Dismissed for filing complaint?

[Late Bloomer]

do you know of anyone at a DO school who has been dismissed for contacting AOA or COCA to complain about poor rotations or not having core rotations available at their assigned rotation site? Or has your school threatened to kick out anyone who complains to a governing body? If you don't feel "safe" discussing openly, send me a PM.

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[Siggy]

Dismissed explicitly for filing a complaint? Lulz, no. The amount of bad press that would generate would be terrible.

Of course I'm sure that most schools can find plenty of "professionalism" reasons to kick just about anyone out.

Also... I thought it was well known that those complaints were anonymous.

 

[Late Bloomer]

I don't know if they're anonymous to the school or not. In order to submit a complaint to COCA you have to sign your name to the letter. And our administration just threatened to kick out anyone who speaks negatively to COCA.

 

[235009]

Keep your head down. Get through it. If you still care after you graduate then have at it. I'm sorry you weren't more diligent in choosing schools and are now surprised that clinical education at your school is sub-par

 

[hallowmann]

I don't know if they're anonymous to the school or not. In order to submit a complaint to COCA you have to sign your name to the letter. And our administration just threatened to kick out anyone who speaks negatively to COCA.

Its ridiculous that any school would explicitly say this. I wouldn't do anything quite yet though. I've heard of schools (MD and DO) retaliating when students complain about them to COCA/LCME and I've heard the same when it comes to residencies and the AOA/ACGME.

Collect all the hard evidence you can, then after you have your degree, you can at least feel a bit safer about filing a complaint, if you still feel compelled to do so at that point.

 

[deleted564680]

OP must go to LECOM. It's pretty much an authoritarian state. 🙂
There's no way a school can dismiss you for filing a complaint. A lawyer would have a field day with that.

 

[Late Bloomer]

It's not LECOM but I won't say openly what school (unless u wanna message me).

 

[deleted564680]

Honestly, I don't care what school it is. I just hope you file a complaint. There are WAY too many DO schools out there that are not giving their students full rotation sites among other "necessities" of medical school.
We need our own version of the Flexner report or hand over accreditation to the LCME so we can close down these DO schools that make us all look bad.
There's a reason why MD program directors are hesitant with DO students, especially with schools they aren't familiar with.

 

[Late Bloomer]

Keep your head down. Get through it. If you still care after you graduate then have at it. I'm sorry you weren't more diligent in choosing schools and are now surprised that clinical education at your school is sub-par

I'm a diligent person. So I wouldn't assume my situation is the result of my poor judgement. But my school was all smoke & mirrors before matriculation and administration/leaders/clinical sites changed for the worse after already starting school. Do I wish I'd chosen another school? Absolutely! But I made my choice based on skewed and unreliable information. But I do agree it's probably the safer choice to wait until I've graduated to stir the pot.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't know if they're anonymous to the school or not. In order to submit a complaint to COCA you have to sign your name to the letter. And our administration just threatened to kick out anyone who speaks negatively to COCA.

That's actually an issue in and of itself. If you have documented proof of this, that could be an issue that would get you serious legal reparations were they to kick you out. Regardless, I'd keep my head down until graduation, as was suggested by MT. Keep proof of everything- screenshot emails and save them to a Google drive, etc.

 

[costales]

Do not draw negative attention to yourself until you have a certificate of completion from a residency program. But if you feel the urge:

http://com.msu.edu/Students/Registrar/COCA Procedure for Student Complaints.pdf

Any student enrolled in the Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine (MSUCOM) may file a complaint regarding the College’s adherence to accreditation standards and procedures published by the American Osteopathic Association (AOA) Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA)... To file a complaint, the student must submit a written, signed and dated statement to the Associate Dean/Student Services. The statement must contain the following information:
• the specific standard/procedure(s) of the above document that has allegedly been violated;
• the subject matter of the violation.
Anonymous complaints will not be accepted.
After receipt of a complaint, the Associate Dean/Student Services shall meet with the complainant to discuss the written statement and resolution sought. The Associate Dean/Student Services will confer with other members of the College, as necessary, to come to a resolution. The Associate Dean/Student Services will make every effort to process and adjudicate the complaint in a timely manner, although processing time may vary depending on the subject matter and complexity of the complaint. Resolution of the complaint shall be made in writing/electronically to the complainant.
A student who is not satisfied with the adjudication and resolution of the complaint regarding AOA COCA “Accreditation of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine: COM Accreditation Standards and Procedures,” may appeal to the Dean of the College in writing within five days of being notified of the resolution of the complaint. The decision of the Dean on appeal will be final. No action shall be taken by the College against a student on account of the fact that he or she filed a complaint.
Students may also lodge complaints against MSUCOM with the AOA Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation, should they so desire to do so, at the following address:
Secretary, COCA
Alissa Craft, DO, MBA
Vice President, Accreditation
American Osteopathic Association
142 E. Ontario St.
Chicago, IL 60611
Phone: 312-202-8097
Email: [email protected]​

 

[AZCOM2018]

Since people are using this thread to discuss the repercussions of pointing out flaws in their school.... i was wondering: What is the safety of doing it on SDN with a new account?

There are a number of policies and decisions made at my school that negatively impact the students. Many students are upset by this (we've even had 80%+ of our class sign petitions askign for things to be changed.. which the administration ignores), but many students say that they're too afraid to mention anything. Is creating a discussion (and making these issues public) a safe thing to do on SDN? Would my school somehow be able to get my IP address/MAC address from SDN for doing so? Could posting here come back to negatively impact me?

I personally think our education could be improved through constructive critique, but too many people (including myself) fear for the repercussions.

 

[Siggy]

Do not draw negative attention to yourself until you have a certificate of completion from a residency program. But if you feel the urge:

http://com.msu.edu/Students/Registrar/COCA Procedure for Student Complaints.pdf

Any student enrolled in the Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine (MSUCOM) may file a complaint regarding the College’s adherence to accreditation standards and procedures published by the American Osteopathic Association (AOA) Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA)... To file a complaint, the student must submit a written, signed and dated statement to the Associate Dean/Student Services. The statement must contain the following information:
• the specific standard/procedure(s) of the above document that has allegedly been violated;
• the subject matter of the violation.
Anonymous complaints will not be accepted.
After receipt of a complaint, the Associate Dean/Student Services shall meet with the complainant to discuss the written statement and resolution sought. The Associate Dean/Student Services will confer with other members of the College, as necessary, to come to a resolution. The Associate Dean/Student Services will make every effort to process and adjudicate the complaint in a timely manner, although processing time may vary depending on the subject matter and complexity of the complaint. Resolution of the complaint shall be made in writing/electronically to the complainant.
A student who is not satisfied with the adjudication and resolution of the complaint regarding AOA COCA “Accreditation of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine: COM Accreditation Standards and Procedures,” may appeal to the Dean of the College in writing within five days of being notified of the resolution of the complaint. The decision of the Dean on appeal will be final. No action shall be taken by the College against a student on account of the fact that he or she filed a complaint.
Students may also lodge complaints against MSUCOM with the AOA Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation, should they so desire to do so, at the following address:
Secretary, COCA
Alissa Craft, DO, MBA
Vice President, Accreditation
American Osteopathic Association
142 E. Ontario St.
Chicago, IL 60611
Phone: 312-202-8097
Email: [email protected]​

That's nice... but you were late one time to a mandatory meeting. That's unprofessional. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh, it was after you filed the complaint? Sorry, coincidence.

 

[HotLunch96]

I don't know if they're anonymous to the school or not. In order to submit a complaint to COCA you have to sign your name to the letter. And our administration just threatened to kick out anyone who speaks negatively to COCA.

that has lawsuit written all over it

 

[GUH]

Since people are using this thread to discuss the repercussions of pointing out flaws in their school.... i was wondering: What is the safety of doing it on SDN with a new account?

There are a number of policies and decisions made at my school that negatively impact the students. Many students are upset by this (we've even had 80%+ of our class sign petitions askign for things to be changed.. which the administration ignores), but many students say that they're too afraid to mention anything. Is creating a discussion (and making these issues public) a safe thing to do on SDN? Would my school somehow be able to get my IP address/MAC address from SDN for doing so? Could posting here come back to negatively impact me?

I personally think our education could be improved through constructive critique, but too many people (including myself) fear for the repercussions.

I would not rely upon the anonymity of sdn if you are genuinely concerned that your statements about a particular school will get you booted out. I have heard rumors (only rumors) of a student getting booted (not saying from which school) after posting certain grievances here in a certain heavily-discussed post, naming the school. The rumors may not be true, but the risks seem to outweigh the benefits.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Since people are using this thread to discuss the repercussions of pointing out flaws in their school.... i was wondering: What is the safety of doing it on SDN with a new account?

There are a number of policies and decisions made at my school that negatively impact the students. Many students are upset by this (we've even had 80%+ of our class sign petitions askign for things to be changed.. which the administration ignores), but many students say that they're too afraid to mention anything. Is creating a discussion (and making these issues public) a safe thing to do on SDN? Would my school somehow be able to get my IP address/MAC address from SDN for doing so? Could posting here come back to negatively impact me?

I personally think our education could be improved through constructive critique, but too many people (including myself) fear for the repercussions.

We politely ask people to keep 1 account.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

The bigger question is this: if you actually write a letter to COCA and sign it, what are the chances that any sort of change will occur?

 

[FutureInternist]

That's nice... but you were late one time to a mandatory meeting. That's unprofessional. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh, it was after you filed the complaint? Sorry, coincidence.

THIS !!!

There are SO many ways they can screw you over under the umbrella of "professionalism"
What was previously looked over, ignored or swept under the rug, will all of a sudden become a "recurring problem that student failed to address" and you are on your way out
I did send some stuff out re: medical school but it was only AFTER I started Residency since by then all the necessary paperwork, LoRs, scores etc had to have been submitted

 

[Giovanotto]

Can you sign it: sincerely, anonymous?

 

[Siggy]

Can you sign it: sincerely, anonymous?

Only if you're wearing a Guy Fawkes mask at the time.

 

[Seth Joo]

do you know of anyone at a DO school who has been dismissed for contacting AOA or COCA to complain about poor rotations or not having core rotations available at their assigned rotation site? Or has your school threatened to kick out anyone who complains to a governing body? If you don't feel "safe" discussing openly, send me a PM.

Poor rotations and clinical education is a fact of life at many DO schools, complaining to COCA won't do nothing. And complaining about once you are a student won't do nothing, you bought a KIA not a Mercedes. Schools really do not care because their mission is to create primary care physicians for needy communities not Neurosurgeons for Mass General.

 

[HotLunch96]

Only if you're wearing a Guy Fawkes mask at the time.

so edgy

 

[Goro]

This sounds both arbitrary and capricious, and in that regard, would get them sued successful in a hurry.

Does your student handbook or conduct code specifically prohibit students from complaining to regulatory bodies? I seriously doubt it.

Also who made the threat? A dean? Or THE Dean?????


Don't bother with the AOA, aim for COCA and also the main accrediting body for colleges and Universities (for example, it's Middle States on the east Coast; WASC on the West Coast).

I don't know if they're anonymous to the school or not. In order to submit a complaint to COCA you have to sign your name to the letter. And our administration just threatened to kick out anyone who speaks negatively to COCA.

 

[Late Bloomer]

The previous interim dean made the threat. I agree that we'd win a lawsuit but who knows how long the process would take or if we'd be able to get admission at another school. So much at risk. And they know they can use scare tactics cuz no one wants to risk getting set back months or years trying to fight them. And the more I think about it, the more I believe COCA wouldn't intervene to improve our rotation sites anyway.

 

[feeling-dizzy]

There are so many reasons to for the school to retaliate thru violation of "professionalism". It probably won't kick you out entirely, but will make your life terrible. And don't even let me start on "OMM" subjectivity. They could easy fail you thru OMM practical since the standard are so subjective; I mean how can you tell for sure you are C4 or C5; or your classmate have inhalation vs. exhalation dysfunction for that matter. All he needs to do is "sneeze" and that would change the whole thing.

 

[Goro]

One of the problems with oversight bodies is that at times they require things to get done, in which case, they get done.

But when they recommend things get done, well, those don't get done.

Deans are also quite artful at blowing smoke up excretory organs.

Complaints to oversight bodies typically get results under one of two circumstances:

(1) The oversight body was unaware that the problem was occurring and it is a problem they want to address.

(2) The oversight body was aware of the problem in a general sense, they want to address it, but they were unaware of the specific locations that it was taking place.

It seems here like "everyone" knows about the problem, and that the same schools keep coming up again and again (on SDN).

Is it really possible the accrediting bodies don't already know the problem is occurring, or don't know where it is occurring? If they are aware, filing a complaint is the definition of a high-risk low-yield action.

 

[Bones 2020]

OP, I know which school you are referring to. So be careful with your past post history.

I have heard a lot about the poor quality of rotations at this school. Nothing will change if nobody speaks up outside of SDN

 

[AZCOM2018]

OP, I know which school you are referring to. So be careful with your past post history.

I have heard a lot about the poor quality of rotations at this school. Nothing will change if nobody speaks up outside of SDN

Unfortunately, we still don't know if posting with a new account (which for the sake of this argument can be stated to be the users only account) is safe or not. Will SDN hand over IP address/MAC address information to schools?

Until that question is answered, i'm too far in debt and have invested too much into this career to sacrifice it.

 

[Mjolner]

Unfortunately, we still don't know if posting with a new account (which for the sake of this argument can be stated to be the users only account) is safe or not. Will SDN hand over IP address/MAC address information to schools?

Until that question is answered, i'm too far in debt and have invested too much into this career to sacrifice it.

Why would they? They'd have zero legal obligation and outing a student who did want many wish they had the courage to do would change SDN forever.
No one would ever say anything but glowing reviews of medicine, residencies, specialties, insurance companies, and hospitals.
Although, everyone would be a lot nicer, even if 85% of what we post would instead be silence.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Unfortunately, we still don't know if posting with a new account (which for the sake of this argument can be stated to be the users only account) is safe or not. Will SDN hand over IP address/MAC address information to schools?

Until that question is answered, i'm too far in debt and have invested too much into this career to sacrifice it.

No they won't. The pharmacy school in my state had accreditation issues and the students made their protests known on this forum. The faculty of the school tried to contact the moderators/staff of this forum to find out who these students were. The moderators/staff stated they could not give this information because they held anonymity in high regard on this forum.

I have a great respect for the moderators/staff here, because they respect the posters rights.

 

[AZCOM2018]

Why would they? They'd have zero legal obligation and outing a student who did want many wish they had the courage to do would change SDN forever.
No one would ever say anything but glowing reviews of medicine, residencies, specialties, insurance companies, and hospitals.
Although, everyone would be a lot nicer, even if 85% of what we post would instead be silence.

I hear you. I think my concern stems from a few years back, I heard about a someone talking about MCAT questions and I heard that SDN reported them. I can't find it, and i'm not sure if it was a rumor, but that's what has me worried. It's probably paranoia more than anything else

 

[AZCOM2018]

No they won't. The pharmacy school in my state had accreditation issues and the students made their protests know on this forum. The faculty of the school tried to contact the moderators/staff of this forum to find out who these students were. The moderators/staff stated they could not give this information because they held anonymity in high regard on this forum.

I have a great respect for the moderators/staff here, because they respect the posters rights.

oh! nice! very good to know. i hadn't even heard about this!

 

[Mjolner]

I hear you. I think my concern stems from a few years back, I heard about a someone talking about MCAT questions and I heard that SDN reported them. I can't find it, and i'm not sure if it was a rumor, but that's what has me worried. It's probably paranoia more than anything else

That. Is VERY different.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

I had to read a bunch of material (rules and regulations etc.) before becoming a mod. The privacy of members is taken VERY seriously.

 

[IslandStyle808]

oh! nice! very good to know. i hadn't even heard about this!

PMed you the article.

 

[Bones 2020]

No, but admins and faculty do prowl these forums. I will not go into details, but I have firsthand experience in the matter...

 

[AnonCulture]

Unfortunately, we still don't know if posting with a new account (which for the sake of this argument can be stated to be the users only account) is safe or not. Will SDN hand over IP address/MAC address information to schools?

Until that question is answered, i'm too far in debt and have invested too much into this career to sacrifice it.

If you are concerned about your identity, use Tor browser or public library computer (except your school's library)!

 

[asdf123g]

If you are concerned about your identity, use Tor browser or public library computer (except your school's library)!

are you saying schools monitor what websites students visit if they connect to their network?

 

[JustaDO]

No, but admins and faculty do prowl these forums. I will not go into details, but I have firsthand experience in the matter...

Considering you haven't even started medical school, I'm quite interested in your "first-hand" experience.

 

[Bones 2020]

Considering you haven't even started medical school, I'm quite interested in your "first-hand" experience.

I said something implying that Burrell wasn't a top choice school for me, and they revoked my application. At the time my profile had part of my name in it

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I said something implying that Burrell wasn't a top choice school for me, and they revoked my application. At the time my profile had part of my name in it

Wow, that's a little intense. I know some admissions offices keep tabs on their school-specific threads to see "candid" feedback for interview days and such... but to take action against applicants for implying that their school wasn't a top choice seems a bit over-the-top.

 

[Bones 2020]

Wow, that's a little intense. I know some admissions offices keep tabs on their school-specific threads to see "candid" feedback for interview days and such... but to take action against applicants for implying that their school wasn't a top choice seems a bit over-the-top.

I agree. They said they "only want people excited to be in their program," but at the same time I agree with them. If it was at the bottom of my list, I likely would not have been "proud" to be a student there. It all worked out in the end so I'm not too concerned. But it was a good lesson for being as anonymous as possible on this site.

 

[Mjolner]

Considering you haven't even started medical school, I'm quite interested in your "first-hand" experience.

I'm a current Med student. I know for a fact they do.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

No they won't. The pharmacy school in my state had accreditation issues and the students made their protests know on this forum. The faculty of the school tried to contact the moderators/staff of this forum to find out who these students were. The moderators/staff stated they could not give this information because they held anonymity in high regard on this forum.

I have a great respect for the moderators/staff here, because they respect the posters rights.

Great on SDN to uphold the integrity of anonymity.

 

[GUH]

Even if SDN respects users' privacy, there may be details which a smart administrator could use to identify you.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that my administration knows who I am.

 

[polylux]

SDN may uphold your privacy, but if you've ever made posts about your school then it is possible they can track you down somehow, most likely through various information you may or may not have given out about yourself while answering/asking questions.

 

[petyr_baelish]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. When I think about how a school would track you down on a forum like SDN, there would be some huge roadblocks. First, they would have to get the site to comply with the request for your IP/MAC address or your social media information (if provided at sign up). Based on comments in this thread from mods, it looks pretty difficult. However I can imagine it'd be done with a court order. (So don't say anything that might land you in court?*)

But let's say there is some way they can know who you are without going through the moderators because you posted a link to your Facebook and posted a lot of details about who you are and your current school. At this point, everyone and their dog knows who you are (and your life may be awkward at school now) but if a school wants to act on this information, the burden of proof is on the school. However unlikely it may seem to a casual observer, people have been known to change their identity on the internet and say they are doing things they are not. So unless you admit that the posts are yours I have a hard time making the leap between a school knowing who you are and actually throwing you out of a program based on that knowledge. What if your little brother is a troll and a premed, so he pretends to be you on the internet to gain more credibility on this forum? Same IP address, intimate knowledge that you may have shared with him and some offensive or unprofessional behavior. I think banning this IP address would be the most reasonable course of action but potentially throwing out an innocent student seems like an overkill unless they have really concrete proof.

However the golden rule still applies. Don't say or do anything you wouldn't say or do in front of the Dean and you'll be alright.


*Just speculating here without any legal training, but I think defaming a school on the internet would be enough justification to track a student down. If a post can be shown to affect applicant numbers (to whatever standard is required in law) and thus how much money the school is going to make, this could amount to quantifiable damages. I really wouldn't want to be a defendant in that case.

 

[Mjolner]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. When I think about how a school would track you down on a forum like SDN, there would be some huge roadblocks. First, they would have to get the site to comply with the request for your IP/MAC address or your social media information (if provided at sign up). Based on comments in this thread from mods, it looks pretty difficult. However I can imagine it'd be done with a court order. (So don't say anything that might land you in court?)

But let's say there is some way they can know who you are without going through the moderators because you posted a link to your Facebook and posted a lot of details about who you are and your current school. At this point, everyone and their dog knows who you are (and your life may be awkward at school now) but if a school wants to act on this information, the burden of proof is on the school. However unlikely it may seem to a casual observer, people have been known to change their identity on the internet and say they are doing things they are not. So unless you admit that the posts are yours I have a hard time making the leap between a school knowing who you are and actually throwing you out of a program based on that knowledge. What if your little brother is a troll and a premed, so he pretends to be you on the internet to gain more credibility on this forum? Same IP address, intimate knowledge that you may have shared with him and some offensive or unprofessional behavior. I think banning this IP address would be the most reasonable course of action but potentially throwing out an innocent student seems like an overkill unless they have really concrete proof.

However the golden rule still applies. Don't say or do anything you wouldn't say or do in front of the Dean and you'll be alright.

I'm correcting you.
You're wrong.

 

[petyr_baelish]

I'm correcting you.
You're wrong.

OK that's cool. I am curious as to why?

 

[Mjolner]

OK that's cool. I am curious as to why?

Do they have to take this to court or does a committee just decide that you're out, not getting in after all, etc? And how does this lower their burden of proof? Does your school have a safety net for administrative actions, often called professionalism policy or the like?

Think about that and you answer your questions.