Do residency programs know which places I applied to and what specialties?

[MacGyver]

Yes, I know they could pick up the phone and talk to each other. I'm not talking about that. I'm asking if the NRMP/ERAS specifically notifies all residency programs which I am applying to about:

1) number and list of other residency programs I'm applying to
2) type of specialties I'm applying for

I want to apply in more than one specialty. Unless PDs specifically go out of their way to find out (i.e. talking to other PDs via phone) does ERAS give them this information?

Also, if I want to apply to 2 different specialties, I'm assuming that I have to write 2 different essays, which is fine. What else do I have to do besides that? Can ERAS handle both specialty applications simultaneously or do I have to fill out 2 completely different applications?

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[Brewster]

To my knowledge, the only thing the NRMP/ERAS shares with PDs is where you end up matching. They say nothing before the process is over.

 

[ERMudPhud]

My application went out pre-ERAS so I can't speak to how you work the ERAS application. Having seen things from the PD side of things. The PD's will get a list after the match of where everyone on their list ultimately ended up. Pre-match they get nothing. Keep in mind at some institutions applications for many fields go through the same office. All the surgical subs through some secretary in the surgery department for example so you might get found out that way. I think some institutions even have an office of graduate medical education that collects applications for all the house staff programs

 

[zontal]

is it possible then for PDs to know what happened to applicants who did not go through the match?. Also a friend told me the hospital were he is in 2nd yr is cutting down on residency slots, my question then is, Who pays for residency training- the govt, or the sponsoring institution?. Finally, is it possible for an applicant to sign two post match contracts? this guy told me he did and is trying to get out of the 1st contract, but i don't believe him

 

[ERMudPhud]

If you withdraw from the match or don't match all the PD's will know is that you didn't match. If you scramble it won't show up on the list they get from the match.

Residency training is funded by the government but whether the training institution takes a net loss or gain varies from location and is a frequently debated topic here. Most institutions claim they are losing money. Most housestaff claim they would lose even more without them. The government has also offered financial incentives to some institutions to trim their programs.

You can sign as many contracts as you want I guess(not a good idea) but unless you scrambled you should only have been offered one contract through the match. I guess you might end up with two contracts if you scrambled into something you liked better after already matching or if you entered one of the separate early specialty matches and then somehow reentered the regular match. Either way I think you would probably piss off a lot of people

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by ERMudPhud
Most institutions claim they are losing money.

If any program actually said this, I'd laugh in their face.

Medicare funds each resident slot at $100k per year. Since the going rate for resident pay is about $40k per year, thats a +$60k windfall.

Now, they do have to pay for malpractice insurance, but thats MUCH cheaper than what an attending would pay. Theres also some training costs involved.

But no way does any hospital come out losing money on that deal. I challenge any hospital which claims otherwise to publish their finances regarding residents. They wont do this because they know that they make a lot of money from it that they use to subsidize medical care for noninsured people.

If they didnt have federally funded residents, they would have to have PAs/NPs, or even full attending MDs take their place, which would be MUCH more expensive than having a resident.

 

[smackdaddy]

the disbursement of the funds is not uniform, and i believe some states receive as little as 60k per resident, while others receive much much more. that said, i still agree that most residency programs without a lot of fat generate funds for the hospital. if the programs spend a lot of money on assistants for the program directors and travel funds well then of course they are going to lose money.

 

[Brewster]

At the institution I am headed to, here is what I get:
1) salary
2) book allowance
3) travel expenses to conferences (one a year plus any I am presenting at) - includes airfare, lodging, food stipend, conference fees
4) medical/dental benefits
5) malpractice insurace
6) disability insurance
7) life insurance

Add this to the fact that the hospital has to support faculty salaries (since they do less clinical work than private practitioners), hire people to staff the graduate medical education office, and support the inefficiencies that go with having residents care for patients (extra lab tests, unecessary x-rays, etc).

So, do I think that the hospital's bean counters are dancing around their offices celebrating the financial windfall that residency programs provide? Absolutely not.

I would, however, agree that hospitals lose less money hiring residents than PAs/NPs/attendings since the residents are subsidized by the government.

 

[mpp]

Originally posted by MacGyver
I challenge any hospital which claims otherwise to publish their finances regarding residents.

Hennepin County Medical Center has... link

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

MacGyver,

You don't have to fill out ERAS two times if you want to apply to multiple specialties. You do have to write personal statements for each specialty but you can save them under different names and designate them individually to the programs to which you apply. I've been told that it is highly advisable to save the statements under very clear names, like "peds PS" and "rads PS" (in contrast to "PS 1" and "PS 2") because you definitely don't to designate the wrong PS to a program

To my knowledge, the programs do not find out through ERAS what specialties you applied or where all you designated. I think it is only after the match they see what and where you matched.

I don't think it is quite fair that a person is frowned upon if they are caught applying to multiple speciatlies. The expectation that you absolutely MUST know what you want to do after third year is a bit silly for those who think they may be interested in something like rads, path, or gas (things most people don't rotate through during 3rd year.) Plus, I've known one too many people who were so gung-ho for a specialty 4th year only to switch to something different during residency.

All the same, I'd really not advise applying to multiple specialties at the same hospital. If you really like the hospital or location that much to begin with, I'd pick one because you don't want to get caught in the act and blackballed altogether.

BTW, what do you think you may be interested in?

 

[MacGyver]

foxxy,

thanks for your very helpful response.

I dont care what they find out after the match, I just want to keep my specialties as secret as possible before the match. I know that if they wanted to they could make random phone calls and find out where I was applying in whcih specialties. I think its wrong for program directors to do this, and I think the NRMP should formally forbid such actions on the part of PDs; but I'm not naive enough to think that it doesnt happen. I'm willing to take that risk AS LONG AS ERAS/NRMP does not explicitly tell the programs which other specialties I'm applying for and which hospitals.

I am thinking about applying in both rad onc and radiology. I am definitely not going to apply to 2 different specialties at the same institution; I realize that this would be pretty foolish.

What do you think my chances are for not getting discovered before the match? Again, I dont care what happens after the match is done.

 

[Scrubbs]

MacGyver-

I think that as long as you're not applying to 2 programs in the same hospital, you have no worries. My friend applied to Ortho and Neurosurg this year, and didn't have any problems... And he had applied to both at our home institution! I think as long as you keep it on the D&L, you shouldn't have a problem. Also, since you're talking about rads and rad onc, you may not even need to write 2 essays.

Good luck!

 

[zontal]

So when do programs get reimbursed by the govt for resident training, i mean is there a specific amount alloted to each program from where they determine how many residents they hire, or does the govt have the programs submit the names of the residents they train and then pay for the number. If the later is the case then how do programs make money from training the residents, and how do they determine how many residents they take.

 

[mpp]

It's a lot more complicated than that. Read the I posted about. It explains a bit about how reimbursement for training residents is determined. It's quite complicated.

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

You're welcome MacGyver. I think you have a pretty good chance of pulling it off without being caught. As long as you're careful with properly designating your personal statements and LOR's it should not be a problem. I think it would be very unlikely for PD's from different departments in different instiutions to discuss the same candidate, so I think you should be safe.

 

[BrooklynDO]

Hi, sorry for the general lack of knowledge Im apparently showing by asking this, but Im a bit curious...
why is it that bad of an idea to apply to multiple specialties in the same hospital? I dont mean applying to like one neurosurgery program and a GYN/OB , i mean if you apply to programs in related specialties...
forgive the MSI naivette...
Bklyn

 

[Sheerstress]

why is it that bad of an idea to apply to multiple specialties in the same hospital? I dont mean applying to like one neurosurgery program and a GYN/OB , i mean if you apply to programs in related specialties...

Applying to multiple specialties can be dangerous because it causes people to question your committment to the specialty, which can be the kiss of death, particularly in the more intense and competitive fields.

Even in fields that are less competitive and appear to have a lot of overlap, (e.g. Internal Medicine vs. Family Practice), there can often be major philosophical differences in the entire approach to treating patients, let alone the day-to-day care. Programs do not want to invest time, money and energy into a resident who may drop out because the specialty was not for them.

As for applying to multiple specialties in the same hospital, it is all the more likely that each specialty will find out early that your loyalties are divided, and write you off.

 

[zontal]

Originally posted by ERMudPhud
You can sign as many contracts as you want I guess(not a good idea) but unless you scrambled you should only have been offered one contract through the match. I guess you might end up with two contracts if you scrambled into something you liked better after already matching or if you entered one of the separate early specialty matches and then somehow reentered the regular match. Either way I think you would probably piss off a lot of people [/B]

ERMudphud,

How can one have two contracts without the programs finding out ASAP if funding of residents is already set out by the Government, I mean is there nothing like a federal pool where programs report the # of interns they took and whom they are.