do med schools distinguish between postbac programs?

[sp2-hybridized]

---

Members do not see this ad.

does anyone know if medschool adcoms really distinguish between postbac programs?

i'm a career changer and am considering the goucher, hopkins, and agnes scott (georgia) programs, but i'm wondering whether it's really worth the effort to apply to the more selective goucher and hopkins programs (especially since they're both more expensive than agnes scott's).

i'm not planning on linking, and i'm sure could get better grades at agnes scott than at the two other programs - ac has smaller classes and professors i can really get to know (which wouldn't be the case at hopkins, it seems) and doesn't seem to have as competitive/insulated a postbac environment goucher does. additionally, agnes scott is much cheaper than the two others (which begs the question - why pay more?)

if med schools are just looking for strong bcpm gpas, good recs, and good volunteer/clinical experiences and really don't care where you do your postbac, then the choice seems clear.

however, if going to hopkins or goucher or one of the more 'prestigious' post programs will actually be of benefit outside of the ego-boost and 'name recognition' factor, then the decision becomes more difficult...

any thoughts? i could use any advice on this.

thanks

 

[NapeSpikes]

Although name recognition does a play a part, a borderline/mediocre gpa from JHU or goucher would probably be equivalent to a good gpa elsewhere. I'm not familiar with Agnes Scott, but if it is a place where you know you can do well and get good LORs, it sounds pretty good. Only other thing is, as you yourself admit, since it may be less rigorous in terms of grading/competition, you really have to nail the mcat to validate your high gpa.

Good luck!

 

[BooMed]

Okay, I actually decided to register just so I could respond to your post. You see, I completed the Agnes Scott Post Bac program last year and (this is just my personal experience) it was TERRIBLE. As in maddening, boring, bureaucratic and... well I'll try to describe it. And I'm still $23,000 in debt afterwards, with a huge private loan gathering 6% interest as we speak, because the financial aid office messed up my application and wouldn't give me any Stafford loans... Not to mention the office guy once literally looked down on the floor and found a check they were supposed to give me SIX months before and had lost... but I digress.

Here's the thing. I grew up in the Northwest, attended a state school and only decided to go into medicine about 1 1/2 years ago. I chose Agnes Scott because my fiancé and I were moving to Atlanta, I thought it would have small classes with awesome professors that would know me well, blah blah blah. And to some extent that was true--I did absolutely LOVE my orgo prof, and even though my physics prof was completely senile and couldn't remember what he'd been doing five minutes before I still loved him because he was sweet and adorable (neither of which helped me on the MCAT), but the bio classes...

First of all let me say that biology is my favorite "pre med" science and something I'd never had trouble with before and I still did great in the classes but it was NINE MONTHS OF PULLING TEETH AND HERDING CATS. One of the profs literally talked to the class as though we were 5 years old, would not allow us to go to the bathroom during an 1 1/2 hour class (I mean come on, at a women's college?!) and continuously bragged about her son who had just gotten into med school. And forget about getting to know any of the bio profs, because they switch four times during the year. Picture 45 obsessive pre-med students constantly trying to get the attention of one bored professor (who really just wants to go up to the lab to work on his prospects for publication anyway) and you'll probably get what I mean.

One of the guys, though an amazing comedian in the classroom, had some kind of weird social disorder where he couldn't talk or even look at people outside of class. I'm not kidding. And if you did try to talk to him, or dare to ask a question about a concept or homework problem, he would actually get ANGRY. The one time I made the mistake of going to him for help he refused to listen to my inquiry, asked if I was a freshman (I'm 22), then actually called me "slow" with a "steeper hill to climb." I mean, seriously, even if that was true, how could you say that to somebody? And I had a 98% average on his tests! I eventually started crying and for the rest of the year he turned bright red every time he saw me.

Okay, I know this is long and I'm not a bitter or angry person and maybe I just didn't fit in to the Southern lifestyle or what but that school was just so weird in ways! And all of the other post-bacs thought so too. I mean, we were all older students from other schools (some with masters degrees, a nurse, etc.) and we were always just going "is this the most insane place you have ever been?!" Like, at one point the nurse and I basically taught the entire section on labor and delivery during a bio class because the professor couldn't answer anyone's questions, and then when we took the final all that stuff was on there! And the questions had typos!

Anyway, I have a lot of things I could complain about but I'll spare you. Here's my advice. Go somewhere else. Anywhere else. But here's the crazy thing--as you know, a lot of post-bac programs are more expensive than a year of med school, and they take forever. If I could go back and do it again, I would have done my state school's post-bac program for a mere three grand, and in one year. No, it would not be prestigious, but in my particular case, the courses at my school were just SO much better, I would have gotten just as good of grades but I would not have gone mad with frustration in the meantime. I think it's good to do a structured program, but I don't know how much it matters where you go. Focus your energy on doing well, studying for the MCAT, getting solid clinical experience and building relationships with LOR writers. And if you can do all that at an Ivy League school, well go for it! But keep in mind that when it comes down to it, your scores get you in the door, but it's your heart, dedication and maturity that will distinguish you from the pack, not where you did your post-bac program. 😳

 

[sp2-hybridized]

napesikes and boomed - really appreciate your responses.

boomed - just a few things:
thanks for registering to reply. very interesting post. i've also heard really bad things about agnes scott's financial aid office, but i won't hold that against them because their program is actually cheaper than the other two i'm considering ...

so for me, it's more a question of whether going to a big name postbac program will make any difference in my competitiveness as a med school applicant OR - to put it another way - whether going to a less-recognized program will prevent me from being a really strong applicant.

your post definitely puts the agnes scott program into perspective, though. i'm really surprised to hear about the classes and professors - were you at least able to get some good letters of recommendation?

also, do you feel like the classes (that were actually taught by sane/competent professors) prepared you well for the mcats?

i know they've hired a new postbac director (i think she was hired late last year), and she might have been brought in to fix the program (i know she's planning on offering an mcat course during the year).

that may not make much of a difference, though, especially if the overall quality of education you received there wasn't as strong as you hoped.

because i'm from the atlanta, i'd only turn down agnes scott and head out of state for post bac if (1) going to a big name program will make a difference with adcoms OR if (2) attending the agnes scott program won't make me a very competitive applicant.

there are definite downsides to each of the other programs i'm considering - for instance, some negatives associated with going to a school like hopkins: i'll have to move away from home/parents/family, my bcpm gpa will probably be mediocre at best (fighting for A's with hopkins undergrad premeds doesn't seem so appealing), i'll have a harder time building solid relationships with profs because of the huge class sizes and the lack of direct interaction with students, and i'll have accumulated a greater amount of debt, on account of the higher tuition and housing fees, than if i had stayed in-state (in georgia).

so - given those negatives and balancing those negatives with some of the negative experiences you had during your post bac - would you still recommend that i go someplace other than agnes scott?

it's such a weird decision - i'm definitely going a little crazy trying to figure out what to do, and i could use any advice that i can get...

 

[Phoenix.]

In general, it seems that a lot of medical schools don't really care where you take your prereqs. At least that's the sense i've gotten. I spoke to adcoms at Northwestern and Loyola med schools, and both said that it made absolutely no difference to them whatsoever where I took my prereqs, so long as it was at an accredited college/univ, and that I did very well. I recently had an appointment with a pre-med advisor at the University of Michigan and asked her the same question. She said that the head of the U of M med school adcom tells prospective non-traditional applicants that if they think they can get better grades taking their prereqs at Eastern Michigan rather than at the U of M, they should take them at Eastern Michigan, and that the U of M med school couldn't care less either.

However, it is a good idea to go to a school that has at least some good support for med school applicants. I like that Loyola's prehealth committee will write a LOR for applicants, and otherwise help/advise in the process. But the benefit to one of the really structured programs (like Bryn Mawr, Goucher, etc.), is that they're completely invested in getting all of their students into med school (so that they can justify their high tuition rates with their success in placing students in med schools), and thus will be much more active in lining up great volunteer and research opportunities for their students so that they stand out and succeed as applicants.

Since I've decided that I'm pretty much set on taking my prereqs locally at Loyola rather than applying to Bryn Mawr's stellar program, I've already set up an ER volunteer position to start in two weeks, and will just have to work hard to find some research opportunities here (I'm sure it would be much easier at a more structured program). But if any postbac program had a linkage program with a Chicago area med school, I'd be there in a heartbeat. Pity there isn't one.

I would suggest picking out three schools you're considering taking your prereqs at, and try to find some students to talk to who are there doing a premed postbac program right now (or completed one), or do searches in this forum. They should be able to give some specific feedback on programs. Best of luck!

 

[BooMed]

Well, here is some more info. to help you make your decision: the post-bac program is very small, although of course the school itself is too. I guess that drove me a little nuts—going from a huge (20,000 plus), fun, happening campus to Agnes Scott, which literally has 1,000 students (none of them graduate students) and all of them women, was a huge shock. I guess most of all the attitude of the people I met was so different… like, most of the girls were really sheltered and wealthy, but that sounds so terrible and it wasn’t unbearable, it was just different. I don’t mean to sound stuck up at all, it’s more that I’ve had a hard time moving to the South and being homesick and trying to fit in, and my time at ASC was in the middle of that feeling, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, the point is that what you really want to do is buckle down, get those pre-reqs out of the way and rock your application, right? Well you can definitely do that at ASC. Here is the interesting thing: the year before my class there were six people in the program, and I happen to know that four of them made 4.0s. Of those four, two girls (both of who took the MCAT in August!) had amazing MCAT scores—in the high 30’s, low 40’s. They both got into Harvard, Mayo, Emory, Yale etc. So it is totally possible to get into a great school from ASC. Of course, both of those girls were really, really, really smart. The one who got into Harvard literally taught herself Organic Chemistry over winter break. 😱 So I’m not sure if I’d compare myself to her. But if you do well in your classes and score well on the MCAT… well that’s what counts.

Here was my class’s situation… there were about 15 of us… and we just seemed to have a lot more trouble. I mean, I finished the program with only one B+ and the rest A’s, but I killed myself to do it. And a lot of my friends were… failing. Like to the point where I don’t know if they will be able to recover. Granted the material is dense, you’re studying for the MCAT at the same time, and it’s way more time than anyone should ever spend in labs… but there is just something strange about the school. It’s like they don’t fire people who are incompetent, whether it’s in the financial aid office or the classroom. Like, my organic chem lab instructor would actually talk on his cell phone during lab time. Then the next semester the lab guy was so anal I would literally spend 20 hours writing a 15 page lab report complete with these amazing structures and reactions… and get an 87% on it for not labeling diagrams like he liked. I mean it just didn’t make any sense. And the school is so small that you don’t have any choice really of who to take things from.

I did get LORs, but you know the ones that I am most comfortable with are the ones from my undergraduate school. My ASC physics prof wouldn’t use a computer (all of the handouts, labs and tests were handwritten in cursive and then photocopied—we would spend an hour in lab just trying to figure out what the heck we were supposed to do) so he was out, and so many of the bio profs were crazy that the poor organic teacher was asked by every single student. There is a major problem with the way the bio profs are rotated—particularly for post-bacs, who are only there for a year and need to build up solid relationships quickly. There might have been time for this in lab, except for that many of the bio labs are run by student assistants, and the profs take off for the day.

Well that’s a lot of negative stuff, but I’m not making it up and maybe not everyone was as miserable as me it’s just that I’m a really good student and I love school and I have never hated a biology course before ASC…

But on the bright side: yes, they did hire two people to be in charge of the program, and it will definitely help. Last year was their first year so they were mainly learning about it and all, but I have the feeling they will make it better. They are super dedicated and always around and willing to do pretty much anything. Last year they organized MCAT review sessions every Friday during which professors lectured for 2 or so hours about various topics and problem solving techniques. And I have to say I only went to about ¼ of those lectures because by the time Friday evening arrived (we were all also taking Kaplan night courses for six hours a week and all day Saturday practice tests) I simply couldn’t bear any more. I mean, maybe the problem is doing it all in a year, but I was impatient.

As far as the actual classes preparing you… I guess I don’t really know if they do normally. Not being a science major, and taking the MCAT before being done with the last month or so of classes, and starting the Kaplan review halfway into the year so I had NO idea what was going on in the beginning… well it was kind of a shot in the dark for me. Physical sciences especially just killed me, but it probably would have no matter where I went. What I found is that the way the MCAT asks questions is very different from the way the information is taught, so for me I had to focus on making the connection between those two styles.

But I totally understand your concerns about money and moving and all that, and for that reason I would probably say that ASC is a good choice, crazy as that may sound. If Atlanta is where your family, friends and home are, by all means take advantage of it. And really, you might have a completely different experience there—being from the South and knowing Atlanta and not being completely homesick all of the time definitely would have made the year easier for me.

And probably the most important thing to think about is whether you want to do it all in a year—do you have any of the reqs done already? To get A’s I worked very, very hard pretty much constantly. I mean, it kind of helped that I had no friends or money because there were many days when I came home from school at 5 p.m. and studied until I fell asleep. I mean, I moved here with my fiancé and we actually had dates where I would bring my books to dinner and read until the food came. It’s just a lot to do that much science all at once.

Okay, this is the longest thing I’ve ever written. If you haven’t gone crazy/fallen asleep 😴 reading this, tell me more about your situation/plans. Are you entering a program this August? What’s your time frame? Do you know where you want to go to school? Etc. etc. 😛

 

[Law2Doc]

does anyone know if medschool adcoms really distinguish between postbac programs?

i'm a career changer and am considering the goucher, hopkins, and agnes scott (georgia) programs, but i'm wondering whether it's really worth the effort to apply to the more selective goucher and hopkins programs (especially since they're both more expensive than agnes scott's).

i'm not planning on linking, and i'm sure could get better grades at agnes scott than at the two other programs - ac has smaller classes and professors i can really get to know (which wouldn't be the case at hopkins, it seems) and doesn't seem to have as competitive/insulated a postbac environment goucher does. additionally, agnes scott is much cheaper than the two others (which begs the question - why pay more?)

if med schools are just looking for strong bcpm gpas, good recs, and good volunteer/clinical experiences and really don't care where you do your postbac, then the choice seems clear.

however, if going to hopkins or goucher or one of the more 'prestigious' post programs will actually be of benefit outside of the ego-boost and 'name recognition' factor, then the decision becomes more difficult...

any thoughts? i could use any advice on this.

thanks

I didn't read through all of these super long posts on this thread so I apologize if this was already said. But when I was looking at postbacs, I was advised (by an adcom person) that some of the more formal ones (in particular Bryn M., Goucher and Tufts) were better if you could get into one, as the program directors actually had a good rapport with med school deans and would periodically go meet with the dean to promote their students (something the less formal or less prestigious postbac programs were unable to do effectively). I ended up not going to one of those programs and still did fine, but I suspect they have their advantages above and beyond the classwork.

 

[Tigger27]

Just wanted to reply with my 2cents...

I also completed the Agnes Scott program (2003-2004). I LOVED IT! I guess I just had a totally different experience from the earlier poster who attended this past year. I loved all of my professors and felt that they truly were interested in helping as much as they could. I also learned A LOT, although I worked my butt off. I took some extra optional classes, too - in addition to the bios, physics, orgo and chem (I added calculus and biochem). I felt very prepared for the MCAT, too. I was able to do well (4.0), but only because I worked my tail off harder than I ever did as an undergrad - the material is not spoon-fed to you, but you can definitly do well if you try. Some professors definitely have their own unique personalities (I laughed during one of the above post because I could tell exactly which teachers were being dicusssed) - but you just accept them for who they are and learn how to get along with various individuals - life will always be full of such challenges. The best part of the program for me was the supportive environment I felt from the other post-bacs...we were definitely out to help each other out. I still keep in touch with many of my profs, too.

The biggest weakness of the program to me was the financial aid office and the relatively new nature of the program - they have a new director (haven't met her except for a couple mins) and are still working out kinks.

Anyways, since there have been so many negative comments, I just wanted to post that I had an INCREDIBLY positive experience with the program. Also, to answer the OP's original question, nearly every med school I interviewed at had heard of ASC and held it in high esteem. I had multiple acceptances and will be starting at Emory on July 20. (eek!)

Good luck!

 

[njbmd]

Although name recognition does a play a part, a borderline/mediocre gpa from JHU or goucher would probably be equivalent to a good gpa elsewhere. I'm not familiar with Agnes Scott, but if it is a place where you know you can do well and get good LORs, it sounds pretty good. Only other thing is, as you yourself admit, since it may be less rigorous in terms of grading/competition, you really have to nail the mcat to validate your high gpa.

Good luck!

Hi there,
If you do a post bacc anywhere, do not get "borderline/mediocre" grades. If you get into a post bacc, you have to do well. Name recognition does carry some weight but only if you are doing well enough to be considered for medical school admissions in the first place. If you are a poor student, it does not matter if you are a poor student at Hopkins or Harvard, you are not going to get very far.

Post bacc programs pride themselves on how many people can successfully navigate their programs and gain admission into medical school. These programs are expensive so be sure that you are getting the most for your tuition dollar. Go to the program where you feel that you can have the best chance at getting good grades and preparing for the MCAT. If you can get into a program that has a linkage, so much the better but do not kid yourself into thinking that the "name" of your school is going to get you anywhere if you do not get the grades.

njbmd 🙂

 

[sp2-hybridized]

thanks for all the really great advice.

tigger27 - i appreciate your perspective - definitely gives me a more balanced understanding of the agnes scott program.

now that i've heard from agnes scott folks, i am curious to hear about hopkins from some insiders -

just throwing this out there - i might have to start a new thread for this one, but does anyone have any thoughts on the hopkins postbac? (good bad ugly - anything at all)

some questions i have for hopkins postbacs (or anyone who has some inside info):

- was it difficult to develop strong relationships with professors / get solid letters of recommendations from profs who actually KNOW you? or was it a struggle to stand out among the sea of undergrad premeds at the school?

- how supportive is the postbac staff/director? do they actively help postbacs become as successful applicants as possible? or are they hands-off unless you come to them?

- did you find the fact that classes were stretched out over a year and 2 summers to be helpful? or did you come out of it thinking that it was just a way for the school to get more $$$ from unsuspecting students?

- considering postbacs are thrown into 300+ lectures, were the classes difficult? were the students ultra-competitive?

- is it very difficult/near impossible to get A's in your classes (especially in my favorite subject, physics)? are grades curved to restrict A's to only a tiny% of the class?

- if you're a hopkins postbac 'alum,' would you say, looking back, that the program was totally worth the $30,000+ you spent (especially considering you could've done the classes elsewhere, for much much less) and that you'd make the same decision again?

thanks again to everyone for helping me out.

 

[BooMed]

I'm so glad that Tigger had a good experience! It's funny how two people can go through the same thing and see it completely differently. I think a lot of my misery had to do with being new to the South. I don't hate nearly as many people now that I've been here a year and a half! (Just kidding)

I experienced some competition in my class too that made me sort of miserable... I'd never met any pre-meds before... 😉

 

[NapeSpikes]

Hi there,
If you do a post bacc anywhere, do not get "borderline/mediocre" grades. If you get into a post bacc, you have to do well. Name recognition does carry some weight but only if you are doing well enough to be considered for medical school admissions in the first place. If you are a poor student, it does not matter if you are a poor student at Hopkins or Harvard, you are not going to get very far.

Post bacc programs pride themselves on how many people can successfully navigate their programs and gain admission into medical school. These programs are expensive so be sure that you are getting the most for your tuition dollar. Go to the program where you feel that you can have the best chance at getting good grades and preparing for the MCAT. If you can get into a program that has a linkage, so much the better but do not kid yourself into thinking that the "name" of your school is going to get you anywhere if you do not get the grades.

njbmd 🙂

True, true. But by "borderline/mediocre," GPA at a "prestigious" postbac program, I meant a 3.4-3.5ish range. Like njbmd implied, anything below that would not be good in terms of admissions, regardless of the name of the program.

 

[drozycki]

So I have applied to a few post bacc programs, gotten in to a few thus far (including Agnes Scott), but I had a questions about taking courses elsewhere.

I would like to start the program in the Summer so that I can finish in one year, however, one of the programs only starts in the Fall. Would it be a good/bad/indifferent idea to try to take courses (e.g. gen chem 1 and 2), so that I would essentially be starting in the summer and would be able to finish in a year.

Any input would be more than appreciated. Thanks!