DO fear mongering

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DoctorSynthesis

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So I have spent some time on the pre allo forum.

Worst mistake of my life.

Really confirmed my belief of wanting to be a DO and not to have to deal with people who are so full of themselves.

Moving on from that rant I wanted to talk to people over here about some of the stuff we were talking about there as I feel DO people can give a more real and non biased answer.

So I'm gonna start some of the things they fear monger about.

First they seem to question the quality of AOA residencies. Fear mongering or true?

Second they seem to question the ability to do humanitarian aid in third world countrjes as a DO. Based on my research it doesn't seen to be limited. Came across this. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/dos-and-doctors-without-borders.95337/

Fear mongering or accurate.

Any DO residents here wanna comment on getting residencies? This was another fear monger tactic they used.

There were also just plane uncalled for insults but I will leave those out.
 
I'm not a resident but a DO student who presents regularly on international practice rights for US-trained DOs.

Yes, MDs are allowed to practice medicine in more countries than DOs are. However, DOs are allowed to practice medicine in a large and growing number of countries, including developing countries. Some countries will let DOs practice if they are working under an organization like Doctors Without Borders. A small few will only allow a DO to practice OMM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States#mediaviewer/File:DOworld.PNG

Also, I happened to notice this gem in the thread you linked:
The World Health Organization recognizes American DO's already. If you download their "World Directory of Medical Schools" you'll find all 20 US DO schools listed there along with the rest of medical schools in the country (and the world).
A lot has changed in 11 years!
 
I posted there a long time ago and they basically said I should consider another field of work based on my past. Your experience may vary.

They act like they are better then you on there. Very annoying. So many rude comments. Saying stuff like you only go DO if you can't get into MD or MD students are higher caliber.

Just makes me mad.
 
I'm not a resident but a DO student who presents regularly on international practice rights for US-trained DOs.

Yes, MDs are allowed to practice medicine in more countries than DOs are. However, DOs are allowed to practice medicine in a large and growing number of countries, including developing countries. Some countries will let DOs practice if they are working under an organization like Doctors Without Borders. A small few will only allow a DO to practice OMM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States#mediaviewer/File:DOworld.PNG

The part that people who are part of doctors without borders being able to practice in in some countries that DOs can't pratice is what they don't get. How am I supposed to let them know that this kind of thing is perfectly OK? They don't seem to believe me and go on about Spain.

Anyone here a DO with experience in these organizations? They say insulting things like DOs don't care about other the poor in other countries. They also suggest its better if you want to do MSF to go carribean. No way this is true?

Also thank you for your response I appreciate someone who actually knows stuff about this responding not some blaber mouth pre allo idiot like I have been dealing with recently. @GUH what's your opinion on carribean versus do for doing programs like MSF?
 
The part that people who are part of doctors without borders being able to practice in in some countries that DOs can't pratice is what they don't get. How am I supposed to let them know that this kind of thing is perfectly OK? They don't seem to believe me and go on about Spain.

Anyone here a DO with experience in these organizations? They say insulting things like DOs don't care about other the poor in other countries. They also suggest its better if you want to do MSF to go carribean. No way this is true?

Also thank you for your response I appreciate someone who actually knows stuff about this responding not some blaber mouth pre allo idiot like I have been dealing with recently. @GUH what's your opinion on carribean versus do for doing programs like MSF?
Spain is not a "third-world" country. As poor as their health service is, I can name a whole bunch of Spanish-speaking countries with a more acute need for physicians which can grant DOs an unlimited license to practice medicine. I'm willing to bet that your MD friends will mostly not be practicing in Spain unless they have family connections there anyways.

I have no opinion on the merits of attending a DO school vs a Caribbean MD school for working with MSF. I suspect that you can do similar work either way. I am personally thankful to be attending a DO school for other reasons.
 
They act like they are better then you on there. Very annoying. So many rude comments. Saying stuff like you only go DO if you can't get into MD or MD students are higher caliber.

Just makes me mad.
I'd say that's true for a significant portion of DO students anymore. As far as MD students being higher caliber, well who knows. That argument is rather boring and based off MCAT/GPA numbers 95% of the time. A fair amount of people like to simplify arguments like that and use it as a foundation for whatever purpose they have. Do yourself a favor, and don't let what some goofy dweeb said bother you. Especially when it's a premed who's arrogance is often only surpassed by their ignorance on select topics.
 
So I have spent some time on the pre allo forum.

Worst mistake of my life.

Really confirmed my belief of wanting to be a DO and not to have to deal with people who are so full of themselves.

Moving on from that rant I wanted to talk to people over here about some of the stuff we were talking about there as I feel DO people can give a more real and non biased answer.

So I'm gonna start some of the things they fear monger about.

First they seem to question the quality of AOA residencies. Fear mongering or true?

Second they seem to question the ability to do humanitarian aid in third world countrjes as a DO. Based on my research it doesn't seen to be limited. Came across this. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/dos-and-doctors-without-borders.95337/

Fear mongering or accurate.

Any DO residents here wanna comment on getting residencies? This was another fear monger tactic they used.

There were also just plane uncalled for insults but I will leave those out.

It's not just DO schools, I remember some one providing a list of countries that only allow a certain MDs graduating from certain schools to practice in their countries. So even MDs are cherry picked. I think when DOs become greater in numbers, then more of these countries will be willing for them to practice in their borders.

Side note: I wouldn't keep going to the pre-allo forums if I were you. They just talk about the most neurotic things. Ex. "Is there a difference between a 3.69 GPA and 3.7 GPA" (times that by ten).
 
They act like they are better then you on there. Very annoying. So many rude comments. Saying stuff like you only go DO if you can't get into MD or MD students are higher caliber.

Just makes me mad.
What I try to harp on is that medical schools represent a spectrum with a decent sized overlap between the 2 degrees in the middle. Many of the more established DO schools would provide a similar (if not better) education than the lower ranked MD schools. Some of us are lucky enough to have a state school or multiple state schools and can get in to an MD program relatively easily, while many of my peers from undergrad had to face the barriers of being an OOS applicant and ended up at a DO school. So technically speaking they did go DO because they couldn't get MD, but we're talking about people with very good stats (32/3.8).

It is unfortunate that people are so rude about it, but I'm sure there are people who feel inferior about the school they got into. Sadly these types of people won't be happy with whatever they get: "oh I got into an MD school, but it wasn't top 50, ivy league, etc."
 
It's not just DO schools, I remember some one providing a list of countries that only allow a certain MDs graduating from certain schools to practice in their countries.

Here's an example from one country:
http://www.healthprofessionals.gov.sg/content/dam/hprof/smc/docs/becoming_registered_doctor/Second Schedule - Registrable Basic Medical Qualifications.pdf

Most countries have formidable barriers to protect their own skilled workers, whether it's an electrician or a physician. Try getting a license in France - any professional license.
 
Everybody craps on the thing below them...

Top tier MD craps on low tier MD. Low tier MD craps on DO. DO craps on LUCOM. LUCOM craps on foreign and/or Caribbean. Caribbean craps on Podiatry. Its the unfortunate circle of life on SDN. Whenever I start feeling like the anti-DO bias is becoming too strong and I begin to second guess myself, I go shadow for a day and remember that out in the real world (excluding top tier research medical schools which I wouldnt want to go to anyways) no one gives a crap. Out in the real world people are just trying to make some money, pay the bills, and go home to do things they would prefer to be doing. I dont mean to sound jaded, and I dont mean to say that physicians dont enjoy their jobs and get a lot of satisfaction from them... but in the end, ALL work is just a means to an end.

I have found some great advice on SDN throughout the years. But to describe the pre-allo forums as "fear mongering" is likely an understatement.
 
Top tier MD craps on low tier MD. Low tier MD craps on DO. DO craps on LUCOM. LUCOM craps on foreign and/or Caribbean. Caribbean craps on Podiatry.

This had me actually laughing out loud. You hit the nail on the head.

A lot of those pre-allo posters who are "too good" for DO will be skulking into this forum in about a year harping on about how they randomly did a ton of research on the osteopathic profession and just looooove the DO philosophy, which usually ends in them fishing for answers to the "why DO" question that they can use on their last minute DO apps. This is after they can't gain a MD acceptance, of course. It all really does come full circle it seems.
 
This had me actually laughing out loud. You hit the nail on the head.

A lot of those pre-allo posters who are "too good" for DO will be skulking into this forum in about a year harping on about how they randomly did a ton of research on the osteopathic profession and just looooove the DO philosophy, which usually ends in them fishing for answers to the "why DO" question that they can use on their last minute DO apps. This is after they can't gain a MD acceptance, of course. It all really does come full circle it seems.
Exactly... not even next year. I give it until Jan-Feb region and dozens of them will start flocking this way...
 
I actually love this thread and want to talk about some of these things more with you'd guys instead of the pre allo guys. I got to go to work now but later on I have some questions and comments!

Love pre DO side of things!!! Really should stop going pre allo side of sdn.
 
So I have spent some time on the pre allo forum.

Worst mistake of my life.

Really confirmed my belief of wanting to be a DO and not to have to deal with people who are so full of themselves.

Moving on from that rant I wanted to talk to people over here about some of the stuff we were talking about there as I feel DO people can give a more real and non biased answer.

So I'm gonna start some of the things they fear monger about.

First they seem to question the quality of AOA residencies. Fear mongering or true?

Second they seem to question the ability to do humanitarian aid in third world countrjes as a DO. Based on my research it doesn't seen to be limited. Came across this. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/dos-and-doctors-without-borders.95337/

Fear mongering or accurate.

Any DO residents here wanna comment on getting residencies? This was another fear monger tactic they used.

There were also just plane uncalled for insults but I will leave those out.

I guess I'll just point out one nice little factoid for the pre-DO's. DMU had one of the highest scorers in the country on the USMLE step 1 this past year, per the dean. Yes it is an n=1 and purely anecdotal evidence, take that as you wish.
 
What I try to harp on is that medical schools represent a spectrum with a decent sized overlap between the 2 degrees in the middle. Many of the more established DO schools would provide a similar (if not better) education than the lower ranked MD schools. Some of us are lucky enough to have a state school or multiple state schools and can get in to an MD program relatively easily, while many of my peers from undergrad had to face the barriers of being an OOS applicant and ended up at a DO school. So technically speaking they did go DO because they couldn't get MD, but we're talking about people with very good stats (32/3.8).

It is unfortunate that people are so rude about it, but I'm sure there are people who feel inferior about the school they got into. Sadly these types of people won't be happy with whatever they get: "oh I got into an MD school, but it wasn't top 50, ivy league, etc."

I actually made the same point about DO education quality versus MD. Being that DO schools offer a similar level of education to MD ones.

This actually was one of the things they brought up. They said since AOA doesn't have as high standards as AMA DO schools aren't as good as MD ones.

I think this is horse shiz but does any current DO student want to comment on the quality of your education?
 
I actually made the same point about DO education quality versus MD. Being that DO schools offer a similar level of education to MD ones.

This actually was one of the things they brought up. They said since AOA doesn't have as high standards as AMA DO schools aren't as good as MD ones.

I think this is horse shiz but does any current DO student want to comment on the quality of your education?
And they are correct about that. Up until recently, it was much harder to get a school LCME accredited than COCA accredited.
 
Experiences will vary. However, many DO student's I have met, and docs, are outstanding. At the end of the day, whether you go DO or MD, it's best to go somewhere that you'll be happy and likely to succeed.


Good news- if you're able to gain an acceptance (no easy feat) you don't have to deal with pre-meds haha
 
And they are correct about that. Up until recently, it was much harder to get a school LCME accredited than COCA accredited.
Does LCME require all US/Canada MD schools to have a teaching hospital? I remember one school in PR has their accreditation put on probation because their teaching hospital was going bankrupt... Is it necessary to have a teaching hospital as long as you have 'a' hospital (affiliated or non-affiliated) to send the students to do their rotation? I don't know, but LCME seems to go crazy on these requirements...
 
I actually love this thread and want to talk about some of these things more with you'd guys instead of the pre allo guys. I got to go to work now but later on I have some questions and comments!

Love pre DO side of things!!! Really should stop going pre allo side of sdn.
The only thing I still go over for is Neusu's "ask a neurosurgery resident anything" thread. Thats a great source of interesting information.
 
Does LCME require all US/Canada MD schools to have a teaching hospital? I remember one school in PR has their accreditation put on probation because their teaching hospital was going bankrupt... Is it necessary to have a teaching hospital as long as you have 'a' hospital (affiliated or non-affiliated) to send the students to do their rotation? I don't know, but LCME seems to go crazy on these requirements...
It pretty much was until recently. Medical students did rotations on-site. with teaching hospitals directly adjacent or in the same city. I'm sure that's been relaxed due to societal pressure on lack of doctors, yada, yada. So up until then the LCME did quite a good job on quality control of med schools.
 
Everybody craps on the thing below them...

Top tier MD craps on low tier MD. Low tier MD craps on DO. DO craps on LUCOM. LUCOM craps on foreign and/or Caribbean. Caribbean craps on Podiatry. Its the unfortunate circle of life on SDN. Whenever I start feeling like the anti-DO bias is becoming too strong and I begin to second guess myself, I go shadow for a day and remember that out in the real world (excluding top tier research medical schools which I wouldnt want to go to anyways) no one gives a crap. Out in the real world people are just trying to make some money, pay the bills, and go home to do things they would prefer to be doing. I dont mean to sound jaded, and I dont mean to say that physicians dont enjoy their jobs and get a lot of satisfaction from them... but in the end, ALL work is just a means to an end.

I have found some great advice on SDN throughout the years. But to describe the pre-allo forums as "fear mongering" is likely an understatement.


Why does everyone hate LUCOM? They seem decent to me *shrugs*
 
Why does everyone hate LUCOM? They seem decent to me *shrugs*
Eh, it's not the COM but LU that stirs a lot of heads. Check their wiki and scroll to "controversy".

A medical college probably does not have too much time to dabble in young earth topics, which is one of the reasons I still sent a primary there. Still deciding if it's worth submitting a primary. Of the 30 I applied to, I've received 27 secondaries so am trying to hone down my choices.
 
It's not just DO schools, I remember some one providing a list of countries that only allow a certain MDs graduating from certain schools to practice in their countries. So even MDs are cherry picked. I think when DOs become greater in numbers, then more of these countries will be willing for them to practice in their borders.

Side note: I wouldn't keep going to the pre-allo forums if I were you. They just talk about the most neurotic things. Ex. "Is there a difference between a 3.69 GPA and 3.7 GPA" (times that by ten).

This is a good point. It would be interesting to see more information about this.

I'd say that's true for a significant portion of DO students anymore. As far as MD students being higher caliber, well who knows. That argument is rather boring and based off MCAT/GPA numbers 95% of the time. A fair amount of people like to simplify arguments like that and use it as a foundation for whatever purpose they have. Do yourself a favor, and don't let what some goofy dweeb said bother you. Especially when it's a premed who's arrogance is often only surpassed by their ignorance on select topics.

They act like MD students being higher caliber as a given which is of course nonsense.
Here's an example from one country:
http://www.healthprofessionals.gov.sg/content/dam/hprof/smc/docs/becoming_registered_doctor/Second Schedule - Registrable Basic Medical Qualifications.pdf

Most countries have formidable barriers to protect their own skilled workers, whether it's an electrician or a physician. Try getting a license in France - any professional license.

Bet if I mentioned this on pre allo people's head would explode. The notion there might be barriers to practicing internationally regardless of your degree would certainly make them uncomfortable. They always paint a picture that is overly pessimistic for DOs and a very rosy picture for MDs. Clearly this link shows that's way over simplying things.
Everybody craps on the thing below them...

Top tier MD craps on low tier MD. Low tier MD craps on DO. DO craps on LUCOM. LUCOM craps on foreign and/or Caribbean. Caribbean craps on Podiatry. Its the unfortunate circle of life on SDN. Whenever I start feeling like the anti-DO bias is becoming too strong and I begin to second guess myself, I go shadow for a day and remember that out in the real world (excluding top tier research medical schools which I wouldnt want to go to anyways) no one gives a crap. Out in the real world people are just trying to make some money, pay the bills, and go home to do things they would prefer to be doing. I dont mean to sound jaded, and I dont mean to say that physicians dont enjoy their jobs and get a lot of satisfaction from them... but in the end, ALL work is just a means to an end.

I have found some great advice on SDN throughout the years. But to describe the pre-allo forums as "fear mongering" is likely an understatement.

I may crap on carribean but atleast that's justified. I would never crap on podiatry though mad respect for them. I also just don't like lucom's idealogy.

Experiences will vary. However, many DO student's I have met, and docs, are outstanding. At the end of the day, whether you go DO or MD, it's best to go somewhere that you'll be happy and likely to succeed.


Good news- if you're able to gain an acceptance (no easy feat) you don't have to deal with pre-meds haha

I have had the same experiences. DOs and MDs are equal. I have even had people on the pre allo side say MD and do arent equal. Bogus.

So any resident here that did an AOA residency? Would like to hear from you.
 
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Don't get mad, get even. Get into a residency at Mayo, like KCUMB grads do, or Hopkins or Stanford like TUCOM-CA grads do. My school has sent grads to Mt Sinai, U Chicago, Cleveland Clinic, and tons of state University Medical Centers. We haven't cracked Mass gen or Beth Israel...yet.

I know the thread you're discussing, doc, and I'll just modify my original beliefs that the last bastions of anti-DO prejudice are with elderly MDS, ignorant pre-meds, and some of ignorant residents.

This business of international practice rights is "meh" to be. How many of you are really going to take up practice in Uganda or Bangladesh?

I've seen my kids in action with students from a Top 10 school, and the latter literally didn't know how to talk to or touch a patient.

"Living well is the best revenge"-GB Shaw



They act like they are better then you on there. Very annoying. So many rude comments. Saying stuff like you only go DO if you can't get into MD or MD students are higher caliber.

Just makes me mad.
 
Take this for the little sample size that it is, but I have noticed a Huge difference personality wise in the DOs and MDs I have shadowed. The DOs were extremely engaging and encouraging with me. They all really took the time to get to know me, talk about medicine, what I was interested in, what medical school is like, residency, etc.

The MDs I have shadowed, it was the complete opposite. No smile, no handshake, just told me stand in the corner, and don't touch anything.

Several of the DOs I have shadowed have now become close personal friends of mine. In fact, one DO in particular has basically adopted me into their family. Always inviting me over for dinner and parties. They have become a second family for me since I have none in the region I am currently living in.

Now, are all DOs going to be that nice and welcoming? No. Are all MDs that inhospitable? No. But I think there is def. a different approach in the type of personalities, as a whole, DO schools are attracted to and MD schools are attracted to.


And I go to the Pre-Allo forum for the lulz.

I go to the Pre-DO forum for the knowledge and solid advice.
 
Don't get mad, get even. Get into a residency at Mayo, like KCUMB grads do, or Hopkins or Stanford like TUCOM-CA grads do. My school has sent grads to Mt Sinai, U Chicago, Cleveland Clinic, and tons of state University Medical Centers. We haven't cracked Mass gen or Beth Israel...yet.

I know the thread you're discussing, doc, and I'll just modify my original beliefs that the last bastions of anti-DO prejudice are with elderly MDS, ignorant pre-meds, and some of ignorant residents.

This business of international practice rights is "meh" to be. How many of you are really going to take up practice in Uganda or Bangladesh?

I've seen my kids in action with students from a Top 10 school, and the latter literally didn't know how to talk to or touch a patient.

"Living well is the best revenge"-GB Shaw

Goro this post really pumped me up!! My dad went beth isreal. No doubt that I can also as a DO. I would like to be in a " prestigious" hospital with my DO badge and show up the MD snobs.

Also while its not likely we are to practice in Uganda we are able to provide humanitarian relief there as @GUH mentioned. So why are they denying that.

Goro what's your feeling on AOA residencies?

I also just wanted to mention how awesome and brutatly honest you are.
 
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Take this for the little sample size that it is, but I have noticed a Huge difference personality wise in the DOs and MDs I have shadowed. The DOs were extremely engaging and encouraging with me. They all really took the time to get to know me, talk about medicine, what I was interested in, what medical school is like, residency, etc.

The MDs I have shadowed, it was the complete opposite. No smile, no handshake, just told me stand in the corner, and don't touch anything.

Several of the DOs I have shadowed have now become close personal friends of mine. In fact, one DO in particular has basically adopted me into their family. Always inviting me over for dinner and parties. They have become a second family for me since I have none in the region I am currently living in.

Now, are all DOs going to be that nice and welcoming? No. Are all MDs that inhospitable? No. But I think there is def. a different approach in the type of personalities, as a whole, DO schools are attracted to and MD schools are attracted to.


And I go to the Pre-Allo forum for the lulz.

I go to the Pre-DO forum for the knowledge and solid advice.

I have met nice MDs and nice DOs as well as mean MDs and mean DOs. I think this speak to the individual person but I do think MDs are more full of themselves and DOs are more down to earth. Kinda like an average Joe who has the knowledge of a doctor. Really easy to relate to as a patient IMO.
 
Does LCME require all US/Canada MD schools to have a teaching hospital? I remember one school in PR has their accreditation put on probation because their teaching hospital was going bankrupt... Is it necessary to have a teaching hospital as long as you have 'a' hospital (affiliated or non-affiliated) to send the students to do their rotation? I don't know, but LCME seems to go crazy on these requirements...

FIU is among the new crop of MD schools and does not have its own teaching hospital. Not sure if for better or for worse, but it has a large overlap of rotation sites with neighboring NSUCOM.



I witness DO bashing among students and even from a dean at my school. I try to stand up for DOs when I can; I narrowly turned down a DO acceptance myself.

On the topic of getting residencies, however - looking at the match lists of some brand new MD programs, I see placements that currently seem out of the realm of probability at DO schools, even for the inaugural classes. n=1, but FIU had an MGH Rads match in its first year.
 
FIU is among the new crop of MD schools and does not have its own teaching hospital. Not sure if for better or for worse, but it has a large overlap of rotation sites with neighboring NSUCOM.



I witness DO bashing among students and even from a dean at my school. I try to stand up for DOs when I can; I narrowly turned down a DO acceptance myself.

On the topic of getting residencies, however - looking at the match lists of some brand new MD programs, I see placements that currently seem out of the realm of probability at DO schools, even for the inaugural classes. n=1, but FIU had an MGH Rads match in its first year.
Is your dean a physician? That is weird! You usually see stuff like that from pre-meds and med students... Once people are working side by side with DO, they understand that these criticisms (or bashing) are unwarranted...
 
Is your dean a physician? That is weird! You usually see stuff like that from pre-meds and med students... Once people are working side beside with DO, they understand that these criticisms (or bashing) are unwarranted...

The dean in question is an internist. Perhaps those on the certain academic track to dean-hood are less likely to have had DO colleagues.

To briefly summarize the "bashing":

At a Q&A session, a student asked about the recent GME merger and how MD students may benefit from being able to apply to AOA residencies. The dean's retort, followed by crickets in the audience (paraphrased): "Raise your hand if any of you are interested in applying to a DO residency."
 
One problem is that there are AOA residencies that just aren't up to ACGME or the majority of AOA standards. Not all, but there are some. These situations make AOA residencies look bad in general. Additionally, many students and physicians at top MD programs are interested in academic medicine and AOA residencies (and DO physicians in general) lack that component. That is viewed as making AOA programs sub-standard. I've done research at two major academic programs for different specialties at different institutions both within 2 miles of my school... not a single physician new my school existed. Didn't even know it existed and it is <2 miles away.

While there are programs and specialties open to DOs, there are many, many programs that are not. The vast majority of competitive ACGME residencies (be in location, prestige of institution, or specialty) do not take DOs. This is absolute fact and based on program director surveys and match results. Many pre-meds and med students take this to mean your career is severely limited by going DO. You decide if those programs are important to you and decide if that's a limit or not.

Then, you come into pre-osteo and see students with no real understanding of medical school or the graduate medical process saying DO the exact same. The truth is somewhere in the middle. There are incredible opportunities for DOs in all specialties and there are exceptions everywhere. Pre-allo exaggerates things in a negative light and pre-osteo does the same in the other direction.

The #1 most important thing you can do Day 1 as a DO medical student is realize how the process works, what realistic roadblocks you are about to face, what a top tier MD applicant looks like for residency, and make a plan to get where you want.
 
The dean in question is an internist. Perhaps those on the certain academic track to dean-hood are less likely to have had DO colleagues.

To briefly summarize the "bashing":

At a Q&A session, a student asked about the recent GME merger and how MD students may benefit from being able to apply to AOA residencies. The dean's retort, followed by crickets in the audience (paraphrased): "Raise your hand if any of you are interested in applying to a DO residency."
I am surprised a student would even ask. Most MD's or MD students could care less about the merger issue or the goings-on of DO's in general.

Regarding the merger, I hope the AOA can use their new 28% represention within the ACGME to try and break some barriers for DO students.
 
I am surprised a student would even ask. Most MD's or MD students could care less about the merger issue or the goings-on of DO's in general.

Regarding the merger, I hope the AOA can use their new 28% represention within the ACGME to try and break some barriers for DO students.

I speculate that a large percentage if not the majority of my classmates at a "bottom tier" MD school also applied to DO programs, or at least have friends going to DO programs. Those interested in competitive residencies might especially be interested in the prospect of AOA spots opening to them, being perhaps less competitive than top tier school applicants for ACGME spots in said competitive specialties.
 
One problem is that there are AOA residencies that just aren't up to ACGME or the majority of AOA standards. Not all, but there are some. These situations make AOA residencies look bad in general. Additionally, many students and physicians at top MD programs are interested in academic medicine and AOA residencies (and DO physicians in general) lack that component. That is viewed as making AOA programs sub-standard. I've done research at two major academic programs for different specialties at different institutions both within 2 miles of my school... not a single physician new my school existed. Didn't even know it existed and it is <2 miles away.

While there are programs and specialties open to DOs, there are many, many programs that are not. The vast majority of competitive ACGME residencies (be in location, prestige of institution, or specialty) do not take DOs. This is absolute fact and based on program director surveys and match results. Many pre-meds and med students take this to mean your career is severely limited by going DO. You decide if those programs are important to you and decide if that's a limit or not.

Then, you come into pre-osteo and see students with no real understanding of medical school or the graduate medical process saying DO the exact same. The truth is somewhere in the middle. There are incredible opportunities for DOs in all specialties and there are exceptions everywhere. Pre-allo exaggerates things in a negative light and pre-osteo does the same in the other direction.

The #1 most important thing you can do Day 1 as a DO medical student is realize how the process works, what realistic roadblocks you are about to face, what a top tier MD applicant looks like for residency, and make a plan to get where you want.

Agree with assessment.

1. If you get a chance, rotate through a small community hospital, a large community hospital, and a large academic (university) hospital - not only is the exposure to pathology different, but so is the culture (for better or worse). I think AOA vs ACGME is a red herring - for fields like internal medicine, doing it at a small community hospital vs a large academic hospital will be different. Sure, the "material" will be the same, as well as knowledge expectation - but small community hospitals ship patients to large academic hospitals. The bread-and-butter cases you'll see everywhere - but the more specialized stuff as well as exposure to advances in medicine (bone marrow transplant service, solid organ transplant service, IABP/LVAD/ECMO, etc) help form a more complete physician. An AOA residency at a large hospital (with those services) will provide a more thorough education than an ACGME residency at a small community hospital. Unfortunately a lot of AOA residencies are located at small community hospitals and hence the perception of inferior AOA residencies.

2. Unlike premeds, the public actually don't care for academic pedigree, and there is actual disdain for academic pedigree (why do you think politicians bash their ivy league educated opponents during debates and commercials about their schools, and why do the opponents hide their pedigree?). Only a small percentage of patients will seek out pedigree (e.g., I only want a HMS alumnus, Hopkins residency trained, Cleveland Clinic cardiology fellowship trained, full professor of medicine/cardiology at Mayo Clinic, and holds the MACP designation in addition to FACC, to treat my run-of-the-mill hyperlipidemia). In that case, you can't win (actually, if they don't come to you, trust me, it's a win on your end). On the other hand, how many people have a distrust for "modern medicine" and will turn to naturopaths, chiropractors, rekki practitioners, their grocery clerk who works part time at GNC, the ladies at the perfume counter at Macy's wearing a white coat, etc. Premeds are so obsessed with that "MD" title that they forget the rest of the world don't really hold it to the high alter that they do.

3. The discrimination/hurdle is at the residency, and perhaps fellowship level. It's there. Some places/fields are more prominent. Others not so much. There are some inherit bias against DOs (known vs unknown, since LCME schools are known to PDs, while DO schools, which are popping up like weeds, are unknown), unfamiliarity with COMLEX scores (is a 600 a good score? what about a 700?), inconsistent clinical exposure (all outpatient rotations during 3rd year medical school, having a nurse as surgical preceptors, etc. Some schools are on the ball and have excellent clinical exposure with good affiliation, while others throw you to the wolves). But once you make it pass that hurdle - it really doesn't matter. Once you get in, no one cares if you're a DO or MD. They care if you are a good doctor or not. In private practice, if you can be a good employee/partner and generate revenue (while making the lives of other doctors easier), they don't care about your degree. In academic medicine, there's more academic "snobbery" involved, but they care more about your scholarly activities, ability to bring in grant money, and reputation amongst your scholarly colleagues. There are academic DOs at UCSF (Robert Hendren is a professor and vice-chair of psychiatry), Harvard (Ross Zafonte is an endowed full professor and chairman of PM&R at HMS), Yale (Michael Leslie is an assistant professor of Orthopedics and Rehab), etc. Of course it is a tougher glass ceiling to break, but it is possible.

4. Your stereotypical pre-allo post would be "Help, I'm a 4th year college student with a cGPA of 2.3 and sGPA of 2.1. What can I do to become a doctor, and I don't want to be a DO unless that is the last and only option. Btw, please read my personal statement on how I want to be a doctor because I want to help people". But of course, the pre-osteo post would be "Help, I'm a 4th year college student with a cGPA of 2.3, and a sGPA of 2.1. I just discovered osteopathic medicine and fell in love with its philosophy, its history, and the DOs I will soon meet are nice and friendly, unlike the MD jerks. Quick question since I don't have any google or wikipedia skills - can DOs write prescriptions? Also I want to do dermatology or radiation oncology residency at Harvard Medical School, but I'm afraid the DO degree will stop me (it's gotta be the DO degree, what else could prevent me from that residency). Is that true?" You can't help but laugh sometimes.

Just do your best, whether in undergrad, medical school, residency, fellowship, post-fellowship (eg real job). Live life. Make people better. Make people smile. Do that, and no one will care if you have MD or DO after your name.
 
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The dean in question is an internist. Perhaps those on the certain academic track to dean-hood are less likely to have had DO colleagues.

To briefly summarize the "bashing":

At a Q&A session, a student asked about the recent GME merger and how MD students may benefit from being able to apply to AOA residencies. The dean's retort, followed by crickets in the audience (paraphrased): "Raise your hand if any of you are interested in applying to a DO residency."

Wait until some of your class start gunning for a derm residency, with the pain of the crunch (expanding schools) coming their way, you will slowly start seeing them consider these "inferior" DO derm residencies.
 
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Everybody craps on the thing below them...
Top tier MD craps on low tier MD. Low tier MD craps on DO. DO craps on LUCOM. LUCOM craps on foreign and/or Caribbean. Caribbean craps on Podiatry. Its the unfortunate circle of life on SDN. Whenever I start feeling like the anti-DO bias is becoming too strong and I begin to second guess myself, I go shadow for a day and remember that out in the real world (excluding top tier research medical schools which I wouldnt want to go to anyways) no one gives a crap. Out in the real world people are just trying to make some money, pay the bills, and go home to do things they would prefer to be doing. I dont mean to sound jaded, and I dont mean to say that physicians dont enjoy their jobs and get a lot of satisfaction from them... but in the end, ALL work is just a means to an end.

Nope. Here's the correct order - from the famous janitor thread:

'Definitely Janitor. As you know, the pecking order for life degrees goes: MD > Caribbean MD > African MD > Mexico MD > DeVry University MD > Janitor > DO. The DO will follow you around your whole life and people will always look down on you as a dirty osteopath. You'll never be able to attract a single patient, and DOs can only practice family medicine in the mid-west. As you know, a Janitor opens all doors whereas the DO only slams them. Also, since everyone wants to practice internationally - and will for sure - the DO will only allow you to practice in 5-10 cities in the US where a janitor can clean anywhere. You should also be aware that I know this from shadowing over two physicians, each who told me that this is fact - plus I'm a pre-med and understand the workings of health care. '
- Love, Pre- Med.
 
I currently shadow a cardiothoracic surgeon at Virginia Commonwealth University Hospital. She's a DO. 'Nuff said.
 
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