DO and the path to residency/fellowship as a Canadian

[manannaik]

Hey guys,

I am a cdn citizen with an undergrad from a US school. I am going to start applying soon, and was thinking about applying to DO 1)Because I have tended to like their philosophy 2)broaden my app.

Now the questions are:

1) Has anyone had experience of how hard admissions to a US DO program as a cdn is? Any specifics to look out for?

2) Once completed the degree, how does the process of residency play out for canadians, Specifically if your applying to MD residencies. Are competitive spots hard to come by because your first cdn and then a DO. Does the H1 and J1 thing work the same

3) Returning to Canada for residency, I am not sure how intrested I am in this but, I have read that in ontario US DO's get a shot at 1st round. How realistic of an option is this, or is it just beuracracy to make it look fair.

thanks guys

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[docbill]

http://p090.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm21.showMessage?topicID=302.topic

Check this out.

I will try to answer questions when I have some time.

PS. 1st round in ontrio for FP only.

 

[manannaik]

thanks for all the help, docbill, waiting for your reply

Also are there any specific DO schools that are cdn freindly in terms of admissions, I was really intrested in MSU, as its closer and a great school as well, any experiences?

 

[docbill]

DO SCHOOLS ACCEPTING CANADIANS

From when I applied 2 summers ago are the following.

Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University YES

Western University of Health Sciences COM YES

Des Moines University YES

Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University YES

University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine (YES DEFINITELY SURE ABOUT THIS ONE)

Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine (RARE And tuition is 48k)

A. T. Still University-Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine YES

University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey School of Osteopathic Medicine NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


New York College of Osteopathic Medicine of New York Institute of Technology NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine YES

Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine YES

Edward Via Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine I THINK NO.

 

[manannaik]

I think midwestern in chicago does aswell right?

Thanks docbill, will wait for when u have time to anwser my main questions, I hope I am not putting you through too much trouble

 

[docbill]

Hey Manannaik,

DO schools have an interesting philosophy and approach to medicine. However there similarities between the new way of teaching Allopathic medicine and Osteopathic medicine is (from my obervation) >90% the same.

I see two main differences. 1) Having a DO after your name 2) Learning OMM 3) Slightly more primary care objectives (FP, PED, OBGYN, IM, EM, etc and not SURGERY, RADIOLOGY, ETC).

I found application and admission easy. Maybe my file was good... or maybe they liked the fact that I have grad deg. Maybe they felt bad for me.. who knows. My application was ready in July. I started getting invites in Aug. and First acceptance was 3rd of October. Of course I did not apply to MSU or NJ, OSU, simply because they accept US citizens or little chance as at MSU.

Residency is basically the same as MD residency. Actually more than half of DO graduates compete and get MD residencies (ACGME). But They can also apply for DO residencies (AOA regulated). Of course ACGME is considered to be a better program. It is not easy.. but its not hard. You do have to take the USMLEs (MD exams) and the COMLEX (DO exams) to apply for residency. But again the two exams are deamed similar. ~80%+

Competitive spots are hard to get either way... NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT. But you do have 2 additional "red flags" that may hinder your application at some places 1) DO degree 2) CANADIAN (not so much). Simply need a J1 visa or cary on your F1 visa option for one year training, then get a J1 or try to get an H1B visa (much more difficult... but very do-able).

Returning to Canada for residency, ... hmmm for FM in Ontario or Alberta second round is liley. I don't think this will make a huge problem. I believe that to come back to Canada you need to do Canadian exams before applying to CaRMS. You may have a one year delay. A better option would be to get a FM or primary care possition somewhere close to the border in Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba, Alberta or BC. Where you may be able to commute 15-30 min every day (not less time than commuting in Vancouver or Toronto or Montreal). Fort Erie (ON) and Buffalo (NY) is one example that a friend of mine is doing.

After your residency it is easier to come back to Ontario (that is 7-10 years) after having left. But by then one has to decide if its worth it. Other provinces like BC will give you a temperary license for a few year, till you pass your boards. Of course this may all change, and we may all die tomorrow from SARS. No one can really tell the future. You must just go along with it and see what you can make of it.

Also important thing to consider is MONEY. It is expensive. 50K US per/year easy. Most places estimate more.

Later,
dB

 

[docbill]

I think midwestern in chicago does aswell right?

CCOM is midwestern.

 

[MeowMix]

you will almost certainly get in somewhere in the US, but it will be expensive and you will face some challenges in returning home with a DO. The biggest problem, I believe, is that there is great bias against DOs by MDs in Canada, partly based on issues like the osteopathic school in Ontario is not really a medical school at all. In addition, most of your patients will not know what a DO is. I don't even know if you could practice in Canada if you did an AOA (DO) residency. You could return to Canada and do a regular residency there, but you would have to write the Canadian exams.

If you really want to practice in Canada, life will be easier and cheaper with an MD. Preferably from a Canadian school.

 

[docbill]

There may be some lack of knowledge about DOs in Canada and among Canadian MDs. However, the return process especially for Ontario and soon to be other provinces, is actually okay and getting easier. I think places like BC, Qc, Alb, and ON are great areas to practice medicine as a DO. People in these places have been looking for alternatives or something different. Look at the big boom in Accupuncture (sp) and NP. So I think if one is a smart business man (yes physicians have to be smart in business) they can do really well.

As long as one does an ACGME residency and not an AOA residency. This will put a DO physician at par with others. Of course there are always always those MDs who will not recognize or respect a DO. Those are most likely the same that think surgery or their specialty is the only one to do real medicine and those are likely to be the one who will look down on IMG as well.

Yes of course..

If you really want to practice in Canada, life will be easier and cheaper with an MD. Preferably from a Canadian school.

But its definitely not as easy as that! I have offered to pay US fees to stay in MY country... but I don't see anyone rushing to open up that door. Or anyone willing to give up there seat so I could do that.

This is going to really hinder how fast I am willing to run back to practice here.

 

[ruck]

All of these are correct except Lake Erie..it's a NOOOOOOOO...I contacted them about it.

DO SCHOOLS ACCEPTING CANADIANS

From when I applied 2 summers ago are the following.

Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University YES

Western University of Health Sciences COM YES

Des Moines University YES

Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University YES

University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine (YES DEFINITELY SURE ABOUT THIS ONE)

Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine (RARE And tuition is 48k)

A. T. Still University-Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine YES

University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey School of Osteopathic Medicine NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


New York College of Osteopathic Medicine of New York Institute of Technology NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine YES

Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine YES

Edward Via Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine I THINK NO.

 

[docbill]

All of these are correct except Lake Erie..it's a NOOOOOOOO...I contacted them about it.

REALLYYY you sure about that? Woow that would be a change. Cause I heard they wanted to make good ties with Canada, especially Ontario. Also I know one Canadian that is going to school there.

Maybe they changed their policy or you got someone in the office that doesn't know what they are talking about.

Either way its good to know.

 

[xylem29]

Important question here, since I've come to consider the DO route!

I'm a bit confused about the process of returning to Canada. I read on your sticky from the cdn forums that as long as you go to an accredited DO school, take the USMLE's, and do an AGME residency you can practice in Canada.

First, is AGME a residency in Canada or USA? 2ndly, if AGME is a residency in Canada, don't you have to write the mccqe exams or something? you know, the cdn equivalent of the uslme..or does taking the uslme mean we don't have to take the cdn exam and still match into canadian residency? lastly, how many sucessful DO's are there in ON because while DO's are more well known in the US, I'm not sure if the public in general (in ON) would know what a DO is and would this not hurt your private family practice? ex. ppl not considering you to be a real doctor (even tho you are, and the regulatory bodies do), grouping you with NP's or something...

 

[docbill]

Sorry for the delay. Just got way too much on my plate. Anatomy is killing me... embryology is okay.. plus I have conference preparations to take care of.

I'm a bit confused about the process of returning to Canada. I read on your sticky from the cdn forums that as long as you go to an accredited DO school, take the USMLE's, and do an AGME residency you can practice in Canada.


As long as you do USMLEs and an ACGME (MD accredited residency in the USA only ... Residency in Canad is not ACGME), then you can come back to ONTARIO specifically and work without any other exams. You have to meet the same duration of residency as that in Canada and prob other minor red tape administrative stuff.

The other provinces, as of now. You will have to do the Canadian Exams. I plan to do the Canadian Exams while doing the USMLEs and the COMLEX (DO school equivalence). Now BC will also give you a temperary license to work till you complete the exams in Canada if you are acredited by College of specialty in the US.


how many sucessful DO's are there in ON because while DO's are more well known in the US, I'm not sure if the public in general (in ON) would know what a DO is and would this not hurt your private family practice? ex. ppl not considering you to be a real doctor (even tho you are, and the regulatory bodies do), grouping you with NP's or something...

There are 4 or 5 DO's working in Ontario (that I know of). DO's just put Dr.JOHN DOW, Family Physician and that is all you need to do. In reality since we don't have DO school in Canada, your degree is an MD equivalent. Just like those who come from abroad who don't use MD for their degree.

People are dying to get a family physician in Ontario so you will not have a problem filling your practice. Most likely you will be linked to one or two other physicians in your practice and the patients will flow from one to another. Once people get to know about your background.. this might come to be an advantage later. People will seek out a physician with more preventative and whole body aproach to treatement. NOT everyone.. but some may.

Hopefuly this helps. It is a big step to take.. simply coming to the US to study medicine. Definitely bigger step if doing DO degree.. but I think unique is good.

Best
b

 

[kealaq]

Hey again manannaik,

I couldn't find the link to the osteopathic doctor's "practice rights, AOA INTERNATIONAL LICENSURE SUMMARY" somewhere on the pre-osteopathic forums. You can find some details for both India & Canada on it. Message me & I will email it to you.

kealaq

 

[kealaq]

Update: Check out the sticky post of tkim, "International DO Practicing Rights" at the near-top of the pre-osteopathic forum menu. That's where I got the document, "Practice Rights, AOA INTERNATIONAL LICENSURE SUMMARY," listing all the possible countries an international DO can practice in.