experiences have affected your decision to become a physician.

Got it. So it is ok to write about these things, just make damn sure that I don't flippantly go about doing so, and make sure that I do market the hell out the experiences that matter - yes?

 

[theseeker4]

Got it. So it is ok to write about these things, just make damn sure that I don't flippantly go about doing so, and make sure that I do market the hell out the experiences that matter - yes?

Basically, write about what led you to medicine, and don't worry about having something that is "unique." It really is that simple. Why do you want to be a doctor, and what led you to this decision? Go. Be honest, focus on the positive, make sure you don't offer excuses or whine about things being difficult, and don't lose sight of the purpose of the essay, which is, why do you want to be a doctor.

 

[QofQuimica]

Basically, write about what led you to medicine, and don't worry about having something that is "unique." It really is that simple. Why do you want to be a doctor, and what led you to this decision? Go. Be honest, focus on the positive, make sure you don't offer excuses or whine about things being difficult, and don't lose sight of the purpose of the essay, which is, why do you want to be a doctor.

Correct. I oughta sticky this post. 👍

 

[startoverat40]

I think if you have a glaring weakness in your background, you need to address it somehow, cause ignoring it will make it stand out just as much as if you dwell on it. a big hole draws as much attention as a nail sticking out.

you have to address it very carefully, and put a positive spin on it. explain what you learned from having to deal with that issue, and how it made you a better person. don't use it as an excuse. don't spend too much space in your PS on it. just briefly address it and move on.

everybody experiences adversity. the key is to show that you are able to deal with difficulties and move on and accomplish your goals inspite of the hardships. you definitely don't want to come across as saying "i didn't accomplish xyz because i had this difficulty so woe is me, please feel pity for me and let me into med school".

and that should actually be your attitude in life also. if you are looking for others to pitty you, it means you are also still stuck and shackled by the issue. free yourself from it, and show others also that you have moved on. if you can't honestly feel that way with yourself, you will come across in your PS or interviews as not being ready to deal with the hardships of medicine. And if so, then you probably aren't ready, and you need to deal with this first until you have a change of attitude.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

people shouldn't take my opinions as the gospel. Even though they are. 😉)

That's all I'm saying... 😉

 

[akinetopsia]

Y'all are vastly, vastly overestimating the impact your PS's will have, and you're vastly, vastly underestimating the experiences of your competition.

I don't think I'm doing either, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I won't take it personally.

Essentially there's nothing original under the sun, is what I'm trying to say. Whatever you write, thematically, the adcoms and PS readers have seen it before. Just write genuinely about your own experiences and your motivation for pursuing medicine.

The biggest things that have an impact on your application are your GPAs and MCAT. That's the initial hurdle. The PS can have an impact as far as if you'll get an interview or not if you're in the "mushy middle" of well-qualified candidates with good but not stellar ECs.

 

[MedPR]

I don't think I'm doing either, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I won't take it personally.

Essentially there's nothing original under the sun, is what I'm trying to say. Whatever you write, thematically, the adcoms and PS readers have seen it before. Just write genuinely about your own experiences and your motivation for pursuing medicine.

The biggest things that have an impact on your application are your GPAs and MCAT. That's the initial hurdle. The PS can have an impact as far as if you'll get an interview or not if you're in the "mushy middle" of well-qualified candidates with good but not stellar ECs.

+1 for not typing "...GPAs and MCATs..."

 

[NonTraditional3]

I think I'm just going to touch on my academic difficulties briefly, whereby my professors noticed I was struggling as a premed and encouraged me to instead pursue a career in research- as this would allow me to employ my understanding of physiology in a practical way to solve problems while still making a difference in peoples lives by contributing my efforts in the basic sciences to advance the field of medicine (novel therapies, gene targets, etc.)....enter a discussion of what I have done post college in research, the lessons I have learned, how I am applying them to other areas of my life outside the lab, how they apply to patient care and why this has driven me directly back to pursuing a career medicine, and what evidence exists that has left me certain that I have what it takes to succeed in a medical program...only mention the word "learning disorder" once, and is in a sentence prefacing how I am applying lessons learned outside the classroom to strengthen myself in the classroom.

Thanks again everyone for their insight - I think I can address the LD issue without dwelling on it or making myself appear to be some victim seeking pity, and without devoting even as much as one paragraph central to why this was a problem - just going to say "there was an academic problem - my professors noticed and intervened....sent me in a different career direction....but I was not satisfied with the road I was headed down....but having succesfully rectified these issues that surfaced earlier in my academic career, I am back on the path towards becoming a physician" something to that effect....

 

[MedPR]

I think I'm just going to touch on my academic difficulties briefly, whereby my professors noticed I was struggling as a premed and encouraged me to instead pursue a career in research- as this would allow me to employ my understanding of physiology in a practical way to solve problems while still making a difference in peoples lives by contributing my efforts in the basic sciences to advance the field of medicine (novel therapies, gene targets, etc.)....enter a discussion of what I have done post college in research, the lessons I have learned, how I am applying them to other areas of my life outside the lab, how they apply to patient care and why this has driven me directly back to pursuing a career medicine, and what evidence exists that has left me certain that I have what it takes to succeed in a medical program...only mention the word "learning disorder" once, and is in a sentence prefacing how I am applying lessons learned outside the classroom to strengthen myself in the classroom.

Thanks again everyone for their insight - I think I can address the LD issue without dwelling on it or making myself appear to be some victim seeking pity, and without devoting even as much as one paragraph central to why this was a problem - just going to say "there was an academic problem - my professors noticed and intervened....sent me in a different career direction....but I was not satisfied with the road I was headed down....but having succesfully rectified these issues that surfaced earlier in my academic career, I am back on the path towards becoming a physician" something to that effect....

Did you take the MCAT under normal conditions?

 

[NonTraditional3]

Did you take the MCAT under normal conditions?

Could you elaborate?

 

[MedPR]

Could you elaborate?

I was thinking that if you took the MCAT with special accommodations (because of your LD) you might not need to address it at all.

 

[NonTraditional3]

I was thinking that if you took the MCAT with special accommodations (because of your LD) you might not need to address it at all.

Ah. Well, 2 reasons why I am not doing that.

1. Cannot afford the cost of the evaluation necessary for accommodations on professional-degree program entry exams (there is some other collective term for this, but it escapes me a the moment.) My psychiatrist said if he was still qualified to perform the assessment, then he could just submit some evaluation based on my historical records, but he no longer holds the certification/license for this evaluation....this is why I have been studying for the MCAT since I registered in february - I won't have the accommodations, so I need to prepare doubly, triply even, for this exam.

2. I had spoken with dean of admissions at (omitting for purposes of anonymity) school of medicine, and they said that it can be a double edged sword; sure, I would have a tremendous amount of time to complete the exam, likely yielding a higher score, but at the same time, a designation of your accommodations is made on the score reports sent to the schools, and if they see something like 41**, instead of just 41, then I'm not exactly viewed as having met a standard above my competition - they said that while medical schools are discouraged from making this assertion, it happens...a lot.


So, just biting the bullet with this one and going to see how it goes.