DO or SGU? Need to Decide Quick!

[DazedNConfused9]

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Hi,

I don’t intend to strike a flame war here, but I do have a serious question that I hope someone can offer me feedback on. I was accepted to two osteopathic schools here in the states, and waitlisted at two others – the one I was originally planning to attend, I’ve already paid my deposit for. Up until now, I was all set to venture out and start looking for housing, that is until I received my acceptance to St. George’s University.

As you can see from my name, I am very confused about what to do right now. I’ve already tried to rate the pro’s and con’s of each, but I still cannot decide completely. The bad thing is that I need to turn in my SGU deposit by tomorrow morning so that it reach there by the 29th of April (it’s $1000.00).

From my own perspective, I would rather go to the DO school, since it is close to home, has modern facilities, small class sizes, the rotations are done locally, the attrition rate is nearly zero, and it is becoming more widely accepted nowadays, especially with the new schools that are opening up. I talked to a program directory of an internal medicine residency in my area, as well as a plastic surgeon, and both told me to stay in the states. The PD specifically told me that his program does not look at IMG’s at all, but they would accept a DO any day, and that he nor anyone else considers them less qualified than their MD counterparts.

What I am concerned about, and I know this may sound superficial to some of you, but I am concerned about the stigma from patients or other professionals that don’t know any better, as well as the fact that the DO degree is not recognized outside the United States, with the exception of 40 countries or so. I doubt I will ever practice internationally, but I think it would be very unfair to work that hard to not be recognized outside of your own country, or to be confused with the European osteopaths that are not physicians. Although I believe in OMM and have seen it work, I also think that learning OMM would take away time from my other studies, and I may end up in a specialty in which I will never use it. I also do not want to learn craniosacral therapy, as it has been continually refuted by other medical professionals and very much scrutinized even within the DO profession. Other things include having to take more board exams (COMLEX + USMLE), and also that I do not want to partake in the AOA Match, despite the notion that it gives graduates better residency opportunities. As far as I am concerned, the consensus is that that the AOA needs to increase the quality of its graduate medical education programs.

So, naturally, some of you must be saying to yourself by now, why doesn’t this person just go to SGU then? Well, I have no qualms about the quality of an SGU education, but as a person who has never stepped foot into an undergraduate dorm or lived off-campus, I am awfully concerned about the living conditions there. I know that living in Grenada would not be like living in a resort, but I keep hearing about how quality goods are hard to obtain on the island, the locals appear to be somewhat lazy and fail to do their jobs properly, such as taking 2 hours to make a burger or the bus drivers taking breaks whenever they want to, many of shopkeepers often raise the prices of goods as soon as they see an SGU student, everything that comes into the country is taxed (sometimes heavily) by the customs officers, the locals carry machetes, and the entire island, even the campus dorms, swarms of numerous insects, spiders, palmetto bugs, roaches, and the likes, something of which I heavily despise. Other minor things include the large class sizes (300+), and the notion that the SGU USMLE pass rate could be skewed due to attrition or largely decelerations; they maintain that the attrition rate is less than 10% however. Also, the dorms are awfully cramped for the first term (mandatory on-campus housing), and the idea of watching cable, getting on the internet, or listening to some radio stations like back at home, are pretty much gone (unless you want to dish out a lot of money per month).

I know this post is really long, and I am sorry about that, but I am looking for some advice or opinions that I hope some of you may be able to offer me. I would really be grateful for any feedback! Thank you so much for taking the time to read this.

 

[DrBowtie]

I think the stigma of an IMG is far worse than that of a DO.

 

[bmwrob]

Hi,

I don’t intend to strike a flame war here, but I do have a serious question that I hope someone can offer me feedback on. I was accepted to two osteopathic schools here in the states, and waitlisted at two others – the one I was originally planning to attend, I’ve already paid my deposit for. Up until now, I was all set to venture out and start looking for housing, that is until I received my acceptance to St. George’s University.

As you can see from my name, I am very confused about what to do right now. I’ve already tried to rate the pro’s and con’s of each, but I still cannot decide completely. The bad thing is that I need to turn in my SGU deposit by tomorrow morning so that it reach there by the 29th of April (it’s $1000.00).

From my own perspective, I would rather go to the DO school, since it is close to home, has modern facilities, small class sizes, the rotations are done locally, the attrition rate is nearly zero, and it is becoming more widely accepted nowadays, especially with the new schools that are opening up. I talked to a program directory of an internal medicine residency in my area, as well as a plastic surgeon, and both told me to stay in the states. The PD specifically told me that his program does not look at IMG’s at all, but they would accept a DO any day, and that he nor anyone else considers them less qualified than their MD counterparts.

What I am concerned about, and I know this may sound superficial to some of you, but I am concerned about the stigma from patients or other professionals that don’t know any better, as well as the fact that the DO degree is not recognized outside the United States, with the exception of 40 countries or so. I doubt I will ever practice internationally, but I think it would be very unfair to work that hard to not be recognized outside of your own country, or to be confused with the European osteopaths that are not physicians. Although I believe in OMM and have seen it work, I also think that learning OMM would take away time from my other studies, and I may end up in a specialty in which I will never use it. I also do not want to learn craniosacral therapy, as it has been continually refuted by other medical professionals and very much scrutinized even within the DO profession. Other things include having to take more board exams (COMLEX + USMLE), and also that I do not want to partake in the AOA Match, despite the notion that it gives graduates better residency opportunities. As far as I am concerned, the consensus is that that the AOA needs to increase the quality of its graduate medical education programs.

So, naturally, some of you must be saying to yourself by now, why doesn’t this person just go to SGU then? Well, I have no qualms about the quality of an SGU education, but as a person who has never stepped foot into an undergraduate dorm or lived off-campus, I am awfully concerned about the living conditions there. I know that living in Grenada would not be like living in a resort, but I keep hearing about how quality goods are hard to obtain on the island, the locals appear to be somewhat lazy and fail to do their jobs properly, such as taking 2 hours to make a burger or the bus drivers taking breaks whenever they want to, many of shopkeepers often raise the prices of goods as soon as they see an SGU student, everything that comes into the country is taxed (sometimes heavily) by the customs officers, the locals carry machetes, and the entire island, even the campus dorms, swarms of numerous insects, spiders, palmetto bugs, roaches, and the likes, something of which I heavily despise. Other minor things include the large class sizes (300+), and the notion that the SGU USMLE pass rate could be skewed due to attrition or largely decelerations; they maintain that the attrition rate is less than 10% however. Also, the dorms are awfully cramped for the first term (mandatory on-campus housing), and the idea of watching cable, getting on the internet, or listening to some radio stations like back at home, are pretty much gone (unless you want to dish out a lot of money per month).

I know this post is really long, and I am sorry about that, but I am looking for some advice or opinions that I hope some of you may be able to offer me. I would really be grateful for any feedback! Thank you so much for taking the time to read this.

Stay in the states. I have a friend who is a first year at SGU and he was trying to find a way to get out and come back since day 1. Everything you wrote about the school I've already heard from him. If you truly care about helping people lead a healthy life (as I know you do) then all of those things that you listed about DO shouldn't matter. In the end the decision is yours, but IMO you should at least stay in the states. If that means taking this year off and re-applying only to MD schools next year, then do that. Good luck in your decision.

 

[frank51]

Just out of curiosity, which D.O schools did you apply to?

 

[PREMED0615]

Hi,

I don’t intend to strike a flame war here, but I do have a serious question that I hope someone can offer me feedback on. I was accepted to two osteopathic schools here in the states, and waitlisted at two others – the one I was originally planning to attend, I’ve already paid my deposit for. Up until now, I was all set to venture out and start looking for housing, that is until I received my acceptance to St. George’s University.

As you can see from my name, I am very confused about what to do right now. I’ve already tried to rate the pro’s and con’s of each, but I still cannot decide completely. The bad thing is that I need to turn in my SGU deposit by tomorrow morning so that it reach there by the 29th of April (it’s $1000.00).

From my own perspective, I would rather go to the DO school, since it is close to home, has modern facilities, small class sizes, the rotations are done locally, the attrition rate is nearly zero, and it is becoming more widely accepted nowadays, especially with the new schools that are opening up. I talked to a program directory of an internal medicine residency in my area, as well as a plastic surgeon, and both told me to stay in the states. The PD specifically told me that his program does not look at IMG’s at all, but they would accept a DO any day, and that he nor anyone else considers them less qualified than their MD counterparts.

What I am concerned about, and I know this may sound superficial to some of you, but I am concerned about the stigma from patients or other professionals that don’t know any better, as well as the fact that the DO degree is not recognized outside the United States, with the exception of 40 countries or so. I doubt I will ever practice internationally, but I think it would be very unfair to work that hard to not be recognized outside of your own country, or to be confused with the European osteopaths that are not physicians. Although I believe in OMM and have seen it work, I also think that learning OMM would take away time from my other studies, and I may end up in a specialty in which I will never use it. I also do not want to learn craniosacral therapy, as it has been continually refuted by other medical professionals and very much scrutinized even within the DO profession. Other things include having to take more board exams (COMLEX + USMLE), and also that I do not want to partake in the AOA Match, despite the notion that it gives graduates better residency opportunities. As far as I am concerned, the consensus is that that the AOA needs to increase the quality of its graduate medical education programs.

So, naturally, some of you must be saying to yourself by now, why doesn’t this person just go to SGU then? Well, I have no qualms about the quality of an SGU education, but as a person who has never stepped foot into an undergraduate dorm or lived off-campus, I am awfully concerned about the living conditions there. I know that living in Grenada would not be like living in a resort, but I keep hearing about how quality goods are hard to obtain on the island, the locals appear to be somewhat lazy and fail to do their jobs properly, such as taking 2 hours to make a burger or the bus drivers taking breaks whenever they want to, many of shopkeepers often raise the prices of goods as soon as they see an SGU student, everything that comes into the country is taxed (sometimes heavily) by the customs officers, the locals carry machetes, and the entire island, even the campus dorms, swarms of numerous insects, spiders, palmetto bugs, roaches, and the likes, something of which I heavily despise. Other minor things include the large class sizes (300+), and the notion that the SGU USMLE pass rate could be skewed due to attrition or largely decelerations; they maintain that the attrition rate is less than 10% however. Also, the dorms are awfully cramped for the first term (mandatory on-campus housing), and the idea of watching cable, getting on the internet, or listening to some radio stations like back at home, are pretty much gone (unless you want to dish out a lot of money per month).

I know this post is really long, and I am sorry about that, but I am looking for some advice or opinions that I hope some of you may be able to offer me. I would really be grateful for any feedback! Thank you so much for taking the time to read this.

Hey whatever you decided to do, please let me know. I'm in a similar position. I have taken my MCATS and didn't get the score that i desired. I have an interview at SGU, and i'm pretty sure that i would get in. If i do get in, should i go, or give the MCATS another shot and see what the outcome is before i decide?

 

[Skip Intro]

Well, sad to see that some negative perceptions still flourish, especially given the fact that the OP didn't want to start a flame war. So, I'll refrain. The fact is that, provided you work hard and stay focused, you'll do well if you go either route. But...

From my own perspective, I would rather go to the DO school, since it is close to home, has modern facilities, small class sizes, the rotations are done locally, the attrition rate is nearly zero, and it is becoming more widely accepted nowadays, especially with the new schools that are opening up.

... sounds like you already made up your mind. Good luck.

🙂

-Skip Intro
MS4 Ross University
Soon to be...
PGY1: Prelim Medicine
PGY2-4: Anesthesiology
(both university-based programs)

 

[stomper627]

Hmm....
tough decisions, I guess, but from what youve described its basically...."what others think" issues.
I cannot answer anything about the SGU issues, but as far as your DO issues go....
1. If a pt. doesnt believe that Im a real doctor....they can be treated by the nurse in the ED.
2. Have some self esteem. Does it really matter what someone 3000 miles away thinks?
3. If you really think that the 2-3 hrs of OMM/week takes from your other studies (mind you A LOT of it is like massage.....very relaxing and if feels good) then you really need to learn how to get some time management skills.
4. Cranial....Im not a huge fan, cant say Ive ever felt the rhythm, but I did enjoy the naps everyweek during lab 🙂
5. You dont have to take both sets of boards....I would only recommend the USMLE if you are going into an Ubercompetitive ACGME residency....otherwise the COMLEX is just fine.
6. If you dont want to enter the AOA match.....dont. There is no law that says you have to
7. Similar to 6, if you dont want to do an AOA internship...dont. You only "need" it in 5 states, and those can be petitioned even if you choose not too.
8. Outside of the Premed world (and even a little in the preclinical medical school years) there is almost no anti-DO feeling among attendings.

Again, I cannot say anything for SGU. I only know that I rotated with a few Ross students, and they were fine students. Now where they matched for residencies??? I cannot say.
These are things you must weigh....not anyone else....
good luck and keep us posted....
stomper

 

[DOctorJay]

you will always have a better chance at getting the residency you want as a US medical student.

-J

 

[Bill Lumbergh]

i actually had to make this decision this year and i chose to go to SGU, but based on your post, i would recommend that you go the DO route. you've clearly researched both options and ended up listing several positives for DO, but nearly none for SGU while listing several of the reasons why you don't want to go there. i'm looking forward to the experience of living in Grenada so that makes SGU a good match for me, but if you're apprehensive about it, it's probably better that you stay in the states.

you sound like you're close to choosing DO, but you just need your fears allayed, so i'll address the following negatives about DO you mentioned:

the DO stigma:

you may be asked once in a while by patients what a DO is and have to deal with the skeptical looks as you explain it. this actually was partly why i chose SGU, but i was never truly convinced about OMM and you are, so you would probably do a better job of fielding these questions than i. in the end, it probably won't matter what the patient thinks of a DO and you can help remove the DO stigma from patients by performing your duties competently. i doubt that you'll be treated with disrespect by your colleagues/fellow physicians so often for being a DO that it should factor into your decision. if they act that way, then that person is probably an arrogant bastard and would have treated you with disrespect no matter where you went to school.

international recognition:

you stated that you'll probably never practice internationally, so this shouldn't be a factor. do you really want the opinions of people who you will never meet, never treat, and who live in a completely different society with different interests factor into such a big decision in your life?

taking comlex and applying for AOA match:

you don't have to if you don't want. you can take just the usmle and apply for only allopathic residencies.

i'll defend my future school by saying that you'll get a great education and a great experience there, but i really do think that DO is appropriate for you. good luck with your decision!

 

[skypilot]

Hi,

From my own perspective, I would rather go to the DO school, since it is close to home, has modern facilities, small class sizes, the rotations are done locally, the attrition rate is nearly zero, and it is becoming more widely accepted nowadays, especially with the new schools that are opening up. I talked to a program directory of an internal medicine residency in my area, as well as a plastic surgeon, and both told me to stay in the states. The PD specifically told me that his program does not look at IMG’s at all, but they would accept a DO any day, and that he nor anyone else considers them less qualified than their MD counterparts.

Sounds like you have already made up your mind. From the patients perspective, most have no idea what a D.O. is. Most have no idea that they are already seeing a D.O. and most when they find out their doctor is a D.O., think that it is some sort of subspecialty of the M.D. pathway. So don't worry about that at all.

 

[medicine1]

Be strong, and reflect on who you really are.
Don't let people scare you.
'There is nothing to fear, but fear itself.'
Roosevelt

American Osteopathic physicians do work outside the country and are recognized as physicians (http://www.freep.com/voices/sunday/davies23e_20050123.htm, U.S. Military, etc.). You have more options (you don't have to take both the USMLE and COMLEX), sometimes to do the right thing, you will have to face ignorance (we are doctors, and must help teach, educate, and disseminate information about our profession), and OMM and Musculoskeletal massage, and manipulation, and bone adjustments are extra therapies that help people return to 'wellness'. Don't let fallacious language confuse you and deter you from becoming an Osteopathic physician. And remember that Ignorance is arrogance.
If you want to do research, do research. Why not?
Are you limited? Probably not. You can always go into a D.O./Ph.D. program.

 

[Fusion]

First off, I do not think you need to worry too much about sending your deposit to SGU by April 29. You can always ask for another week or two to get the funds together, which would give you more time to decide. In all likelihood, they will contact you several times before rescinding your acceptance. Don't rush to send the money.

I have had several friends go to SGU and all of them have gotten residencies here. If you have developed your study skills and are self-disciplined, you will have no problems in medical school, whether MD or DO. The fact that you have gotten into more than one med school indicates that people believe in your aptitude. The problem with some offshore schools is that they accept some ppl who are academic risks (ie, they know that they will not make it). These schools give you the opportunity to become a doctor, but if someone doesn't know how to study, they will not survive. You will do fine.

One thing that I find interesting is that more than one of my friends has mentioned that if they had to do it over again, they would have considered osteopathic schools over the Caribbean. Like you mentioned, things are easier in the states with regards to both everyday life and logistical issues relating to med school. Do not concern yourself too much with the stupid stigmas. You will not encounter negativity nearly as much as you may anticipate, whether DO or FMG. With that said, however, going to school in the US (DO or MD) will make things a lot easier for your down the road. As a DO, you can enter into pretty much any specialty while some will be "off limits" coming from the Caribbean (though not entirely impossible). Both SGU and DO are good options, but I would strongly consider DO before jumping to the tropics.

 

[mfrederi]

OK, so things aren't perfect (i.e. MD in your eyes) and therefore you are going to have a pain in your butt during med school- whether that be because you are stuck in a 2nd world country at a medical school that is really a cash cow (although they train fine doctors) or at a nice cozy school here in the fine US of A. Manip- yes, it is a pain in my opinion, and when you have a big test coming up in another class it is the last thing you want to do. Craniosacral- everybody has their opinion, I don't really buy it but was probably the easiest part of manip, and yes, I did enjoy the naps, don't let this stop you. Just giggle and sleep through it. respect- whatever, some people probably won't respect you because you are a DO, but I also know for a fact that if you adhere to DO philosophy (body is a unit, blah blah) you will be a great doctor and patiets will seek you out. You will lose a few but you will gain alot more. Most people are looking for something different, and you can be that whether you are DO or MD, but DOs seem to be better equipped to approach medicine with an openmind and not always do things the same old way. So, do you want the pain in your butt to be 4-5 hrs a week of manip, or moving a thousand miles to an island for 4 years and then working your tail off to get a residency spot. Don't forget, you will have to match as an IMG.

 

[hotlikebutter]

just coming back from the caribbean on a research project myself, i just have to say that it is incredibly different there. the things that you are used like having good cheap groceries and good service are not there. things are expensive. you will be in culture shock for about the first half of your first year if you are lucky. its that different there.

also, i see a lot of these posts. im curious. what are SGU's entrance requirements and how selective are they? it seems to me that if you can afford it, then you are basically in.


either way you will need to work hard. good luck to you.

 

[pushinepi2]

I hear they totally rebuilt that campus after this past hurricane season, no?

Anyway, if you do a search on this topic or any of its 1,000 permutations (DO or IMG?... Help! DO or Caribbean!... Confused... DO vs. IMG MD...), you'll be inundated with more opinion than you can possibly handle. Your worries about the DO or IMG stigma pale in comparison to the concerns about passing board exams and gross anatomy. To put this decision in proper perspective, think about when you'll be applying to residency. After you're accepted into a program, your undergraduate medical education means LITTLE. Your undergrad career is what you make it... the yield of clinical rotations is directly proportional to your time investment and dedication.

While the issue of professional stigma may seem significant when considering the relative prestige of SGU vs. your selected DO schools, these concerns don't carry much weight once you transition to the "practice" side of medicine. I've rotated with people from Yale, Harvard, and other schools drawf my own little 'osteopathetic' college's reputation. When you line us up and shove a sick patient in front of us, it is difficult to tell the osteopath from the ivy-leaguer. Residency directors look for QUALITY. This can be found in IMG/Carib MD's, DOs, and US MD's. It is up to you to distinguish yourself in academic and clinical performance. A school's degree or academic reputation mean nothing if you squeak by with barely passing board scores, lackluster letters, and an unimpressive class ranking. Conversely, some residency programs are hungry for a body and will take any medical graduate capable of formulating a differential. The choice to attend one school or the other is a personal one. Weigh the pluses and minuses. Review financial concerns. Talk to current students. Just bear in mind that whispers of inferiority or concerns over public perception make no difference when you walk on stage to collect that diploma.

That said, its possible that those Harvard grads have a bit of a jump start on the rest of us. 🙁 Damn Hopkins grads!

Good luck,

PuSh

 

[Mkitties]

I'm in a similar position trying to decide whether I would be happier at a DO school or a foreign school. Many posts in this thread are about students at foreign schools that regretted their decision to go abroad and would do the DO route if they were given a second chance. My question is are there any DO students/grads that would go abroad if they were to do it all over again?

 

[stomper627]

My question is are there any DO students/grads that would go abroad if they were to do it all over again?

No. Im glad I went this route.

Im happy I learned manual therapy, much of it similar to those techniques learned as an Athletic Trainer. I plan on getting a sports medicine fellowship. Manual therapy is used quite a bit in this profession as it is in PM&R, PT, OT, Athletic training, personal training, massage therapy, etc.
stomper

 

[raptor5]

If you have to ask DO or SGU then go to SGU. If you must have that MD then go to SGU. If you are interested in OMM then got to a DO school. It is that simple. If you have any doubts go to SGU b/c like I said in previous posts the last thing I want to see is another disgruntled DO student who could care less about OMM. No I do not plan on specializing in OMM and have made my share of cracks about OMM b/c I believe a small portion of it is indeed MAJOR BS.

 

[Skip Intro]

I'm in a similar position trying to decide whether I would be happier at a DO school or a foreign school. Many posts in this thread are about students at foreign schools that regretted their decision to go abroad and would do the DO route if they were given a second chance. My question is are there any DO students/grads that would go abroad if they were to do it all over again?

Well, just as an alternative voice to the general impression you've gleaned from this forum about the Carib schools, I went to Ross and am extremely happy with the outcome. If I had the choice to do it all over again, I would.

But, it worked for me, and I worked hard to get where I am now. A lot of "disgruntled" Carib students didn't play the hand they were dealt very well. Many, if not most, didn't have the opportunity to get into a DO program either. So, their lack of aptitude is what ultimately will hold them back, even if they somehow make it all the way through the program (which most true weaklings can't/won't). They'll get mediocre grades, just scrape by on the boards, and will ultimately wash-out during the residency interview process, if they even get interviews.

The point is, we're all individuals with individual abilities, strengths, and weaknesses. What works for me may not work for you. Personally, DO was never an option for me (for reasons I won't iterate here). But, suffice it to say that I, too, have worked with a lot of DOs, US students, and other Carib students from other schools. In the end, it really is the individual who determines how good of a doctor/clinician one will become. There may be brilliant minds out there, but if they are lazy brilliant minds they still will likely become lazy physicians. Personally, I'd rather have a tenacious, hard-working Carib doc or DO working on me rather than a lazy Harvard or Hopkins grad who doesn't really care about my problem. But, that's just me.

Again, either route the OP decides, she will do well. It's just going to depend on what effort she puts into it. Don't listen to the complainers, Mkitties. If they spent half as much time working hard as they do complaining and wishing they'd done things differently, they'd be in my shoes instead of making excuses why they are in their own.

-Skip

 

[Fusion]

Again, either route the OP decides, she will do well. It's just going to depend on what effort she puts into it. Don't listen to the complainers, Mkitties. If they spent half as much time working hard as they do complaining and wishing they'd done things differently, they'd be in my shoes instead of making excuses why they are in their own.

-Skip

I agree with you, and SGU and Ross are both great options. I know people who graduated from these schools and are now in residency or practicing successfully as full fledged physicians. They never complained about their experiences, only that they would have considered osteopathy if they had to do it over again. It's not that they regretted going to the Carib, just that they didn't even consider DO school back when they were applying. Now that osteopathy is becoming more common and well-known, more premeds today are considering DO schools than even ten years ago.

 

[nico05]

I think the stigma of an IMG is far worse than that of a DO.

Agreed

 

[Skip Intro]

Agreed

Funny. All that's stitched on my labcoat is "M.D.", and not "Caribbean M.D.". In a residency program, do you honestly think people walk around the hospital asking each other where they went to medical school, or even care for that matter? Do you think patients do this routinely? Have you even been in the hospital yet?

-Skip

(P.S. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, and I've got no problem with D.O.'s and have trained with many of them side-by-side. It's just that this type of uninformed, unsupported, and superficially abbreviated opinion is often what comes from pre-meds who don't yet really know any better. I've got news for many of you. For all intents and purposes, Carib grads and DO's are in the exact same boat stigma-wise. Most Program Directors, who's opinion is the only one that matters, know the reason why the majority [notice I didn't say all] of those going either the DO or Carib route went that way: because they couldn't get into a U.S. allo school.)

 

[DrBowtie]

Funny. All that's stitched on my labcoat is "M.D.", and not "Caribbean M.D.". In a residency program, do you honestly think people walk around the hospital asking each other where they went to medical school, or even care for that matter? Do you think patients do this routinely? Have you even been in the hospital yet?

-Skip

(P.S. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, and I've got no problem with D.O.'s and have trained with many of them side-by-side. It's just that this type of uninformed, unsupported, and superficially abbreviated opinion is often what comes from pre-meds who don't yet really know any better. I've got news for many of you. For all intents and purposes, Carib grads and DO's are in the exact same boat stigma-wise. Most Program Directors, who's opinion is the only one that matters, know the reason why the majority [notice I didn't say all] of those going either the DO or Carib route went that way: because they couldn't get into a U.S. allo school.)

It isn't so much in practice as in getting your foot in the door. I.E. graduating from a top 10 school might get you into more doors but once your in I don't think it matters too much.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I'm in a similar position trying to decide whether I would be happier at a DO school or a foreign school. Many posts in this thread are about students at foreign schools that regretted their decision to go abroad and would do the DO route if they were given a second chance. My question is are there any DO students/grads that would go abroad if they were to do it all over again?

No. I'm glad I didn't go to a US MD school either.

 

[frank51]

Most Program Directors, who's opinion is the only one that matters, know the reason why the majority [notice I didn't say all] of those going either the DO or Carib route went that way: because they couldn't get into a U.S. allo school.)

Many choose to attend D.O schools because of the variety of reasons such as the location of the school, family, philosophy, tuition (state schools) etc. and sure there are also people who end up attending D.O schools because their GPA/MCAT wasn’t high enough to get accepted to a US MD school. I seriously doubt that US citizens who attend Carribean schools go there because of the location, tuition, family, etc.

 

[drusso]

For all intents and purposes, Carib grads and DO's are in the exact same boat stigma-wise. Most Program Directors, who's opinion is the only one that matters, know the reason why the majority [notice I didn't say all] of those going either the DO or Carib route went that way: because they couldn't get into a U.S. allo school.)

I'm not so sure about this: Some programs want residents to be independently licensed during their residency so that they can indepedently bill on non-medicare patients. Being able to be independently licensed is a requirement in order to be chief in some programs.

Foreign graduates cannot become independently licensed in certain states until AFTER completion of their residency program---i.e. they continue to practice under a trainee license all throughout residency. This also has implications for moonlighting too. One cannot moonlight unless you're independently licensed. This is not a problem for DO's as we are considered US medical graduates.

I remember when I applied to medical school I was choosing between US MD schools and US DO schools. I very attracted to the osteopathic approach to patient care, but had reservations about "the stigma" of being a DO. One of the DO's at UCSF just bluntly said to me, "Look things get better every year for DO's and when you're finishing residency and comparing what things are like at that time to what they were like when you started medical school you'll only see more of an improvement." He was right.

With respect to the OMM and osteopathic philosophy, the profession has invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into uniquely osteopathic research in order to generate more evidence-based recommendations for its application. This is just beginning to come to fruition and I predict in 10 more years there will even be MORE research supporting its use.

Things are even improving on the international scene and this year the AOA will host its first international osteopathic conference. So, I think there has never been a better time to be part of the osteopathic movement. But, everyone makes their own choices based upon their own understanding of the data.

However, I am convinced one thing will sink you. If you attend a DO school only because you couldn't get into an MD school, you'll be miserable. DO schools will hold you accountable to knowledge and skills in OMM. If this is a deal-breaker for you, don't do it. Ask any DO student and they can tell you about a handful people in their class who *hate* the osteopathic part of their medical education. These individuals tend to become isolated, sullen, and "cut off" from the rest of their class. Medical school is a long and tedious endeavor. It is only worse if you wake up every day hating where you are.

 

[oldManDO2009]

I chose a DO program because (1) I am outside the normal age range for allo schools - though there is no age discrimination 😕 (2) I have worked with a lot of physicians and you cannot tell the difference between either an MD or a DO - their clinical approach is exactly the same. I have never seen a hospitalist (DO) perform OMM. (3) The DO physicians I worked with were awesome and I had a great deal of respect for their approach to patient care and most importantly I would let them treat myself or a family member any day (that includes the MD docs too). (4) your a doctor and people want competent care and do not ask for a CV prior to you providing care - if you are that caught up in the MD v. DO thing then you should only go to a top 10 school because that might not even be good enough.

I will graduate a much older man 🙂 and hang out in the ER (if I can get an EM residency 🙄 ) and no one is gonna care where I went to school they are just gonna hope to hell I can help them.....

 

[Skip Intro]

Many choose to attend D.O schools because of the variety of reasons such as the location of the school, family, philosophy, tuition (state schools) etc. and sure there are also people who end up attending D.O schools because their GPA/MCAT wasn’t high enough to get accepted to a US MD school. I seriously doubt that US citizens who attend Carribean schools go there because of the location, tuition, family, etc.

No offense intended, but I think you completely missed my point.

I'm not so sure about this: Some programs want residents to be independently licensed during their residency so that they can indepedently bill on non-medicare patients. Being able to be independently licensed is a requirement in order to be chief in some programs.

Foreign graduates cannot become independently licensed in certain states until AFTER completion of their residency program---i.e. they continue to practice under a trainee license all throughout residency. This also has implications for moonlighting too. One cannot moonlight unless you're independently licensed. This is not a problem for DO's as we are considered US medical graduates.

Well, this is indeed a valid point and you're technically and factually correct here, but I'm not sure you're 100% correct practicably. Actually, 25 states have rules that limit licensure of IMGs until they have 3-years of residency training, and in 1 state they limit all doctors-in-training from getting independent licensure until after 3-years of residency training. So, you're (mostly) right when you say that certain states place limits on IMGs from achieving independent license, but you don't necessarily have to have finished your residency (i.e., there are residency programs that are longer than three years). In those 25 states, clearly U.S. grads are capable of getting an independent license and would be able to moonlight after just 1 year.

Functionally, I'm not sure the scenario you describe happens all that often, and I further question the ethics as you describe the situation, not to mention the numerous patient-safety concerns this issue raises (which, among many other things, is one of the reason why the federal 80-hour work week restrictions that were recently put into place). And, the Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB) happens to agree with me.

Furthermore, many residency programs have specific contractual stipulations regarding non-moonlighting. Despite the fact that the AMA reports only a 23-37% moonlighting rate for residents across all specialties, I'd also question how many of the moonlighters actually begin working outside of their program during their PGY-2 year. So, again functionally, I'll grant you that this may provide you some small financial advantage during PGY-3 if your program actually allows you to moonlight. (It just so happens that my program allows moonlighting and the state I'm applying for licensure in does not have the IMG restriction. I probably still will not moonlight, if at all, until PGY-4. At least, that's the plan now.)

Additionally (and as alluded to), there is a policy statement on record by the FSMB that, if adopted, would unify and standarize across all state boards the requirement that all medical graduates in residency programs have a minimum of 3-years post-graduate training before being allowed to seek independent licensure - not just IMGs. This would also remove the perception of prejudice as well as the non-uniform policies of differing state medical boards with regards to this issue. Whether this recommendation will be adopted by the time current pre-med students, who otherwise might have utilized this relatively minor consideration as a factor in determining where to do their training, actually finish their undergraduate medical training remains to be seen. In other words, by the time this "current crop" graduates, this may be a non-issue/non-advantage.

However, I am convinced one thing will sink you. If you attend a DO school only because you couldn't get into an MD school, you'll be miserable. DO schools will hold you accountable to knowledge and skills in OMM. If this is a deal-breaker for you, don't do it. Ask any DO student and they can tell you about a handful people in their class who *hate* the osteopathic part of their medical education. These individuals tend to become isolated, sullen, and "cut off" from the rest of their class. Medical school is a long and tedious endeavor. It is only worse if you wake up every day hating where you are.

And, this may be an extremely valid and personal reason for many not to choose this path. Most D.O.'s I know really have no intentions of practicing OMM when they get out in the real world. Of course, others are adamant about it's incorporation. I agree with you that, at best, it's another service that you will be able to offer your patients and, at worst, it's something that is simply de rigueur for osteopathic education and you will never again use once you graduate. Whether the majority of students fall into the extremes (loving it vs. hating it) or just tolerate it to get by, I personally don't know. But, my personal experience with the many osteopathic students I've rotated with is that there is little interest among the majority of them, as well as little real opportunity to use this modality other than in a clinic or personal office. Even then most patients you'll see really aren't all that interested... which holds double-true if you end-up in an ACGME residency or a specialty where it isn't really that practical (e.g., how many anesthesiologists are really going to use OMM?) or encouraged.

Just some other things to consider. 🙂

-Skip

 

[frank51]

No offense intended, but I think you completely missed my point.

You stated that program directors know that most people who attend D.O and Carribean schools could not get accepted to U.S MD schools. I simply stated that there are many who attend D.O schools for reasons other than “not being accepted to US M.D schools” while it’s very difficult to find a US citizen who chose to attend a Carribean school for reasons other than “not being accepted to US M.D schools”. Program directors are well aware of such factors. BTW, no offense taken.

 

[MGoBlueDO]

I'd stay in the US. You have better chance of specializing if your a DO since we have our own residencies and less school that means its easier if you wanted to specialize...also a lot of DO students are going to specialized allopathic programs as well a few people from my school got into Harvard, Fox Chase in Rad Onc, etc, Univ of Oklahoma...plus its easier to adjust to medical school if your in a similar country...my friend left the US and he's having a harder time in rotations cause the school he went to didn't really set up anything 3rd and 4th years...plus no matter what the degree there will always be people criticizing people who are DO's or if your a foreign MD.
OPP is easy...it helps with anatomy...just my advice...
This is just my experience some other's may have others...
Good Luck

 

[Skip Intro]

You stated that program directors know that most people who attend D.O and Carribean schools could not get accepted to U.S MD schools. I simply stated that there are many who attend D.O schools for reasons other than “not being accepted to US M.D schools” while it’s very difficult to find a US citizen who chose to attend a Carribean school for reasons other than “not being accepted to US M.D schools”. Program directors are well aware of such factors. BTW, no offense taken.

I'd otherwise completely agree with what you're saying, but here's why I think you missed the point (and actually made a different point than I was making... which is okay). First off, the emphasis was on the word 'most' in relation to PDs, not 'many' in relation to what matriculants would or would not do. If we're changing terms, it'd be equally fair for me to suggest that 'many' Carib students also could've gotten an acceptance to a DO school, but just chose not apply or go to for their own reasons. Likewise, I actually believe the common perception is that the majority of DO students, regardless of what they may or may not later try to convince themselves, would actually have taken a U.S. MD spot if they'd gotten it. If we're continuing to have an honest conversation here, the ones who truly choose DO (and actually had an admission from both a DO and MD program in their hands) are relatively few and far between. So, while your comments may be valid, they were not really on point.

On the whole, however, I do agree that there is currently a slight advantage to going DO for a few reasons. First, it is easier to get U.S. rotations outside of your affiliated institutions. Second, the point that DrRusso raises is also valid. And, lastly, there are osteopathic residencies (including Derm, Rads, and Ortho) that you have a vastly greater chance at getting over an IMG going for the same at an ACGME program. Likewise, not all DO schools are created equal, and coming from a NYCOM or a COMP will help you out a lot more than coming from certain others. School reputation and credibility do ultimately matter.

Lastly, the downsides in comparison (if anyone considers them to be, personally I don't) is that you will be a "DO" marked with the D.O. letters behind your name. You're necessarily going to get more questions than having M.D., although I still don't imagine that it is that much of an issue (and probably going to be less and less of one in the years to come). Likewise, you have to sit through OMM courses. Not my cup of tea, but I won't fault others if they really think it helps in some circumstances and have good experience with it.

In the end, I firmly believe that there's no substantial advantage to the "DO option" with regards to what most (not all) PDs think, the only point that is paramount here. If you are competitive candidate from a DO school or a competitive candidate from a Carib school, you'll do well. If not, you'll get a spot, but likely not your top choice. The fact is that there are some PDs who are open-minded enough to select quality candidates from DO schools. These same PDs are also open to selecting candidates from Carib schools. You'll find that there are some PDs, especially in the top programs, who won't consider either. That's just the way it is.

-Skip

 

[Marianne11]

I actually believe the common perception is that the majority of DO students, regardless of what they may or may not later try to convince themselves, would actually have taken a U.S. MD spot if they'd gotten it. If we're continuing to have an honest conversation here, the ones who truly choose DO (and actually had an admission from both a DO and MD program in their hands) are relatively few and far between.
.

-Skip

So because I have been acceted to several MD programs, but am waiting to hear from a DO waitlist (my first choice) if I get in I should let PDs, patients, etc. in the future know that I was also accepted at MD schools but chose DO? I don't think it is that few or far between. There are a lot, "a lot", of DO students with GPA/MCAT scores that rival or are higher than the MD mean.

 

[newyorkcougar]

My MCAT was a 33R and I chose not to apply to a single allo school. I would have been fine getting into an MD program, but I actually want to be a DO. I think there are more and more kids like me in the pipeline. Many people are not using DO schools as backups. Solid, competative applicants are chosing it as their top choice.

 

[docbill]

Likewise, I actually believe the common perception is that the majority of DO students, regardless of what they may or may not later try to convince themselves, would actually have taken a U.S. MD spot if they'd gotten it. If we're continuing to have an honest conversation here, the ones who truly choose DO (and actually had an admission from both a DO and MD program in their hands) are relatively few and far between.-Skip

The Majority prob did go DO for various reasons. Did not wish to re-apply the next year. Did not want to repeat the MCAT, did not wish to make up for grades from 10 years ago etc...

The point is, these are two means of becoming a Physician. I really do look forward to being a Minority and unique among the medical field. Being a DO is going to allow you to be different at least in the mind of some and may even allow you to practice different. People also underestimate OMT. I don't believe a surgeon is going to USE OMT. But for back pain, leg pain this is an advantage.

This board, has to stop outlining the lower average as the difference. It is not the main thing to concentrate on.

BTW, I try not to answer these posts anymore, cause they are really non-productive.

 

[drusso]

No offense intended, but I think you completely missed my point.

Functionally, I'm not sure the scenario you describe happens all that often, and I further question the ethics as you describe the situation, not to mention the numerous patient-safety concerns this issue raises (which, among many other things, is one of the reason why the federal 80-hour work week restrictions that were recently put into place). And, the Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB) happens to agree with me.

Furthermore, many residency programs have specific contractual stipulations regarding non-moonlighting. Despite the fact that the AMA reports only a 23-37% moonlighting rate for residents across all specialties, I'd also question how many of the moonlighters actually begin working outside of their program during their PGY-2 year. So, again functionally, I'll grant you that this may provide you some small financial advantage during PGY-3 if your program actually allows you to moonlight. (It just so happens that my program allows moonlighting and the state I'm applying for licensure in does not have the IMG restriction. I probably still will not moonlight, if at all, until PGY-4. At least, that's the plan now.) -Skip

Well, it varies from place to place but at the Mayo Clinic, (and the Cleveland Clinic too) they want their residents independently licensed ASAP. There are no ethical issues here. After a physician has passed step 3 of their boards they are eligible for licensure. Mayo even pays for their residents to get their license! Furthermore, most teaching institutions have "chief services" and/or "senior services" etc as part of the educational experience and transition to independent practice where the chief or senior runs the show. Do you really think that senior attending staff surgeons do *ALL* the appendectomies at big name places? Believe me, those are "chief cases." In order to run the show, you need to be able to bill. In order to bill, you need to be licensed. Simple.

Finally, that AMA statistic about moonlighting is severely low-balled. Most residents, especially those with families, *HAVE* to moonlight out of financial necessity. Moonlighting is, of course, a very tenuous issue, but when a resident has the opportunity to double their salary and provide a little better life for themselves and their families (or start repaying loans), most take the opportunity.

Bottom line: Everything in life will have intended and unintended negative consequences. When faced with difficult situations, one approach is to choose the option that appears to have the fewest unintended negative consequences.

 

[nico05]

Funny. All that's stitched on my labcoat is "M.D.", and not "Caribbean M.D.". In a residency program, do you honestly think people walk around the hospital asking each other where they went to medical school, or even care for that matter? Do you think patients do this routinely? Have you even been in the hospital yet?

-Skip

(P.S. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, and I've got no problem with D.O.'s and have trained with many of them side-by-side. It's just that this type of uninformed, unsupported, and superficially abbreviated opinion is often what comes from pre-meds who don't yet really know any better. I've got news for many of you. For all intents and purposes, Carib grads and DO's are in the exact same boat stigma-wise. Most Program Directors, who's opinion is the only one that matters, know the reason why the majority [notice I didn't say all] of those going either the DO or Carib route went that way: because they couldn't get into a U.S. allo school.)

Funny, no. Yes, I have spent plenty of time in a hospital and no, I don't think you all ask each other where you went to med school; if you read the post, the OP was asking which the better path would be...and if you look at the numbers, one will have a statistically better chance at getting into a competitive residency with a degree, be it MD or DO, from a US school.

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/tables/table2_04.pdf

If you look at the number of US Oseteopaths who have matched, the percentages are significantly higher; consistently 69-70% of those who apply are accepted. Only 45-55% of US foreign graduates are accepted to a residency program.

This should show that the chances of being accepted to a US residency program are higher if you have attended medical school in the US.

Congrats that you were part of the 45-55% of who were accepted; I was just trying to accurately inform the OP.

Informed and supported enough?

And the vast majority of caribbean medical students could not get into a US medical school; a good number of (note: not majority but about 1/2) DO students appreciate the philosophy behind the DO approach and thats why they decided to attend.

Look, I too wish not to start a "flame war", however, dont be so quick to make such a broad statement about all of us "uninformed pre-med" students when you too at one time, before so prestigious and pompous, were an uninformed pre-med student who just wanted to be a doctor.

 

[Skip Intro]

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/tables/table2_04.pdf

If you look at the number of US Oseteopaths who have matched, the percentages are significantly higher; consistently 69-70% of those who apply are accepted. Only 45-55% of US foreign graduates are accepted to a residency program.

This should show that the chances of being accepted to a US residency program are higher if you have attended medical school in the US.

Congrats that you were part of the 45-55% of who were accepted; I was just trying to accurately inform the OP.

Informed and supported enough?

Actually, no.

The data you refernece "lumps" all IMGs into one category, and does not make a separate consideration for individual schools. For example, Ross and SGU graduates have numbers comparable to U.S. students across the board, when looked at as a separate group from all other IMGs. For example, Ross and SGU students have a higher first-time pass rate than DO's on the USMLE Step 1 (compared to those DOs who actually take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX). But, if you simply look at the "all IMG" data on the AAMC/NBME websites, you'd get a different (and the wrong) impression.

Bottom line is that you can't look at this data in gross comparison to U.S. DO candidates. So, don't kid yourself. Program Directors who choose to interview DOs and Carib grads know such things. As I said before, school matters. If you go to a newer, lesser-known Carib school (or any of the other various med schools in the world) or any school whose curriculum is not geard towards getting you back to the U.S., then you're probably going to struggle as an IMG. That point is granted. However, if you go to a newer, lesser-known DO program (I won't name names), you may have more trouble than you bargain for come residency interview time, especially if you're not a stand-out in the program.

My only main point is that the decision to go one route versus the other is not as black-and-white as many people often try to make it out to be. A lot of this comes down to personal choice. And, in the end, whatever you choose, you'll do fine provided you've done your homework, work hard, and enroll in a program that has a solid track record of getting its graduates into the type of program in which you ulitmately want to end-up.

🙂

-Skip

 

[Megalofyia]

Last year I got into a caribbean school but I decided to defer a year because after talking to some FMGs I was told to do what I could to be an American medical school graduate.

Anyways not only because some people told me it was a bad idea but I really thought about it. And after doing more reading and talking to Caribbean grads I am really glad I didn't go last year. Not because I'm worried about some stima or overall general trends in board scores etc.. but because as an individual I wasn't convinced that if I needed extra help in something that the Caribbean school would necessarily back me up. What I get is that the Caribbean schools are even more cut throat than pre-meds are here.

Skip says that the board scores at his school are higher than DOs that take USLME. One of my things was I wanted to make sure I was at a school that wanted to make sure I got to the point where I could take the USLME. Not everyone that skip started with got to that point. Some dropped out, some where held back, some went to other caribb schools... but at my school I suspect that most of us will make it to graduate in four years with the exception of maybe 1 -3 students.

Perhaps if I were a more competative person who thought that I could learn all I needed to on an island far from home then perhaps I'd be more enthusiastic about going the caribbean route.

 

[Skip Intro]

Skip says that the board scores at his school are higher than DOs that take USLME.

That's not what I said. I said the first-time pass rates for the USMLE at some of the Carib schools is higher, on average, than DO schools. There are many reasons for this (e.g., timing of the tests for DO students after COMLEX and "test fatigue", some information that is heavily covered on USMLE that is not covered on COMLEX, etc.). Point is, DO students do not have to take USMLE, and many don't. Some do, however, because they perceive it will make them more competitive for ACGME spots. Students feeling compelled to take, and indeed actually taking, two licensure exams (COMLEX and USMLE) could also be considered a disadvantage over going the Caribbean route. Many osteopathy schools are already significantly more expensive than some of the Caribbean schools.

One of my things was I wanted to make sure I was at a school that wanted to make sure I got to the point where I could take the USLME. Not everyone that skip started with got to that point. Some dropped out, some where held back, some went to other caribb schools... but at my school I suspect that most of us will make it to graduate in four years with the exception of maybe 1 -3 students.

I agree that many deceled, failed out, dropped out... whatever. That is one of the considerations you have to make before you go to the Caribbean. It's not a walk in the park. But, some DO schools also have high attrition rates, a fact that is not often well advertised or known. For example, during the 2001-2002 academic year, across all osteopathic schools there was a total 4-year attrition rate of 10.1%. (Data on page 30 of this document: http://www.aacom.org/data/annualreport/annualreport2003.pdf) While this is still lower than most Carib schools, which are probably more "cutthroat" than the DO schools, I think with the opening of many new DO campuses and schools there is going to be more pressure to let in "subpar" candidates to keep enrollment numbers up. As such, you're likely to see an increase in attrition, especially at the campuses that are more willing to take a chance on someone.

Again, I can't say this enough (especially having just finished taking on the residency interview trail), school matters.

Perhaps if I were a more competative person who thought that I could learn all I needed to on an island far from home then perhaps I'd be more enthusiastic about going the caribbean route.

Well, these are the types of personal considerations I'm talking about, and I don't fault anyone for any reason they decide to do what's best for themselves. I'm am looking to have an honest conversation about such topics, though. Still, I'd never begrudge anyone's choices or personal preferences. It's just that this is not a "black-or-white" decision as some seem to believe. I hope that much is clear in my posts.

-Skip

 

[nico05]

Actually, no.

The data you refernece "lumps" all IMGs into one category, and does not make a separate consideration for individual schools. For example, Ross and SGU graduates have numbers comparable to U.S. students across the board, when looked at as a separate group from all other IMGs. For example, Ross and SGU students have a higher first-time pass rate than DO's on the USMLE Step 1 (compared to those DOs who actually take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX). But, if you simply look at the "all IMG" data on the AAMC/NBME websites, you'd get a different (and the wrong) impression.

Bottom line is that you can't look at this data in gross comparison to U.S. DO candidates. So, don't kid yourself. Program Directors who choose to interview DOs and Carib grads know such things. As I said before, school matters. If you go to a newer, lesser-known Carib school (or any of the other various med schools in the world) or any school whose curriculum is not geard towards getting you back to the U.S., then you're probably going to struggle as an IMG. That point is granted. However, if you go to a newer, lesser-known DO program (I won't name names), you may have more trouble than you bargain for come residency interview time, especially if you're not a stand-out in the program.

My only main point is that the decision to go one route versus the other is not as black-and-white as many people often try to make it out to be. A lot of this comes down to personal choice. And, in the end, whatever you choose, you'll do fine provided you've done your homework, work hard, and enroll in a program that has a solid track record of getting its graduates into the type of program in which you ulitmately want to end-up.

🙂

-Skip

Ok, reading your posts on this thread and seeing how confrontational you seem to be, I will say one last thing. You seem to contradict yourself. You say the data I have provided "lumps" all IMGs into one category, granted this is true, you follow that with Ross and SGU having a higher pass rate than EVERY DO school in the country. Is this not "lumping"? Either "lump" all of your information or do a case by case, institution by institution analyses; not one versus all to have stats to support your argument. Funny how people can skew information?

That being said, no hard feelings; I completely agree with the final paragraph of the above post. Ultimately it comes down to desire and work ethic.

Best of luck to all

 

[Khirurg]

This is a joke ONLY. I am a DO. I actually heard it when I was going a rotation with some SGU students.
Four common lies:
1. I'll call you in the morning
2. You are NOT fat
3. I promise i won't come in your mouth ( i am sorry to the sensitive ones here)
4. I always wanted to be a DO

 

[vivek311r]

Skip, it sounds to me like you must not have done very well with the residency match, if you went through it at all. I guess this is due to your carib MD...looks like you didn't get that radiology residency, huh?

The only thing I'll say about Carib MD schools is that you can get into a lot of them without having taken the MCAT, and I dont know ANYONE thats ever been rejected by Ross or SGU.

Tough standards...

 

[frank51]

While this is still lower than most Carib schools, which are probably more "cutthroat" than the DO schools

You can’t make a comparison regarding how cut throat D.O schools are compared to Carribean schools, because you have not been to D.O schools, furthermore each school is different

I think with the opening of many new DO campuses and schools there is going to be more pressure to let in "subpar" candidates to keep enrollment numbers up.

-Skip

Opening of new D.O schools and their effect on the overall quality of candidates has been discussed on numerous occasions. As long as the demand for medical education is high (as is the case currently) the D.O schools are not in anyway obligated to accept candidates that they find “unqualified”, especially when the location of the school is desirable. For example, when TUCOM-MI opened several years ago, there were many skeptics, since then their graduates have gotten accepted to many of the top residency programs, and their admissions remains competitive, I suspect that their new campus in NV is following in the same exact path regarding their admissions standards and the quality of their future graduates.

 

[DORoe]

Skip, it sounds to me like you must not have done very well with the residency match, if you went through it at all. I guess this is due to your carib MD...looks like you didn't get that radiology residency, huh?

The only thing I'll say about Carib MD schools is that you can get into a lot of them without having taken the MCAT, and I dont know ANYONE thats ever been rejected by Ross or SGU.

Tough standards...

That is uncalled for. These are future collegues and skip has treated everyone he has responded to with respect and I think that he deserves the same. You might not agree with what he has to say, but to take a personal shot at him is unnecessary and juvenile. In fact this whole thread has turned into a juvenile pissing contest.

 

[tkim]

DO vs. Carib is fast becoming the new DO vs MD.

There's some good info in this thread, but it has begun to degenerate. If this continue, I'm going to go ahead and close it.

People make their decisions based on very personal criteria. What makes sense for one person may not make sense for another. People need to realize this, take what they can from it, and resist the temptation to crap on other people's choices. Sheesh.

 

[Skip Intro]

There's some good info in this thread, but it has begun to degenerate.

I agree. Bowing out now. Goodbye (from this thread) folks.

-Skip

 

[docbill]

but what did the OP choose? NOW WE WILL NEVER KNOW

 

[DazedNConfused9]

To all of those who responded to my original post, I truly appreciated it; most, if not all, of the comments were very well-received and offered much insight onto this situation.

I am still undecided at the moment, however. I did not turn in my deposit as of yet - I am going to see if they are willing to give me a 1-2 week extension on the deadline, or otherwise I may send it in via UPS/FedEX for overnight delivery.

This thread has made me realize one thing, if only one at all - that my initial concerns over the stigma and prestige of an osteopathic education were pretty much nonsensical. I say this because I am getting the feeling that most of this stigma is pretty much facilitated by only pre-meds, and seems to be nonexistent once in residency training and beyond.

The reason why I am still undecided is because I am not thinking about stigma anymore, but rather residency and employment opportunities for osteopathic doctors. I may be completely wrong, but my understanding is that if I do not do an AOA residency, I will not be able to practice in five states within the United States; this will also preclude me from obtaining a faculty position at an osteopathic school or in an osteopathic organization such as the AOA itself. However, in the event that I do go through with an AOA residency, I will be precluded from working as a program director or an administrator in a hospital that offers ACGME-accredited residencies only; I also will likely not be able to find employment in one of these major institutions, considering that nearly all of the other physicians working at these select hospitals will have done their residency training in an ACGME-approved site, most of which the employers in question will have some experience with (as opposed to hiring a D.O. from a no-name, unheard of AOA residency, for which they cannot assess the quality of). As a result, I will be forced to practice in an osteopathic hospital instead, most of which are small community hospitals that do not nearly have as much volume or even bed space. Lastly, if I go through an AOA residency, I probably will also not be able to serve on the faculty of an undergraduate campus or in an allopathic school, although for the latter I actually don't know of any DO's that are doing this anyway.

I think my point is that, this whole idea of osteopathic graduates having more opportunities available to them is pretty much taken out of context. It looks as though whether I do an ACGME-accredited residency or not, I will be excluded from some position, somewhere that I might want to eventually obtain. Also, this requirement about doing an AOA internship for those select five states is an outdated policy that should be abolished; it is a form of discrimination that is self-imposed by the AOA, and as a result, it really does not necessarily make true the statement that DO's can be licensed in all 50 states (it can be done, but there are limitations to whatever option is chosen, as I described above).

Something interesting I also found out, and this is not helping me in my decision either. For my state medical board, M.D.'s are required to do only 25 hours of CME credit/year, whereas my state's osteopathic medical board requires D.O.'s to do 50 hours of CME credit/year. If an M.D. does 150 hours of CME credit in my state (in 3 yrs), they receive some type of physician recognition award - I believe this is non-existent for D.O.'s, and even in the case that it was, the D.O. would have to do more than 150 hours of CME credit within those three years. That is bogus in my opinion - again, all self-imposed by the AOA or whatever governing body of D.O.'s.

I really believe the AOA and all of these state osteopathic medical boards need to get their act together; ie. replace the older generation of DO's with the new, progressive ones that will make the needed changes that the students are demanding, such as the combined match and more dual accredited residencies; and lets not forget, more quality GME residency training as well.

I may be completely off on some of those exclusions I listed, so if any D.O. here would please like to correct me, I would really appreciate it. I could use all the information I can get if I want to make a proper decision (with no regrets, of course).

About OMM, I believe it works, but I am not exactly very gung-ho about it; ie. I wouldn't mind learning it, but if I didn't have to, that would work just as well. The minor thing I am concerned about there is undressing in front of my entire class, but I suppose I could easily get over that, considering everyone else will be required to do the same thing too.

To one of the posters that said I failed to mention anything about the pro's of SGU, I'm sorry I forgot. SGU does indeed have many pro's, including a low attrition rate (less than 10%), high graduation rate (over 84%), good transfer rate (3-7%), and a high USMLE first-time pass rate (90%). SGU also has a beautiful campus from some of the pictures I have seen, and they do indeed have a good residency matching list. The other thing is that although the class-sizes tend to be larger, the ages of the students are very well-representative of mine (avg. age is 22), and the students are typically straight out of college; considering that these two factors are similar to my own position, I may find that I would have an easier time fitting in. The male:female ratio of SGU is also nearly 1:1, something that I would not have been able to find at either of the osteopathic schools I would have attended.

The caveat to the SGU match list is that most of the residencies are on the east coast, and I am hoping to do my residency on the west coast. For example, if I wanted to do my residency training in CA, I would probably not be able to get it, since the California letter is required of IMG's - it takes 60 days to process after the date of graduation, and certain institutions (mostly UC-associated) will not interview IMG's without the letter. If I attempted to get into one of these spots, I would have to do a preliminary year elsewhere, which essentially might be like wasting a year after graduation.

However, I may have to do the same thing as a DO. I say this because only 70% of DO's matched into ACGME residencies, whereas 99% of SGU grads matched. If I do not match into an ACGME residency the first time around, I may have to do an AOA internship for the first year and then transfer into an ACGME residency. Depending on whether the residency will take my AOA internship year or not, I may or may not waste a year.

The other thing about the SGU match list is that it does not differentiate between whether not the graduates got preliminary general surgery or categorical spots; I have a feeling it is probably preliminary, but I could be wrong. I don't think I would want to do a GS residency anyway, but if I ever decided to, as a D.O. going into a GS ACGME-accredited residency, this would seem quite hard. If what I said is true about the SGU match list, then it would also be hard that way as well.

Things are getting complicated. That's all I can say. I am sure there are a lot of people that choose the DO route or the offshore route for various factors, but I am pretty sure not that many of the same pool bother to investigate each one of these scenarios. I am concerned about all of these potential events because choosing where to attend a medical school in this situation can have a drastic effect on my future, and I would like to know what I am getting myself into either way. I forgot to mention that my family is pretty much non-supportive of me even thinking about attending SGU or any school out of the country for that matter, and would rather have me stay in the states, because as I said earlier, the school is relatively close to home. That is also making this decision quite difficult.

Now it's time to contemplate just a little bit more.

 

[Docgeorge]

Is it me or is the OP starting to sound more and more like a troll?

 

[stomper627]

The reason why I am still undecided is because I am not thinking about stigma anymore, but rather residency and employment opportunities for osteopathic doctors. I may be completely wrong, but my understanding is that if I do not do an AOA residency, I will not be able to practice in five states within the United States; this will also preclude me from obtaining a faculty position at an osteopathic school or in an osteopathic organization such as the AOA itself. However, in the event that I do go through with an AOA residency, I will be precluded from working as a program director or an administrator in a hospital that offers ACGME-accredited residencies only; I also will likely not be able to find employment in one of these major institutions, considering that nearly all of the other physicians working at these select hospitals will have done their residency training in an ACGME-approved site, most of which the employers in question will have some experience with (as opposed to hiring a D.O. from a no-name, unheard of AOA residency, for which they cannot assess the quality of). As a result, I will be forced to practice in an osteopathic hospital instead, most of which are small community hospitals that do not nearly have as much volume or even bed space. Lastly, if I go through an AOA residency, I probably will also not be able to serve on the faculty of an undergraduate campus or in an allopathic school, although for the latter I actually don't know of any DO's that are doing this anyway.

I think my point is that, this whole idea of osteopathic graduates having more opportunities available to them is pretty much taken out of context. It looks as though whether I do an ACGME-accredited residency or not, I will be excluded from some position, somewhere that I might want to eventually obtain. Also, this requirement about doing an AOA internship for those select five states is an outdated policy that should be abolished; it is a form of discrimination that is self-imposed by the AOA, and as a result, it really does not necessarily make true the statement that DO's can be licensed in all 50 states (it can be done, but there are limitations to whatever option is chosen, as I described above).

Something interesting I also found out, and this is not helping me in my decision either. For my state medical board, M.D.'s are required to do only 25 hours of CME credit/year, whereas my state's osteopathic medical board requires D.O.'s to do 50 hours of CME credit/year. If an M.D. does 100 hours of CME credit in my state (in 3 yrs), they receive some type of physician recognition award - I believe this is non-existent for D.O.'s, and even in the case that it was, the D.O. would have to do more than 150 hours of CME credit within those three years. That is bogus in my opinion - again, all self-imposed by the AOA or whatever governing body of D.O.'s.

I really believe the AOA and all of these state osteopathic medical boards need to get their act together; ie. replace the older generation of DO's with the new, progressive ones that will make the needed changes that the students are demanding, such as the combined match and more dual accredited residencies; and lets not forget, more quality GME residency training as well.

Most of this is wrong....in 5 states you only need to do an INTERNSHIP...1 year, which for most of those programs count as you entire PGY1 year (doubles as your residency too). IF you choose not to do it in one of those states then dont. You have the option of petitioning the AOA, which I believed 95-98% are successful.
Faculty? There are MDs on DO schools....did they do any type of AOA approved ANYTHING? At an allopathic school? I see DOs all the time....you really do need to do some more researching
Once again, your not realizing what the internship really is....there isnt much too it anymore....Peds is not required, OB isnt either, I think surgery has been eliminated as well....besides, MOST HOSPITALS COUNT IT AS YOUR RESIDENCY. If you were to do an AOA internship as were undecided as what you were going into, and decided on Medicine you would only have 2 years of a residency.
CMEs honestly I dont know, but since you are so misinformed Im willing to be youre wrong....
besides, yeah, I always look at a vacation to Brekenridge to ski for a week (and oh yeah, take a few morning classes), or a week to FL to play some golf and sit on the beach (and oh yeah take some classes). This is horrible....
oh, but you dont want to travel? Well take students....you get CMEs for that!!!
There will be a changing of the guard....it cant and wont happen overnight (much like the women and CEOs issues) they will come as OUR generation ages and takes over the positions....until then, just deal with it and become vocal to show your disdain.
Do some more researching....not "I heard from this guy" stuff....