Dismissed after 4+ years. What to do about debt?

[Apollo8]

I was recently dismissed (technically I withdrew but dismissal was eminent) from medical school. I had academic difficulty at nearly every step of the curriculum and when it was all said and done, I had successfully completed only 2.17 years of medical school while actually being enrolled for (and paying out-of-state tuition for) 4.5 years. I am disappointed that my goal to become a physician will not be realized but I know that I will be successful at something else. The problem is how I will pay back loans greater than most med school graduates without having the MD and the earning potential that comes with it. Should I be thinking about bankruptcy? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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[TexasPhysician]

I'm pretty sure bankruptcy does not eliminate student loans. Student loans are special in that they stay with you forever - unless you become permanently disabled. Bankruptcy would cure non-student loans.

I would start looking for well paying jobs or become a PA or other graduate level degree to increase your learning potential.

You have a difficult road ahead. Good luck.

 

[Jnorman1218]

I was recently dismissed (technically I withdrew but dismissal was eminent) from medical school. I had academic difficulty at nearly every step of the curriculum and when it was all said and done, I had successfully completed only 2.17 years of medical school while actually being enrolled for (and paying out-of-state tuition for) 4.5 years. I am disappointed that my goal to become a physician will not be realized but I know that I will be successful at something else. The problem is how I will pay back loans greater than most med school graduates without having the MD and the earning potential that comes with it. Should I be thinking about bankruptcy? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Could be wrong, but I don't think you can declare bankruptcy for federal loans.

 

[GAgrl]

I dont have a good answer for you but I do know that you can not discharge educational loans with bankruptcy so this is not an option for you.

 

[DrBowtie]

Your best option would be IBR/PSLF. What is your undergrad degree in? I'd try to find a qualifying job and work that 10 years. Perhaps teaching? Public Health?

 

[Dotsero]

As others have said student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy (unless you meet some very stringent hardship criteria). Another option would be IBR and the public service loan forgiveness program. You work for a federal/public/non-profit organization (i.e. military, VA, indian reservation, public school etc...) make IBR payments for 10 years (which would be a percentage of your income) and the loans will be forgiven.

Check out http://www.finaid.org/calculators/ for more details.

 

[ACE Rx]

I was recently dismissed (technically I withdrew but dismissal was eminent) from medical school. I had academic difficulty at nearly every step of the curriculum and when it was all said and done, I had successfully completed only 2.17 years of medical school while actually being enrolled for (and paying out-of-state tuition for) 4.5 years. I am disappointed that my goal to become a physician will not be realized but I know that I will be successful at something else. The problem is how I will pay back loans greater than most med school graduates without having the MD and the earning potential that comes with it. Should I be thinking about bankruptcy? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

There's really no way to discharge student loans since bankruptcy does not include student loans. Only way you can get it discharged is if it causes undue hardship but I have yet to see anyone get it discharged via this route unless they are either permanently disabled or passed away. Good luck!

 

[SpecterGT260]

Even though it may be a few steps backwards before you gain.... you could think about thinks like pharm school or podiatry school. Depending on your prior level of academic difficulty you may see greater success. And these routes can pay pretty well. ~100k pharm and ~150k DPM. All in all it means you wouldn't see the comfortable lifestyle you wanted for a very long time.... but you would be able to dig yourself out eventually (or at least have a better shot than pursuing your bachelors)

 

[Apollo8]

Thank you for the information and for your honesty. I have begun to do some reading and from what I see thus far it seems that you are unfortunately correct about bankruptcy not canceling out student loans. My fiancée has matched into a radiology residency (she is doing her transitional year now) but asking my wife to spend the rest of her life paying off my loans in addition to hers doesn’t exactly set up a healthy relationship dynamic. I am now thinking that I should beg my med school for just one more chance. I am not optimistic about this plan as I have already submitted a written request for withdrawal but we will see.

 

[Apollo8]

My academic advisor mentioned that I may be able to transfer/apply as an advanced standing student to a different medical school, though it would probably have to be outside the U.S. Does anyone know if doing year 3 and 4 at a Caribbean school would be a possibility. I have passed step 1, although it took two attempts. Would I be able to get more financial aid for this? In my limited understanding, students at Caribbean schools usually return to the mainland for the clinical years anyway, right? How would that work for me?

 

[DeadCactus]

If you haven't resolved your academic issues, I can't see the wisdom in borrowing even more student loans for medical school.

 

[Shnurek]

Transfer your credits to some cheapass foreign medical school.

 

[CaptainSSO]

Why would going to the Caribbean be any different? You're going to be learning the same material you apparently had a lot of trouble with in the first place, and on top of that, you'll have the added pressure of wanting to perform even better in the Carib than you did in the US school in order to have a chance of matching somewhere.

 

[Soccer171983]

Guad would prob work out for you. Ran into a few peeps in your situation go there and come back.

 

[thepoopologist]

You are in a tough situation, but I don't think doubling down and heading to the Caribbean is the way to go until you've figured out what's going on, otherwise you're asking for even more debt that you can't pay off. Maybe that won't be an issue and the motivation to stay with your fiancee will be enough to help you power through if you do end up going. Maybe it will be an issue and if you think it will be then doing a 2-4 year degree in another health profession is the way to go because that debt is going to destroy your life if you don't make a strong move in one direction or another.

I think valuemd and SDNs Caribbean forum are worth checking out if you're interested in continuing. From my limited understanding you can get federal loans if you're in a place like St George and you haven't reached your borrowing limit, but if not possible then you'd be taking out private loans. Point is it's more loans and there's simply no space for any more mistakes if you go this route.

If continuing medical school isn't in the picture, then I think another health profession is the only other way of getting a steady, decent paying gig to get you out of your financial hole. I'd look into building on a subject you happened to be strong in in medical school i.e. pharmacology->pharmacist.

 

[thepoopologist]

Why would going to the Caribbean be any different? You're going to be learning the same material you apparently had a lot of trouble with in the first place, and on top of that, you'll have the added pressure of wanting to perform even better in the Carib than you did in the US school in order to have a chance of matching somewhere.

Any ideas on how to address his 4 years worth of medical school debt? I think you're right but it's also the lowest barrier of entry at this point. And he's engaged. It's going to be a tough choice for him.

 

[Shnurek]

Why would going to the Caribbean be any different? You're going to be learning the same material you apparently had a lot of trouble with in the first place, and on top of that, you'll have the added pressure of wanting to perform even better in the Carib than you did in the US school in order to have a chance of matching somewhere.

The OP clearly passed Step 1 so they are not incompetent. Some med schools are easier than others and also much cheaper. Most med schools you can go to internationally and then your degree just gets converted when you come back here to an M.D.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

Any ideas on how to address his 4 years worth of medical school debt? I think you're right but it's also the lowest barrier of entry at this point. And he's engaged. It's going to be a tough choice for him.

A couple thoughts:

1) If you're really determined, try for one more shot at your current med school. As others have said, figure out what's tripping you up before you go for another attempt. I would definitely not try Carib, but that's just me. Think about PA school potentially.

2) If in the end it doesn't work out, IBR. I cannot emphasize this enough. IBR! Using this calculator, things look pretty good. If you earn about $50K in a public sector job/non-profit, you'd only be paying around $300/month on your loans (no matter how big they are). File you taxes separately from your wife (otherwise your gross income goes way up). Pay this amount for 10 years, and it's relieved.

Your loans are not an end-all, be-all. They shouldn't really dictate how you live the rest of your life.

 

[primadonna22274]

No chance for PA school if you've failed med school. Sorry but I think it's unfair to hold this carrot out to the OP.

 

[myhandsarecold]

Try online nurse practitioner courses. There's a bunch now an NP salaries r okay.

 

[pkwraith]

I would recommend the IBR route (albiet complicated a little by your pending marriage) and finding a different profession.

I acknowledge the fallacy of sunk cost, but at your current amount of debt and success, trying to move into a different expensive vocational track of similar academic requirements (dentistry, pharmacy, etc) is just not a good idea.

 

[SpecterGT260]

From comparisons between various students I know in terms of time required studying, complexity and volume of material.... If he has floated this far he's got a decent chance of success in those. Not a given, and it depends on what specifically tripped him up. If it is volume and speed of material presentation pharm may work out

 

[valkener]

There was a very similar thread here with a student transfering to a Carribean Medschool who was able to secure a residency later. Use the search function to find it. If you transfer though, keep in mind you are taking up even more loans and you might have to explain your dismissal at residency interviews - all that is going to depend on you being able to succeed academically before that, of course.

 

[TexasPhysician]

No chance for PA school if you've failed med school. Sorry but I think it's unfair to hold this carrot out to the OP.

Untrue. I've seen people do it.

 

[Law2Doc]

My academic advisor mentioned that I may be able to transfer/apply as an advanced standing student to a different medical school, though it would probably have to be outside the U.S. Does anyone know if doing year 3 and 4 at a Caribbean school would be a possibility. I have passed step 1, although it took two attempts. Would I be able to get more financial aid for this? In my limited understanding, students at Caribbean schools usually return to the mainland for the clinical years anyway, right? How would that work for me?

I'm sure there are some offshore places that will take your money, but you may end up with more than two years left in their program both between internal hurdles you have yet to meet at their school, and the fact that rotations are space limited and not hosted by the school, so you may end up burning a year before you can even find space in a given rotation you need to graduate. And you probably will end up doing a lot if traveling -- some of these offshore folks have to go to hospitals in 5 different states just to get all their core requirements done. So you will rack up a lot more debt, it will take probably 3 more years, and you will be applying as a non-US grad. With your red flags, if you are lucky this equates to a noncompetitive specialty in a geographically undesirable location, for a low end doctors salary. You probably have a shot at servicing your 7+ years of tuition debt, but not much beyond this.

 

[Ilovewater]

No chance for PA school if you've failed med school. Sorry but I think it's unfair to hold this carrot out to the OP.

That's not true. My anatomy lab partner left after the first semester of medical school. She just got accepted to 2 or 3 PA schools.

 

[searun]

That's not true. My anatomy lab partner left after the first semester of medical school. She just got accepted to 2 or 3 PA schools.

Well, your lab partner did not fail med school after one semester. She chose to leave and was not booted out. Different situation from the OP.

 

[Poisson]

I was recently dismissed (technically I withdrew but dismissal was eminent) from medical school. I had academic difficulty at nearly every step of the curriculum and when it was all said and done, I had successfully completed only 2.17 years of medical school while actually being enrolled for (and paying out-of-state tuition for) 4.5 years. I am disappointed that my goal to become a physician will not be realized but I know that I will be successful at something else. The problem is how I will pay back loans greater than most med school graduates without having the MD and the earning potential that comes with it. Should I be thinking about bankruptcy? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

You need to realize that "yes you can" be a physician. I think you should not give up this dream and do everything in your power to transfer. Chances are, albeit an osteopathic school (maybe small allopathic school that has a decent amount of transfers; or school that does not advertise transfer possibilities) would have compassion for your situation after you show them some compelling evidence. Not every school is the same, and I'm sure this is some little tick in a few classes that is preventing you from continuing. Did some people cheat in classes that were hard? Yeah some probably had an advantage with old exams and barely passed a few classes. Should they be a doctor over you? A person who has successfully passed 2.17 years of a United States medical degree with flying colors? Yeah you can drop this dream of being a doctor, but once you get there, that being medical school, IMO there is no going back from this dream. You need to try every little possible thing you can do to work this in your favor and get back in the game. If not, I would be very very very surprised if you have no regrets. I was a 2.0 high school student, barely got into college, did bad in college, transferred schools and graduated with latin honors. Subjects that I excelled in in college were my worst subjects in high school. I know these are two completely different situations, but don't let people brainwash you into thinking you are not capable of not only being a physician, but a great physician. I'm sure some school in the Caribbean, which I would not recommend, would bring you in 100 percent. If you made good contacts here and people like you, there could be an outside chance to match into residency, that coupled with strong performance in the curriculum and examinations. I recommend trying to apply to DO. I realize this really is a serious position you are in, you need to evaluate your situation wholeheartedly to make sure you are going down the right path. Freezing up and applying to PA school or trying to jump into a high paid career you are not completely into may not be a solution to the problem.

 

[Raryn]

You need to realize that "yes you can" be a physician. I would not give up this dream and do everything in your power to transfer. Chances are, albeit an osteopathic school would have compassion for your situation after you show them some evidence of something. Not every school is the same, and I'm sure this is some little tick in a few classes that is preventing you from graduating. Did some people cheat in classes that were hard? Yeah some probably had an advantage and barely passed a few classes. Should they be a doctor over you? a person who has successfully passed 2.17 years of a united states medical degree with flying colors? Yeah you can drop out, but once you get there, IMO there is no going back. You need to try every little possible thing you can do to work this in your favor and get back in the game. If not, I would be very very very surprised if you have no regrets. I was a 2.0 high school student, barely got into college, did bad in college, transferred schools and graduated with latin honors. Subjects that I excelled in in college were my worst subjects in college. I know these are two completely different situations, but don't let people brainwash you into thinking you are not capable of not only being a physician, but being a great physician. I'm sure some school in the Caribbean, which I do not recommend, would take you 100 percent. If you made good contacts here and people like you, there could be an outside chance to match into residency. I however recommend DO, or applying transfer to MD schools. Don't listen to hype, statistics, and suppressive personalities, there is a reason those people don't have a long legacy of successful people in their family.

at this post.

OP, I am 100% certain no DO school will possibly take you as a transfer student. Not without having had OMM the first two years, and not with having failed out of MD school. I'm also 99% sure that you wouldn't get into any American MD or DO school as a transfer or as a new applicant given your record. Transfering is nigh-on impossible for stellar medical students without any red flags, much less someone who took 4 years to complete 2 years of medical school (and not "with flying colors" but barely).

You have two options if you want to be a doctor, and both are very very slim chances: You can either beg and plead your school to give you one last chance or you can try in the Caribbean. Caribbean schools almost never offer transfers simply because M1/M2s are cash cows for them and M3/M4s are expensive, so why on earth would they lose the profits they would get out of making you repeat the first two years? It's not 100% unheard of though. Chances are >50% that even if you went to a Caribbean school (either as a transfer or from the beginning), you would not match at an American residency program. Candidates without histories of failing out of US MD schools who attend Caribbean schools have a match rate of about 50%, and that's after a good 30+% were weeded out before even getting to M4 year.

Your only realistic option if you can't get your current school to take you back is to find another career. Then, with whatever income you have, pay back IBR for the next 20 (or 10 if you work for a non-profit) years until your debt is forgiven. I'm not sure how being married affects IBR, but you should definitely find out *before* you actually sign the marriage license, because it might save you (and your fiance/wife) a large amount of $ to hold off on the legal marriage and just pay back your loans with whatever nominal salary you find. I'd find a good accountant to run those numbers if you're at all not sure.

 

[Ilovewater]

Well, your lab partner did not fail med school after one semester. She chose to leave and was not booted out. Different situation from the OP.

Well, she left because she failed the first block and wasn't doing too well in the 2nd block. She decided to she didn't want to remediate during the summer (not sure why) and just left. So, I guess she wasn't really booted.

 

[Igor4sugry]

I was recently dismissed (technically I withdrew but dismissal was eminent) from medical school. I had academic difficulty at nearly every step of the curriculum and when it was all said and done, I had successfully completed only 2.17 years of medical school while actually being enrolled for (and paying out-of-state tuition for) 4.5 years. I am disappointed that my goal to become a physician will not be realized but I know that I will be successful at something else. The problem is how I will pay back loans greater than most med school graduates without having the MD and the earning potential that comes with it. Should I be thinking about bankruptcy? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

File taxes as "single". Sign up for IBR. Get any job you enjoy doing no matter how little pay and start enjoying your life. There is no point in chasing high-earning jobs at this point. Your salary will be reduced no matter what by your dept.

Do a simple marriage in a courthouse (~$100), get on her health insurance.

Keep filing your taxes as "single" until your loans are forgiven in 25years under IBR rules.

 

[Raryn]

File taxes as "single". Sign up for IBR. Get any job you enjoy doing no matter how little pay and start enjoying your life. There is no point in chasing high-earning jobs at this point. Your salary will be reduced no matter what by your dept.

Do a simple marriage in a courthouse (~$100), get on her health insurance.

Keep filing your taxes as "single" until your loans are forgiven in 25years under IBR rules.

20 years now. Rule was changed last year.

 

[primadonna22274]

Agree that DO school is also not an option, and quite frankly the OP cannot afford it (or for that matter PA school even if he could find one willing to overlook the trail of red flags in his app). I'm a DO student now and have been faculty at 2 very different PA programs...there is no way that either program would take a chance on this student when there are >100 other highly qualified applicants without blemished academic records. I stand by my argument.

 

[DrBowtie]

20 years now. Rule was changed last year.

10 years with a public service job. I'd commit to working in the public sector for10 years and then evaluate a new career reboot. Really the only reasonable way to payoff/discharge 4+ years of OOS expenses.

 

[Orthodoc40]

WTF is IBR, please??!!

 

[Orthodoc40]

Several PA schools tell you that "they do the exact same curriculum as med school but in 2 years not 4, so it's more intense, so if you couldn't handle it at med school speed, you can't handle it at ours".
Helllooooooo? There is no human way possible to fit the med school curriculum into 2 years. You do not do THE SAME curriculum, sorry.

 

[Orthodoc40]

The fact that the OP has passed Step 1 is BIG in their favor. Much easier to find places willing to "transfer" you into their program once they realize your preclinical work is complete and the big test is taken care of.

 

[Whiskeypunch]

.

 

[MiracleforMD]

WTF is IBR, please??!!

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=IBR

 

[HondoCrouch]

Um, wife's a radiologist? You got it made man you just dont realize. Sign up for IBR, be a stay at home dad and whatever you do, never ever piss off your fiance.

Seriously, it's not like both of you need to work with what she will be making.

And once you're married, your debt is her problem whether you like it or not. I'd say it's downright incredible she is still with you given the circumstances, so you have something there I'd focus all your efforts on keeping her around.

 

[K31]

The fact that the OP has passed Step 1 is BIG in their favor. Much easier to find places willing to "transfer" you into their program once they realize your preclinical work is complete and the big test is taken care of.

I don't know; something has to be seriously wrong to be dismissed after passing Step 1. Most attrition is preclinical; I've never seen someone be dismissed in the clinical years in the absence of major professionalism issues.

 

[SteinUmStein]

Um, wife's a radiologist? You got it made man you just dont realize. Sign up for IBR, be a stay at home dad and whatever you do, never ever piss off your fiance.

Seriously, it's not like both of you need to work with what she will be making.

And once you're married, your debt is her problem whether you like it or not. I'd say it's downright incredible she is still with you given the circumstances, so you have something there I'd focus all your efforts on keeping her around.

You're absolutely right, he just needs to make sure to file taxes separately because if he files jointly, that IBR payment won't be so friendly. If he files jointly he may not even qualify for IBR depending on how much his wife makes.

Be very, very useful to your fiancee around the house, take care of business, pay the bills on time for her, do the grocery shopping, the dishes, learn to cook well, in general just be a swell, stand-up guy and you'll be fine. If you have kids you can be a stay at home dad, actually sounds pretty great to me.

Quick edit: One of my professors who practices general internal medicine has a husband who stays at home with their 2 kids and they're doing great. Point being, if they can thrive with 2 kids on one primary care income, you'll be fantastic on 1 rads income.

 

[thepoopologist]

Um, wife's a radiologist? You got it made man you just dont realize. Sign up for IBR, be a stay at home dad and whatever you do, never ever piss off your fiance.

Seriously, it's not like both of you need to work with what she will be making.

And once you're married, your debt is her problem whether you like it or not. I'd say it's downright incredible she is still with you given the circumstances, so you have something there I'd focus all your efforts on keeping her around.

Something to be said about that. OP is engaged to a keeper.

 

[Impromptu]

Federal student loans can be discharged with disability. Whenever this question is brought up I like to ask how attached you are to your thumbs? Missing 1 of them puts you at 50% disability.

 

[Phyozo]

Federal student loans can be discharged with disability. Whenever this question is brought up I like to ask how attached you are to your thumbs? Missing 1 of them puts you at 50% disability.

Thumbs are a big deal. How much can I get for my big toe?

 

[Shnurek]

Or just claim that you cannot see out of one eye. People have milked the system so many times like that. One time a dental hygienist received an eye injury at the Dental office she worked at so she came with some lawyers to my school and one of our senior optometrists ran a visually evoked potential test (http://www.fvcoptometry.com/FVCmain/services/retina%20imaging.htm#VISUAL EVOKED POTENTIAL) on her. At first he got a false negative reading because she was malingering using her accommodative system voluntarily (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMHKJF31lBg) without a close object as a stimulus. Then he administered some eye drops and froze up her lens so she couldn't accommodate. He got a positive result. The lawyers wanted the first test result but he wouldn't give it to them. In the end she ended up winning a few million because the lawyers convinced the jury that she indeed could not see out of that eye. Also because the OD couldn't contribute anything to the court as this would have been a HIPAA violation. See what bureaucracy and over-legislation does? Creates a playground for the lawyers.

 

[link2swim06]

Um, wife's a radiologist? You got it made man you just dont realize. Sign up for IBR, be a stay at home dad and whatever you do, never ever piss off your fiance.

Seriously, it's not like both of you need to work with what she will be making.

And once you're married, your debt is her problem whether you like it or not. I'd say it's downright incredible she is still with you given the circumstances, so you have something there I'd focus all your efforts on keeping her around.

He said she is still in transitional year meaning:

4 more years of rads residency
1-2 years of fellowship

meaning he still has to deal with the debt for ~6 years

 

[Raryn]

He said she is still in transitional year meaning:

4 more years of rads residency
1-2 years of fellowship

meaning he still has to deal with the debt for ~6 years

That's the beauty of IBR. He has to deal with the debt, but his payments are capped at being very low and managable. He could work at McDonalds and live on it, even with his debt. (Though as we mentioned above, public service would be best)

 

[DrBowtie]

He said she is still in transitional year meaning:

4 more years of rads residency
1-2 years of fellowship

meaning he still has to deal with the debt for ~6 years

Exactly. He can IBR for 10 years without having to go back to school to try to get some high paying job. Resident salary + his public service salary of 30-40k, will still be doing ok for the 6 years, then they will be living comfortable off her salary and he can then decide what to do after the debt is forgiven.

 

[The Doctor]

OP, if you are still reading this thread, I just felt moved to tell you that things will be all right in the long run. I can't say for certain that you can make it back into another medical school, and I don't know how long it will take for you to pay off your loans. I'm not sure what effect the loans will have on where you live or your relationship, but I do believe that you will have good days ahead and that you will be able to find a meaningful career even if it is different than you expected. I took an extra year in medical school due to my own difficulties with Step 1, and even though I was dismayed with my first real academic failure at the time, I made very good friends in the interim and enjoyed following other pursuits. I can only imagine going through the suffering of taking step 1 multiple times, being dimissed, and facing loan costs - I'm sure I would not handle this well, and if you ever feel the need to talk with someone about the stress I think that is very reasonable to do so. Maybe while your fiance finishes her residency you can move to where she is at and take a job in the private sector. You can help support her during her time in residency and maybe start your own business. There are many men who have reinvented themselves for the better in a wholly new direction and excelled. You may find that throwing yourself and your energies into actual, real non-school work and creating something to be much more rewarding than pursuing more academics. I wish you luck in picking yourself back up and starting a new chapter.