Do publications REALLY help??

[NeedtobeinNeuro]

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I know my basic stats aren't great and my MCAT completely sucks (I'm planning to retake):

cumGPA: 3.3
sciGPA: 3.4
MCAT: BS 9, VR6, PS 6

But I am currently working in a lab where I did my senior thesis research and I eventually will be lead author on that publication but it won't be ready to submit until this fall. We are considering submitting to Nature. I know that is a long shot and that is my only first author paper so I'm not banking on it getting me in.

I currently have one publication in PNAS and we are submitting manuscripts to Nature Medicine and Nature Biotechnology. The Nature Biotech paper I am second author on and the Nature Med I am fourth (or maybe third since there are two authors who got first authorship/equal contributions). We always have upwards of 10 authors on our papers because we do very multidisciplinary work. Also will be on a clinical paper that we are submitting to New England Journal of Medicine but probably not until the end of summer/fall as we are just starting to write that one. I am on 4 more studies where we will be writing the manuscript soon.

BUT my numbers suck and the earliest I could retake the MCAT and still apply this year is August and getting my scores in September. I already asked for LOR from my PI, a neuropathologist and neurosurgeon I work with who all agreed to write one. If I can get everything else in and my MCAT scores come in september does that make me a strong enough applicant to compete? Or should I just wait even later to take the MCAT and apply next year? That way I would have more accepted publications on my app too.

I work in neurosurgery and already know I want to go into that specialty and since their residency is so long (7 years) I'm a little hesitant to wait to apply another year when I am already taking a year off. I don't want to delay for publications if they don't matter as much, but with the Nature Med, Nature Biotech, my thesis and another study I have contributed significantly to the creation of the manuscript and wrote parts of them.

What should I do???

 

[red doctober]

Don't rush the MCAT-prep or the application. September is late, but doable. You're going to have to raise your MCAT by at least 9 points to have a decent chance. Those publications are amazing, and what that really amounts to is that you have among the best research records of all applicants, buuut that won't completely compensate for a weak MCAT and GPA as well as a lacking in clinical exposure and volunteering, which you didn't mention. If you think that you can significantly improve your MCAT, have a well prepared application, and have decent amounts of the aforementioned activities, go ahead and apply this year.

 

[NeedtobeinNeuro]

My volunteering experience is scattered. I didn't pick an organization and consistently go somewhere I would bounce around from club to club in college and help with set up, the event and clean up for events that were aimed at teaching kids science. I did this through various clubs in my college so there isn't really one person who can attest to this. I think that might hurt me. Also since I've been out of college for a year I tend to just participate in walks/runs any kind of fundraiser but don't take part in planning because I do these through coworkers or roommates who ask if anyone wants to participate.

My clinical experiences have been mostly associated with my job, I attend our department grand rounds every week (not required just interested), attend lab meetings of a neurosurgeon we collaborate with and have gotten to know her very well. She let me watch an craniotomy once! I am supposed to start working with the tumor surgeons in our department to obtain consents for getting research samples. Currently neurosurgery doesn't have clinical research coordinators in their labs so my volunteered our lab and I am the designated guinea pig. Also I do interact with a neuropathologist on a regular basis to analyze data with him and am in the frozen section room whenever there is a case (where I talk to more pathologists while we all wait for our designated samples).

In college I shadowed a neurosurgeon back home and was able to attend their clinical case discussions, follow them rounding on patients and then seeing patients in the clinic but that was only for a day (they don't commit to long term shadowing).

Hopefully that is decent? I was planning on getting in a consistent volunteering place once my MCAT studying was done...I should have realized that might not be as early as I wanted.

 

[gyngyn]

Your biggest problems are your MCAT and to some extent your gpa(s)! Even with 9 more points, a late application will make an acceptance this cycle unlikely. Opinions on my committee would focus on the extremely low 1st MCAT and the fact that service as a PhD researcher might be a better path given the continuous use of standardized testing in physician training.

Apply next cycle with an improved MCAT.

 

[technician]

.

 

[October88]

You really need to boost your MCAT (obviouslly), but to answer your questions publications do really help. I just had one in Annals and my interviewers were really impressed. I do think it holds more weight if they are actually published though or accepted for publication, because so many people can say my research is going to be published or might be published and it really ends up not being published at all...

 

[Goro]

Not even first-author Cell, Nature or Science papers will help those numbers (although they might get you a faculty job interview!)

Your MCAT would not even net an interview at my school. Re-take the MCAT, score in at least the high 20s, and then you're fine for DO programs. Your GPAs are not competetive for MD programs.

I know my basic stats aren't great and my MCAT completely sucks (I'm planning to retake):

cumGPA: 3.3
sciGPA: 3.4
MCAT: BS 9, VR6, PS 6

But I am currently working in a lab where I did my senior thesis research and I eventually will be lead author on that publication but it won't be ready to submit until this fall. We are considering submitting to Nature. I know that is a long shot and that is my only first author paper so I'm not banking on it getting me in.

I currently have one publication in PNAS and we are submitting manuscripts to Nature Medicine and Nature Biotechnology. The Nature Biotech paper I am second author on and the Nature Med I am fourth (or maybe third since there are two authors who got first authorship/equal contributions). We always have upwards of 10 authors on our papers because we do very multidisciplinary work. Also will be on a clinical paper that we are submitting to New England Journal of Medicine but probably not until the end of summer/fall as we are just starting to write that one. I am on 4 more studies where we will be writing the manuscript soon.

BUT my numbers suck and the earliest I could retake the MCAT and still apply this year is August and getting my scores in September. I already asked for LOR from my PI, a neuropathologist and neurosurgeon I work with who all agreed to write one. If I can get everything else in and my MCAT scores come in september does that make me a strong enough applicant to compete? Or should I just wait even later to take the MCAT and apply next year? That way I would have more accepted publications on my app too.

I work in neurosurgery and already know I want to go into that specialty and since their residency is so long (7 years) I'm a little hesitant to wait to apply another year when I am already taking a year off. I don't want to delay for publications if they don't matter as much, but with the Nature Med, Nature Biotech, my thesis and another study I have contributed significantly to the creation of the manuscript and wrote parts of them.

What should I do???

 

[user3]

24 should get you into a DO school somewhere, but for MD you probably need 35+ with those GPA's.

 

[NeedtobeinNeuro]

I agree with gyngyn, how have you tested your desire to enter medicine and how can you prove that you 100% are certain that an MD and not a PhD would best suit you? Just be sure you have a compelling answer to that question, but try to demonstrate it through your experiences as well if possible. You'll be a much stronger applicant next cycle if you apply early and can raise your MCAT.

And hey, 7 years, why not add an extra one if it will make you stronger? If you get into a better medical school with more time invested up front you'll have a better chance of being matched into that specialty eventually during medical school. Plus, would you rather have a year of "free time" when you are age 22/23 or 34/35? I don't regret my time off at all 🙂

I know I definitely do NOT want a PhD because no matter how translational the research is its still not patient care. I want to go into medicine to treat patients. I do research because right now thats all I CAN do. I like people but specifically I like meeting different people and hearing their stories. The changes in the MCAT do suggest that it is becoming increasingly more important to be able to connect with people and I KNOW I can do that. Both neurosurgeons who read my essay so far said I made a strong case for wanting to go into medicine.

I know there are other fields that involve patient care that do not require an MD but quite honestly I am not interested in doing anything in medicine other than being a neurosurgeon. I work well on sleep deprivation and have had plenty of low paying jobs that required me to be on my feet for 10+ so I know I have the physical capabilities. I have a grandmother with aphasia and an uncle who almost lost his life in a motorcycle accident where he sustained a brain injury and had to come live with me and my Dad. I had severe asthma when I was younger and spent A LOT of time with doctors and now again in my job I meet lots of different doctors and I know I want to have the same responsibilities they have.

My low GPA can be explained in that I always took a heavy science load, the lightest being only two science courses with labs a semester (and I still had a calc on top of that). These weren't fluff classes either I took A&P I and II w/lab, Biochemistry w/ lab and discussion, Genetics w/ discussion, Molecular Biology, Medical Neuroscience, Neurobiology w/ lab, and Micro w/ lab. I tried too take as many of the additional science courses that my schedule allowed for so when I got to them in med school it wouldn't be the first time I was hearing it. Also I was working part time and TAed for a class part time while taking some of these upper level courses. I thought it was a smart strategy at the time but now I'm kind of regretting it.

 

[red doctober]

The new MCAT tests how good your social skills are?

Don't fight standardized tests, there will be aplenty after the MCAT that you have to pass to become a doctor.

 

[NeedtobeinNeuro]

It tests your cognitive/critical thinking skills and topics in ethics/psych and soc. I'm not fighting standardized tests. If I had been properly prepared I could have done better. That was my original point in posting, to see if the rest of my application was strong enough that they would wait for other scores which I would take when I was FULLY prepared.

Also I have met many medical students from three different schools in the city I live in and they all say the same thing about step I, that the courses in medical school focus on getting you to pass/do well on step I. The MCAT isn't like that, undergrad courses pick topics based on what gets tested on the MCAT most its really more "what does the professor in that subject like"

 

[Knocked Up]

It tests your cognitive/critical thinking skills and topics in ethics/psych and soc. I'm not fighting standardized tests. If I had been properly prepared I could have done better. That was my original point in posting, to see if the rest of my application was strong enough that they would wait for other scores which I would take when I was FULLY prepared.

Also I have met many medical students from three different schools in the city I live in and they all say the same thing about step I, that the courses in medical school focus on getting you to pass/do well on step I. The MCAT isn't like that, undergrad courses pick topics based on what gets tested on the MCAT most its really more "what does the professor in that subject like"

Look, you're exactly right. The MCAT is a load of BS. Altho my class is quite small there are several kids with monster MCATs. Are they smarter than those with ~30 MCATs? Not at all. We don't rank here, but they don't do any better than us (me included) normal people. The MCAT doesn't test the same skills you need in medical school. Just because someone necessarily gets a 40 on the MCAT doesn't mean they are a lock for a 250.

The problem here, and it is a big problem...is that adcoms place an enormous weight on the MCAT. Your GPA isn't doing you any favors.

To answer your question, the publications do make your application quite competitive. Now, the issue that could rise is the question of who is screening your app. You don't want them to screen your app until a much higher MCAT is there. They will screen you out regardless without the numbers. An August MCAT gets back in September, if you submit in Sept. you're looking at mid October completion. That's really late for next cycle.

To be honest, at the back end of the cycle numbers are king. At the beginning of the cycle they will likely see your publications and individuality. Do what your heart tells you, but if it were me I'd take a September MCAT, nail it and apply in June of 2014.

Get more clinical experience in the mean time and do something out of the norm. You should be fine, but you need to destroy the MCAT to stand a fighting chance regardless of the pubs. Again, they will put a lot of cream on your cake but they don't bake the cake in this game unforunately.

Wishing the best.

 

[mcloaf]

Look, you're exactly right. The MCAT is a load of BS. Altho my class is quite small there are several kids with monster MCATs. Are they smarter than those with ~30 MCATs? Not at all. We don't rank here, but they don't do any better than us (me included) normal people. The MCAT doesn't test the same skills you need in medical school. Just because someone necessarily gets a 40 on the MCAT doesn't mean they are a lock for a 250.

The problem here, and it is a big problem...is that adcoms place an enormous weight on the MCAT. Your GPA isn't doing you any favors.

To answer your question, the publications do make your application quite competitive. Now, the issue that could rise is the question of who is screening your app. You don't want them to screen your app until a much higher MCAT is there. They will screen you out regardless without the numbers. An August MCAT gets back in September, if you submit in Sept. you're looking at mid October completion. That's really late for next cycle.

To be honest, at the back end of the cycle numbers are king. At the beginning of the cycle they will likely see your publications and individuality. Do what your heart tells you, but if it were me I'd take a September MCAT, nail it and apply in June of 2014.

Get more clinical experience in the mean time and do something out of the norm. You should be fine, but you need to destroy the MCAT to stand a fighting chance regardless of the pubs. Again, they will put a lot of cream on your cake but they don't bake the cake in this game unforunately.

Wishing the best.

👍

Agree with all of this. Your very impressive publication record could be a big help for your application if you have the requisitely high MCAT to get your application looked at in spite of your grades. If you apply late in the cycle that's unlikely to happen. Take a year, do work on the MCAT, and apply on the first day possible. You'd also be well-served to get started on some sort of regular non-clinical service commitment now that you can continue until you apply.

 

[sobored]

If I was reviewing a pre-med application for med school and saw a first author Nature paper (not to mention all the nature sister journals and nejm), I would be ASTOUNDED. Most established investigators won't ever publish a Nature paper. Having said that, you need to show that you can pass your classes and pass boards, so you must retake the MCAT. Your app would make me do a double take though...

 

[NeedtobeinNeuro]

If I was reviewing a pre-med application for med school and saw a first author Nature paper (not to mention all the nature sister journals and nejm), I would be ASTOUNDED. Most established investigators won't ever publish a Nature paper. Having said that, you need to show that you can pass your classes and pass boards, so you must retake the MCAT. Your app would make me do a double take though...

Do you actually review med school apps? Just wondering since so far only one responder has identified themselves as an attending and they definitely weren't encouraging for this year.

 

[NeedtobeinNeuro]

Your biggest problems are your MCAT and to some extent your gpa(s)! Even with 9 more points, a late application will make an acceptance this cycle unlikely. Opinions on my committee would focus on the extremely low 1st MCAT and the fact that service as a PhD researcher might be a better path given the continuous use of standardized testing in physician training.

Apply next cycle with an improved MCAT.

Do medical schools consider what classes we took? I always took at least two science classes where one had a lab. The heaviest load I took was three science courses with three labs and one gen ed. Shouldn't this be considered? Maybe if the general requirements for medical school were the only science classes I was taking I would have done better but I was always taking upper level biology courses with them.

 

[red doctober]

Do medical schools consider what classes we took? I always took at least two science classes where one had a lab. The heaviest load I took was three science courses with three labs and one gen ed. Shouldn't this be considered? Maybe if the general requirements for medical school were the only science classes I was taking I would have done better but I was always taking upper level biology courses with them.

Course rigor is definitely considered, but it isn't an out for sub-stellar grades.

 

[NeedtobeinNeuro]

only in med school are consistent B/B+'s considered sub-stellar. Ahhh looks like I'm not applying this cycle FML

 

[Goro]

Of course we do. No matter what the classwork, we expect you to excell in the them. But clearly, excelling in Art History, Philosophy and French Cinema from 1950 is VERY different from Med Micro, Aantomy and Physiology in terms of how we can rely upon you to do well in medical school.


Do medical schools consider what classes we took?


Concur strongly with this post

Course rigor is definitely considered, but it isn't an out for sub-stellar grades.

For MD programs, that's true. For DO, not so. It's just that the former if far more competetive.

only in med school are consistent B/B+'s considered sub-stellar. Ahhh looks like I'm not applying this cycle

 

[gyngyn]

Do medical schools consider what classes we took? I always took at least two science classes where one had a lab. The heaviest load I took was three science courses with three labs and one gen ed. Shouldn't this be considered? Maybe if the general requirements for medical school were the only science classes I was taking I would have done better but I was always taking upper level biology courses with them.

If you get past screening and make to committee there is some interpretation of the gpa including perceived rigor of the institution and academic load. Loading up on classes only to get B's (or C's!) can be interpreted as weak judgement, bad time management or lack of self knowledge, though.

As it stands, you would not get past screening where I work, I'm afraid (due to MCAT and gpa).

 

[NeedtobeinNeuro]

Will all the california schools screen me out at 3.3 GPA? I decided to wait a year and retake (when I'm FULLY ready this time) the MCAT. With a (much) better MCAT score and 3.3 GPA will I stand a chance if I apply to UCSF? I know they're super competitive but I'm only applying far away where I have family and I have family in SF. I'm also not sure how screening works, do you have to have both the MCAT and GPA or just one?

I really don't want to waste money to apply to a school that will screen me out before they even look at me.

 

[gyngyn]

Will all the california schools screen me out at 3.3 GPA? I decided to wait a year and retake (when I'm FULLY ready this time) the MCAT. With a (much) better MCAT score and 3.3 GPA will I stand a chance if I apply to UCSF? I know they're super competitive but I'm only applying far away where I have family and I have family in SF. I'm also not sure how screening works, do you have to have both the MCAT and GPA or just one?

I really don't want to waste money to apply to a school that will screen me out before they even look at me.

Each school has their own screening procedure.

Will you have a chance at any of them? Depends on your MCAT and then, the rest of your ap.

 

[Nissan GTR]

Will all the california schools screen me out at 3.3 GPA? I decided to wait a year and retake (when I'm FULLY ready this time) the MCAT. With a (much) better MCAT score and 3.3 GPA will I stand a chance if I apply to UCSF? I know they're super competitive but I'm only applying far away where I have family and I have family in SF. I'm also not sure how screening works, do you have to have both the MCAT and GPA or just one?

I really don't want to waste money to apply to a school that will screen me out before they even look at me.

Don't bother applying to California MD schools.