DO students more empathetic than MDs?

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NontradCA

NontradCA

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😵Not trying to make this an MD v. DO thread but I saw this article and thought it was interesting, even though it is one study:

http://www.jaoa.org/content/113/12/898.full

Thoughts?

Inb4 that journal is crap
Inb4 MD > DO
Inb4 troll
Inb4 ISW and GWDS
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For what it's worth i've heard a few attendings at my hospital say it. One attending told me straight up a few days ago that he believes DOs are better than MDs in general.
 
TopTomato said:
For what it's worth i've heard a few attendings at my hospital say it. One attending told me straight up a few days ago that he believes DOs are better than MDs in general.
Click to expand...
I shadowed two PCPs (MD/DO) and I saw the difference...
 
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BestDoctorEver said:
I shadowed two PCPs (MD/DO) and I saw the difference...
Click to expand...

Usually extremely bright people aren't the most people friendly. Sometimes I wonder if some doctors suffer from that.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
TopTomato said:
Usually extremely bright people aren't the most people friendly. Sometimes I wonder if some doctors suffer from that.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Probably... No wonder most people have a hard time dealing with surgeons. Lol.
 
Primary Cares are more empathetic than Surgeons.
 
NontradCA said:
😵Not trying to make this an MD v. DO thread but I saw this article and thought it was interesting, even though it is one study:

http://www.jaoa.org/content/113/12/898.full

Thoughts?

Inb4 that journal is crap
Inb4 MD > DO
Inb4 troll
Inb4 ISW and GWDS
Click to expand...

So what do you think? It's a study published by the AOA and we all know how the AOA would do all things to promote osteopathic medicine.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
I shadowed two PCPs (MD/DO) and I saw the difference...
Click to expand...
And …… ??? What would you say was the biggest difference? In what way was one more 'empathetic' than the other? What was their approach? Did they do referrals?
 
BestDoctorEver said:
I shadowed two PCPs (MD/DO) and I saw the difference...
Click to expand...

n = 2 yo.

All the physicians in my life are MDs are all of them have been warm and empathetic. I sincerely doubt MD v.s DO school causes personality differences.

TopTomato said:
Usually extremely bright people aren't the most people friendly. Sometimes I wonder if some doctors suffer from that.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Honestly, I'm not genius but I spend half of the week smh at people at thinking how wonderful it would be to be a zoologist and just talk to orangutans or seals. But seriously enough, when you go through medical school and are told by twits that they think vaccines are evil or that their 'religion' somehow is a valid excuse for obstructionism I can see why people get angry.
 
All I know is that there great MDs and DOs and there are bad MDs and DOs. I don't think those two letters will magically determine how great or emphatic a physician is. I think articles like this is what continues to ignite a flame war between MDs and DOs. If we want MDs to see us as equals then we seriously have to stop competing on whose better.

Edit: I do think that the people on the pre-DO forum are so much nicer and accepting than people on the pre-MD forum. Not sure why most of them are so angry.
 
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ThisCouldBeYou said:
And …… ??? What would you say was the biggest difference? In what way was one more 'empathetic' than the other? What was their approach? Did they do referrals?
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The DO was much more of a talker and the MD was straight to the point... This is just a summary. I can give many examples, but I just don't have time to write them all.
 
DO schools give chances to non trads with life experience and people with lower stats. MD schools tend to accept 22 year old kids who have never lived in the real world, and they tend to be upper upper upper middle class who have parents as physicians ( how else can they afford all those mission trips?) From my personal experience most MD students grow up with a ton of privilege and seem disconnected with reality.
 
You can, or at least I can, often tell who is a DO and who is an MD without knowing their initials. So I think there are behavioral difference between the typical DO and the typical MD. I'm not really talking about empathy, and I'm not saying one is better than the other. There's a noticeable difference, though.
 
EMDO2018 said:
DO schools give chances to non trads with life experience and people with lower stats. MD schools tend to accept 22 year old kids who have never lived in the real world, and they tend to be upper upper upper middle class who have parents as physicians ( how else can they afford all those mission trips?) From my personal experience most MD students grow up with a ton of privilege and seem disconnected with reality.
Click to expand...

I am 100% sure there are MANY that are in MD school that do not fit this bill (Read "Becoming Dr. Q" if you need proof). However, I personally know many more that fit this description that are going to MD school, and EVERY person that I know who is at DO school is either from more humble circumstances, or is non-trad and is truly passionate about helping people.

I dont think it would be a night and day difference, where like MD's cast a dark shadow down hallways that they walk through, but I just think that the nature of the process of even getting into these perspective types of schools have different standards for what types of students that they are trying to find.

So I dont think it should be set in stone that one is better or more empathetic than the other, just a slight difference based upon the nature of the application process and the teaching differences at the schools.

But then again, this is just another n=1 from a pre-med
 
cliquesh said:
You can, or at least I can, often tell who is a DO and who is an MD without knowing their initials. So I think there are behavioral difference between the typical DO and the typical MD. I'm not really talking about empathy, and I'm not saying one is better than the other. There's a noticeable difference, though.
Click to expand...

Like what behavioral difference?
 
EMDO2018 said:
DO schools give chances to non trads with life experience and people with lower stats. MD schools tend to accept 22 year old kids who have never lived in the real world, and they tend to be upper upper upper middle class who have parents as physicians ( how else can they afford all those mission trips?) From my personal experience most MD students grow up with a ton of privilege and seem disconnected with reality.
Click to expand...

Isn't the average age of admission to DO school only a year more than MD ( 24)? Likewise, I think most people applying to medical school or professional school or even grad school are upper middle class/ privileged ( You can find this in AACOM; but likewise because the gateway to all of the above is undergraduate which attracts in majority the mostly upper middle class or how only 20% of this country has a bachelors degree).
 
serenade said:
Isn't the average age of admission to DO school only a year more than MD ( 24)? Likewise, I think most people applying to medical school or professional school or even grad school are upper middle class/ privileged ( You can find this in AACOM; but likewise because the gateway to all of the above is undergraduate which attracts in majority the mostly upper middle class or how only 20% of this country has a bachelors degree).
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I think it is 30% serenade...
 
serenade said:
Isn't the average age of admission to DO school only a year more than MD ( 24)? Likewise, I think most people applying to medical school or professional school or even grad school are upper middle class/ privileged ( You can find this in AACOM; but likewise because the gateway to all of the above is undergraduate which attracts in majority the mostly upper middle class or how only 20% of this country has a bachelors degree).
Click to expand...

I know that 23 y/o me who has been out working is WAY more on top of it and harder working than 22 y/o me... In some cases that 1 year actual is significant (though I will agree that the difference in age in MD/DO is getting smaller).

I would also agree that generally speaking most in any graduate program are upper middle for sure (most being at least half).

But I still stand by what I personally have seen which is 4/5 of my MD friends came from exceptionally higher class and have no outward expression of appreciation to that fact (imagine stereotypical pre-med), and 4/4 of my DO friends came from WAY more humble circumstances and outwardly appreciate the opportunity that they have been given.

n=1, but I mean if this is just a discussion and not a hard fast rule we are working on, then this is my personal experience/point of view
 
Awesome Sauceome said:
I know that 23 y/o me who has been out working is WAY more on top of it and harder working than 22 y/o me... In some cases that 1 year actual is significant (though I will agree that the difference in age in MD/DO is getting smaller).

I would also agree that generally speaking most in any graduate program are upper middle for sure (most being at least half).

But I still stand by what I personally have seen which is 4/5 of my MD friends came from exceptionally higher class and have no outward expression of appreciation to that fact (imagine stereotypical pre-med), and 4/4 of my DO friends came from WAY more humble circumstances and outwardly appreciate the opportunity that they have been given.

n=1, but I mean if this is just a discussion and not a hard fast rule we are working on, then this is my personal experience/point of view
Click to expand...

Cha
The old run inferior operational system. We must make them touch screen and windows 8 or else Sauron will win!

So say I... Serenade the Indigo
 
Awesome Sauceome said:
But I still stand by what I personally have seen which is 4/5 of my MD friends came from exceptionally higher class and have no outward expression of appreciation to that fact (imagine stereotypical pre-med), and 4/4 of my DO friends came from WAY more humble circumstances and outwardly appreciate the opportunity that they have been given.

n=1, but I mean if this is just a discussion and not a hard fast rule we are working on, then this is my personal experience/point of view
Click to expand...

I totally agree, totally. Almost all the people at my undergrad that went to MD schools came from privileged backgrounds and most of the ppl who went the DO route came from working class backgrounds. A lot of them including myself would be the first person ever in there families to go to professional school. From my experiences intelligence is not the difference between DO and MD students it's privilege. Of course this is not always the case but from what I've seen there's a trend.
 
Mx300 said:
I totally agree, totally. Almost all the people at my undergrad that went to MD schools came from privileged backgrounds and most of the ppl who went the DO route came from working class backgrounds. A lot of them including myself would be the first person ever in there families to go to professional school. From my experiences intelligence is not the difference between DO and MD students it's privilege. Of course this is not always the case but from what I've seen there's a trend.
Click to expand...

Besides that 1/5 above who is truly just amazingly hard working dude who just made himself from scratch and is currently at UNC, the other 4/5 had more resources for application prep and to apply to more schools. 2/5 had private MCAT tutors, and 3/5 came from families of PHDs or doctors...

Only 2/4 of the DO students had parents that had ever even gone to college.

Not that this inherently leads back to the original question of empathy, but I think there could be an argument for other characteristics in those who have come from lower backgrounds.
 
DOs at my hospital have a really good reputation for being friendly and personable, but there are only like 3 so it isn't exactly a huge sample size.
 
Awesome Sauceome said:
I am 100% sure there are MANY that are in MD school that do not fit this bill (Read "Becoming Dr. Q" if you need proof). However, I personally know many more that fit this description that are going to MD school, and EVERY person that I know who is at DO school is either from more humble circumstances, or is non-trad and is truly passionate about helping people.

I dont think it would be a night and day difference, where like MD's cast a dark shadow down hallways that they walk through, but I just think that the nature of the process of even getting into these perspective types of schools have different standards for what types of students that they are trying to find.

So I dont think it should be set in stone that one is better or more empathetic than the other, just a slight difference based upon the nature of the application process and the teaching differences at the schools.

But then again, this is just another n=1 from a pre-med
Click to expand...
Awesome Sauceome said:
Besides that 1/5 above who is truly just amazingly hard working dude who just made himself from scratch and is currently at UNC, the other 4/5 had more resources for application prep and to apply to more schools. 2/5 had private MCAT tutors, and 3/5 came from families of PHDs or doctors...

Only 2/4 of the DO students had parents that had ever even gone to college.

Not that this inherently leads back to the original question of empathy, but I think there could be an argument for other characteristics in those who have come from lower backgrounds.
Click to expand...
http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Documents/2013-Applicant-Matriculant-Report.pdf

74% have college educated parents and 34% having a physician as a family member.
 
EMDO2018 said:
MD schools tend to accept 22 year old kids who have never lived in the real world, and they tend to be upper upper upper middle class who have parents as physicians ( how else can they afford all those mission trips?) From my personal experience most MD students grow up with a ton of privilege and seem disconnected with reality.
Click to expand...

:laugh:
 
I've always considered my personality to be alot more mellow, and sympathetic than some of my colleagues. I do not mean to come off as boasting or anything, but perhaps this was what led me to take a liking to OMT when I first saw it in my shadowing, and what led me to apply to a DO program.
Also, I've been told that I am good with my hands 😀 Maybe all that practice giving my ex-gf back massages will come in handy when I learn manipulations.
 
I have some less than compassionate people at my school ("you've got cancer stage IV, so yea follow up in a month if your still around-insert weird laugh) at my school (DO) and I assume there are some other " social winners/losers" in MD schools.

It's all about the person, if your a weirdo before/during school chances are you still going to be weird after.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ignore spelling and/or grammar
 
Poliscidoc said:
I have some less than compassionate people at my school ("you've got cancer stage IV, so yea follow up in a month if your still around-insert weird laugh) at my school (DO) and I assume there are some other " social winners/losers" in MD schools.

It's all about the person, if your a weirdo before/during school chances are you still going to be weird after.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ignore spelling and/or grammar
Click to expand...

That's not very sensitive.
 
I would hope that, through the relentless use of "buzzwords" and alternative medicine pitches we sometimes (or often, depending on how cultish, uninformed, or overly-enthusiastic the school representatives in your region are) hear as pre-med, that some of us actually become the model physician with all of the osteopathic and "whole person" principles working to shore up any weak points in our individual character.

I remember my first run-in with a D.O. student from an east coast school at SOMA booth during a pre-med conference. Maybe it was a clash of cultures but she was remarkably rude and short with me with the few questions I asked, and it was definitely unexpected. I didn't even try to troll her either, I was just asking about the function of SOMA and how'd she like her school.
 
There's a difference. It became very obvious for me during away rotations with 3rd/4th year MD students and during residency interviews.
 
We are all our own person. Do well, do good.

To my future colleagues, I am your friend. I care about neither the letters of your name nor the letters following. I care about you, the person.

Medicine is hard enough as it is. You are all my classmates. Just as I wish everyone else to be, I wish you all well.

Cheers. I raise my glass to you.
 
Pretty sure empathy is a feature of a person which their medical school admission criteria do not have any corrolation to.

also pretty sure that for every doctor who says "DOs are are better doctors/more empathetic/more hands on" there is an equal number who go "MDs sure are better doctors/more empathetics/more hands on". Turns out its rather rude to tell someone that the people BESIDES them are much better and pretty sure I've seen every kind of student in the exact same ratios in both MD and DO cohorts.
 
Being a DO doesn't automatically turn a d-bag into an empathetic person. Nor does being an MD make someone less caring. They are the same career and a variety of people tend to be drawn to medicine.
 
I work with about half MDs and half DOs in the ED. The DOs I work with are MUCH more personable than the MDs, from my experience anyway.
 
DocEspana said:
Pretty sure empathy is a feature of a person which their medical school admission criteria do not have any corrolation to.

also pretty sure that for every doctor who says "DOs are are better doctors/more empathetic/more hands on" there is an equal number who go "MDs sure are better doctors/more empathetics/more hands on". Turns out its rather rude to tell someone that the people BESIDES them are much better and pretty sure I've seen every kind of student in the exact same ratios in both MD and DO cohorts.
Click to expand...
Environment matters a lot even if you don't perceive it. Being around people that insist all day we are more holistic has to have an effect. Also, I think people going to DO by nature are a bit different, whereas in the MD world you might get more people that are prestige junkies and grew up in better circumstances. I also saw differences while shadowing and meeting DOs. They are subtle, but I feel DOs treat you more like a friend whereas MDs I have seen have always treated patients as just clients getting a service.
 
I think this is more an issue of self-selection than anything else. 60% of DOs going into Primary care is also to some degree due to self selection. DO schools may make us comfy putting our hands on our patients, but I doubt there is that much of a difference based solely on 4 years of learning almost the same thing.

I will say though that at my school, there is a heavy emphasis on being compassionate and actively comforting patients. We actually get graded on empathy pretty much from day 1 of H&P (could be because almost all our clinician profs are FM docs). Talking to MD students at schools in the area, it seems like they don't get as much of that until late 2nd year and into rotations. Maybe that has a small bit to do with it, but it might be a school specific thing as I know some MD schools that really emphasize it (but they are pretty rural schools, which I guess makes sense).
 
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Bacchus said:
Your degree doesn't cloak your personality faults. If you stink as a person, being an MD over a DO or a DO over an MD isn't going to fix that.
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In psychology, we know that smiling when you feel sad makes you feel better. 4 years of being graded on empathy and being insisted upon to be holistic at the least teaches you how to fake it, which still results in better doctor-patient relationship.
 
I'd wager that DO schools attract more chill applicants. I have a feeling the gunner type personalities would rather go MD. But that's just a blind assumption
 
Did any of you actually bother to click the link and at the very least read the abstract?

Comparisons of empathy scores with allopathic medical students showed no significant difference in the first and second years, but osteopathic medical students had a higher mean empathy score (M=114.4) than their allopathic counterparts (M=110.9) in the third year (t158=2.31, P<.05), and their empathy scores remained high, although not statistically significant, in the fourth year of osteopathic medical school.
Click to expand...

So basically allopathic students experience more burnout during third year than osteopathic students. No surprise there as allopathic core rotations are much more rigorous, the environment is a lot more structured and demanding and you get more of an underserved and socially complex population at a university hospital. On the other hand third year at an osteopathic school tends to have a lot more outpatient (much more relaxed environment) and shadowing. Notably they didn't find that DO students are more empathetic at baseline and the difference found during third year didn't even last into fourth year.

EDIT: I just skimmed the conclusion and the bias is almost comical. Wouldn't be surprised if the conclusion was written before the study was even conducted. There is no mention of any confounding factors and some of the "conclusions" aren't supported by the data that was presented.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes. DOs are more empathetic than MDs because DOs are better able to empathize with how clueless patients are about basic sciences and clinical medicine.
 
MeatTornado said:
So basically allopathic students experience more burnout during third year than osteopathic students. No surprise there as allopathic core rotations are much more rigorous, the environment is a lot more structured and demanding and you get more of an underserved and socially complex population at a university hospital. On the other hand third year at an osteopathic school tends to have a lot more outpatient (much more relaxed environment) and shadowing.
Click to expand...

???????? Wut
 
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