DO Students hating on DOs

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If it bothers you so much why don't you say something? Maybe these persons don't realize how annoying they sound.
 
I've only heard one person at my school ever say the 'couldn't get into a MD program' comment during an OMM review, and everyone just sort of stared at her awkwardly and NO one agreed. Granted, I know various people in my class who got into both and chose DO, a lot of people who only applied DO, even more who picked the school because it was the best environment for their family, etc.

However, I have heard a lot of people 'gripe' about the 'osteopathic' aspect of the education, but I think that's pretty understandable. I like OMM (a lot), but I'll be the first one to admit that it's SUPER frustrating to have to sit through a 2 hour OMM lab when you know you have 6 hours of anatomy, biochem, and physio studying to do for an upcoming set of exams.

Also, I don't fault anyone who came DO, tried OMM with an open mind, and doesn't like it. It's a subject in school ... not liking it doesn't make them a bad doctor or even a bad DO (imo).

Furthermore, I think medical students are always going to complain. We have to do SO much studying, work, testing, lab work, etc, that it's only natural to complain, and sometimes people say some pretty harsh things while frustrated and overwhelmed with work.

However, I do agree that blatant self-mocking is a bit odd.
 
nash989 said:
i asked him, what are you going to say when ppl ask you why you became a DO. he said he would tell him the same rehashed idea of liking the "holistic approach, blah blah" while knowing deep down inside he couldn't get into a MD school. :/
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um gtfo and go to the caribs..?

-proud future DO.
 
I wouldn't stress too much with these people. They are projecting their own sense of low self-esteem on to you and your classmates. Don't get frustrated with them; they just need to take a self-inventory and build up their own self-esteem. If you go on the offensive against them, they will only get more defensive and amplify the self-defeatist attitude.

Instead, focus on the positives like DOs have the freedom to apply to both MD and DO residencies while our MD colleagues don't.
 
You turkeys,

Do me a favour and consider a few things for a moment. Medical school, allopathic or osteopathic, is an ends to means of becoming a physician. Agreed, good...keep following. Allopathic schools have higher standards for admission, osteopathic schools have lower standards for admissions, thus the average applicant has an easier time getting into an osteopathic school. Many people set out with the goal of attending an allopathic education but it does not always work out that way. Then they elect to attend an osteopathic school. This is a common scenario. People who claim that their choice to attend an osteopathic school had nothing to do with the 'ease' of getting into an allopathic program are kidding themselves or took an offer for scholarship money or did not give themselves the opportunity to embark on the alternative. Given the choice, negating scholarship money or a love interest or some social strain, any rational person would have chosen an allopathic institution...to do otherwise would make no f'ing sense.

With that said, I'm completely satisfied with my education at an osteopathic school (minus OPP, OMT, OMM whatever you call it). There really is not a difference between an allopatic vs. osteopathic education, with the exception of a few credits of "osteopathic medicine." There is no special osteopathic approach to real medicine...oncology is oncology, cardiology is cardiology, internal med is internal med when comparing the two. Most osteopathic students never practice the "osteopathic" portion of their training. And this is for a good reason, it's not feasible, it's not evidence based medicine [trust me it's not, even if you think the JAOA is a reliable source] and there is not a true demand for it, unless it's artificially created [like chiropractic medicine or some random alternative medicine]. I harbor no resentment towards my peers who embrace the "osteopathic" portion of our education, I just question there critical thinking skills, and primary motive for doing so.
 
peoplespeep said:
You turkeys,

Do me a favour and consider a few things for a moment. Medical school, allopathic or osteopathic, is an ends to means of becoming a physician. Agreed, good...keep following. Allopathic schools have higher standards for admission, osteopathic schools have lower standards for admissions, thus the average applicant has an easier time getting into an osteopathic school. Many people set out with the goal of attending an allopathic education but it does not always work out that way. Then they elect to attend an osteopathic school. This is a common scenario. People who claim that their choice to attend an osteopathic school had nothing to do with the 'ease' of getting into an allopathic program are kidding themselves or took an offer for scholarship money or did not give themselves the opportunity to embark on the alternative. Given the choice, negating scholarship money or a love interest or some social strain, any rational person would have chosen an allopathic institution...to do otherwise would make no f'ing sense.

With that said, I'm completely satisfied with my education at an osteopathic school (minus OPP, OMT, OMM whatever you call it). There really is not a difference between an allopatic vs. osteopathic education, with the exception of a few credits of "osteopathic medicine." There is no special osteopathic approach to real medicine...oncology is oncology, cardiology is cardiology, internal med is internal med when comparing the two. Most osteopathic students never practice the "osteopathic" portion of their training. And this is for a good reason, it's not feasible, it's not evidence based medicine [trust me it's not, even if you think the JAOA is a reliable source] and there is not a true demand for it, unless it's artificially created [like chiropractic medicine or some random alternative medicine]. I harbor no resentment towards my peers who embrace the "osteopathic" portion of our education, I just question there critical thinking skills, and primary motive for doing so.
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Now I heard alot of comments on OMM. I'm no diagnostician but do you believe you can actually diagnosis and treat disease with it. I've heard pretty much one side of the coin from both my ex and my sister. Both getting their DO. Placebo effect?
 
nash989 said:
Obviously I'm frustrated enough to vent on a public forum, but do you get irritated by those ppl who say they got into a DO school because they couldn't get into a MD school? I mean even if it's true, why the defeatist attitude? They'll say stuff like "DOs weren't smart enough to get into a real medical school (ie MD) so they went DO" or something stupid like that. Another line is "OMM is our punishment for slacking off in college".

Even though these are ppl I am fond of, i'm starting to get irritated by their attitude. What the heck man, if you can't deal w/ being an osteopathic doctor then get the **** out. go cry boo hoo to your mom.

You know it's one thing when some ignorant MD student starts mouthing off, but it's another when a DO student from a DO school starts self-deprecating on his pedigree. I wish I could smack him a bit, but I'm not that confrontational in real life.
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I lol'd find the bolded part. Many DO students aren't interested at all in OMM, and they know US MD=DO >>>>Carib, so they opted for DO instead of carib.

I think a big difference is the manner in which they are saying these things: if it's in a self-depracating way then it's all in good fun, but if it's serious and bitter, then they sound like losers to me.
 
patel2 said:
I think a big difference is the manner in which they are saying these things: if it's in a self-depracating way then it's all in good fun, but if it's serious and bitter, then they sound like losers to me.
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Agreed. Poking fun at oneself, cracking OMM jokes, etc, is one thing (and perfectly normal), but actual self-hating is something else and extreme.
 
peoplespeep said:
You turkeys,

Do me a favour and consider a few things for a moment. Medical school, allopathic or osteopathic, is an ends to means of becoming a physician. Agreed, good...keep following. Allopathic schools have higher standards for admission, osteopathic schools have lower standards for admissions, thus the average applicant has an easier time getting into an osteopathic school. Many people set out with the goal of attending an allopathic education but it does not always work out that way. Then they elect to attend an osteopathic school. This is a common scenario. People who claim that their choice to attend an osteopathic school had nothing to do with the 'ease' of getting into an allopathic program are kidding themselves or took an offer for scholarship money or did not give themselves the opportunity to embark on the alternative. Given the choice, negating scholarship money or a love interest or some social strain, any rational person would have chosen an allopathic institution...to do otherwise would make no f'ing sense.

With that said, I'm completely satisfied with my education at an osteopathic school (minus OPP, OMT, OMM whatever you call it). There really is not a difference between an allopatic vs. osteopathic education, with the exception of a few credits of "osteopathic medicine." There is no special osteopathic approach to real medicine...oncology is oncology, cardiology is cardiology, internal med is internal med when comparing the two. Most osteopathic students never practice the "osteopathic" portion of their training. And this is for a good reason, it's not feasible, it's not evidence based medicine [trust me it's not, even if you think the JAOA is a reliable source] and there is not a true demand for it, unless it's artificially created [like chiropractic medicine or some random alternative medicine]. I harbor no resentment towards my peers who embrace the "osteopathic" portion of our education, I just question there critical thinking skills, and primary motive for doing so.
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Well put, and agreed.
Just be prepared for the pre-med and student wing of the osteopathic thought police to criticize you heavily for your outrageously rational statements.
 
peoplespeep said:
You turkeys,

Do me a favour and consider a few things for a moment. Medical school, allopathic or osteopathic, is an ends to means of becoming a physician. Agreed, good...keep following. Allopathic schools have higher standards for admission, osteopathic schools have lower standards for admissions, thus the average applicant has an easier time getting into an osteopathic school. Many people set out with the goal of attending an allopathic education but it does not always work out that way. Then they elect to attend an osteopathic school. This is a common scenario. People who claim that their choice to attend an osteopathic school had nothing to do with the 'ease' of getting into an allopathic program are kidding themselves or took an offer for scholarship money or did not give themselves the opportunity to embark on the alternative. Given the choice, negating scholarship money or a love interest or some social strain, any rational person would have chosen an allopathic institution...to do otherwise would make no f'ing sense.

With that said, I'm completely satisfied with my education at an osteopathic school (minus OPP, OMT, OMM whatever you call it). There really is not a difference between an allopatic vs. osteopathic education, with the exception of a few credits of "osteopathic medicine." There is no special osteopathic approach to real medicine...oncology is oncology, cardiology is cardiology, internal med is internal med when comparing the two. Most osteopathic students never practice the "osteopathic" portion of their training. And this is for a good reason, it's not feasible, it's not evidence based medicine [trust me it's not, even if you think the JAOA is a reliable source] and there is not a true demand for it, unless it's artificially created [like chiropractic medicine or some random alternative medicine]. I harbor no resentment towards my peers who embrace the "osteopathic" portion of our education, I just question there critical thinking skills, and primary motive for doing so.
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I'm with this guy, I would have taken allopathic in a second. But even more vital to me than allopathic vs DO was the location. So when I got into places in the midwest where I had no interest in going I rapidly punched out my DO paperwork, got into a program in the northeast and that was that. It is an ends to a means. And its one I really love now, but I love my school for its education. The philosophy is just a tinting that has very little effect on me cause you either already feel that way or dont, but it wont change how you practice. It'll just annoy people who dont embrace it and make people who do smile smugly but in the end philosophy teaches little. Its the actual education that matters, and its the same.

to be fair, i find some use for OMM. But it needs to be properly compartmentalized. A surgeon should only be thinking about it for post op stuff (there is one truly evidence based study i have seen and thats that mobilization of the intestines post abdominal surgery lowers the rate of paralyzed ileus from 7% to 1.something%.) A family doc could use it whenever they feel like. ER? Yea forget about OMM. IM? Use it for a diagnostic check for out of whack autonomics, but still trust your machines and labs more. Its just more information to carry with you.
 
peoplespeep said:
I harbor no resentment towards my peers who embrace the "osteopathic" portion of our education, I just question there critical thinking skills, and primary motive for doing so.
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Best quote of the entire thing...:laugh:
 
DocEspana said:
...to be fair, i find some use for OMM. But it needs to be properly compartmentalized. A surgeon should only be thinking about it for post op stuff (there is one truly evidence based study i have seen and thats that mobilization of the intestines post abdominal surgery lowers the rate of paralyzed ileus from 7% to 1.something%.) A family doc could use it whenever they feel like. ER? Yea forget about OMM. IM? Use it for a diagnostic check for out of whack autonomics, but still trust your machines and labs more. Its just more information to carry with you.
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And you can break out the OMM skillz when you need to earn some extra pocket money or to pay off your loans faster (actually presented in a OPP lecture ppt at my school).
 
wanna_be_do said:
Well put, and agreed.
Just be prepared for the pre-med and student wing of the osteopathic thought police to criticize you heavily for your outrageously rational statements.
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Jesus. People chose schools for a ton of reasons. Claiming that 100% of people would have OBVIOUSLY taken the Allo route if given the chance is absolutely irrational, improbable, and you calling this outrageously rational demonstrates the continual bias you show on these boards with just about every post (anxiously awaits the 'no, I'm proud to be a DO and my DO education, I just ...' response).

However shocking it may sound to some ... people chose DO programs for various reasons; people get into both and chose DO (cover your ears, I know); people enjoy the OMM component; and there are certain people who do 'identify' with the 'philosophy' (real, fake, impractical, whatever else).

Just because you feel one way, doesn't mean others don't feel differently. If you want to make the argument that it's better to chose the Allo path for residency purposes, rotations, recognition, whatever else, then that's fine, but that's not what the individual (or yourself) are claiming here and the assumptions are rampant and asinine. So I guess that makes me the 'crazed' wing of osteopathic medical students, and you the self-hating DO ATTENDING.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Jesus. People chose schools for a ton of reasons. Claiming that 100% of people would have OBVIOUSLY taken the Allo route if given the chance is absolutely irrational, improbable, and you calling this outrageously rational demonstrates the continual bias you show on these boards with just about every post (anxiously awaits the 'no, I'm proud to be a DO and my DO education, I just ...' response).

However shocking it may sound to some ... people chose DO programs for various reasons; people get into both and chose DO (cover your ears, I know); people enjoy the OMM component; and there are certain people who do 'identify' with the 'philosophy' (real, fake, impractical, whatever else).

Just because you feel one way, doesn't mean others don't feel differently. If you want to make the argument that it's better to chose the Allo path for residency purposes, rotations, recognition, whatever else, then that's fine, but that's not what the individual (or yourself) are claiming here and the assumptions are rampant and asinine. So I guess that makes me the 'crazed' wing of osteopathic medical students, and you the self-hating DO ATTENDING.
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I don't know jagger. People do have their own reasons for choosing a school but if they were accepted to an MD school and a DO school, both of which fit their criteria for location, cost, etc., and both brought about that same gut feeling, how many do you think would take the DO acceptance? Given that so few osteo grads actually employ OMM, I'd guess that most would grab the MD acceptance and run with it.
 
csmittyB said:
I don't know jagger. People do have their own reasons for choosing a school but if they were accepted to an MD school and a DO school, both of which fit their criteria for location, cost, etc., and both brought about that same gut feeling, how many do you think would take the DO acceptance? Given that so few osteo grads actually employ OMM, I'd guess that most would grab the MD acceptance and run with it.
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If you equalize essentially every OTHER variable in the equation - fit, location, cost, and gut feeling, then I'm sure the 'final' variable (DO v MD) would have a lot more weight. Furthermore, if the degree designation is something that's really important to someone - pick MD 10 times out of 10. God bless; no sweat off my back. However, you find me a situation where absolutely EVERYTHING between the two schools, albeit the degree designation, is identical for a given applicant, and then I'll answer this hypothetical.
 
JaggerPlate said:
If you equalize essentially every OTHER variable in the equation - fit, location, cost, and gut feeling, then I'm sure the 'final' variable (DO v MD) would have a lot more weight. Furthermore, if the degree designation is something that's really important to someone - pick MD 10 times out of 10. God bless; no sweat off my back. However, you find me a situation where absolutely EVERYTHING between the two schools, albeit the degree designation, is identical for a given applicant, and then I'll answer this hypothetical.
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If a person is accepted to both the Michigan State MD school and the Michigan State DO school. Which do you think most people would pick? (I'm assuming that they are both in the same area and have the same tuition. I could be wrong as I didn't apply to either) This is the best example I can think of.
 
csmittyB said:
If a person is accepted to both the Michigan State MD school and the Michigan State DO school. Which do you think most people would pick? (I'm assuming that they are both in the same area and have the same tuition. I could be wrong as I didn't apply to either) This is the best example I can think of.
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Aren't the campuses technically in different locations and cost different amounts?

Granted, I understand what you're getting at. I think it's really going to be a personal decision, and if you really did equalize everything else and just strictly asked someone 'do you want to be a MD or DO,' you'd probably get more responses for MD.

I think my point is that this is never actually the case, and people do chose schools (DO included) for a variety of different reasons - location, cost, fit, and, in certain cases, people attend DO school because they wanted to attend DO school. Furthermore, you probably will get people who would respond 'DO' to the first question for a variety of reasons, and making bold assumptions one way or another just isn't helpful.
 
Not all, but I would say that many or even a majority of DO students probably went DO because they didn't get accepted to their MD first choice. But let's even say most went DO because they didn't get into any MD schools - MD and DO patient outcomes are the same. These two things taken together don't say anything about the quality of DO students, but rather about the quality of the acceptance criteria at MD schools.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Aren't the campuses technically in different locations and cost different amounts?

Granted, I understand what you're getting at. I think it's really going to be a personal decision, and if you really did equalize everything else and just strictly asked someone 'do you want to be a MD or DO,' you'd probably get more responses for MD.

I think my point is that this is never actually the case, and people do chose schools (DO included) for a variety of different reasons - location, cost, fit, and, in certain cases, people attend DO school because they wanted to attend DO school. Furthermore, you probably will get people who would respond 'DO' to the first question for a variety of reasons, and making bold assumptions one way or another just isn't helpful.
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I don't disagree with you. I'm where I am only because it was the cheapest school I got into.

I'm just saying that those who truly want to be a DO and would not go to medical school if they couldn't earn that DO degree are extremely rare (they are also the ones likely to be the future leaders of the AOA and saying that DOs are the same as MDs or better). I think most people in DO schools are there because they want to become a physician and would have gone to an USMD school if one had fit their criteria.
 
I don't buy the whole "philosophy" argument. "DO's = MD is the mantra, but we have a better philosophy to boot!" Seems like the kid that didn't get picked for the basketball team and says, "That's ok, I didn't even WANT to play basketball anyway!" I'm in complete agreement that DO's are equivalent to MD's minus the OMM component that most practitioners will never use anyway. Trying to claim some alternative, holistic "philosophy" just seems to be grasping at straws, IMO.

And I'm of the persuasion that location/cost aside, a majority of people would choose MD over DO; barring, of course, those that want family practice and maybe IM.
 
Slack3r said:
I don't buy the whole "philosophy" argument. "DO's = MD is the mantra, but we have a better philosophy to boot!" Seems like the kid that didn't get picked for the basketball team and says, "That's ok, I didn't even WANT to play basketball anyway!" I'm in complete agreement that DO's are equivalent to MD's minus the OMM component that most practitioners will never use anyway. Trying to claim some alternative, holistic "philosophy" just seems to be grasping at straws, IMO.

And I'm of the persuasion that location/cost aside, a majority of people would choose MD over DO; barring, of course, those that want family practice and maybe IM.
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I think a lot of people, DOs included, are frustrated by the stance that DO = MD when we (DO) want it to be (i.e. practice rights, entrance into ACGME residencies, etc) but it's "different and better" when we want to be unique, attract applicants, and explain the existence to those who don't understand.

Like others are saying, I think most people set out to become PHYSICIANS, not MD or DOs, and the vast majority of people I've encountered in both programs don't want to be MDs or DOs, they want to be surgeons, dermatologists, OBs, Hospitalists, etc.

Having said that, I'm definitely one of the people who is very pro-DO and like the OMM component. However, I chose/applied to schools based on cost, fit, location, etc ... and didn't really take MD/DO into too much consideration. My top few were a mix between both. However, I'm very happy where I'm at, very proud to be a DO, etc.
 
JaggerPlate said:
I think a lot of people, DOs included, are frustrated by the stance that DO = MD when we (DO) want it to be (i.e. practice rights, entrance into ACGME residencies, etc) but it's "different and better" when we want to be unique, attract applicants, and explain the existence to those who don't understand.
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I originally wrote this, then deleted it for the previous post. It is rather frustrating, and almost laughable.
 
Slack3r said:
I originally wrote this, then deleted it for the previous post. It is rather frustrating, and almost laughable.
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I don't think I'd consider it laughable - laughable would be if DOs didn't meet the standards to play in the ACGME/ABMS game, but still wanted to be different AND do so (see DCs, NDs, DNPs, ODs, etc). Definitely hypocritical, ironic, indicative of the disconnect between the AOA and the majority of practicing DOs, but keep in mind that most DOs aren't walking down the halls of their ACGME University residency programs proclaiming their superiority compared to the MD counterparts (which simultaneously depending the the MD residency to practice). They are probably doing the same internal eye roll.
 
JaggerPlate said:
I don't think I'd consider it laughable - laughable would be if DOs didn't meet the standards to play in the ACGME/ABMS game, but still wanted to be different AND do so (see DCs, NDs, DNPs, ODs, etc). Definitely hypocritical, ironic, indicative of the disconnect between the AOA and the majority of practicing DOs, but keep in mind that most DOs aren't walking down the halls of their ACGME University residency programs proclaiming their superiority compared to the MD counterparts (which simultaneously depending the the MD residency to practice). They are probably doing the same internal eye roll.
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these threads are much more endearing when they deal with "janitors" vs "custodians"
 
elftown said:
Whether there is currently a difference in philosophy or not, I think it is important to stay mindful of why DOs exist in the first place. This is one of the reasons I prefer DO.
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Please don't use that argument. It was relevant a century ago but not today.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Aren't the campuses technically in different locations and cost different amounts?
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I'm pretty sure the DO and MD students take classes together at MSU, so they're not separate. I think there's also another campus in Detroit and I don't know if it's both MD and DO or just DO there. I'd be surprised if the tuition is different.
 
JaggerPlate said:
I don't think I'd consider it laughable - laughable would be if DOs didn't meet the standards to play in the ACGME/ABMS game, but still wanted to be different AND do so (see DCs, NDs, DNPs, ODs, etc). Definitely hypocritical, ironic, indicative of the disconnect between the AOA and the majority of practicing DOs, but keep in mind that most DOs aren't walking down the halls of their ACGME University residency programs proclaiming their superiority compared to the MD counterparts (which simultaneously depending the the MD residency to practice). They are probably doing the same internal eye roll.
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I agree totally. Regarding the semantic style, i believe we should call ourself DO physicians, period. Medicare CMS has qualified DC, OD as chiropractic physician and optometric physician.

We should use osteopathic emphasis in the context of discussion allopathy, osteopathy and other forms of medicine. I stand for DO as doctor of osteopathic medicine/ physician.
 
csmittyB said:
I don't know jagger. People do have their own reasons for choosing a school but if they were accepted to an MD school and a DO school, both of which fit their criteria for location, cost, etc., and both brought about that same gut feeling, how many do you think would take the DO acceptance? Given that so few osteo grads actually employ OMM, I'd guess that most would grab the MD acceptance and run with it.
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This argument is made because MD schools function on a continuum but you can draw clear distinctions between MD and DO schools. The same generalized argument could be made as a slight to any MD school. For instance, let's say Harvard was in Reno, costed the same as University of Nevada, had the same faculty, the women were equally attractive, the location was the same, the urinals in the bathroom were both made by Sloan, the janitorial staff was equally equipped, who would choose University of Nevada over Harvard? All things being equal, everybody chooses Harvard, right? Those U of N students really are there because they had to settle, and that U of N obviously isn't all that great because all things being equal, there are probably 50 schools every student would choose before them. In the real world, things aren't equal, which I think people have emphasized. Even if things were equal, a lot of things also depend on the individual. Do they want to do PM&R? They may prefer DO if all things are equal. Do they want to do sports medicine? They may prefer DO. I know people where this is the case (why do you think people end up doing OMM fellowships?)

I'm interested in psychiatry. To say that if all things were equal I'd choose derm if I could would be nonsense. Just because some people would choose MD if they could doesn't mean everyone would. Obviously a lot of people would, but it is a sweeping generalization that you will constantly hear people like wanna_be_md harp on and it gets old. It gets really old.
 
elftown said:
Your sentence can be used the other way around:

"I'm just saying that those who truly want to be an MD and would not go to medical school if they couldn't earn that MD degree are extremely rare ..."
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I don't think it is the same. Otherwise there wouldn't be schools full of Americans in the Caribbean getting a MD*, when they could be/should be here getting a DO.
 
I figure OMM is pretty good in a concierge practice.
 
Unlike most people, I was fascinated with OMM before I actually applied and I thought it would be pretty cool to learn it. With that said, heres what I think.

The advantages of MD over DO are that:
1) you have an advantage when it comes to a competitive residency
2) people won't question you about what MD means
3) you won't get hated on by the premeds lol

The advantages of DO over MD are that:
1) there are more places to do residencies because DO's have their own residencies that exclude MD's
2) there is a rich history behind how it started and you can take pride in it
3) you get to touch people all day... without looking like a weirdo haha

But I'm kinda biased because I really really like OMM.
 
And plus, imagine you're on a hot date and they wanna see what makes DO's unique. Be like "baby, take off your clothes and ill show you what makes us unique" LOL
 
A lot of med students complain about OMM.

But then, a lot of med students complain, period. Complain about missing American Idol to study for neuro, complain about not having a life, complain about smelling like anatomy lab, complain about having to wake up early to go to required 'skills preps'.

I've heard a lot of my classmates make jokes that sound pretty much like what you listed. I take it for what it is, just venting frustration at having another class to worry about. But I do think bringing the magician tools was going a little far (the professors probably wouldn't be too amused either)
 
JaggerPlate said:
Aren't the campuses technically in different locations and cost different amounts?
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2/3s of both schools are at the same campus in East Lansing. The costs (average debts) are nearly identical. I'm at East Lansing, there are plenty of people who got into both and choose one or the other for various reasons.

The reasons usually involve: MD degree prestige, 2nd year curriculum differences (DO - Systems vs MD - PBL), the "DO difference", OMM is cool, I didn't really know what a DO/OMM was, generally different personality types between the two schools, rankings

Note: these do not represent my reasons for choosing COM
 
Very interesting topic and arguments all the way around ---and I used to have some of the selfsame arguments as a first or second year....I kept asking 'What makes D.O.'s different?' meaning "What makes us different enough to justify having a separate branch of medicine with our own schools, licensing exams, residencies, meetings, national association, etc.?".

The answer I usually got, and it varied on age of the responder, was OMM and 'We look at the whole patient'.....Well, fine, but a lot of MD FP's look at the whole patient also, as well as a lot of the specialists. I also really didn't see a whole lot of difference in the way the D.O./M.D. specialists practiced their craft -- probably because legally they're all held to the same standard of care, so in the reality of the medico-legal world we live in and care for patients, doing anything less is lining up for a real bad day with lawyers involved. Plus there's only so many different ways to treat a lot of conditions.

As far as OMM -- if OMM is all we have, given the dearth of evidence for some (others would say most) of the techniques, that's a real thin thread you're hanging onto.

I received powerpoint presentations that were claiming to point out the D.O. difference, when in reality they were pointing out the rural vs. suburban FM difference. No one could quite pin it down. As far as the 'we treat the whole patient', my thought was,'Well I should hope so!'.

So now what -- I've got a bunch of young D.O.'s that don't do OMM, a bunch of old D.O.'s that have almost a visceral reaction when someone suggests folding D.O.'s into the allopathic path and makking OMM an elective....what to do....

This dilemna for me was really on the back burner while I was earning my degree. It was all about passing the IM shelf or surgery shelf or especially the freakin' peds shelf where I got EVEYONE's neonatal jaundice question....:meanie:

After graduation, for various reasons, I matched into an allopathic FM program....while I can only speak for my experience, it took about 4 months for the difference to become crystal clear. Being a D.O. is much more than OMM/OPP/OMT (pick your acronym of choice)....it's almost a gestalt, a way of approaching patient care that has to be experienced. I got into a situation where I could compare and contrast the approach of a D.O. preceptor vs. an M.D. preceptor. Both provided evidence based care that met the standard of care. But the difference, at least to me, was that the D.O. took the labs and evidence into account when treating the patient. The M.D. seemed to be driven by the labs and evidence and gave little weight to the overall picture. I used to think it was a trite and rathe rude saying that I've heard around osteopathic circles since I was a first year -- "Treating people, not symptoms" but after my experiences in an ACGME residency, it seems to be true. We don't treat just the labs/symptoms, we consider those in formulating our treatment plans giving appropriate weight to them, but we tend to look at the overall picture.

Now, this is NOT M.D. bashing and yes, I could have gone to an M.D. school but chose to go D.O. as I agreed more with the stated philosophy at the time I was interviewing. Were the disappointments and do I feel that we have a lot of work to do providing an evidence base for OMM and need to boot cranial out the door? Yes. But being a D.O. is so much more than OMM.....

Again, this is just my experience at one ACGME residency program. I am not and cannot make broad reaching generalizations. Your mileage may may vary, no warranties expressed or implied and no animals were harmed in the writing of this opinion. The views expressed are solely those of the author.....

We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war....
 
"Again, this is just my experience at one ACGME residency program. I am not and cannot make broad reaching generalizations. Your mileage may may vary, no warranties expressed or implied and no animals were harmed in the writing of this opinion. The views expressed are solely those of the author....."


This, and perhaps you are also seeing what you want to see.
 
I'm in a group here in Denver called "Future Doctors of Denver" and I know of one lady who is studying for the MCAT and is thinking RVU. I sense no disappointment in her tone when she says she wants to go DO.

Honestly, I'm happy to go DO. Especially considering the cold reception we got from schools with MD programmes at our Healthcare Careers Fair on Monday. Drexel & CU were there and they did NOT send anyone from their MD program's Admissions Committee.
 
sylvanthus said:
"Again, this is just my experience at one ACGME residency program. I am not and cannot make broad reaching generalizations. Your mileage may may vary, no warranties expressed or implied and no animals were harmed in the writing of this opinion. The views expressed are solely those of the author....."


This, and perhaps you are also seeing what you want to see.
Click to expand...

I guess that's possible...but it's also possible a pig could be taught to say the Rosary and taken bodily into heaven.....

I've only got one D.O. preceptor and multiple MD preceptors and every time I work with MD preceptors, I get the same attitude that I described....
 
Like some of you guys on this thread, I was obsessed with this DO vs MD complex while I was in school. (westernU class of 2002) I remember being so intimidated by the MD med students from Loma Linda Univ. while we were on Gen. Surgery rotations at the county Hospt. But turns out.... our training is pretty damn good, considering all that time "wasted":laugh: learning and relearning OMM/OMT. By my 4th year ,when I returned to county doing SICU with LLU students, I was kicking major league @$$ and taking no prisoners. The LLU attending was so impressed he asked if he could write me a letter!
Then i did my anesthesia at Tufts in Boston... the land of John Harvard!! I remember doing a pain rotation at Beth Isreal Deaconess (one of the three large Harvard teaching hospital) where the RNs didn't even know what a DO was... are you an optometrist??
Now i'm in private practice in So Cal in a group of 13 Anesthesiologists... most of whom are from Loma Linda or UCLA. No one really cares if you are a DO in our practice!! They just know that I work hard, that i'm safe and competent, that i'm a teamplayer, and that I'm Board Certified. (sorry about the run on sentence) You dont get to bill for more if you're an MD.

SO just study hard and let tomorrow worry about tomorrow. This MD/DO stuff doesn't really matter. 🙂
 
drfeelgood said:
Like some of you guys on this thread, I was obsessed with this DO vs MD complex while I was in school. (westernU class of 2002) I remember being so intimidated by the MD med students from Loma Linda Univ. while we were on Gen. Surgery rotations at the county Hospt. But turns out.... our training is pretty damn good, considering all that time "wasted":laugh: learning and relearning OMM/OMT. By my 4th year ,when I returned to county doing SICU with LLU students, I was kicking major league @$$ and taking no prisoners. The LLU attending was so impressed he asked if he could write me a letter!
Then i did my anesthesia at Tufts in Boston... the land of John Harvard!! I remember doing a pain rotation at Beth Isreal Deaconess (one of the three large Harvard teaching hospital) where the RNs didn't even know what a DO was... are you an optometrist??
Now i'm in private practice in So Cal in a group of 13 Anesthesiologists... most of whom are from Loma Linda or UCLA. No one really cares if you are a DO in our practice!! They just know that I work hard, that i'm safe and competent, that i'm a teamplayer, and that I'm Board Certified. (sorry about the run on sentence) You dont get to bill for more if you're an MD.

SO just study hard and let tomorrow worry about tomorrow. This MD/DO stuff doesn't really matter. 🙂
Click to expand...

That's awesome drfeelgood. A competitive specialty, nonetheless, and a great program as well.
 
drfeelgood said:
You dont get to bill for more if you're an MD.
Click to expand...

But apparently if you are a D.O. you DO get to bill more. Just ran into this one where my wife went to the doctor for an issue that was OMM/OPP/OMT, whatever you want to call it related. Paid the co-pay, went in and got worked on for a few minutes, and then got an extra bill for the techniques performed. This came as a shock and disappointment to me to see that some D.O.'s will charge you for the normal office visit, see you for the normal lenght of time (10-15 minutes at most), do some OMM then send you a bill on top of your co-pay and insurance for the HVLA, ME, or whatever they performed. WTH? Seems about like charging somebody extra for listening to their heart and lungs in my opinion.
 
tele turnin said:
But apparently if you are a D.O. you DO get to bill more. Just ran into this one where my wife went to the doctor for an issue that was OMM/OPP/OMT, whatever you want to call it related. Paid the co-pay, went in and got worked on for a few minutes, and then got an extra bill for the techniques performed. This came as a shock and disappointment to me to see that some D.O.'s will charge you for the normal office visit, see you for the normal lenght of time (10-15 minutes at most), do some OMM then send you a bill on top of your co-pay and insurance for the HVLA, ME, or whatever they performed. WTH? Seems about like charging somebody extra for listening to their heart and lungs in my opinion.
Click to expand...

If they did OMM then they should bill for it. It's not free. Though they should ask if OMM as a treatment is okay before performing it. Did they give treatment without asking permission first?
 
tele turnin said:
But apparently if you are a D.O. you DO get to bill more. Just ran into this one where my wife went to the doctor for an issue that was OMM/OPP/OMT, whatever you want to call it related. Paid the co-pay, went in and got worked on for a few minutes, and then got an extra bill for the techniques performed. This came as a shock and disappointment to me to see that some D.O.'s will charge you for the normal office visit, see you for the normal lenght of time (10-15 minutes at most), do some OMM then send you a bill on top of your co-pay and insurance for the HVLA, ME, or whatever they performed. WTH? Seems about like charging somebody extra for listening to their heart and lungs in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I see this in the O.R. often too. Just yesterday the ENT surgeon kept on reminding the RN to chart that she had to use the operating microscope during the case...even though she never did. Turns out you can bill for more if you say you had to use a microscope during the case🙁
 
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