Hi. I was a first year and I was dismissed from an MD program for academic difficulties. I never adjusted to med school. If I took some grad level courses and proved myself, is there any possible way I could get into a PA program?
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Dismissed from MD program
Started by LostFirstYear
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deleted6669
highly unlikely.
with 1000 applicants for 30 spots for most pa programs they are not looking for medschool dropouts.
with 1000 applicants for 30 spots for most pa programs they are not looking for medschool dropouts.
Nope, they're looking for the best possible applicants like every other type of program. Maybe one of those best possible applicants tried med school and found out it wasn't for him/her. Hopefully this applicant will also have some tact and a realistic sense of self-worth, though apparently this isn't a criteria for admission.
I don't see why you couldn't get into a PA program--if you do as you say and fix some things--but the bigger question is are you sure you want to? If I were you, I'd spend some time making sure this is a battle you want to fight. And what I think emedpa meant to say is that becoming a PA shouldn't be seen as a "fallback". Don't fool yourself, you WILL work your ass off in a PA program.
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deleted6669
also consider that medschool and pa school prereqs can vary so you might need as much as 2 yrs of prereqs that you don't have not to mention that pesky health care experience that quality pa programs require.....is it possible for a medschool dropout to get into a pa program? sure, but it would take a LOT of work to impress the adcom that you were up for it(trust me on this I have been involved with admissions at several pa programs). foreign physicians have a hard enough time getting into pa programs although it is not unheard of. I'm not trying to be brutal and blunt here, just realistic. I saw in another of your posts that you struggled with A+P. this is the first course you would have to take and pass in pa school. at many pa programs it is taught alongside the medstudents. the pace of pa school is not a cakewalk; m-f 8-5 in class with very few breaks and no time off between yr 1 and yr 2. as soon as you pass your finals for 1st yr you start rotations the next week. most pa programs have a week off at xmas and a week off in the spring and that's it. the pace can be brutal with exams almost every day...it is not for the faint of heart....and for those without significant prior medical experience clinicals can be tough. we expect the pa students to hit the ground running on clinicals and continue building from the level of a nurse, medic, or r.t.
there are those without significant experience in some newer pa programs with lower experience requirements but they do not have an easy time of it.
there are those without significant experience in some newer pa programs with lower experience requirements but they do not have an easy time of it.
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njbmd
It's worth a look to see what's out there. Not all PA programs are going to automatically waive on you because you were dismissed from medical school. As others have said, you may have to do some additional prereqs but depending on your previous coursework, you may have the prereqs for some programs.
You likely do not need to take graduate-level coursework and many PA programs are dropping the hours of health care experience requirement. It's not a bad idea to explore other healthcare fields including PA as being dismissed from medical school happens. Just because medicine might not be for you, doesn't mean that you couldn't be or wouldn't be a great PA, AA, RN NP or anything else. Just do some solid investigation work and see what might be a good fit before you jump in.
I would also strongly encourage you to figure out why you had academic difficulties in medical school and correct any problems before trying to enter another healthcare profession.
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deleted6669
or perhaps work on your study skills and reapply to a different medschool...sounds like your mcat/gpa is not an issue so there might be a program willing to give you a second chance if md/do is what your really want to do....
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njbmd
This is not an option if one has been dismissed from an LCME medical school in the US.
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deleted6669
emedpa said:
From what I hear, the carib schools are pretty easy to get into, hard to graduate from. They really weed people out. So I'd be pretty worried about getting through one if I couldn't handle the academics at a US school. If anything it sound like they have to study harder down there and are tested more.
OP did not find out "med school isn't right for him", the school decided for him. I don't get why people don't understand that PA school isn't for med school rejects and dropouts. I would understand why programs wouldn't want to give him a seat and that students in programs wouldn't want him as a classmate. We want people who want to be PAs and that believe in the concept. OP said nothing about desiring to be a PA. He's scrambling to find something as a backup. Unless your program was a "backup" or treated as second rate you really have no idea.
Ok, look, I know it seems like I'm using PA as a back up, but the thing is, I want to be a clinician and have wanted to for many years. I tried med school and it didn't work out. So does that mean I have to look into a different field entirely? Why shouldn't I be allowed to apply for PA school when they do the same job as doctors. I want to see patients, counsel them, diagnose them, and treat them. I can do that as a doctor or as a PA. When one door shut in my face, why shouldn't I pursue the other? Just because med school wasn't right for me doesn't mean that PA school won't be. I don't know if a PA school will give me a shot. They have a right not to, but please don't give me your hallow indignation that I dare to even apply or consider such a thing.
I would think there would be a very high threshold to overcome as far as "proving yourself" with graduate courses. It also may be a very expensive threshold. From a more practical standpoint (financially and maybe logistically) have you considered an accelerated BSN-->MSN (NP) program for non-nursing baccalaureate graduates? You still may have an uphill climb against your previous med-school failure, but maybe after some intensive volunteering in the nursing arena you might have a chance. It still gets you to your clinical goal and it's my impression that the competition is somewhat less fierce for clinical nursing programs than for PA school (though I freely admit I could be wrong about this).
One such program:
http://www.son.rochester.edu/programs/apnn/ampnn.html
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njbmd
The OP is certainly not the first person to be dismissed from medical school (or who couldn't get into medical school) to show an interest in being a PA. There are plenty of FMGs who can't pass medical boards who are sitting in PA schools right now. How do I know this? My university has a PA program that accepted 3 last year. They also accepted 2 people who didn't have the grades for medical school (stated this in their admission interview).
There are people who have used medical school as a "backup" for other professions so what's with getting your "knickers in a knot"? People make adjustments in this country and the last time I looked, were free to explore or investigate whatever they wish. The OP may go on to gain acceptance into PA school (whether or not you want them there) and contribute greatly to the profession and health care. In the United States, he/she has the right to do this.
What they OP can't do is reapply to another medical school in the United States that is LCME (MD and DO) because they left an LCME school. In short, that leaves overseas which may not be of interest to the OP because they have clearly stated that medicine is not what they want to pursue. My guess is that the OP knows about overseas medical schools since they applied to medical school in the first place.
If the OP has the prereqs (which likely they do) and meets the admission requirements for PA school, then they are likely to get accepted. They may not get into every PA school in this country but they only need one acceptance.
Since I teach both PA and medical students (on medical admissions committee and academic surgeon), I do know the admissions process. In short, it makes sense for the OP to explore Physician Assistant, Anesthesia Assistant, nursing and any other healthcare profession out there that is of interest. It's his/her call and not our call, so our opinions don't matter because there are as many reasons for pursing PA as there are PAs in this country. If that's where the OP chooses to go, then by all means, go for what you want. He or she just might find a profession where they can flourish, be satisfied and contribute to the health of this nation.
Thank you for your kind support!!
Just my $0.02: I wouldn't start exploring other options for a medical career until you've lost your appeal to continue at your medical school. I would make it clear that you've lost confidence and ask to return the following year as an M1 (in a decelerated program, if they offer it). You can use the next two semesters to recover and figure out what went wrong with your study skills. The solution may involve anything from meditation to medication but I strongly believe that if you had the stats you quoted coming in that there is a solution out there for you.
If they sdey your appeal then fine, but don't give up without trying.
If they sdey your appeal then fine, but don't give up without trying.
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njbmd
PA programs are not necessarily "easier" that medical school in some aspects. Most are organized on the "medical" model but "easier" versus "harder" is quite subjective. Certainly the volume of information to be mastered is far less in a 24-27-month PA program that includes both pre-clinical and clinical work.
It's generally the volume that becomes difficult for most entering medical students. Most medical students find themselves in academic difficulty, not because the material is difficult to learn but because something/someone interferes with the time that they need to master the sheer volume of it. That "something" may be a personal issue (learning disability, time-management, illness) or a family issue but in practically every case, it's not an intelligence or scholastic ability issue. this is why it becomes imperative that the OP figure out what they need to master a demanding course of study be it PA or returning to the medical school that dismissed them (if that is their desire).
Can things interfere with PA studies? Of course they can and do for the same reasons as "things" interfere with mastery of medical school coursework. I certainly wouldn't say that being a PA is any "easier" than being a physician but it is certainly a shorter path that has it's own kind of demands for students.
I don't know about MD schools, but I know that if someone has been dismissed from a U.S. med school, they can apply to DO schools.
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deleted6669
reality check:
my local pa program's credits in 2 yrs= 162
same school's md program ms1+ms2=150 credits
pa students don't get the summer between 1st and second yr off. md students do.
Precisely.
Yawn. Here we go again. Credits mean nothing. What you learn for each credit is what matters. A 6 credit class at school A does not equal a 6 credit class at school B. Learning what a varicocele is during your 1098129837 credits means very little. Learning why it's concerning if it occurs on the right vs left side is more important. And most of us did research between MS1 and MS2.
Sorry, but you will never convince anyone that PA school is more demanding than medical school. It's nothing to brag about - just fact. I understand the need for everyone to feel this sense of self importance and that they work the hardest, but let's be real.
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deleted6669
oh, look. I can quote out of context as well.
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deleted6669
my credit comparisons are from THE SAME SCHOOL.
THAT RESEARCH BETWEEN MS1 AND MS2 WAS WAS OPTIONAL, NOT REQUIRED TO GRADUATE.
( I learned to ride a bike between 1st and 2nd grade. impressed? )
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And I still don't care. I don't care if you claim to have 197820 billion gazillion credit hours. What you learn during those credit hours is what matters, and you don't learn nearly the same amount of material or detail as MDs or DOs. A 6 credit community college class is not the same as a 6 credit university class. Same school or not, the number of credits are meaningless.
If I told you that you sat around and did nothing between 1st and 2nd grade, and you told me you learned to ride a bike - then I'd admit my statement was wrong. I was contesting your <false> claim that medical students don't work during the summer.
Continue fighting your losing battle of self importance.
I thought PA was harder than MD since it is more compact...I think the OP's study skills should be looked at and then of course apply to PA. Everyone that I know that did PA first and then went to Med school found the latter easy and worked while they did it. My friend that did this said because alot of the stuff they learned in PA school...
Good luck OP
accepted 2014 UCF
Good luck OP
accepted 2014 UCF
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deleted6669
I thought PA was harder than MD since it is more compact...I think the OP's study skills should be looked at and then of course apply to PA. Everyone that I know that did PA first and then went to Med school found the latter easy and worked while they did it. My friend that did this said because alot of the stuff they learned in PA school...
Good luck OP
accepted 2014 UCF
agree- I have 2 friends who went pa to doc who worked 24 hrs/week ms1 and ms2 and full time the summer between ms1 and 2.
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deleted6669
I will agree that credits don't represent difficulty. they do however represent volume of material/time. a 5 unit physics class takes more hrs/week than a 4 unit physics class.
I'm not arguing that pa school is "harder" than medschool. ms1 certainly is "harder" than pa1 in terms of concepts and depth. we cover a lot of volume from ms1 and ms2 in 1 yr. maybe not the "hardest" volume but the most clinically relevant volume to practicing primary care.
my second point was that optional research is well, optional. lots of folks in medschool take an extended vacation between ms 1 and ms 2 so it doesn't matter if you do something else, you did it because you wanted to, not because you had to.
I think that you are both right for different reasons...one of the reasons i decided to do MD over PA is the amount of knowledge and responsibilities that is required of a PA. My ego just would not let me be a PA. Obviously there is a differnce hence the differnt titles and job descriptions. From my understanding the compactness is difficult compared to MD because it is not as spread out...MD first and second year is dedicated to sciencebut in a PA program they must finish science and clinicals in that time...
To the OP there are people in MD school that were Pharmist, teachers nurses, PA and engineers etc, etc, if you have a competitive app you can explain anything away.
To the OP there are people in MD school that were Pharmist, teachers nurses, PA and engineers etc, etc, if you have a competitive app you can explain anything away.
Believe what you wish.
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njbmd
DO schools ARE medical schools and subject to LCME rules. In terms of readmission, to medical school the OP can only be readmitted to the medical school that they were dismissed from if that school allows for readmission (most do not).
And your point is...? Certainly, the OP has a viable option in exploring PA, AA, NP, DNP and other mid-level programs. Being dismissed from medical school is not a "death blow" in terms of getting into other allied health professions and doing well.
+1 here. The OP has been dealt a devastating blow in terms of what they planned for a career. "When one door closes, often a window of opportunity opens". Yes, going off shore is an option but the OP isn't interested in that option as they have stated in other posts on other forums. There are quite a few folks out there who were not interested in or able to become physicians who are excellent physician assistants.
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deleted6669
I was responding to j1515's misuse of one of your quotes in post #22, not the quote itself.
You're wrong. Some DO schools will look at someone previously dismissed from a U.S. med school. I personally know someone in that situation and also, it's playing right now on the Osteopathic forum.
To the OP:
I applied to med schools (twice) and still got into PA school. However, I didn't go the PA route because I couldn't get into med school, I just decided it was a better fit for me.
As for someone who was dismissed for academic reasons, there may be programs that would take you but I think you would have to present a convincing case why being a PA isn't just an "oh ****" plan.
Also consider that PA education isn't like "med school lite". Most programs are really condensed and there is little room for falling behind. You will have to convince them that the difficulties you had in med school were unique for some reason and you could still excel in PA, DO, or whatever. And DO schools do not fall under the LCME umbrella, I believe it's COCA.
I applied to med schools (twice) and still got into PA school. However, I didn't go the PA route because I couldn't get into med school, I just decided it was a better fit for me.
As for someone who was dismissed for academic reasons, there may be programs that would take you but I think you would have to present a convincing case why being a PA isn't just an "oh ****" plan.
Also consider that PA education isn't like "med school lite". Most programs are really condensed and there is little room for falling behind. You will have to convince them that the difficulties you had in med school were unique for some reason and you could still excel in PA, DO, or whatever. And DO schools do not fall under the LCME umbrella, I believe it's COCA.
Every now and then, someone posts a smart aleck response that just warms my heart. This was one of them.
It's a sad sad state when our egos are so inflated that a physician ASSISTANT is arguing that their training is as rigorous and comprehensive as a physician. Let's not stray from the real issue: the real argument was whether it is academically more demanding.
Here are a few things we should all be able to agree on:
1) Neither PA school nor MD school are easy.
2) The programs cover similar material, sometimes the same topics, and there is some overlap.
3) Although acknowledging #2 above...medical school covers more academic medical science than PA school.
4) PA programs are vastly different from EACH OTHER and so are MD programs. Comparing them even at the same institution based on any objective measure such as credit hours is stupid (apples and oranges) and makes you look like you don't understand that units of measurement are meaningless without some sort of conversion factor, which doesn't exist.
5) PA has the word "assistant" behind "physician". Their role is to assist physicians. Physicians utilize a PA's assistance. This doesn't mean they're tied at the hip, nor does it mean a physician has to be present for every PA activity, nor does it mean that they do the exact same thing as one another. It just means that a PA's function by definition is subordinate to a physician. Sorry.
"Harder" is a pretty frickin' subjective word.
The OP is a perfect example of that. Med school was too hard for him. That doesn't mean he wasn't smart enough, and it doesn't mean that given the right setting, he couldn't do exceedingly well even with the same course material. It just meant it was hard for him to get good grades M1 year, for whatever reason. Applying this concept to the debate about whether MD or PA school is "harder", it's a pretty stupid argument. They're all different in structure and confounding variables.
But all things equal, are they different in academic demand and rigor? Let's revisit #3 above: medical school covers more academic medical science than PA school. If you can't accept that, there's a fundamental flaw in your knowledge about this topic that no debate will be able to get around. So given that medical school covers more ground than PA school, the only way to hypothetically be as academically demanding/rigorous would be if the PA curriculum were more conentrated such that although they cover less material, they do it more faster and harder than an MD curriculum would and thus there is a functional difference in academic rigor. And you'll never answer that question entirely, since it's impossible to study and the only "evidence" anyone can offer is anecdotal stuff like:
-So-and-so 1 did PA school then MD school and he said MD school was harder
-So-and-so 2 did PA school then MD school and he said MD school was easier
There's no way to ferret out if MD school was easier because they already did SOME of it as a PA, or if it was harder for some other likewise confounding variable. The only thing you get out of a debate like this is escalation of tempers and egos until you're flat out calling each other inferior to one another. I think everyone should just agree on #1-5 above and obviate the need to take taunting shots at one another.
Well, you could always try applying to RVU-- they took a DO student who flunked out of med student. As they're for-profit, they may not be as concerned about your academic abilities as much as they are your credit status.
He wasn't. Read it again. And you could show a little more respect for a PA who has worked in emergency medicine more years than you've most likely been alive.
Remember, the title is not 'Physician's Assistant', it is Physician Assistant. Does it mean assisting a Physician? Or does it mean assisting in the science and art of Physicianship? Interesting. Looking further, there has been recommendation for a track as follows:
http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24257
Anyone with a history of clinical experience can understand how this makes sense. In fact, the profession began with the title Physician Associate and then was changed (I believe largely due to grumblings of the AMA). However, Yale, Duke and OU still graduate PAs under the title of Physician Associate. I think the AMA could be more accepting of such a tiered system, provided all the examination and regulation parameters were logically in place. It is a MUCH more appropriate title once someone has reached the same level of clinical experience and knowledge as a MD/DO.
I would be wary of using the word "subordinate" so loosely. Again, there is no apostrophe. I've worked in many ERs, all where PAs are highly utilized and are in no way seen or treated as subordinates. They are treated as colleagues, under the umbrella of their scope which is more than often primary care (level 4 and 5 patients, with the occasional level 3 and even 2 at times). Then there are the very experienced PAs, such as emedpa, who see patients levels 5 to 1. I highly doubt the practitioners who work with him (regardless of their title) see him in any way as a subordinate.
The rest of your post is quite sound, you'll do very well with it all when the time comes. You know, I was seen in an ER when my back went out recently, an ER that doesn't have a PA-fast-track system. Some of the wait times in the waiting room had reached 7 and 8 hours, it was ridiculous. People were furious. All I could think as I sat in my hall chair was that here was this counter in front of me that could have PAs seeing the lower level cases, freeing up the Docs to continue with the traumas and codes. As it was, it took 8 hours for a Doctor to see me and get me my Toradol shot and send me out with my Ibuprofen 800 scrip. Trust me ... I will be writing a letter of suggestion.
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deleted6669
They all have Marfans?
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deleted6669
no,we just have big heads and hands from bashing them into walls every day after work....
That's right; you're saying that PA's have 162 credit hours over two full years without a summer break in between years one and two-- this means that AT YOUR SCHOOL they are taking only 12 more credit hours than the MD's with an entire summer to do it.
As great as PA's are, you can't tell me that the knowledge gained during PA school is comparable to med school. Med school is longer, faster, and we HAVE to do a residency afterwards, which is where physicians really start to get competent.
