DO/PhD

[orangeman25]

If you have good research experience, what kind of numbers do you need to get into a DO/PhD (sgpa, cgpa, MCAT)? Given that MD/PhD is more competitive than MD, I'm assuming a similar relationship with osteopathic schools? Anyone have an idea?

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[DoctorKrieger]

I think the biggest problem you'll run into is that the only DO schools that offer a PhD are the state schools plus VCOM and PCOM. For my school, the minimum requirements are about the same as the med school (min 3.0 gpa & the science pre-reqs like ochem and physics, etc.), and they waive the GRE if you got 27+ on the MCAT. I don't know if there is a hard cutoff for number of spots available. I suggest contacting the graduate program director/person in charge of admissions for these programs as it will probably be different for each school.

 

[orangeman25]

I think the biggest problem you'll run into is that the only DO schools that offer a PhD are the state schools plus VCOM and PCOM. For my school, the minimum requirements are about the same as the med school (min 3.0 gpa & the science pre-reqs like ochem and physics, etc.), and they waive the GRE if you got 27+ on the MCAT. I don't know if there is a hard cutoff for number of spots available. I suggest contacting the graduate program director/person in charge of admissions for these programs as it will probably be different for each school.

Wait, do you mean to say that DO/PhD applicants can take the GRE in place of the MCAT? I've never heard of that

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I think he is saying you have to normally take BOTH, but you do not have to give GRE scores if you got a 27+ on your MCAT

Which is good because call me crazy but I think the MCAT was easier than the GRE. Probably just because I enjoy science more than random crap

 

[Member 0922]

I think the biggest problem you'll run into is that the only DO schools that offer a PhD are the state schools plus VCOM and PCOM. For my school, the minimum requirements are about the same as the med school (min 3.0 gpa & the science pre-reqs like ochem and physics, etc.), and they waive the GRE if you got 27+ on the MCAT. I don't know if there is a hard cutoff for number of spots available. I suggest contacting the graduate program director/person in charge of admissions for these programs as it will probably be different for each school.

VCOM no longer offers DO/PhD. I asked about it during my interview.

 

[DoctorKrieger]

Wait, do you mean to say that DO/PhD applicants can take the GRE in place of the MCAT? I've never heard of that

No, I think you have it backwards. There is not a way to get out of the MCAT for med school. If, however, your MCAT is 27+, the DO/PhD program at my school will waive the requirement for you to take the GRE for the PhD portion.

 

[DoctorKrieger]

VCOM no longer offers DO/PhD. I asked about it during my interview.

Well I guess that leaves MSU, Ohio U, Rowan, Oklahoma State, North Texas, and PCOM. Not exactly the easiest schools to get into if you're OOS.

 

[orangeman25]

So PCOM is basically the only school that offers this? Good thing that's in my state...

 

[orangeman25]

Well I guess that leaves MSU, Ohio U, Rowan, Oklahoma State, North Texas, and PCOM. Not exactly the easiest schools to get into if you're OOS.

Oh okay. So there are quite a few schools in addition to PCOM.

 

[orangeman25]

I think he is saying you have to normally take BOTH, but you do not have to give GRE scores if you got a 27+ on your MCAT

Which is good because call me crazy but I think the MCAT was easier than the GRE. Probably just because I enjoy science more than random crap

Yeah that's definitely the first time I've heard that! Most people would say that the MCAT is 10x harder than the GRE

 

[DoctorKrieger]

So PCOM is basically the only school that offers this? Good thing that's in my state...

That offers what? The DO/PhD? All those schools do. It's just more difficult for an OOS'er to get into the state-funded schools. PCOM is the only private school of those, so I'm not sure if they have a regional bias or not. If you're really interested in the dual-degree, contact all of those schools and ask about it because I'm sure they are all run differently.

 

[DoctorKrieger]

So PCOM is basically the only school that offers this? Good thing that's in my state...

And...just going by your avatar location, if you're referring to the Georgia PCOM campus, I don't *think* they offer the PhD, only the Philadelphia campus.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Not worth it. You pay your first 2 years then you get interest for 6 and you end up with a PhD from a ****ty university that doesn't have big grant history unless it's msucom. Outside of that, oucom, pcom, osucom and the others are very weak programs.

Don't expect to run a lab with that PhD. Maybe after a post doc and you will end up in a bottom tier college with no r01.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Not worth it. You pay your first 2 years then you get interest for 6 and you end up with a PhD from a ****** university that doesn't have big grant history unless it's msucom. Outside of that, oucom, pcom, osucom and the others are very weak programs.

Don't expect to run a lab with that PhD. Maybe after a post doc and you will end up in a bottom tier college with no r01.

I thought this type of dual degree would make you more competitive in acgme residency applications.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I thought this type of dual degree would make you more competitive in acgme residency applications.

Probably not. They will judge you as a DO/PhD and not the same way as a traditional DO.

Also, PCOM requires a 30 and only accepts one person per cycle. You do the PhD at university of the sciences, which is a school barely anyone knows in science.

 

[DoctorKrieger]

Not worth it. You pay your first 2 years then you get interest for 6 and you end up with a PhD from a ****** university that doesn't have big grant history unless it's msucom. Outside of that, oucom, pcom, osucom and the others are very weak programs.

Don't expect to run a lab with that PhD. Maybe after a post doc and you will end up in a bottom tier college with no r01.

****** university, very weak program...might as well shut the school down and tell all the students to dust off that janitor school application. I'm sure mine is somewhere on my hard drive.

OP, only you know your reasons for being interested in a dual degree program. Research the schools, get in contact with those in charge, and see if any interest you and ignore this generic 'weak program' blanket statement bs.

 

[Path hall]

He does have a point, though. Where you do your PhD and post doc matters a lot, especially in academic medicine.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

****** university, very weak program...might as well shut the school down and tell all the students to dust off that janitor school application. I'm sure mine is somewhere on my hard drive.

OP, only you know your reasons for being interested in a dual degree program. Research the schools, get in contact with those in charge, and see if any interest you and ignore this generic 'weak program' blanket statement bs.

Sounds like you have zero academic research experience whereas I do and have dozens of PhDs to talk to this about.

 

[bionerd89]

I wish someone who has a DO/PhD or is a DO/PhD student can can comment on the situation.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

There is not a way to get out of the MCAT for med school.

Unless you are a PA apparently

 

[DoctorKrieger]

He does have a point, though. Where you do your PhD and post doc matters a lot, especially in academic medicine.

I'm not saying it doesn't, that's why I said only the OP knows his/her goals and reasons for being interested in a PhD program.

Sounds like you have zero academic research experience whereas I do and have dozens of PhDs to talk to this about.

Sounds like a grand ol' time, gathering with dozens of highly educated people and talking about how other programs are worthless for reasons you have yet to give.

 

[orangeman25]

I was interested in the prospect of a dual degree because I've always had an interest in research and didn't want it to fade away if I were to become a physician. I know there are plenty of physicians, without PhDs, that do research. So what are the real advantages of having that dual degree? From the looks of this thread, it looks like there aren't any real ones?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Sounds like a grand ol' time, gathering with dozens of highly educated people and talking about how other programs are worthless for reasons you have yet to give.

It's the realities of the job market. If you want to live in fantasy land, go ahead.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I was interested in the prospect of a dual degree because I've always had an interest in research and didn't want it to fade away if I were to become a physician. I know there are plenty of physicians, without PhDs, that do research. So what are the real advantages of having that dual degree? From the looks of this thread, it looks like there aren't any real ones?

Not if it comes from a lower rank school. The benefit usually is that you begin publishing to have the credibility to get grants. If all you want to do is some research, you can do that in med school or residency. If you still itch, there are special fellowships that are research intensive and meant to get you that credibility to apply for big grants. Besides, a fellowship like that can be done at a more prestigious institution.

 

[DoctorKrieger]

I was interested in the prospect of a dual degree because I've always had an interest in research and didn't want it to fade away if I were to become a physician. I know there are plenty of physicians, without PhDs, that do research. So what are the real advantages of having that dual degree? From the looks of this thread, it looks like there aren't any real ones?

Do yourself a favor and check out the research subforum: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/physician-scientists.32/ You'll probably get better answers to all your questions there.

It's the realities of the job market. If you want to live in fantasy land, go ahead.

Have you even read my posts in this thread?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Have you even read my posts in this thread?

Yes, have you? Because I already explained how prestige plays a role in a PhD. I've explain those labs are not equally funded, and you can see the quality is sub par by where they publish. I've also explained accruing interest of your first two years, etc.

It seems you have no experience whatsoever and instead talk out of turn expecting to have your opinion taken seriously over someone that actually has turn due to first hand experience.

 

[DoctorKrieger]

Yes, have you? Because I already explained how prestige plays a role in a PhD. I've explain those labs are not equally funded, and you can see the quality is sub par by where they publish. I've also explained accruing interest of your first two years, etc.

It seems you have no experience whatsoever and instead talk out of turn expecting to have your opinion taken seriously over someone that actually has turn due to first hand experience.

Where did I deny any of that?

Talk out of turn? Taking my opinion seriously? Please. My only advice was for the OP to get in touch with the relevant people at the different schools to see if their program can meet his/her desires.

 

[WalSlave]

I was really seriously considering a dual DO/PhD degree for a while. But I have to tell you, what everyone is saying is pretty accurate. Funding is limited because the DO/PhD degree is NOT funded the same way as a medical scientist degree is (MD/PhD) because most of the schools offering the DO version do not have the resources/research to acquire NIH funding. This is really a huge deal and does take away from the prestige of the actual PhD. You also should take into account the time. A lot of the schools are vague about how much extra time you spend, but once you get down to the nitty gritty and start reading, you basically save no time by getting a dual degree. A lot of dual degree students are there for about 7-8 years, which is quite a lot. And you end up paying dearly for it.

In short, you're almost better off getting your PhD somewhere awesome that will cover all of the expenses, and then going for your DO degree after that.

 

[Path hall]

I don't think the DO/PhD programs are worth it unless you really want to do basic science research and/or if you really want your own lab.

If you want to do clinical research just go to an academic residency. I had little research experience before residency, but I've already written 2 papers and I'm working on my 3rd. I'm a first year pathology resident.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Yes, have you? Because I already explained how prestige plays a role in a PhD. I've explain those labs are not equally funded, and you can see the quality is sub par by where they publish. I've also explained accruing interest of your first two years, etc.

It seems you have no experience whatsoever and instead talk out of turn expecting to have your opinion taken seriously over someone that actually has turn due to first hand experience.

In the DO/PhD, the PhD part is just glorified? I have two friends who are attending allopathic school and have DO professors, they both told me these DOs don't have PhD... Forgive me if I am uninformed... What is the advantage of having a DO/PhD degree over just a DO degree?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

In the DO/PhD, the PhD part is just glorified? I have two friends who are attending allopathic school and have DO professors, they both told me these DOs don't have PhD... Forgive me if I am uninformed... What is the advantage of having a DO/PhD degree over just a DO degree?

Honestly, I don't know. Maybe someone that genuinely just loves doing science.

 

[cliquesh]

In the DO/PhD, the PhD part is just glorified? I have two friends who are attending allopathic school and have DO professors, they both told me these DOs don't have PhD... Forgive me if I am uninformed... What is the advantage of having a DO/PhD degree over just a DO degree?

It's for people who want to be physician scientists. People who want to spend more time in the lab than treating patients.

People here are arguing that the quality of the PhDs you receive from these dual DO/PhD programs are not good enough to have a successful research career.

 

[hybridomas89]

If you have good research experience, what kind of numbers do you need to get into a DO/PhD (sgpa, cgpa, MCAT)? Given that MD/PhD is more competitive than MD, I'm assuming a similar relationship with osteopathic schools? Anyone have an idea?

I just got into the DO/PhD at MSU so send me a msg if you still have questions.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Sounds like you have zero academic research experience whereas I do and have dozens of PhDs to talk to this about.

Yea I have noticed it do. In medicine unless you are at a top 20, no one really cares if you are an MD/DO, nor where you went. They just want to know if you are a competent physician.

For academia (research) on the other hand, where you went really really matters, for better or for worse it absolutely does.

People will pick up stuff you published, realize you are from a no name place, and will toss it in the trash and find more reputable research from a more reputable journal.

MSU is probably the only DO/PHD that would really stand out I would think...