DO School Quality

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shoyt

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I have a quick question. Why is it common for people to say that DO schools have the same or even better quality of education as MD schools if the admission standards are lower for DO schools (average MCAT score, GPA, etc. are often lower at DO schools as compared with MD schools)?

Isn't it logical to assume that schools with higher admission standards naturally have higher qualities/levels of education?
 
Med school curriculum was standardized in the aftermath of the Flexner Report. I think this was in 1925. MD schools started with this, and in order to receive equal accreditation and subsequent practice rights, most DO schools followed. Those that didn't conform (DO and MD) were forced to close.

As far as education quality... there is so much information that you learn in medical school that you will be mostly self-taught. So what you get out of class time really doesn't matter that much. A lot of medical students don't even go to class. They just buy/copy notes or watch the lectures online. And how the classes actually are taught, it is done about the same way. There are the same types of curriculum options in DO and MD schools.

DO schools also typically have a higher average age of matriculation. That means more non-traditional students. So a guy who goes to college with no idea what he wants to do, works for a while, and then comes back wanting to go to medical school will probably not have the same numbers that a guy who knew he wanted to be a doctor from day one.

Some advantages that MD schools have:
- Many have huge health-science centers attached to them. If you want to do a lot of research, you probably have a better chance at an MD school.

- Many have huge teaching hospitals. Less moving around for rotations at MD schools. Is this an advantage? Maybe in terms of convenience, but not necessarily in terms of education and experience quality.
 
SO~! I went to a Community College--- open door policy for admission... Two years later I transferred to an upper-ranked University (umich), which has quite high standards of admission...

Results?-- Any day of the week I would easily go back to the Community College. The level of instructor contact, the community atmosphere, the "maturity" of the students, all facilitate an elevated education environment.

I believe the same thing is true with DO vs MD-- Sure, you would think that MD's have a better education because they have higher standards... But I strongly believe that DO schools have more of a "community learning" environment when compared to MD schools. The people are usually more "worldly" just by nature of the DO selection factors. The students often have lives outside of school. Heck, go look at the Pre-MD forum and compare the "uptight, egotistical, and competitive" nature of many of the regulars there--- What do you have on the DO board? Helpful, friendly, etc....

Then you can look at the "individual" factor associated with ANYTHING. People will only get out what they put in. Success is individual based =)

Just because a popular Friday-night Club is hard to get into doesn't mean it has the best music, best drinks, best people- Oft it's horribly crowded, people are rude, drinks are expensive, etc...

Shall I go on?

You don't need to disguise your interest in DO schools by asking questions like that bud =) If you're ashamed of wanting to become a DO, then don't, we don't want pompous, presumptuous buffoons in our classes anyway! =)
 
Thanks guys. That helps clarify the issue alot!
 
I have a quick question. Why is it common for people to say that DO schools have the same or even better quality of education as MD schools if the admission standards are lower for DO schools (average MCAT score, GPA, etc. are often lower at DO schools as compared with MD schools)?

Isn't it logical to assume that schools with higher admission standards naturally have higher qualities/levels of education?

Let me handle the next 15 post on this thread right now (before it gets locked) ...

-Troll
-Flame war
-Feeds fire
-Logic post (probably from spiced) ... everyone agrees
-Some pre-Allo comes in and bags on DO schools
-Everyone insults him (myself included)
-Warning is given to chillax or thread will be locked
-No one stops
-Locked

👍Did I miss anything??
 
To be honest, i was skeptical as well, until i went to a DO school.

See, people always say that the DO schools have lower GPA's, lower MCATs, and for the most part, its true. However, the DO schools look at "the whole person." And up until my 4th year of medical school, i really didn't appreciate what that meant. The general idea is as follows: Ultimately, you're in a profession which is 95% CUSTOMER SERVICE. Its the same level of customer service as a restaurant, retail store, etc. If you're not a people person, no matter how smart you are, you're not going to be successful as a doctor. Where do you develop these skills? By not sitting at home studying for 15 hours a day, and then by going out and obtaining life experiences like working in a hospital, having a job, making friends, heck, going out in general.

The trick to being a good doctor isn't knowing more than the other guy, because you'll kill yourself trying to do so, its being nice, friendly, and caring about your patients. THAT is what DO's are looking for. I know personally many of the people on the admissions board for my school, if you're not a people person, they most likely will NOT accept you regardless of your GPA/MCAT (speaking of which, the MCAT is probably one of the worst predictors of success in medicine i've seen in a while).
 
I have a quick question. Why is it common for people to say that DO schools have the same or even better quality of education as MD schools if the admission standards are lower for DO schools (average MCAT score, GPA, etc. are often lower at DO schools as compared with MD schools)?

Isn't it logical to assume that schools with higher admission standards naturally have higher qualities/levels of education?

I find your logic a bit skewed,
The relatively lower statistics in entering classes for DO has less to do with the standard of education received in MD and DO schools, and more to do with the number of applications the MD and DO schools receive each year.

For instance, a DO school like KCUMB may receive 3000 applications , while you see NYMC (new york medical college in Valhalla) receives 10,000 applications each year.

Now, lets assume that about 10% of applicants from each applicant pool have 39 MCAT score. THEN! there are 300 39 mcat scorers from the applicant pool of KCUMB and 1000 39 mcat scorers from applicant pool of NYMC.

Now, Hypothetically lets assume that each school takes in about 500 people each year (I know it is not a realistic number, its just an example), THEN! The NYMC takes 500 out of 1000 39 mcat scorers , and KCUMB takes 300 39 mcat scorers. So, NYMC has no space for eligible candidates who have lower mcat scores , but KCUMB has 200 extra spots left for consideration of other eligible candidates.

This way, KCUMB may have more room for not only 39 mcat scorers, but also other candidates who have exceptional qualities but have scored only 29.

Please know that I am taking KCUMB and NYMC as hypothetical examples to prove my point and the number of applications or applicants in no way reflects what may be true in reality.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if you understand the point I am trying to make in the above argument, you will see that standard of education given in DO and MD schools has nothing to do with the statistics of the entering classes.
The standard of education at each school is dependent upon the staff and faculty, the school's prestige and influence in professional circles. The competency of doctors graduating from a given school is dependent upon where these doctors are sent to learn their stuff practically.

The competency of a given doctor has less to do with the degree he receives (DO or MD) and has more to do with his dedication , persistence and hard work that defines his success in the field of medicine.
 
See, people always say that the DO schools have lower GPA's, lower MCATs, and for the most part, its true. However, the DO schools look at "the whole person." And up until my 4th year of medical school, i really didn't appreciate what that meant. The general idea is as follows: Ultimately, you're in a profession which is 95% CUSTOMER SERVICE. Its the same level of customer service as a restaurant, retail store, etc. If you're not a people person, no matter how smart you are, you're not going to be successful as a doctor. Where do you develop these skills? By not sitting at home studying for 15 hours a day, and then by going out and obtaining life experiences like working in a hospital, having a job, making friends, heck, going out in general.

I haven't started my medical education but let me tell you, I don't think its going to be fun and games and "going out in general" , it will be hard work and some one who wants to be a good doctor needs to study 15 hours a day.


The trick to being a good doctor isn't knowing more than the other guy, because you'll kill yourself trying to do so, its being nice, friendly, and caring about your patients. THAT is what DO's are looking for. I know personally many of the people on the admissions board for my school, if you're not a people person, they most likely will NOT accept you regardless of your GPA/MCAT (speaking of which, the MCAT is probably one of the worst predictors of success in medicine i've seen in a while).

being a good doctor has to do with how competent you are in diagnosing patients' diseases and how you provide patients with effective solutions, bedside manner is important but it is only a part of it. if just being "nice, friendly and caring" did the trick, why even go to a med school? You can just learn that at home.
Also who said you can't be compassionate and caring if you are an MD? and just because you study 15 hours per day does not mean you don't have people skills.

The fact of the matter is DO and MD medical education is more similar than different and rating one to be superior to the other has no place in the objective framework of reality.

It is also a fact that not many people know about DO and this is changing.
 
Saregamapadanis hehe that's an awesome username. You must be a singer.
 
Since the students aren't teaching the classes, there is really no correlation between the students' statistics, and the "quality" of the education.

Saregamapadanis - i believe the poster who said the thing about studying 15 hrs a day was referring to premeds. Just because you get a 4.0 undergrad, and have a 42 MCAT doesn't mean you'll make a good doctor. You need to have a personality too. A large list of ECs, which may have caused your gpa to go down a bit, may show admins that there's more too you than your ability to read and write. This is what DO schools are looking for.
 
Since the students aren't teaching the classes, there is really no correlation between the students' statistics, and the "quality" of the education.

Saregamapadanis - i believe the poster who said the thing about studying 15 hrs a day was referring to premeds. Just because you get a 4.0 undergrad, and have a 42 MCAT doesn't mean you'll make a good doctor. You need to have a personality too. A large list of ECs, which may have caused your gpa to go down a bit, may show admins that there's more too you than your ability to read and write. This is what DO schools are looking for.

Hopefully DO schools won't shun us whose grades are high but ECs/volunteer experience is lacking.
 
Med school curriculum was standardized in the aftermath of the Flexner Report. I think this was in 1925. MD schools started with this, and in order to receive equal accreditation and subsequent practice rights, most DO schools followed. Those that didn't conform (DO and MD) were forced to close.

As far as education quality... there is so much information that you learn in medical school that you will be mostly self-taught. So what you get out of class time really doesn't matter that much. A lot of medical students don't even go to class. They just buy/copy notes or watch the lectures online. And how the classes actually are taught, it is done about the same way. There are the same types of curriculum options in DO and MD schools.

DO schools also typically have a higher average age of matriculation. That means more non-traditional students. So a guy who goes to college with no idea what he wants to do, works for a while, and then comes back wanting to go to medical school will probably not have the same numbers that a guy who knew he wanted to be a doctor from day one.

Some advantages that MD schools have:
- Many have huge health-science centers attached to them. If you want to do a lot of research, you probably have a better chance at an MD school.

- Many have huge teaching hospitals. Less moving around for rotations at MD schools. Is this an advantage? Maybe in terms of convenience, but not necessarily in terms of education and experience quality.

Just because a popular Friday-night Club is hard to get into doesn't mean it has the best music, best drinks, best people- Oft it's horribly crowded, people are rude, drinks are expensive, etc...

Since the students aren't teaching the classes, there is really no correlation between the students' statistics, and the "quality" of the education.

The competency of a given doctor has less to do with the degree he receives (DO or MD) and has more to do with his dedication , persistence and hard work that defines his success in the field of medicine.

I haven't started my medical education but let me tell you, I don't think its going to be fun and games and "going out in general" , it will be hard work...

...The fact of the matter is DO and MD medical education is more similar than different and rating one to be superior to the other has no place in the objective framework of reality.

Well said. I don't have any more to add here. Good work, guys! 🙂
 
I have a quick question. Why is it common for people to say that DO schools have the same or even better quality of education as MD schools if the admission standards are lower for DO schools (average MCAT score, GPA, etc. are often lower at DO schools as compared with MD schools)?

Isn't it logical to assume that schools with higher admission standards naturally have higher qualities/levels of education?

A few resources for more info about your questions:

Hope this helps!
bth
 
Saregamapadanis hehe that's an awesome username. You must be a singer.

Heh, if you hear me sing you would probably run away from the 😱 . But yea, Indian classical music rocks man! 😀👍

Saregamapadanis - i believe the poster who said the thing about studying 15 hrs a day was referring to premeds. Just because you get a 4.0 undergrad, and have a 42 MCAT doesn't mean you'll make a good doctor. You need to have a personality too. A large list of ECs, which may have caused your gpa to go down a bit, may show admins that there's more too you than your ability to read and write. This is what DO schools are looking for.

yea, I see what he is saying and I agree to that, numbers on one's transcript are not good determinants of how one solves problems in stressful real life situations.

Hopefully DO schools won't shun us whose grades are high but ECs/volunteer experience is lacking.

I am just a layman here but I got the impression that the overall focus of any admissions committee is on determining whether a given candidate is capable of handling medical school. As long as we show through our experiences that we are capable of handling medical school and know what we are going into for the future... we are good , I think.
 
When looking at DO (or any other) school quality, the number one thing to ask yourself is, "Do they put out good doctors?" Why is that the top concern? Because every doctor that ever treats you has passed the national medical license examinations, whether it be COMLEX or USMLE. Those tests are the big equalizers and indicate that the academic quality really doesn't suffer all that much from one school to the next.

Like someone else mentioned much earlier, medical education is pretty much standardized. Patients really don't care what school you went to or what your stats as a premed were. They just want someone who is friendly, courteous, non-condescending, who will take the time to listen to them and make them feel better. Other than the very few patients suffering from narcissistic personality disorder, nobody asks you what your MCAT score and undergrad GPA were. Patients just don't care. So... ask yourself what kind of doctor the school is putting out rather than how high their stats were. That's how you measure DO school quality.
 
Sorry, got to get this off my chest: In my opinion, the whole debate about DO vs MD is really infantile. Everyone thinks their school is the best, and the other side is fundamentally flawed in some way. Which is just stupid. Its the exact same thing for undergrad, just because someone goes to Harvard they think they're inherently better than somebody that goes to their state school, when in fact we all know (or we should) that its what you do and not where you go that matters. Exact same thing for medical school. You could go to the absolute best MD school in the country and still not match because you're an idiot. You could go to the best DO school and also not match, again because you aren't good at medicine. All that really matters is what you do at school, regardless of the school, and how you take advantage of the opportunities at your school. If you're good at medicine, it'll show, and no amount of looking down at DO schools because of their lower GPA/MCAT requirements, or looking down at MD schools because you think the majority of MD's are uptight neurotic egotistical psychos is going to change the fact that there might be a DO or an MD from a less well-known school who is just better at medicine than you are. Long post I know, but I needed to say it somewhere.
 
Sorry, got to get this off my chest: In my opinion, the whole debate about DO vs MD is really infantile. Everyone thinks their school is the best, and the other side is fundamentally flawed in some way. Which is just stupid. Its the exact same thing for undergrad, just because someone goes to Harvard they think they're inherently better than somebody that goes to their state school, when in fact we all know (or we should) that its what you do and not where you go that matters. Exact same thing for medical school. You could go to the absolute best MD school in the country and still not match because you're an idiot. You could go to the best DO school and also not match, again because you aren't good at medicine. All that really matters is what you do at school, regardless of the school, and how you take advantage of the opportunities at your school. If you're good at medicine, it'll show, and no amount of looking down at DO schools because of their lower GPA/MCAT requirements, or looking down at MD schools because you think the majority of MD's are uptight neurotic egotistical psychos is going to change the fact that there might be a DO or an MD from a less well-known school who is just better at medicine than you are. Long post I know, but I needed to say it somewhere.

Deserves a sticky
 
I disagree. Before I read, did my own research, I wasn't aware of what a DO was until and advisor suggested that career option. I don't think these threads should be automatically closed because I think many above provided good explanations and can shed light on questions or concerns people may have.

And even if shoyt is trolling... he/she doesn't have many posts (true enough, been a SDN member since 5/06), but beside the point, may have a valid concern about the differences/similarities of MD's and DO's. Good job to most of you who posted and put together intelligent responses. 👍 (and not just scpod this time 😀)
 
a sticky means it's put up top where it can be seen all the time, instead of falling down the list when no one adds to the thread.
 
DO schools have more requirments to apply. such as most schools REQUIRE a letter from a physician. MD schools dont require this. So it evens out i guess. i dunno
 
Fabu1ous, "these threads" aren't automatically closed, but they *are* closely watched for signs of degrading into a flame war and obvious trolling (with subsequent feeding). As long as this one doesn't head that way, it will remain open for reasonable intelligent discussion that does not degrade either degree. Rest assured, this thread is being followed closely.
 
I wouldn't be surprised that when most of us graduate from medical school (D.O. or M.D.) the stats, and by this I mean MCAT/GPA, for matriculation between D.O. and M.D. schools were pretty similar... with some exceptions, hopkins etc.
 
I wouldn't be surprised that when most of us graduate from medical school (D.O. or M.D.) the stats, and by this I mean MCAT/GPA, for matriculation between D.O. and M.D. schools were pretty similar... with some exceptions, hopkins etc.


I do too 👍 I mean if you look at schools like Western with a avg gpa of 3.5 and MCAT of 28 ... you have to see where this is going. I also heard somewhere that by the time we all finish residency n' such (2015ish) that DO's will make up 15% of practicing doctors. It's just going to keep getting better and better from here. Especially, in my opinion, if the AOA keeps cranking out solid DO residencies!
 
To be honest, i was skeptical as well, until i went to a DO school.

See, people always say that the DO schools have lower GPA's, lower MCATs, and for the most part, its true. However, the DO schools look at "the whole person." And up until my 4th year of medical school, i really didn't appreciate what that meant. The general idea is as follows: Ultimately, you're in a profession which is 95% CUSTOMER SERVICE. Its the same level of customer service as a restaurant, retail store, etc. If you're not a people person, no matter how smart you are, you're not going to be successful as a doctor. Where do you develop these skills? By not sitting at home studying for 15 hours a day, and then by going out and obtaining life experiences like working in a hospital, having a job, making friends, heck, going out in general.

The trick to being a good doctor isn't knowing more than the other guy, because you'll kill yourself trying to do so, its being nice, friendly, and caring about your patients. THAT is what DO's are looking for. I know personally many of the people on the admissions board for my school, if you're not a people person, they most likely will NOT accept you regardless of your GPA/MCAT (speaking of which, the MCAT is probably one of the worst predictors of success in medicine i've seen in a while).

That's a very interesting perspective.
 
I would generally agree with most of the posts, however... (dont take this the wrong way, im shooting for osteopathic as well) osteopaths have a generally lower residency placement into allopathic residencies. now, of course osteopaths only make up about 10% of entire physician workforce, it still extremely difficult for a osteopath into a gen surgery (its an example) residency over an allopath....the allopathic will almost always have priority in the "better" residencies...that would be one of the flaws of a DO versus MD in my opinion...just because the osteopaths are not as well established as allopath programs
 
I would generally agree with most of the posts, however... (dont take this the wrong way, im shooting for osteopathic as well) osteopaths have a generally lower residency placement into allopathic residencies. now, of course osteopaths only make up about 10% of entire physician workforce, it still extremely difficult for a osteopath into a gen surgery (its an example) residency over an allopath....the allopathic will almost always have priority in the "better" residencies...that would be one of the flaws of a DO versus MD in my opinion...just because the osteopaths are not as well established as allopath programs

You are quite right!! I think currently 'osteopaths' have a 0% chance of matching an Allo residency. Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine on the other hand ... match into Allo residencies about half of the time. 👍
 
ha ok..when i say osteopaths, i mean osteopathic...as allopaths are allopathic......to clear up any confusion
 
People need to stop calling D.O.s osteopaths. It is an outdated term. I am going to be an osteopathic physician and not a "bone setter." Anal yes, but at least the D.O. community should be able to get their terminology right.
 
People need to stop calling D.O.s osteopaths. It is an outdated term. I am going to be an osteopathic physician and not a "bone setter." Anal yes, but at least the D.O. community should be able to get their terminology right.

It's not 'anal' to go to medical school for 4 years to become a doctor, then wanting to be called 'doctor' after.
 
I would generally agree with most of the posts, however... (dont take this the wrong way, im shooting for osteopathic as well) osteopaths have a generally lower residency placement into allopathic residencies. now, of course osteopaths only make up about 10% of entire physician workforce, it still extremely difficult for a osteopath into a gen surgery (its an example) residency over an allopath....the allopathic will almost always have priority in the "better" residencies...that would be one of the flaws of a DO versus MD in my opinion...just because the osteopaths are not as well established as allopath programs

Ehh, this post is a little misleading. I sincerely doubt a program will favor an MD with a 215 on Step 1 vs. a DO with a 240. If scores and grades are equal, the MD will statistically have a better chance, true. But if that MD is a douche, I doubt he'll beat out the DO as well. Saying allopathic students have priority strictly because of their degree, without any mention of stats of applicants, is a bit one-dimensional of an analysis.

Is it maybe true of plastic surgery? Probably, but realize that no MD with a 225 is going to bother applying. Plus, DOs are probably programmed not to even bother going for things like integrated plastics, so the amount of applicants that are DOs are pretty low. Factor in the 50% match rate (not sure if its 50, but its close) for MDs, and its not surprising there aren't many DOs in it (which might have more to do with the factors I listed than with their degree).
 
...Saying allopathic students have priority strictly because of their degree, without any mention of stats of applicants, is a bit one-dimensional of an analysis....

I was gonna make that same point earlier but got tied up with something else. What some people fail to think about is that 75% of the US MD graduates won't be gettting those uber-wonderful, super-competitive residencies either. There are around 21,000 1st year MD residency slots per year. There were only about 3000 DO graduates last year and about half went to MD residencies.
 
alot of DO's want to go into family medicine, this could skew the data a bit as alot of md pre-meds I have spoke to don't want anything to do with fm.
 
I have a quick question. Why is it common for people to say that DO schools have the same or even better quality of education as MD schools if the admission standards are lower for DO schools (average MCAT score, GPA, etc. are often lower at DO schools as compared with MD schools)?

Isn't it logical to assume that schools with higher admission standards naturally have higher qualities/levels of education?

Many of the DO school stats are on the rise. Many of the older schools have comparable or even higher stats than lower tier MD schools like Wayne state, Howard University, Marehouse, etc... As more qualified applicants apply to DO the admission requirements will go up as well.
 
I'm confident that a little residual bias exists against DO's applying to MD programs. "Accpet your own" is a hard instinct to overcome.

That being said, I think the bias can range from non-existant to significant depending on what program you are talking about.

In general (and these are only my opinions, no data to back it up...), I think the vast vast majority of family practice programs aren't going to care about the degree difference at all. The majority of ER, Ob/gyn, and internal medicine programs are not going to care at all. A few of the more competitive ER and IM programs probably have a small to moderate bias. Not sure what to think about fellowship positions. Psych I have no clue about. Anesthesiology is probably about half not caring and half having a small bias. Surgery seems to be all over the board - it isn't nearly as competitive as it once was, yet some programs still remain uber competitive. I'd guess it is much like gas... about 50/50 with the bias in that 50% ranging from small to significant, so there it really probably matters where you apply. Rads probably has a small to moderate bias across the board as it is a fairly competitive game numbers-wise. Maybe a 5-10 point board difference bias at many programs, no bias at a few, and with some being very difficult for DO's to match. Optho is probably very similar to rads. ENT and Urology probably fall in that general range as well. Ortho is fairly uniform in its DO bias, and rightfully so. I haven't looked at the numbers in a while, but this may be the one area where there are fewer students per residency slot on the AOA side vs. the MD side. If the route is so much easier for a DO to become an ortho and they don't accept MD applicants, I can see why the MD side is reluctant to accept DO applicants. Integrated plastics is probably a very very tough road for a DO applicant. An easier (but not easy) path would be to go gen surgery as a strong applicant and really shine there... and duke it out for the fellowship.
 
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