Do you need an undergraduate degree to get a residency?

[irishking33]

A friend of mine dropped out of his undergrad after his sophomore year and went straight to a lesser-known Caribbean medical school. He's yet to take his Step 1, but I was thinking, even if he graduates from medical school and passes his boards, wouldn't he still need his undergraduate degree to get a residency? I imagine residency programs would assume every applicant has their undergraduate degree, since every medical school in the US that I know of requires a degree before matriculating. I know some Caribbean schools may be different, but whether or not residency programs care may be a different story.

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[Raryn]

A friend of mine dropped out of his undergrad after his sophomore year and went straight to a lesser-known Caribbean medical school. He's yet to take his Step 1, but I was thinking, even if he graduates from medical school and passes his boards, wouldn't he still need his undergraduate degree to get a residency? I imagine residency programs would assume every applicant has their undergraduate degree, since every medical school in the US that I know of requires a degree before matriculating. I know some Caribbean schools may be different, but whether or not residency programs care may be a different story.

A couple things:

A) Tens of thousands of doctors in America don't have undergrad degrees - many countries don't require undergrad prior to medical school, so every physician who practices that went to med school in the UK, India, etc doesn't have an undergrad diploma. In addition...
B) A ton of US med schools don't technically require an undergrad degree. Go back and look at the admission requirements - last I checked, the majority of schools actually required only something like 90 semester units of undergrad (3/4 of a degree). The actual diploma was not a requirement. Thirty years ago, it was not uncommon to matriculate without one. These days, it's a de facto requirement, but often not a formal one.
C) Your friend is much more likely to not match because he's going to a lesser-known Caribbean medical school than he is to not match because of a lack of a bachelors.

At *best*, the well known Carib schools match only something like 4/9 of the people that start at them. That is, the very best Carib schools lose 1/3 of people prior to graduation and then another 1/3 of the remainder don't match. A lesser-known school has odds significantly worse than that.

 

[irishking33]

A couple things:

A) Tens of thousands of doctors in America don't have undergrad degrees - many countries don't require undergrad prior to medical school, so every physician who practices that went to med school in the UK, India, etc doesn't have an undergrad diploma. In addition...
B) A ton of US med schools don't technically require an undergrad degree. Go back and look at the admission requirements - last I checked, the majority of schools actually required only something like 90 semester units of undergrad (3/4 of a degree). The actual diploma was not a requirement. Thirty years ago, it was not uncommon to matriculate without one. These days, it's a de facto requirement, but often not a formal one.
C) Your friend is much more likely to not match because he's going to a lesser-known Caribbean medical school than he is to not match because of a lack of a bachelors.

At *best*, the well known Carib schools match only something like 4/9 of the people that start at them. That is, the very best Carib schools lose 1/3 of people prior to graduation and then another 1/3 of the remainder don't match. A lesser-known school has odds significantly worse than that.

B) is not correct. Medical schools require 90 semester units of undergrad to APPLY to them, not to matriculate. Every student who is accepted is able to enroll under the assumption that they will complete their undergraduate degree before matriculating.

 

[deleted859535]

B) is not correct. Medical schools require 90 semester units of undergrad to APPLY to them, not to matriculate. Every student who is accepted is able to enroll under the assumption that they will complete their undergraduate degree before matriculating.

As @Raryn said, some schools technically require just so many hours of undergrad work. When I applied to med schools long ago, this was the case with many programs I considered. I was curious and just looked at my med school's site; same now. They do not assume completion by matriculation. Of course, the majority of those in a US med school have an undergrad degree just by virtue of having been US pre-meds, so this whole thing is an academic argument at best.

I spent two minutes randomly thinking of med schools and looking at their sites. UT Southwestern lists typical required pre-reqs without a mentioned hour or degree requirement. Rush requires a degree. UCSF has only the hour requirement. The University of Colorado requires either a degree or a minimum of 120, not 90, hours (and they interestingly will give a non-degree-holding student a degree to take that place upon their completion of medical school). OHSU requires a degree. Baylor requires 90 hours. UNM lists only common required pre-reqs. UNC requires a degree.

Agree with Raryn otherwise as well. Forget the undergrad thing (no, don't think residencies will care much); your friend has bigger issues.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Lack of an undergraduate diploma is much more common in the international setting. While yes, technically a degree isn't required for medical school admission, just about everyone will have one in US medical schools and several will have other graduate degrees. I am fairly certain everyone in my medical school class graduated college.

An interesting academic discussion, but unfortunately your friend probably went to one of the unfortunate several shady Caribbean schools that accept all comers as long as they pay tuition. I predict he will unfortunately have great difficulty obtaining a US-based residency, which many of these schools sadly gloss over when they give presentations.

Bottom line, as long as you have a doctor of medicine (or osteopathy) from a medical school that at least some organization accredits then you are eligible for a residency. Obtaining a position, however, will be a massive uphill battle.

 

[irishking33]

Lack of an undergraduate diploma is much more common in the international setting. While yes, technically a degree isn't required for medical school admission, just about everyone will have one in US medical schools and several will have other graduate degrees. I am fairly certain everyone in my medical school class graduated college.

An interesting academic discussion, but unfortunately your friend probably went to one of the unfortunate several shady Caribbean schools that accept all comers as long as they pay tuition. I predict he will unfortunately have great difficulty obtaining a US-based residency, which many of these schools sadly gloss over when they give presentations.

Bottom line, as long as you have a doctor of medicine (or osteopathy) from a medical school that at least some organization accredits then you are eligible for a residency. Obtaining a position, however, will be a massive uphill battle.

I see. He went to International American University, I'm not sure if you've heard of that one (probably not).

 

[wiloghby]

At the time I applied to MD schools (for matriculation starting August 2014), University of Michigan explicitly stated you did NOT need to have earned a college degree to matriculate there. But they stated you do need the 90 credits completed, and that it would be rare to gain admission without having a realistic plan to complete an undergraduate degree evident in your application.

I just checked their website and it does not state a degree is required...but it looks hella difficult to get admitted there now... gosh dang.

 

[Raryn]

B) is not correct. Medical schools require 90 semester units of undergrad to APPLY to them, not to matriculate. Every student who is accepted is able to enroll under the assumption that they will complete their undergraduate degree before matriculating.

There's 160 or something medical schools in this country. I guarantee you a significant proportion don't actually require a degree. It's just a de facto requirement in recent years because everyone else applying has one.

Regardless, your friend is going to a carib school outside the well-known 3-4. It won't matter how many other degrees he has, his MD isn't going to be considered to be a worthy one.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

By the time your friend is applying to residency, it won't matter if they have an undergrad degree. It might be an interesting topic of discussion at an interview, but not having one isn't going to cause any problems for residency.

The real problem for your friend is if he doesn't graduate from medical school. Then he/she has no medical degree, and no undergrad degree. Lots of debt and nothing to show for it.

Being from an unknown carib school is going to be the big problem, as mentioned.

 

[BigRedBeta]

Lack of an undergraduate diploma is much more common in the international setting. While yes, technically a degree isn't required for medical school admission, just about everyone will have one in US medical schools and several will have other graduate degrees. I am fairly certain everyone in my medical school class graduated college.

2 people in my medical school class (class of '09) did not have undergraduate degrees having applied/been accepted/matriculated with only 90 hours of undergraduate coursework.

 

[DokterMom]

If I were reviewing his application for residency, I would assume "foolish and impatient" and also suspect "immature, impulsive and reckless."

But then, I'm mean. 😎

 

[AdmiralChz]

2 people in my medical school class (class of '09) did not have undergraduate degrees having applied/been accepted/matriculated with only 90 hours of undergraduate coursework.

So 2 out of 150ish? Less than 2%, like I said - exceedingly rare.

 

[Emmet2301]

A) Tens of thousands of doctors in America don't have undergrad degrees - many countries don't require undergrad prior to medical school, so every physician who practices that went to med school in the UK, India, etc doesn't have an undergrad diploma. In addition...

This is so incorrect. In the UK/India the medical degree IS the undergraduate degree. The MD is a specialization done aftewards.

What do you think MBBS stands for???

 

[Raryn]

This is so incorrect. In the UK/India the medical degree IS the undergraduate degree. The MD is a specialization done aftewards.

What do you think MBBS stands for???

Fine.

Tens of thousands of doctors don't have a *separate* bachelor's degree. In the US, the MBBS is considered equivalent to an MD. Hence why they can put the MD after their names when they immigrate. But you're right, an MBBS/MBChB/BMBS/etc are technically speaking a bachelor's.

Regardless, there are other countries where the entry level medical degree is a doctorate and there's no bachelor's involved. Russia is one, and there's thousands of Russian MDs practicing in the US.

 

[BGDino]

Fine.

Tens of thousands of doctors don't have a *separate* bachelor's degree. In the US, the MBBS is considered equivalent to an MD. Hence why they can put the MD after their names when they immigrate. But you're right, an MBBS/MBChB/BMBS/etc are technically speaking a bachelor's.

Regardless, there are other countries where the entry level medical degree is a doctorate and there's no bachelor's involved. Russia is one, and there's thousands of Russian MDs practicing in the US.

Exactly. I’m from downunder, where we have med schools that are undergrad (so your undergrad degree is your med degree) and others that are postgrad like in the US (so your bachelors is separate from your med degree). Hence why I’m Dr BGDino MBBS as I went to an undergrad med school - I started med school at 18 years and 4 months old, straight out of high school. (Which honestly was probably not an informed decision but luckily has turned out great.) Interestingly some of the undergrad schools here have changed their degree from MBBS to MD as they feel it’s more easily understood and more attractive to the international medical community.