Docs/Students saying it's "easier to make money elsewhere??"

[Aimless1990]

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There's a strange phenemonon that's been troubling me ever since I understood what a "career" really was.

Whenever I discuss my chosen career path with Doctors or Students alike; I always recieve the same, redundant, abashed response.

"It's easier to make MORE money doing other things

I've never understood why this is said repeatedly. It almost seems like Docs are trying to prevent others from fulfilling their dream with absurd remarks like the one above. If it's really that easy, then why are most Doctor's children also Docs? If the field is sucked dry of the once lucrative roots, why are so many people still competing for the seats? Finally, WHAT field really makes more money than Medicine?

Also, please be realistic in your responses; we all know that becoming a CEO is pretty much like winning the lottery; you don't see people saying "buy a lottery ticket" now do you?

 

[Knicks]

My guess is, that comment is aimed at those who go into medicine "just for the money". Otherwise, it's a pretty useless thing to say.

 

[Mr hawkings]

My guess is, that comment is aimed at those who go into medicine "just for the money". Otherwise, it's a pretty useless thing to say.

👍
In the past, some people went into medicine solely fo rthe money. now its not worth it for the money because you could make the same if not more money with less time put into your training.
An MBA after college would pretty much take care of it if all you want is the paycheck instead of 4 years of med school+another 3years residency after college. Thats almost 12 years of higher education. The money is no longer good enough to do it for the money alone. You have to want to do this

 

[Perrotfish]

Also, please be realistic in your responses; we all know that becoming a CEO is pretty much like winning the lottery; you don't see people saying "buy a lottery ticket" now do you?

I think that medicine is a relatively unique field in that most of its members will never need to learn to deal with any significant failure. 'Success' in medicine is surprisingly attainable. Except for a few positions in academic medicine there is no never ending series of promotions, no board room to strive for, no jackass bosses (after residency) to constantly remind you that you're not measuring up, and no real competition for customers because the demand for physicians is so much greater than the supply. You hit attending and you have peaked, automatically. Which means that every physician gets to be a superstar in his/her own mind, because most physicians have never encountered a hurdle that they couldn't clear.

The result is that most physicians I've met assume that they would have achieved the maximum level of success in any field. They would have been CEOs, or the top traders on Wall Street, or would have scored one of the few remaining tenure spots in an overcrowded academia. Or maybe they just would have relaxed and pulled in a few hundred thousand a year as an enterprising plumber, or started home businesses that they would then have sold for millions a year or two later. Compared to what they imagine they could have been, Medicine looks like a pretty raw deal.

Now these physicians know perfectly well that most graduate students end up in perpetual post-docs, that newly minted MBAs and lawyers often have trouble finding any work at all (let alone work that pays hundreds of thousands of dollars and has real job security). They know that plumbers average 35K/year and that most small business go bankrupt. However they firmly believe that they would have been the exception because they are just that F-ing good. When they tell you that you could be doing better they're not lying to try to disuade you from the field, they genuinely believe that pulling down 250K for 50 hours/week of work is so far beneath their potential that's it's charity work.

I maintain that most people with a similar intelligence and drive as the average medical school matriculant who pursues a different training path will end up working more hours for less money, and that someone who wants to maximize their likely earning potential should seriously consider medicine. The fact that it's good work from a moral perspective and is mostly cubilce free is gravy.

 

[Momentum70]

Agree with above posters that it is to discourage people going into it just for the money. And you cant use the parents excuse. Lots of people end up doing what their parents did, whether it be firemen, policemen, nurses, etc. Most of the guys on my dad's side of the family are construction workers and my moms side is farmers and ranchers. people follow in their parents footsteps.

 

[kdburton]

I think that medicine is a relatively unique field in that most of its members will never need to learn to deal with any significant failure. 'Success' in medicine is surprisingly attainable. Except for a few positions in academic medicine there is no never ending series of promotions, no board room to strive for, no jackass bosses (after residency) to constantly remind you that you're not measuring up, and no real competition for customers because the demand for physicians is so much greater than the supply. You hit attending and you have peaked, automatically. Which means that every physician gets to be a superstar in his/her own mind, because most physicians have never encountered a hurdle that they couldn't clear.

The result is that most physicians I've met assume that they would have achieved the maximum level of success in any field. They would have been CEOs, or the top traders on Wall Street, or would have scored one of the few remaining tenure spots in an overcrowded academia. Or maybe they just would have relaxed and pulled in a few hundred thousand a year as an enterprising plumber, or started home businesses that they would then have sold for millions a year or two later. Compared to what they imagine they could have been, Medicine looks like a pretty raw deal.

Now these physicians know perfectly well that most graduate students end up in perpetual post-docs, that newly minted MBAs and lawyers often have trouble finding any work at all (let alone work that pays hundreds of thousands of dollars and has real job security). They know that plumbers average 35K/year and that most small business go bankrupt. However they firmly believe that they would have been the exception because they are just that F-ing good. When they tell you that you could be doing better they're not lying to try to disuade you from the field, they genuinely believe that pulling down 250K for 50 hours/week of work is so far beneath their potential that's it's charity work.

I maintain that most people with a similar intelligence and drive as the average medical school matriculant who pursues a different training path will end up working more hours for less money, and that someone who wants to maximize their likely earning potential should seriously consider medicine. The fact that it's good work from a moral perspective and is mostly cubilce free is gravy.

I agree with this. I love it when people say stuff like "if you're just going into it for the money then you should have gone into investment banking" or something along those lines. Well guess what... I went to a pretty decent business school before medical school and my friends from undergrad - many very intelligent people - aren't doing so well in today's economy (or even before the economy went to **** for that matter. The smartest/luckiest ones who landed great jobs right out of undergrad are barely cracking the six-figure mark. Sure you can be the guy who starts up a company or got some high-paying sales position, etc, but those jobs are few and far between and you are probably working more than the average physician in a lot of those positions anyways. You will be making more money as a physician than the average person who tries to pursue the MBA, JD, etc route except possibly in traditionally "low-paying" specialties like FM, peds, etc. Plus when you become a lawyer you don't get to do cool stuff like put screws in peoples' bones and all that jazz. I feel like 99% of the docs I worked with over the last year loved their jobs - sure they complain about this and that, but they're still better off than if they were working for one of the 250+ banks that failed in 2010 already.

 

[michaelrack]

[QUOTE;9883194]. When they tell you that you could be doing better they're not lying to try to disuade you from the field, they genuinely believe that pulling down 250K for 50 hours/week of work is so far beneath their potential that's it's charity work..[/SIZE]
. [/SIZE].[/QUOTE]

Most of us doctors who make $250K or more per year work well over 50 hrs/wk. 50 hrs/wk would be like a vacation to me

 

[basupran]

Bear in mind that most people making those statements never held a real job/career.

HS-->College-->Med School-->Residency-->Attendingdom

They don't know what it's like to work as a mechanic changing head gaskets in a 95 degree shop to make a hundred bucks...or to work as an engineer just hoping to have a job next year...

 

[Mmm sprinkles]

With the amount of time it takes to become a doctor, combined with the average work week and stress level, there are easier ways to make a comparable amount of money with less stress and hassle. That's not to say that these options are a lot easier, but they're often much easier than medicine and almost universally less stressful.

The comment is really targeted towards those entering medicine for the wrong reason: money. People who do it for this reason will find little comfort in their future earning potential when they're working 80+ hour weeks for less than a janitor makes.

 

[PteFabulous]

Agree with above posters that it is to discourage people going into it just for the money. And you cant use the parents excuse. Lots of people end up doing what their parents did, whether it be firemen, policemen, nurses, etc. Most of the guys on my dad's side of the family are construction workers and my moms side is farmers and ranchers. people follow in their parents footsteps.

Agreed.

And yes while most people will never become a CEO of a company and makes tons of money, there are still plenty of professions where you can make good money for much less schooling, like engineering.

 

[Knicks]

I agree with this. I love it when people say stuff like "if you're just going into it for the money then you should have gone into investment banking" or something along those lines. Well guess what... I went to a pretty decent business school before medical school and my friends from undergrad - many very intelligent people - aren't doing so well in today's economy (or even before the economy went to **** for that matter. The smartest/luckiest ones who landed great jobs right out of undergrad are barely cracking the six-figure mark. Sure you can be the guy who starts up a company or got some high-paying sales position, etc, but those jobs are few and far between and you are probably working more than the average physician in a lot of those positions anyways. You will be making more money as a physician than the average person who tries to pursue the MBA, JD, etc route except possibly in traditionally "low-paying" specialties like FM, peds, etc. Plus when you become a lawyer you don't get to do cool stuff like put screws in peoples' bones and all that jazz. I feel like 99% of the docs I worked with over the last year loved their jobs - sure they complain about this and that, but they're still better off than if they were working for one of the 250+ banks that failed in 2010 already.

 

[morning]

👍
In the past, some people went into medicine solely fo rthe money. now its not worth it for the money because you could make the same if not more money with less time put into your training.
An MBA after college would pretty much take care of it if all you want is the paycheck instead of 4 years of med school+another 3years residency after college. Thats almost 12 years of higher education. The money is no longer good enough to do it for the money alone. You have to want to do this

I wouldn't give that advice to anyone...MBAs are feeling the squeeze right now like everyone else. It's kinda like law, people think it's a sure bet, but it's actually not that great. Medicine and engineering seem to be the only professions moving full steam ahead...people are always getting sick, especially when they insist on packing on a couple hundred extra pounds.

 

[bronx43]

I think that medicine is a relatively unique field in that most of its members will never need to learn to deal with any significant failure. 'Success' in medicine is surprisingly attainable. Except for a few positions in academic medicine there is no never ending series of promotions, no board room to strive for, no jackass bosses (after residency) to constantly remind you that you're not measuring up, and no real competition for customers because the demand for physicians is so much greater than the supply. You hit attending and you have peaked, automatically. Which means that every physician gets to be a superstar in his/her own mind, because most physicians have never encountered a hurdle that they couldn't clear.

The result is that most physicians I’ve met assume that they would have achieved the maximum level of success in any field. They would have been CEOs, or the top traders on Wall Street, or would have scored one of the few remaining tenure spots in an overcrowded academia. Or maybe they just would have relaxed and pulled in a few hundred thousand a year as an enterprising plumber, or started home businesses that they would then have sold for millions a year or two later. Compared to what they imagine they could have been, Medicine looks like a pretty raw deal.

Now these physicians know perfectly well that most graduate students end up in perpetual post-docs, that newly minted MBAs and lawyers often have trouble finding any work at all (let alone work that pays hundreds of thousands of dollars and has real job security). They know that plumbers average 35K/year and that most small business go bankrupt. However they firmly believe that they would have been the exception because they are just that F-ing good. When they tell you that you could be doing better they're not lying to try to disuade you from the field, they genuinely believe that pulling down 250K for 50 hours/week of work is so far beneath their potential that's it's charity work.

I maintain that most people with a similar intelligence and drive as the average medical school matriculant who pursues a different training path will end up working more hours for less money, and that someone who wants to maximize their likely earning potential should seriously consider medicine. The fact that it's good work from a moral perspective and is mostly cubilce free is gravy.

I almost never say this, but you've said it better than I could have.

From what I've seen (a combination of med students from unranked schools all the way to top 5 schools), a small minority could have made comparable money outside of medicine. Now, that isn't really a knock on medical students as a whole. It's simply that it's harder than people think to make $200k, let alone have it be an economy-proof income. And that's the reason why I think all the threats you hear about students not wanting to go into medicine should reimbursement rates get cut are empty. Doctors can average $150k and top out at 220k, and there would still be a glut of qualified people competing to get into medical school.

 

[bronx43]

With the amount of time it takes to become a doctor, combined with the average work week and stress level, there are easier ways to make a comparable amount of money with less stress and hassle. That's not to say that these options are a lot easier, but they're often much easier than medicine and almost universally less stressful.

The comment is really targeted towards those entering medicine for the wrong reason: money. People who do it for this reason will find little comfort in their future earning potential when they're working 80+ hour weeks for less than a janitor makes.

Can you shed some light on what these high paying, less stressful, and less time-consuming professions are? I really want to know, because medical students repeat this tripe all the time without actually giving me career examples.

And please don't say something stupid like "porn star" or "start up the next Google."

 

[hithere3387]

I almost never say this, but you've said it better than I could have.

From what I've seen (a combination of med students from unranked schools all the way to top 5 schools), a small minority could have made comparable money outside of medicine. Now, that isn't really a knock on medical students as a whole. It's simply that it's harder than people think to make $200k, let alone have it be an economy-proof income. And that's the reason why I think all the threats you hear about students not wanting to go into medicine should reimbursement rates get cut are empty. Doctors can average $150k and top out at 220k, and there would still be a glut of qualified people competing to get into medical school.

👍

 

[FlowRate]

Freaking awesome, level headed post.

Bear in mind that most people making those statements never held a real job/career.

HS-->College-->Med School-->Residency-->Attendingdom

They don't know what it's like to work as a mechanic changing head gaskets in a 95 degree shop to make a hundred bucks...or to work as an engineer just hoping to have a job next year...

This is what I remind myself every time I'm tempted to take the "easy way" and just use my undergrad degree... All the engineers we have come talk to us only have a job for a few years at a time.

 

[Mmm sprinkles]

Can you shed some light on what these high paying, less stressful, and less time-consuming professions are? I really want to know, because medical students repeat this tripe all the time without actually giving me career examples.

And please don't say something stupid like "porn star" or "start up the next Google."

Engineer
PhD Level Researcher
Professor at a community college
Marketing
Sales
Business Management
Mechanic
Plumber (union)
Electrician
Nursing (NP's can certainly make a lot)
Anesthesiologist assistant (start at over 100k)
And dozens more

Keep in mind that I said comparable amount of money (I never said high paying, and if you think that even the majority of doctors are highly paid, then you need to check the stats), and it becomes more comparable when we factor in education time and expense, loan repayment, and stress. These jobs are by no means easy, but they simply do not carry the stress level, responsibility, or ridiculous amount of training that entails becoming a physician. If a person applies himself/herself (truly applies) in almost any field, then that person is likely to be successful (particularly if they're good with managing their money).
Being a physician has higher job security and a higher average pay if one succeeds, but if you think for a second that it's not more difficult to do than the vast majority of other fields, then you sir are a *****. How many premeds couldn't even make it past physics? Organic chemistry? The MCAT? Applying? The fact that those who make it to medical school succeed says more about the difficulty of getting in than the ease of finishing.

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[Mmm sprinkles]

Can you shed some light on what these high paying, less stressful, and less time-consuming professions are? I really want to know, because medical students repeat this tripe all the time without actually giving me career examples.

And please don't say something stupid like "porn star" or "start up the next Google."

BTW, the highest paid porn stars and the people who start up companies like google make way more money than nearly all of the highest paid doctors. There are porn stars taking in over 10 million per year (rare, but they do exist). And the google-style success stories, they make more money than doctors can dream about. These types of careers (google, not porn stars) are not even comparable in salary. As another responder said, it's more analogous to hitting the lottery.

 

[hithere3387]

Engineer
PhD Level Researcher
Professor at a community college
Marketing
Sales
Business Management
Mechanic
Plumber (union)
Electrician
Nursing (NP's can certainly make a lot)
Anesthesiologist assistant (start at over 100k)
And dozens more

Keep in mind that I said comparable amount of money (I never said high paying, and if you think that even the majority of doctors are highly paid, then you need to check the stats), and it becomes more comparable when we factor in education time and expense, loan repayment, and stress. These jobs are by no means easy, but they simply do not carry the stress level, responsibility, or ridiculous amount of training that entails becoming a physician. If a person applies himself/herself (truly applies) in almost any field, then that person is likely to be successful (particularly if they're good with managing their money).
Being a physician has higher job security and a higher average pay if one succeeds, but if you think for a second that it's not more difficult to do than the vast majority of other fields, then you sir are a *****. How many premeds couldn't even make it past physics? Organic chemistry? The MCAT? Applying? The fact that those who make it to medical school succeed says more about the difficulty of getting in than the ease of finishing.

Of the careers that you've listed, I believe that only the NP and CRNA have comparable job security, stress, and guaranteed high salary to that of a physician. At best, the rest of those fields are 2 of 3. I think bronx43 makes an excellent point when he states that even if salaries for physicians continue to fall, the field will remain competitive. The life of a physician, while no picnic, is guaranteed to have a high investment return, consistently, and predictably. Further, you're in charge. You cannot say that for any of the other fields that you've listed.

 

[MOHS_01]

What is all of this "guaranteed high salary" BS that keeps getting bandied about? Most docs do not work for a salary, those who do are less compensated on the whole when compared to their production/profit motivated counterparts, and there is abso-f'ing-lutely nothing "guaranteed" about any of this. For Pete's sake -- go talk to a pathologist or two before buying into this line of horse dung.

...and the shift from the profit based system to an employed corporate salaried system is one that is not welcome and will drive down physician reimbursement. Significantly. Bye-bye money. Bye-bye autonomy. Bye-bye long term grounded employment. Hello corporate politics, more frequent relocations, and a new type of competitiveness in the workforce. 👎

 

[MOHS_01]

....also, many CRNAs earn more -- and at a significantly greater per hour wage rate -- than many physician specialties. Select NPs/PAs, in select fields do likewise.

 

[Mmm sprinkles]

Of the careers that you've listed, I believe that only the NP and CRNA have comparable job security, stress, and guaranteed high salary to that of a physician. At best, the rest of those fields are 2 of 3. I think bronx43 makes an excellent point when he states that even if salaries for physicians continue to fall, the field will remain competitive. The life of a physician, while no picnic, is guaranteed to have a high investment return, consistently, and predictably. Further, you're in charge. You cannot say that for any of the other fields that you've listed.

I have to disagree with your assertions that physicians are guaranteed a high salary, and that physicians are in charge. Spend some time working as an ER doc and tell me that you're in charge. Spend some time working as a PCP and tell me that you're well compensated. Physicians (MD/DO) are not guaranteed anything except a respected degree. Furthermore, you can't simply compare salaries. McDonald's managers can make $30 per hour. A union mason can make $50 per hour, and work 40-50 hours per week. A mechanic can make a comparable salary. It's considerably easier to become a mason than a physician, and the job security in a union is pretty damn high. I'd say making 100k plus per year, with benefits on top of that, is damn good pay when you don't even need an AS.

The fact is that few of you have ever spent time in the real world. Few of you actually know what options there are. Prior to returning to school, I worked in tree removal making $30 per hour, plus overtime, plus benefits. The job was tough, but the training consisted of my time working with my father on our own property. I have a younger brother who has solely a HS diploma. He works in sales in NYC making 85k per year. He works literally 30 hours per week. Did he put in time to get where he is? Of course. But as I said, THERE IS NO JOB THAT HAS DECENT PAY OR A SHRED OF SECURITY THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE HARD WORK. But there are plenty whose difficulty level is nowhere near that of becoming a physician.

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[bronx43]

Engineer
PhD Level Researcher
Professor at a community college
Marketing
Sales
Business Management
Mechanic
Plumber (union)
Electrician
Nursing (NP's can certainly make a lot)
Anesthesiologist assistant (start at over 100k)
And dozens more

Keep in mind that I said comparable amount of money (I never said high paying, and if you think that even the majority of doctors are highly paid, then you need to check the stats), and it becomes more comparable when we factor in education time and expense, loan repayment, and stress. These jobs are by no means easy, but they simply do not carry the stress level, responsibility, or ridiculous amount of training that entails becoming a physician. If a person applies himself/herself (truly applies) in almost any field, then that person is likely to be successful (particularly if they're good with managing their money).
Being a physician has higher job security and a higher average pay if one succeeds, but if you think for a second that it's not more difficult to do than the vast majority of other fields, then you sir are a *****. How many premeds couldn't even make it past physics? Organic chemistry? The MCAT? Applying? The fact that those who make it to medical school succeed says more about the difficulty of getting in than the ease of finishing.

Wow, what a list. I fully expected you to list some professions in finance or consulting, but instead, you picked some of the least lucrative industries in business - "sales" and "marketing." And I honestly have no idea what job "business management" is, since that title can literally be applied to a myriad of industries and positions.
There is honestly no comparison when it comes to these business professions and medicine when it comes to income potential. In sales and marketing, if you're damned good and lucky enough, you might max out at executive and pull $150k. But, that's basically the realistic ceiling - in fact, the vast majority will never make it to executive. And no, just because someone can get into medical school doesn't mean they can hit executive at a marketing firm or VP in the sales department. It doesn't work like that, given the vastly different skill sets and the infusion of luck in the business world.
If you're suggesting that plumbers, electricians, and mechanics make more than physicians, then I'd really like to see where you're pulling these numbers. I can believe that the hardest working plumber can make more than the physicians in the 10th percentile, but such a comparison is disingenuous.
Engineers actually have pretty crappy income potential. You start at 50-60k, and if you're good, you might reach $120k by the time you're in your 40s. My brother was a EE at a top 20 university, until he realize how crappy engineers' income potential was and switched to management consulting.
The only valid entry on that list is CRNA, but honestly, why not just go be an anesthesiologist and double that income?

You're also forgetting dentistry. That's the one field I honestly believe provides a better lifestyle and comparable income and stability to medicine.

 

[Mmm sprinkles]

Wow, what a list. I fully expected you to list some professions in finance or consulting, but instead, you picked some of the least lucrative industries in business - "sales" and "marketing." And I honestly have no idea what job "business management" is, since that title can literally be applied to a myriad of industries and positions.
There is honestly no comparison when it comes to these business professions and medicine when it comes to income potential. In sales and marketing, if you're damned good and lucky enough, you might max out at executive and pull $150k. But, that's basically the realistic ceiling - in fact, the vast majority will never make it to executive. And no, just because someone can get into medical school doesn't mean they can hit executive at a marketing firm or VP in the sales department. It doesn't work like that, given the vastly different skill sets and the infusion of luck in the business world.
If you're suggesting that plumbers, electricians, and mechanics make more than physicians, then I'd really like to see where you're pulling these numbers. I can believe that the hardest working plumber can make more than the physicians in the 10th percentile, but such a comparison is disingenuous.
Engineers actually have pretty crappy income potential. You start at 50-60k, and if you're good, you might reach $120k by the time you're in your 40s. My brother was a EE at a top 20 university, until he realize how crappy engineers' income potential was and switched to management consulting.
The only valid entry on that list is CRNA, but honestly, why not just go be an anesthesiologist and double that income?

You're also forgetting dentistry. That's the one field I honestly believe provides a better lifestyle and comparable income and stability to medicine.

First, sales and marketing are extremely broad, but that's due to the inherent nature of the fields. Calling them the least lucrative shows your utter lack of knowledge, but it may also be that we define lucrative differently. Making 100k a year is lucrative to me. Making 250k a year is overkill and unnecessary. Making 500k is ridiculous. Finance and consulting are nearly as broad as business management, and can be the least lucrative fields. Think of a life coach the next time you think of consulting. And business manager means exactly that, manage a business. You want a specific, a McDonald's manager can make 80k per year easily. A CVS manager can make roughly the same. District managers for analogous companies make more (up to 120k in some companies) and so forth. All these positions require is dedication and reasonable intelligence.

I NEVER said that plumbers, mechanics, etc make more or even roughly the same as physicians (keep displaying those excellent reading skills). I said they have a comparable income when we consider training, stress, and so forth.

With regards to engineering, it's comedic that you consider a starting salary of 50k after a FOUR YEAR DEGREE to be crappy. Furthermore, you completely disregard that an MD graduate stands to make at most 50k a year for his residency, and the VAST majority of physicians will not crack 140k until their 40s. You also disregard the fact that experienced engineers can pull in 800k per year incomes.

You can become an anesthesiologist assistant with two years of education following a 4 year degree. It's even possible to do this with two years of education following an AA. An anesthesiologist assistant is not the same as a CRNA, but I thank you for adding another field to the list. We should add accounting to the list as well since you seem focused on finance.
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/40/aa0809.pdf

You have completely missed the point of my original post. I was simply stating that with hard work, dedication, and luck, you can succeed in any field. Medicine is no different. I was also stating that if money is your goal, medicine is a waste of your time. You will find the career wholly unsatisfying, particularly when we consider the future of medicine. But hey, whatever you want to tell yourself on those long days of studying through medical school. I guarantee you that you'll regret this decision in 20 years.

You were right about one thing. You cannot compare the income potential in the business world to the income potential of physicians. Tell me a single physician listed in Forbes. Just one...

 

[Perrotfish]

I know many electrical engineers who had net worths well over $250K by the time they were 25, and I'm sure that number exploded by the time they were 30 (can't give an average because as you get older you realize how uncouth it is to talk salaries).

Case in point: I am good friends with a couple (both EEs) who have a home assessed at $1.2 million by the city that is owned free and clear, they just bought a vacation condo at a ski resort (not sure if mortgaged), and they annually take month long vacations to exotic locations. Oh, and they work on average less than 50 hours a week on a M-F schedule, paid their own way through university, and they are only 32.

But no one gets laid on the sole basis that they are an engineer 😛

/the true reason why guys want to be doctors!

I was (briefly) an engineer. You're right in that engineering is the job most comporable to medicine in that you can put a ton of work in school and then have a good salary and good job security later. However the salries most definitely do NOT explode after you hit 30, unless you're one of the lucky few that weasels his way into a management position. The problem with engineering is that the incentives are very front loaded. You're hired at an amazing salary leaving college, then you see 10-20 years of small but adequate raises as your technical skills lose value relative to recent graduates, and then if you fail to get into a management job (which very few people do) you start desperately struggling to hold on to your job at all and probably end up either unemployed or doing HVAC crud for a terrible salary.

Also I know very few engineers, even the happy ones, that work 50 hours a week on a M-F schedule. Generally that's the baseline, but it's interupted every week or two when your boss comes up with a new schedule or artificial deadline

 

[Forven]

Engineer
PhD Level Researcher
Professor at a community college
Marketing
Sales
Business Management
Mechanic
Plumber (union)
Electrician
Nursing (NP's can certainly make a lot)
Anesthesiologist assistant (start at over 100k)
And dozens more

Keep in mind that I said comparable amount of money (I never said high paying, and if you think that even the majority of doctors are highly paid, then you need to check the stats), and it becomes more comparable when we factor in education time and expense, loan repayment, and stress. These jobs are by no means easy, but they simply do not carry the stress level, responsibility, or ridiculous amount of training that entails becoming a physician. If a person applies himself/herself (truly applies) in almost any field, then that person is likely to be successful (particularly if they're good with managing their money).
Being a physician has higher job security and a higher average pay if one succeeds, but if you think for a second that it's not more difficult to do than the vast majority of other fields, then you sir are a *****. How many premeds couldn't even make it past physics? Organic chemistry? The MCAT? Applying? The fact that those who make it to medical school succeed says more about the difficulty of getting in than the ease of finishing.

wait...so if we get into medical school the chances of success exponentially increases?

i like the sound of that. 👍

 

[pulmonary kid]

I think what needs to be driven home here, is a comparison of average earning potential among fields.

It's irrelevant to compare the top earning plumbers to the lowest earning physicians. It all comes down to what the majority can earn. If 10 out of 10 physicians can start off earning 150k+ while 1 in 100 plumbers earns 100k+.. well there's no comparison.

As for the anomalies in other fields, i.e. Mark Zuckerbergs and Sergey Brins of the world, well their chances of attaining such income levels are incalculable. So what would you rather do? Go to medical school and find a level of unmatched job security? Or play the lottery?

 

[Mmm sprinkles]

I think what needs to be driven home here, is a comparison of average earning potential among fields.

It's irrelevant to compare the top earning plumbers to the lowest earning physicians. It all comes down to what the majority can earn. If 10 out of 10 physicians can start off earning 150k+ while 1 in 100 plumbers earns 100k+.. well there's no comparison.

As for the anomalies in other fields, i.e. Mark Zuckerbergs and Sergey Brins of the world, well their chances of attaining such income levels are incalculable. So what would you rather do? Go to medical school and find a level of unmatched job security? Or play the lottery?

If we make the comparison solely on salaries, then you're right it is irrelevant. But if we wish to compare length of training, stress, job security, benefits, and job satisfaction then we can discuss the two together. Plumbers can easily make 100k per year, and their training is mostly on the job.
I would never enter medicine for money or job security. I'm entering medicine because I can't imagine doing anything else. If you need secure access to over 150k per year, then maybe medicine is for you. This is especially true if you're just intelligent enough to get in (which is not saying too much), and just dumb enough to see no other options. But even then, if one believes that they are guaranteed anywhere near 200k a year, they are sorely mistaken. The average net income for the highest paid specialties were just over 200k per year. If you're hoping to strike it rich, medicine is simply not the ticket. You'd have better luck pitching detox cleanses than being a plastic surgeon.

 

[hithere3387]

What is all of this "guaranteed high salary" BS that keeps getting bandied about? Most docs do not work for a salary, those who do are less compensated on the whole when compared to their production/profit motivated counterparts, and there is abso-f'ing-lutely nothing "guaranteed" about any of this. For Pete's sake -- go talk to a pathologist or two before buying into this line of horse dung.

...and the shift from the profit based system to an employed corporate salaried system is one that is not welcome and will drive down physician reimbursement. Significantly. Bye-bye money. Bye-bye autonomy. Bye-bye long term grounded employment. Hello corporate politics, more frequent relocations, and a new type of competitiveness in the workforce. 👎

Excellent point. I should not have used that phrase. It isn't at all what I meant, and it was quite misleading. What I meant is that currently, the average salary of a physician is significantly higher than the aforementioned fields.

 

[MOHS_01]

bronx,

I can name you a number of sales / marketing guys who pull in north of 250k; these range from drug reps to ortho hardware reps to DME reps to paper (yes, paper products) -- and these are all local acquaintances in a town of 70k population. I personally know several mid level plant managers who pull in 150k'ish in salary around the state. I know federal probation / parole officers who pull in 100-120k salary. The only two insurance agents I know won't say what they make exactly, but they acknowledge that it is north of 100k. One of them was talking with my accountant, financial planner, and the realtor I bought my previous house from recently at a local fundraiser; they each were complaining of the phasing out of deductions. This could only imply that their income was solidly in the range where the phase out is noticeable -- at the very minimum low/mid six figures. The point is there are a lot of people pulling earnings at that level, most of which are not bragged about or spoken of. I am most definitely mid pack on the earning ladder of those in my subdivision (where many of these functions/fundraisers are held) -- and I was doing OK for myself at the time (it's amazing how **** falls apart when you relocate and start a new practice 🙁 )....

on edit -- I should qualify by stating that the insurance agents dabble in multiple business ventures as well, but they are both self made men in their mid to late 30's

 

[Perrotfish]

If we make the comparison solely on salaries, then you're right it is irrelevant. But if we wish to compare length of training, stress, job security, benefits, and job satisfaction then we can discuss the two together. Plumbers can easily make 100k per year, and their training is mostly on the job. .

No, no a plumber can not easily make 100K/year. Not even close. Even the average for a master plumber (someone who has finished a 10 year formal training and aprentice program) with 20 years experience does not make 100K. A newly minted journeyman plumber (2 year degree + 2-5 years of apprenticeship for almost no $) won't even clear 50K. It's these kinds of insane misconceptions abut what other people make and how hard they work that cause physicians to feel so put upon. Physicians honestly think that anyone who doesn't wear a jumpsuit to work and most of the people that do make a six figure salary and work barely 40 hours a week. Add that to the fact that physicians think that they could easily double these already insane salaries just by working the number of hours that they're already working and no wonder everyone in medicine thinks that millions are so easy to find in every other profession.

 

[Apollyon]

Applying? The fact that those who make it to medical school succeed says more about the difficulty of getting in than the ease of finishing.

That's been said longer than you've probably been alive: the hardest thing about professional school is getting in. The hardest thing about graduate school is getting out.

 

[Mmm sprinkles]

No, no a plumber can not easily make 100K/year. Not even close. Even the average for a master plumber (someone who has finished a 10 year formal training and aprentice program) with 20 years experience does not make 100K. A newly minted journeyman plumber (2 year degree + 2-5 years of apprenticeship for almost no $) won't even clear 50K. It's these kinds of insane misconceptions abut what other people make and how hard they work that cause physicians to feel so put upon. Physicians honestly think that anyone who doesn't wear a jumpsuit to work and most of the people that do make a six figure salary and work barely 40 hours a week. Add that to the fact that physicians think that they could easily double these already insane salaries just by working the number of hours that they're already working and no wonder everyone in medicine thinks that millions are so easy to find in every other profession.

I overstated the amount for plumbers, but let's compare jobs. How many hours per week does the average plumber work? What happens when a plumber screws up? How much training does it take to become a plumber?

BTW, when I mentioned how much plumbers make, you must forgive me for speaking from my experience dealing with people who owned their own business.

 

[Mmm sprinkles]

Honestly, it's pointless for us to sit here and discuss average salaries of any field. The bottom line is that being successful in any endeavor requires that you work hard, take risks, and have a fair share of luck. This applies to medicine as well. There are no guarantees of high salary, or job security just because you have an MD. Although you have a much better chance with one, getting to that point is not easy. It takes sacrifice and dedication, and it damn well should. Doctors get to hold a special place in our society. Who else but a doctor would someone getting wheeled into a trauma center put their faith in? Nobody should enter this profession solely, or even strongly driven by money, and not because there are easier routes to money, but because patients don't deserve greedy ashole doctors. I've run into far too many dealing with my father's illnesses, and they universally SUCK as physicians. If your interest is money, then for the sake of the god damn country and every patient who's life you will make shttier please stay the fck out of medicine!

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[Perrotfish]

Honestly, it's pointless for us to sit here and discuss average salaries of any field. The bottom line is that being successful in any endeavor requires that you work hard, take risks, and have a fair share of luck. This applies to medicine as well. There are no guarantees of high salary, or job security just because you have an MD. Although you have a much better chance with one, getting to that point is not easy. It takes sacrifice and dedication, and it damn well should. Doctors get to hold a special place in our society. Who else but a doctor would someone getting wheeled into a trauma center put their faith in? Nobody should enter this profession solely, or even strongly driven by money, and not because there are easier routes to money, but because patients don't deserve greedy ashole doctors. I've run into far too many dealing with my father's illnesses, and they universally SUCK as physicians. If your interest is money, then for the sake of the god damn country and every patient who's life you will make shttier please stay the fck out of medicine!

I think it's worth having this argument because I think people need to realize what medicine is not. Medicine is not charity work. There are a surprising number of physicians who, I have noticed, seem to think it is socially and morally appropriate to consider themselves martyrs to their profession because they work long hours in exchange for (what I consider to be) a lot of money, respect, independence, and job security. That isn't charity, or anything close. It's not in any way wrong, but it is nothing more than a fair exchange and there are a few reasons I think that physicans need to realize that:

1) There is no better way to end every personal relationship you have outside of your country club than to bemoan the fact that you work 60 hours a week for a mere 200K/year. The easiest way to annoy everyone around you, in any circumstance, is not to realize how blessed you actually are.

2) When you repeat bad advice, particularly as a physician, there is a good chance that you might convince someone to act on it. I'm not sure any premed would go so far as to become a plumber, but if you (against all statistical evidence) tell everyone about the easy hours and great money they could make as a PhD you could absolutely convince some poor soul to confine themselve to a perpetual post-doc rather than pursuing a lucrative career in medicine.

3) I'm a very religious man, and I firmly believe that we have an obligation to do real, selfless work for those around us, and that one day we will need to answer to a higher power for what we have done and what we have failed to do. I cringe at the thought of these legions of physicians looking back over their lives and trying claim selflessness because worked 80 hours a week during 3 years of residency and only recieved hundreds of thousands of dollars (every year, for the rest of their lives) in exchange. When you delude yourself into thinking that you're getting a raw deal when you're not you will unjustly mitigate the obligation you feel to pass those blessings you've recieved on to others in need.

Anyway, I am now 12 hours from starting an Internal Medicine rotation, so I'm signing off SDN for the next 8 weeks and y'all can have the last word.

 

[KTownGT]

We should all open massive ornate churches in the south... Or, be a hedge fund managers.

Since those jobs are much easier to obtain.

 

[Danae00]

I was (briefly) an engineer. You're right in that engineering is the job most comporable to medicine in that you can put a ton of work in school and then have a good salary and good job security later. However the salries most definitely do NOT explode after you hit 30, unless you're one of the lucky few that weasels his way into a management position. The problem with engineering is that the incentives are very front loaded. You're hired at an amazing salary leaving college, then you see 10-20 years of small but adequate raises as your technical skills lose value relative to recent graduates, and then if you fail to get into a management job (which very few people do) you start desperately struggling to hold on to your job at all and probably end up either unemployed or doing HVAC crud for a terrible salary.

Also I know very few engineers, even the happy ones, that work 50 hours a week on a M-F schedule. Generally that's the baseline, but it's interupted every week or two when your boss comes up with a new schedule or artificial deadline

The problem with discussions like this is that they are very location dependent. Also, when you look at what the "average" person in a certain field makes that doesn't necessarily correspond to what someone who is capable of getting into med school can do. A better comparison would be to look the success of engineering students who graduated in the top 15% of their class.

All I can tell you is that in my area and with my peers (who were some of the top students in their fields -- us nerds like to hang out together) there is great money to be made in some of the engineering and technology fields. And when you get paid OT for anything over 37.5 hours of work they do tend to keep your weekly hours fairly low (this is not mandated by law but it is a common incentive in my city to attract the best workers).

If all you want is money, and you're very smart, business savvy, and personable, then you can make a killing in the engineering and other tech fields. But I know multiple people (myself included) who are leaving these great tech jobs to find a career that they are more passionate about. In my case, I'm going back to school only to end up in a health care field where I likely will never make close to my current salary. But I'll be happier for it 🙂

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[Mmm sprinkles]

Sorry, but can't somebody be a "greedy ******* doctor" and still be a competent physician? Who cares what their motivations are as long as they get the job done? Unless you are proposing that the money-hungry clinicians wouldn't do as good of a job as the benevolent soul?

In our current system the answer is no. Someone cannot be a greedy ******* doctor and still be a competent physician. Profit based medicine will always, without exception, lower the quality of medical care. No system can reconcile greediness and patient needs; not even one in which a greedy physician is paid based on patient outcome and satisfaction. Not even one based solely on satisfaction. In systems in which outcome is considered, doctors will avoid difficult cases (surgeons deal with this now, and try getting a potentially life saving surgery if your chance of survival is only 15%). Insofar as satisfaction is concerned, look no further than homeopaths and their legions of satisfied customers.

Do not confuse my arguments; physicians are not volunteers, nor should they be. Physicians deserve compensation on par with the time investment (and monetary investment) of their training and difficulty of their career. They must also remember that they serve a vital function in society, and that sickness is not something that should inspire thoughts of Mercedes and 6000 square foot houses. It is simply wrong to enter this field driven by money.

 

[Mmm sprinkles]

I think it's worth having this argument because I think people need to realize what medicine is not. Medicine is not charity work. There are a surprising number of physicians who, I have noticed, seem to think it is socially and morally appropriate to consider themselves martyrs to their profession because they work long hours in exchange for (what I consider to be) a lot of money, respect, independence, and job security. That isn't charity, or anything close. It's not in any way wrong, but it is nothing more than a fair exchange and there are a few reasons I think that physicans need to realize that:

1) There is no better way to end every personal relationship you have outside of your country club than to bemoan the fact that you work 60 hours a week for a mere 200K/year. The easiest way to annoy everyone around you, in any circumstance, is not to realize how blessed you actually are.

2) When you repeat bad advice, particularly as a physician, there is a good chance that you might convince someone to act on it. I'm not sure any premed would go so far as to become a plumber, but if you (against all statistical evidence) tell everyone about the easy hours and great money they could make as a PhD you could absolutely convince some poor soul to confine themselve to a perpetual post-doc rather than pursuing a lucrative career in medicine.

3) I'm a very religious man, and I firmly believe that we have an obligation to do real, selfless work for those around us, and that one day we will need to answer to a higher power for what we have done and what we have failed to do. I cringe at the thought of these legions of physicians looking back over their lives and trying claim selflessness because worked 80 hours a week during 3 years of residency and only recieved hundreds of thousands of dollars (every year, for the rest of their lives) in exchange. When you delude yourself into thinking that you're getting a raw deal when you're not you will unjustly mitigate the obligation you feel to pass those blessings you've recieved on to others in need.

Anyway, I am now 12 hours from starting an Internal Medicine rotation, so I'm signing off SDN for the next 8 weeks and y'all can have the last word.

You completely missed the point of my post. Physicians are very well compensated, and this is common knowledge. Hard work, dedication, and luck (all things necessary to become a physician) make success far more likely in any field. I have no idea why you would quote me for a post on physician martyrdom. The field I'm working on entering has starting salaries of over 300k at many hospitals. Not only do I consider it a lot of money, I consider it too much money and plan on donating a substantial portion of it to an MD scholarship.

 

[basupran]

The problem with discussions like this is that they are very location dependent. Also, when you look at what the "average" person in a certain field makes that doesn't necessarily correspond to what someone who is capable of getting into med school can do. A better comparison would be to look the success of engineering students who graduated in the top 15% of their class.

Not sure why premeds seem to think that premed is the hardest 'major' in undergrad, but it really isn't. I studied engineering and got the crap kicked out of me- my engineering classes were significantly harder than any of my premed classes, yes even honors orgo chem.

I can promise you that your average doctor wouldn't fall in the top 15% at a respectable engineering program. I can promise you that a top 15% engineering grad would do well above average in med school.

 

[Slack3r]

And please don't say something stupid like "porn star" or "start up the next Google."

Male porn stars get paid crap. Unless you're a big name guy, you probably only make a few hundred dollars per film. Not to say that they don't have a fairly exciting job...

Also I know very few engineers, even the happy ones, that work 50 hours a week on a M-F schedule. Generally that's the baseline, but it's interupted every week or two when your boss comes up with a new schedule or artificial deadline

My dad is an engineer. He's turning 50 next month and pulls in about $130k. He also hates his job and works 60+ hrs per week. He is constantly worried about losing his job, and up until last month he wasn't even sure his project would be renewed.

on edit -- I should qualify by stating that the insurance agents dabble in multiple business ventures as well, but they are both self made men in their mid to late 30's

Kind of a significant qualifier, don't you think? Are there ways to make more money than in medicine? Yes. Are there many other careers that have AVERAGE salaries higher than medicine? I've yet to see anyone point these out.

And btw, no one ever gets rich on salary.

 

[MOHS_01]

In our current system the answer is no. Someone cannot be a greedy ******* doctor and still be a competent physician. Profit based medicine will always, without exception, lower the quality of medical care. No system can reconcile greediness and patient needs; not even one in which a greedy physician is paid based on patient outcome and satisfaction. Not even one based solely on satisfaction. In systems in which outcome is considered, doctors will avoid difficult cases (surgeons deal with this now, and try getting a potentially life saving surgery if your chance of survival is only 15%). Insofar as satisfaction is concerned, look no further than homeopaths and their legions of satisfied customers.

Do not confuse my arguments; physicians are not volunteers, nor should they be. Physicians deserve compensation on par with the time investment (and monetary investment) of their training and difficulty of their career. They must also remember that they serve a vital function in society, and that sickness is not something that should inspire thoughts of Mercedes and 6000 square foot houses. It is simply wrong to enter this field driven by money.

...and one with which I disagree. Rather strongly, actually. No better system has ever been devised for the purpose of progress, innovation, or promoting efficiency than that of competition. Yes, there are drawbacks to this system -- such as the societal undesirability of trade secrets in medicine primarily because the scalability of any given provider simply is not possible for a larger societal gain -- but similar detriments can be found for any system that you, I, or anyone else for that matter, devise; and I am not ready to hand over something as important as our healthcare -- or my livelihood -- to some political philosopher king.

 

[MOHS_01]

Kind of a significant qualifier, don't you think? Are there ways to make more money than in medicine? Yes. Are there many other careers that have AVERAGE salaries higher than medicine? I've yet to see anyone point these out.

And btw, no one ever gets rich on salary.

Not really -- he has some commercial rental property that he financed with credit backed by what amounts to annuity checks from the policies he sold over the past 15 years or so; the beauty of his line of work is that checks continue to come in long after the initial sale, which provides for a somewhat passive income stream affording the opportunity to branch into other things. I have no idea how significant this is, but I do know this -- many of the gents in his line of work are often the buyers at local land auctions, which would tell me they do OK.

I'm not trying to compare the earnings of an interventional cardiology/radiologist, neurosurgeon, CT surgeon, orthopod, etc to these alternative career choices, but once you start comparing peds, psych, family practice, ID, rheum, etc, the comparison becomes not so clear.

 

[Mmm sprinkles]

...and one with which I disagree. Rather strongly, actually. No better system has ever been devised for the purpose of progress, innovation, or promoting efficiency than that of competition. Yes, there are drawbacks to this system -- such as the societal undesirability of trade secrets in medicine primarily because the scalability of any given provider simply is not possible for a larger societal gain -- but similar detriments can be found for any system that you, I, or anyone else for that matter, devise; and I am not ready to hand over something as important as our healthcare -- or my livelihood -- to some political philosopher king.

The greatest innovations in medical history were not driven by profit. Many were born of competition, but rarely was this competition for money. From germ theory to vaccines (think of Dr. Salk) the greatest innovations have never been driven by money. Even today the real advancement is finianced by the government via NIH and NSF grants. This grant money covers research from basic science up through clinical work. Even clinical trials are heavily subsidized. The profit motive did not bring us PCR, but it did drive Roche to sell an innovation made through public funding for a ridiculously inflated price to the tune of over 100 billion.
You, like many Americans, have a religious like adherence to some fictitious free market that exists only in your imagination. Profit is not the only motivator.

 

[MOHS_01]

The greatest innovations in medical history were not driven by profit. Many were born of competition, but rarely was this competition for money. From germ theory to vaccines (think of Dr. Salk) the greatest innovations have never been driven by money. Even today the real advancement is finianced by the government via NIH and NSF grants. This grant money covers research from basic science up through clinical work. Even clinical trials are heavily subsidized. The profit motive did not bring us PCR, but it did drive Roche to sell an innovation made through public funding for a ridiculously inflated price to the tune of over 100 billion.
You, like many Americans, have a religious like adherence to some fictitious free market that exists only in your imagination. Profit is not the only motivator.

Why yes, I do like ice cream and sprinkles... sunshine and daisies... puppy dogs and kittens...

...by the way (and since you brought it up), who came up with PCR? When did he first conceptualize it? Who was he working for at the time? In what country? Thanks -- this was not covered in any of my American history classes....