Do you think PIMPing is an effective teaching method?

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Do you think PIMPing is an effective teaching method?

  • Yes

    Votes: 81 77.9%
  • No

    Votes: 23 22.1%

  • Total voters
    104

Staryy

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What is your most embarrassing / frustrating experience with PIMPing ?


Being PIMPed Ain't Easy
Neil Chanchlani Defends a Dying Teaching Method

I remember my first time. It was early in the morning, and I had barely slept the night before. A few of us were standing around, and I was at the front of the pack. Secretly, I wanted to be chosen, pushed to the limit so I could learn a thing or two. It's a competitive environment though, so I knew I had to be alert and look interested when someone eventually came.

You, he pointed at me, "What are the most common complications of thyroidectomy?" This was easy, but I didn't know it. Silence ensued, and eyes rolled. "What is a thyroidectomy?" This was easy, and I did know it, so responded cheerfully with a textbook one liner. Question after question poured out. I didn't know the exact surgical incision length, nor which arteries and veins needed to be divided. A Hartley Dunhill operation? Forgot to cram that one in. And, to hammer it home, the sensitivity of fine needle aspiration cytology for thyroid nodules had escaped me. I had been PIMPed, short for "Put in my place."

PIMPing is a US term, but familiar territory in the UK. It involves the Socratic method of learning through questions and answers rather than lecture style teaching. Students might be required to reel off pointless facts of a certain disease or biological process, or seniors can push students by questioning them about something beyond normal expectations. It is more commonly the former. Students might walk away in shame, despair, and embarrassment. In clinical education, we face it all the time: ward rounds, observing in theatre, assisting in clinic, or even when minding our own business writing in a patient's notes. It's not unheard of for a senior to ask: "So can you tell me what's wrong with Mrs. Smith's tube?" to be met with, from a junior, blankly "Mrs Smith has a tube?" The beginning of a PIMP that's headed only one way.

Brancati first broadly described the term in 1989.[1] In a light hearted manner, he said that it was a teaching method that was largely politically motivated: "Proper pimping inculcates the intern [trainee] with a profound and abiding respect for his attending physical [trainer] while ridding the intern of needless self esteem." Although PIMPing might be seen to exist simply to give seniors a method to humiliate the junior members of their team, others have felt that it is a valid educational tool: a provocative method that might help students retain the knowledge that is being imparted.[2] Brancati felt pimping was dying, so he provided some advice to trainers. Among them, ask students arcane points of patient history and excessively broad questions. Readers agreed, and hoped PIMPing wouldn't die.[3]

More than 20 years later, and PIMPing is still alive. Trainees and students come home complaining of consultants and registrars embarrassing them in front of their patients and colleagues on a daily basis. For some it's justified, others less so. When not being used for teaching, PIMPing can point out serious errors in judgment: "In front of everyone, he asked me if I was trying to kill the asthmatic patient when I mistakenly gave her a ß blocker." I doubt that doctor would make the same mistake again. PIMPing didn't hinder, it may have helped.

It's a fine line between education and bullying. If the student or trainee should have known the answer, does that make it more acceptable? Perhaps. What if a teacher just wants to push a student's limits, and get them to think more critically? In the learning environment, we should be soaking up as much as we can, whether it's on the syllabus or not. Although, thankfully, getting quizzed about the technical points of laboratory research or metaphysics, as Bercanti suggests, rarely occurs.[1]

The topic was revisited at the International Conference on Physician Health in Montreal, Canada. A presentation concluded that PIMPing causes trainees stress.[4] The authors said that, with the high number of medical students that experience burnout—about 50%—and trainee doctors that experience burnout—about 80%—PIMPing doesn't help to keep these numbers low. Study authors blamed bad teachers with ill defined roles, rather than not-so-smart students and trainees, and took a "it's not their fault they're stressed out" line.[4]

But no one said being PIMPed is easy. Of course it's difficult to stare a senior in the face and exclaim those hated three words: "I don't know." But after his or her explanation, you will never forget. Although it might be perceived as stressful and even a cause of burnout, PIMPing can be helpful, educational, and is likely facilitate students' remembering something. Research shows that most students enjoy this teaching method, more formally known as "active learning."[5,6]

It's one of the many things they don't tell you about before starting medical school. A thick skin might be a more useful attribute than a Duke of Edinburgh Gold award or Grade 8 piano.

SOURCE:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/781525?src=mp&uac=155699BZ&spon=25
 
Pimp is not an acronym for "put in my place", and the term should not be capitalized. That said, it can be an effective teaching method when used correctly but usually isn't.
 
When I was a resident I was pimped by good (effective) and bad (ineffective) pimpers. I learned from both. I would rather be pimped by a "malignant" attending than patted on the back by a "nice" one. This new culture of "everything is ok" and "aren't we all so great" is not effective teaching. As a resident I liked having my management and knowledge challenged. I try to do this to my residents now that I am an attending. No one should take it personally. It is a great learning tool. Embrace it!
 
I think it depends on the attending. Some attendings will go out of their way to find a question or scenario where you likely won't know the correct answer based on your current status as a med student. Other attendings will ask useful questions and questions that will genuinely help you.

Overall though, its a very useful learning tool, and one that definitely helps you retain info.
 
It's a good teaching method as long as it is done correctly. If not, it can be a horrible experience.

My best teacher during med school was a psych attending who had mastered the art of pimping. It was just him and me (plus a sub-I student part of the time), and when we didn't have patients he'd pimp. Never tried to humiliate is when we didn't know the answer, and would let us look the answer up when we got stumped. I learned an incredible amount from him.

On the other hand, having a malignant pimper for an attending sucks balls (gyn onc attending, I'm looking at you).
 
I have had both good pimping experiences and bad experiences.

Good - quizzed multiple times (in front of heme/onc patients) if I remembered to ask them when they last had a mammogram, colonoscopy, pap smear ect....on Step 2 preventative medicine was one of my strengths.

Bad - told to prepare a presentation on liver masses, the next morning when I was asked to present, before I could complete my first sentence I was told I was wrong (this came from a Surgeon who did not like me...I figured this much because he said many "ethnocentric" things about me, to my face, and his patients...but that is another topic).
 
Pimping is fine if done properly. It does not have to be a humiliating experience. The key is to start with basic topics and as the student/resident demonstrates they know the basics work to incrementally more advanced topics. I learn best this way. As another poster said, you either know it the first time or you will next time!

Survivor DO
 
Bad - told to prepare a presentation on liver masses, the next morning when I was asked to present, before I could complete my first sentence I was told I was wrong (this came from a Surgeon who did not like me...I figured this much because he said many "ethnocentric" things about me, to my face, and his patients...but that is another topic).

This is not pimping. This is being a douchebag.
 
I think it's really useful if it's done in a non-malignant way...it will help you blast out cobwebs and remember things that you haven't dealt with in a while. There were rotations where I literally 'requested' to be pimped as a med student because I felt like more pimping would help me remember things.

If it's intimidating, extremely abrasive, and focused on obscure minutiae (usually so the pimper can demonstrate his superiority and puff up his ego), then it's completely pointless.
 
When I was a resident I was pimped by good (effective) and bad (ineffective) pimpers. I learned from both. I would rather be pimped by a "malignant" attending than patted on the back by a "nice" one. This new culture of "everything is ok" and "aren't we all so great" is not effective teaching. As a resident I liked having my management and knowledge challenged. I try to do this to my residents now that I am an attending. No one should take it personally. It is a great learning tool. Embrace it!

In my brief clinical experience, this is very true. I appreciate a pat on the back every once in a while, but telling me "you did a great job" doesn't teach me anything. I'd much rather have an attending that expects me to know everything than one that expects me to know nothing.
 
Likewise, I have seen pimping gone wrong and pimping gone right. It is without a doubt a very valuable learning tool as I seriously doubt I will ever forget some of the minutiae I was pimped on during med school. The is to be a good pimpee, have fun, try, and most importantly know when to say I don't know.

That last one is hard for med students....it is painful to watch someone try and BS their way through an answer they clearly don't know, to all you med students, please have some integrity and just say "I don't know, please enlighten me." If your pimper is good this will not backfire like you think it will.
 
Pimping is under-utilized. At the beginning of my NICU rotation I could draw fetal circulation but I quickly got confused when an attending pimped me on the route of a UVC in a patient while tripping over the name 'ductus venosus.' I knew fetal circulation a lot better after that embarrassment.

Best Pimping Experience? Not mine, but heard of an OB-Gyn professor who would start surgeries with pimping about general trivia. (Ex. Name as many candy slogans as you can in twenty seconds). Classmates loved it because it got you used to thinking on your feet and answering questions orally with less intimidating material. Useful warm-up for the real pimping that would come later in the case, especially for July-August med students who may have never answered a medical question out loud in their life.
 
I have had both good pimping experiences and bad experiences.

Good - quizzed multiple times (in front of heme/onc patients) if I remembered to ask them when they last had a mammogram, colonoscopy, pap smear ect....on Step 2 preventative medicine was one of my strengths.

Bad - told to prepare a presentation on liver masses, the next morning when I was asked to present, before I could complete my first sentence I was told I was wrong (this came from a Surgeon who did not like me...I figured this much because he said many "ethnocentric" things about me, to my face, and his patients...but that is another topic).

We're talking about some different things here. This situation is not really what I consider "pimping." I agree that letting someone go one sentence in a prepared presentation and then stopping them is just abusive.

In my mind pimping is asking a question of a learner (student, resident, EMT student, etc.) in a clinical setting, often in front of other students, about a medical issue relevant to a patient being seen.

I agree this can be done well or poorly. If it's done well it teaches the student and the rest of the group useful information. Usually when it's done well it is benign and collegial but it can be more stress inducing particularly if it is follow up to a previous discussion, e.g. if a student was warned there would be questions about topic x and they didn't read up. Then it's a learning point about medicine and work habits.

When it's used to grandstand or humiliate it's bad.

Pimping is the medical version of the Socratic method.

I think it's very valuable if not indispensable for medical education. The alternative would be following the attending from room to room and getting a mini lecture at each stop. I just don't think that would keep anyone engaged and result in much less retention.
 
What is your most embarrassing / frustrating experience with PIMPing ?
One of my worst experiences was as a sub-I. I was studying for Step 2, so I was up on a lot of the stuff our attending liked to pimp about. The attending was a nice guy, young, fresh out of fellowship, but not experienced with pimping. One of the rules is that you always should pimp up the hierarchy. In other words, start with the most junior person and work your way up to the most senior. This guy, he'd start with the intern, and then go to me. The intern was one of those people who freeze under pressure, and she'd be like a deer in headlights when he asked even a simple question. She'd get flustered and not be able to answer it. Then he'd ask me, and I'd have a choice: either I could answer the question and then the intern looked even worse, or I could not answer it and then I'd look bad. So I'd answer it. The more it happened, the worse her confidence got. But the attending just kept asking her questions. After the second day of this, I talked to the senior resident about it privately because it was making me really uncomfortable, but it didn't do any good. Fortunately we had a different attending the next week, and that one did pimp me first. But wow, it was such an incredibly awkward experience.

FWIW, I agree with the others that pimping, when done with the intention of teaching and with respect for the learners, is a useful teaching tool.
 
Pimping is a very effective teaching tool if used wisely. If done in a collegial manner, with relevance to diagnose and management, it can be a great learning tool. When I was pimped on material, I never forgot it. But if pimping is done in a way so as to belittle the student, or if it includes questions on esoteric material not relevant to patient care, then it loses its value.
 
Pimping is a very effective teaching tool if used wisely. If done in a collegial manner, with relevance to diagnose and management, it can be a great learning tool. When I was pimped on material, I never forgot it. But if pimping is done in a way so as to belittle the student, or if it includes questions on esoteric material not relevant to patient care, then it loses its value.

Again...the bolded isn't pimping...it's being a douche-canoe.

When I "pimp" residents and med students, frankly, all I want them to do is take 5 or 10 seconds and think before they just blurt out the answer they learned for Step 2/3. And I try to tailor it for the level of the "learner." Asking a med student or intern a fellow (or attending) level question is just a big dick contest where everybody loses.
 
I think what's more effective, at least for a diagnostic specialty, is asking the student if they've asked particular questions (that they might not have already presented on) and assessing whether they understand what a particular test means or why we order it. In that way the pimping is very tailored to eliciting and interpreting information.

Otherwise, I think for medical and more procedural specialties that pimping should be restricted to management. Lots of this stuff is not in books and may depend on clinical reasoning and being "medically" sensible. Hopefully the Socratic method here works in the same way as in law, in that it brings out key ways of thinking that aren't (and cannot be) outlined in a book. Pimping on raw knowledge itself doesn't seem to be a better approach than just studying it in a book.
 
Again...the bolded isn't pimping...it's being a douche-canoe.

When I "pimp" residents and med students, frankly, all I want them to do is take 5 or 10 seconds and think before they just blurt out the answer they learned for Step 2/3. And I try to tailor it for the level of the "learner." Asking a med student or intern a fellow (or attending) level question is just a big dick contest where everybody loses.

:laugh: Love it.
 
Most doctors are lousy teachers, it doesn't matter the method they use. They pass on their lousiness and the younger generation considers it standard and right and the cycle continues.

Take a little time and learn about teaching and you will go a long way toward improving your own method.
 
Like others have said, if done properly pimping is effective and is the medical version of the Socratic method.

I agree that at times it can become malignant under certain circumstances. We all have some stories of this.
 
Otherwise, I think for medical and more procedural specialties that pimping should be restricted to management. Lots of this stuff is not in books and may depend on clinical reasoning and being "medically" sensible. Hopefully the Socratic method here works in the same way as in law, in that it brings out key ways of thinking that aren't (and cannot be) outlined in a book. Pimping on raw knowledge itself doesn't seem to be a better approach than just studying it in a book.

I agree. Getting pimped on things that are really clinical judgement calls sucks, especially when the pimper thinks his/her take on the subject is the only 'correct' one.
 
I agree. Getting pimped on things that are really clinical judgement calls sucks, especially when the pimper thinks his/her take on the subject is the only 'correct' one.

This is a good point. I openly say to my students that there are lots of different ways to do things. That's why central line kits have so many things in them. When most attendings say "This is how you do it." what they usually mean is "This is how I do it." There are very few things in medicine that are written in stone. One example is that if you can't intubate and you can't ventilate you cut. Aside from things like that there's a lot of style involved.

Every attending needs to recognize when there are management choices and explain them. We also have to have a filter that notices when we're asking a question that amounts to "Guess what I'm thinking." and stop and just say it in a non-Socratic manner.

One thing that's really important for students and residents to know is that one of your jobs during your education is to seek out attendings who you think are doing a good job and emulate them. Conversely take note of the things that the doctors you don't want to be like do and avoid those actions. Part of your education is to get to see a spectrum of practice styles.
 
I think it has a place in clinical practice as well. Just not the "How do you do xxx?" I word it as "What ways can we do xxx?" "What's the evidence behind it?" etc.
On the flip side, I've noticed a lot more people just saying "I don't know" instead of trying to have an intellectual conversation. Not sure how to motivate the unmotivated.
 
I love getting pimped. The one thing that bothered me as a med student was getting pimped by an attending (who would evaluate me) only a single time. So if I couldn't answer a single pimp question, I would essentially appear to know nothing at all. So I think its good to establish a pimper-pimpee relationship.
 
I love getting pimped. The one thing that bothered me as a med student was getting pimped by an attending (who would evaluate me) only a single time. So if I couldn't answer a single pimp question, I would essentially appear to know nothing at all. So I think its good to establish a pimper-pimpee relationship.

I personally don't like it, but according to one of the PDs at Ohio State, it's one of the most effective ways of "teaching" because it's an emotionally charged situation, and the information is supposed to be stored in memory better than other teaching methods.

I don't know if I agree, I think there are better teaching methods.
 
I personally don't like it, but according to one of the PDs at Ohio State, it's one of the most effective ways of "teaching" because it's an emotionally charged situation, and the information is supposed to be stored in memory better than other teaching methods.

I don't know if I agree, I think there are better teaching methods.

Is it feasible to employ any of those better methods during rounds? One of the reasons that pimping has persisted is that it lends itself to the environment.
 
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