Doctors are inherently evil, per Obama

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OK I'll bite...

What I got out of that video:
1. PCPs don't get paid a lot, especially to manage complex conditions and do meaningful preventive medicine (a fact).
2. Surgeons get paid a lot to cut diabetic gangrenous limbs when indicated. (also a fact, though the surgeon may not see a lot of that money. The cost to the health care system is the same regardless of who gets the money, though).
3. It makes more sense to increase reimbursements for the guy who helps keep you from getting to the point of needing the amputation than it does to pay a lot more for surgery and all of the problems inherent with living without an extremity. If you're a primary care provider, this is kind of common sense.

What I didn't get out of that video:
Doctors are inherently evil.

Was there more that wasn't played in that clip that actually supports your thread title about Obama's evilness?
 
OK I'll bite...

What I got out of that video:
1. PCPs don't get paid a lot, especially to manage complex conditions and do meaningful preventive medicine (a fact).
2. Surgeons get paid a lot to cut diabetic gangrenous limbs when indicated. (also a fact, though the surgeon may not see a lot of that money. The cost to the health care system is the same regardless of who gets the money, though).
3. It makes more sense to increase reimbursements for the guy who helps keep you from getting to the point of needing the amputation than it does to pay a lot more for surgery and all of the problems inherent with living without an extremity. If you're a primary care provider, this is kind of common sense.

What I didn't get out of that video:
Doctors are inherently evil.

Was there more that wasn't played in that clip that actually supports your thread title about Obama's evilness?
Don't waste your breath--the OP, and others like him, reside in an alternate universe. Nothing we could ever say or do would ever convince them they they are completely divorced from reality.
 

Yes, the standby that every Obama opponent manages to selectively quote rather than understand the point he's making.

While his example is poor, the current system is set up in a way that reimbursements are disproportionately higher for specialty care than preventive care. This is good for specialists but bad for PCPs (and, arguably, for patients).
 
Yes, the standby that every Obama opponent manages to selectively quote rather than understand the point he's making.

While his example is poor, the current system is set up in a way that reimbursements are disproportionately higher for specialty care than preventive care. This is good for specialists but bad for PCPs (and, arguably, for patients).

Remind me again how well PCPs are being reimbursed by Medicare (I won't even get started about Medicaid)...? So why now will this government option suddenly reimburse PCPs leaps and bounds more than what private insurance does, let alone what Medicare does????

More robbing Peter to pay Paul with this administration...
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGZdyq_OiIY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.allvoices.com%2Fcontributed-news%2F3817013-tort-reform-makes-sense-but-democrats-still-resist-it%2Fvideo%2F36537738&feature=player_embedded

Yep, he's 100% behind physicians...I want you to practice ONLY EBM, but if it happens to fail you and you have a bad outcome, bring on the wolves.

Remind me again how well PCPs are being reimbursed by Medicare (I won't even get started about Medicaid)...? So why now will this government option suddenly reimburse PCPs leaps and bounds more than what private insurance does, let alone what Medicare does????

More robbing Peter to pay Paul with this administration...


OK, your frenetic posting-of-links-to-obfuscate-the-issue is just annoying, as well as not a very constructive form of discussion. I notice you still didn't answer my original query regarding "Obama thinks doctors are evil" for commenting that we should put more money into prevention as opposed to expensive end-stage treatment. Was that intentional on your part?

#1-
Malpractice reform isn't in the cards right now. It sucks for us, but it's reality. I'd like to point out to you that in the 8 years of Republican rule, how much tort reform happened? Exactly. Never mind that malpractice caps are a red herring, and should be decided on the state level and not the national level.

#2-
The plan likely won't reimburse more than private insurance. Here's the thing:
if you feel that the public plan isn't reimbursing adequately, you don't have to accept it! Just like you don't have to accept Medicare or Medicaid patients (or, more realistically, limit the number of those patients you take). At least an inexpensive public option will provide a bare minimum of coverage to those who can't afford private insurance, in the event of a potentially financially-ruinous catastrophic illness, you'll at least not have to worry about going into debt over your health.

#3-
Socialized medicine is not the same as single payer, though the Republicans would have you believe otherwise. By the way, the same tired arguments were made against Medicare at its inception in 1965, and in fact the private insurance industry thrived since then. The slippery-slope argument is a little tired.
 
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I'll atleast bite on the preventive medicine concept and how good this would be. Preventive medicine does not save us money for most conditions. I'll even post not a youtube video but an article. The point is that Obama is doing NOTHING to address costs of health care, and why those costs are there. Let's face it as physicians we offer a service, a service that is in great demand. Should a specialist who is removing a foot etc, get paid more than the primary care doctor, absolutely yes. Do they get 50K for that operation, no way in hell. They'd be lucky to get 1K for it.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/7/661

There's your article on preventive medicine. Looking at preventive medicine as we do it now, most efforts do not save costs. I think the article makes a good point that we need to find out what does help reduce costs and focus on that.
 
I'll atleast bite on the preventive medicine concept and how good this would be. Preventive medicine does not save us money for most conditions. I'll even post not a youtube video but an article. The point is that Obama is doing NOTHING to address costs of health care, and why those costs are there. Let's face it as physicians we offer a service, a service that is in great demand. Should a specialist who is removing a foot etc, get paid more than the primary care doctor, absolutely yes. Do they get 50K for that operation, no way in hell. They'd be lucky to get 1K for it.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/7/661

There's your article on preventive medicine. Looking at preventive medicine as we do it now, most efforts do not save costs. I think the article makes a good point that we need to find out what does help reduce costs and focus on that.

From "Can Disease Prevention Save Health Reform?" published in the Annals of Internal Medicine, July 2009: (I've pasted the relevant section of article because it requires a subscription to view.)

In the face of constrained resources, it is reasonable to wonder whether expanding health care to include more prevention interventions is wise. The role of prevention in budget-focused health reform came under question recently after an analysis of hundreds of studies from the past 4 decades showed that most prevention programs usually increase medical spending instead of reduce it (7). Indeed, it may be necessary to focus on the most efficient preventive measures and treatments, as well as those that are not yet fully deployed and those that could serve a large population, to yield "substantial aggregate improvements in health at an acceptable cost," according to a recent report in the New England Journal of Medicine (8).

But holding certain clinical preventive services to the standard of saving money is likely to be an unfair assessment. Most medical treatments do not save money, and rarely do people ask whether an imaging device, a new antibiotic, or a surgical procedure saves money, according to Steven H. Woolf, MD, MPH, a professor in the departments of family medicine, epidemiology, and community health at Virginia Commonwealth University.

"The question of whether prevention saves money is not only off-point, but a bit dangerous right now, because it distracts people from the fundamental question, which is: ‘Are we putting our resources into the services that offer the best value?' Framed that way, you see that most of the prevention services recommended by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force and others cost relatively little per quality-adjusted life-year compared with the services dominating our health care system," Woolf said.

Measuring the cost-effectiveness of preventive interventions is often complicated and confusing. Cost-effectiveness differs depending on whether preventive interventions are undertaken by individuals, the health care system, or community programs, Woolf notes in a commentary (9). He provides an example: When a person increases physical activity, it induces net savings by improving one's health, but counseling by clinicians to persuade patients to exercise is of uncertain effectiveness and cost-effectiveness. The cost-effectiveness of the behavior itself, which saves money, gets confused with the cost-effectiveness of exercise programs or counseling, which is of varied economic value and effectiveness. "This confusion obscures a vital message for public health and the economy: The nation's health care costs and disease rates would be reduced considerably if the public became more active, ate more healthfully, and stopped smoking. The savings would pay for the costs—in time, walking shoes, and nicotine patches—that are incurred to modify these habits. The economics of services to assist people with lifestyle changes are separate from the potent economics that result from the behaviors," he adds.

Ron Goetzel, PhD, director of The Institute for Health and Productivity Studies at Emory University in Atlanta, emphasizes the importance of measuring the value, not the cost savings, that a preventive or treatment service provides. In a report in Health Affairs, Goetzel notes that concern about the cost of prevention is generally alarmist: "Adopting common sense health practices does not require expensive technology, medication, specialty training, or elaborate treatment facilities. Instituting environmental, policy, and normative interventions, in addition to individual behavior change programs, can shift our thinking about how we pay for health" (10).​
 
Something needs to be done about healthcare but he is attacking the wrong people. Every year reimbursement goes down while insurance rates go up. That would mean that insurance companies are making more and more money. They are the problem. Attack them!

In case you haven't been paying attention, the insurance companies aren't exactly thrilled with the idea of having to compete with a public plan for patients.
 
Where do I sign up for the surgical positions which pays me (instantly) 30k all day long to cut off limbs??? Obama told me it goes directly, in full, to me (he even motioned handing a check), and this is a gig I want!!! I love honesty.
 
OK, your frenetic posting-of-links-to-obfuscate-the-issue is just annoying, as well as not a very constructive form of discussion.

I think providing people with actual evidence of what Obama is saying speaks volumes. Your defense of Obama's comments was that he simply was trying to make the point that we should infuse more money into primary care (while apparently taking some of it from specialty care), but you and Obama still have not provided me with evidence as to how he's going to do that. I'm all for increasing reimbursement for primary care. Unfortunately, that's just not going to happen under this so-called reform. What will happen is reduced reimbursement for all.


#1-
Malpractice reform isn't in the cards right now. It sucks for us, but it's reality. I'd like to point out to you that in the 8 years of Republican rule, how much tort reform happened? Exactly. Never mind that malpractice caps are a red herring, and should be decided on the state level and not the national level.

I have never been or will ever be a Republican - why was that even brought up. But since you did bring it up, at least Bush tried for malpractice reform.

#2-
The plan likely won't reimburse more than private insurance. Here's the thing:
if you feel that the public plan isn't reimbursing adequately, you don't have to accept it! Just like you don't have to accept Medicare or Medicaid patients (or, more realistically, limit the number of those patients you take). At least an inexpensive public option will provide a bare minimum of coverage to those who can't afford private insurance, in the event of a potentially financially-ruinous catastrophic illness, you'll at least not have to worry about going into debt over your health.

No, here's the thing: I can refuse to accept the "public option" all day long, but very soon that will be the only option (unless you're the super rich or a member of congress). I'll admit that I have not read the ENTIRE 1000+ page House Bill, but I've read a number of pages that pretty much map out the plan for eliminating private insurance. There literally would be no competition. Good Lord, the bill even has excerpts on taking control of all hospitals and providing a limit on the number of beds, ORs, employees, etc. If that's not mapping out a future where government health care is the only health care, I don't know what is.

Read the bill, or at least parts of it and cite me examples of where it ensures the existence of private insurance. The white house/congress rhetoric has been "if you want to keep your insurance, you can", but where in that 1000+ page bill does it ever protect that right. It doesn't - rather, it maps out the elimination of private insurance.

#3-
Socialized medicine is not the same as single payer, though the Republicans would have you believe otherwise. By the way, the same tired arguments were made against Medicare at its inception in 1965, and in fact the private insurance industry thrived since then. The slippery-slope argument is a little tired.

The Republican thing again... People can call it whatever they want - Socialism, Marxism, Whateverism. Ultimately, it's big, big, big government take over, which happens to have such a wonderful track record (insert sarcasm here).

Yes, and look how wonderful Medicare is today (dead broke). Speaking of Medicare, there has been a lot of concern from the elderly that the proposed bills will be taking funds from Medicare to help pay for the new "public option", thus reducing their services. Any idea how they'll cut medicare to fund the public option, while still providing the same services to the elderly??? Answer: CUTTING REIMBURSEMENTS. That's the only way.
 
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How about some analysis of the bill incorporating text from the bill itself.

Granted this isnt from the whitehouse (www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck) nor is it a call to "snitch" on fellow Americans by forwarding 'fishy' emails to the Administration (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/facts-are-stubborn-things/), but at least it examines some sections of the bill in its own language:

http://www.classicalideals.com/HR3200.htm


The Health Care Bill: What HR 3200, ‘‘America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009," Says

John David Lewis

August 6, 2009


This bill is 1017 pages long. It is knee-deep in legalese and references to other federal regulations and laws. I have only touched pieces of the bill here. For instance, I have not considered the establishment of (1) "Health Choices Commissio0ner" (Section 141); (2) a "Health Insurance Exchange," (Section 201), basically a government run insurance scheme to coordinate all insurance activity; (3) a Public Health Insurance Option (Section 221); and similar provisions.



This is the evaluation of someone who is neither a physician nor a legal professional. I am citizen, concerned about this bill's effects on my freedom as an American. I would rather have used my time in other ways—but this is too important to ignore.


(All bold type within the text of the bill is added for emphasis.)


1. 1. WILL THE PLAN RATION MEDICAL CARE?



This is what the bill says, pages 284-288, SEC. 1151. REDUCING POTENTIALLY PREVENTABLE HOSPITAL READMISSIONS:



‘(ii) EXCLUSION OF CERTAIN READMISSIONS.—For purposes of clause (i), with respect to a hospital, excess readmissions shall not include readmissions for an applicable condition for which there are fewer than a minimum number (as determined by the Secretary) of discharges for such applicable condition for the applicable period and such hospital.



and, under "Definitions":



‘‘(A) APPLICABLE CONDITION.—The term ‘applicable condition' means, subject to subparagraph (B), a condition or procedure selected by the Secretary . . .


and:


‘‘(E) READMISSION.—The term ‘readmission' means, in the case of an individual who is discharged from an applicable hospital, the admission of the individual to the same or another applicable hospital within a time period specified by the Secretary from the date of such discharge.


and:


‘‘(6) LIMITATIONS ON REVIEW.—There shall be no administrative or judicial review under section 1869, section 1878, or otherwise of— . . .

‘‘(C) the measures of readmissions . . .


EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGES:

1. This section amends the Social Security Act

2. The government has the power to determine what constitutes an "applicable [medical] condition."

3. The government has the power to determine who is allowed readmission into a hospital.

4. This determination will be made by statistics: when enough people have been discharged for the same condition, an individual may be readmitted.

5. This is government rationing, pure, simple, and straight up.

6. There can be no judicial review of decisions made here. The Secretary is above the courts.

7. The plan also allows the government to prohibit hospitals from expanding without federal permission: page 317-318.



2. Will the plan punish Americans who try to opt out?



What the bill says, pages 167-168, section 401, TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE:



‘‘(a) TAX IMPOSED.—In the case of any individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of—

(1) the taxpayer's modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year, over

(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer. . . ."



EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGE:



1. This section amends the Internal Revenue Code.

2. Anyone caught without acceptable coverage and not in the government plan will pay a special tax.

3. The IRS will be a major enforcement mechanism for the plan.



3. what constitutes "acceptable" coverage?



Here is what the bill says, pages 26-30, SEC. 122, ESSENTIAL BENEFITS PACKAGE DEFINED:



(a) IN GENERAL.—In this division, the term ‘‘essential benefits package'' means health benefits coverage, consistent with standards adopted under section 124 to ensure the provision of quality health care and financial security . . .



(b) MINIMUM SERVICES TO BE COVERED.—The items and services described in this subsection are the following:

(1) Hospitalization.

(2) Outpatient hospital and outpatient clinic services . . .

(3) Professional services of physicians and other health professionals.

(4) Such services, equipment, and supplies incident to the services of a physician's or a health professional's delivery of care . . .

(5) Prescription drugs.

(6) Rehabilitative and habilitative services.

(7) Mental health and substance use disorder services.

(8) Preventive services . . .

(9) Maternity care.

(10) Well baby and well child care . . .



(c) REQUIREMENTS RELATING TO COST-SHARING AND MINIMUM ACTUARIAL VALUE . . .



(3) MINIMUM ACTUARIAL VALUE.—

(A) IN GENERAL.—The cost-sharing under the essential benefits package shall be designed to provide a level of coverage that is designed to provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to approximately 70 percent of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the reference benefits package described in subparagraph (B).



EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGES:



1. The bill defines "acceptable coverage" and leaves no room for choice in this regard.

2. By setting a minimum 70% actuarial value of benefits, the bill makes health plans in which individuals pay for routine services, but carry insurance only for catastrophic events, (such as Health Savings Accounts) illegal.





4. Will the PLAN destroy private health insurance?



Here is what it requires, for businesses with payrolls greater than $400,000 per year. (The bill uses "contribution" to refer to mandatory payments to the government plan.) Pages 149-150, SEC. 313, EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTIONS IN LIEU OF COVERAGE



(a) IN GENERAL.—A contribution is made in accordance with this section with respect to an employee if such contribution is equal to an amount equal to 8 percent of the average wages paid by the employer during the period of enrollment (determined by taking into account all employees of the employer and in such manner as the Commissioner provides, including rules providing for the appropriate aggregation of related employers). Any such contribution—



(1) shall be paid to the Health Choices Commissioner for deposit into the Health Insurance Exchange Trust Fund, and

(2) shall not be applied against the premium of the employee under the Exchange-participating health benefits plan in which the employee is enrolled.



(The bill then includes a sliding scale of payments for business with less than $400,000 in annual payroll.)



The Bill also reserves, for the government, the power to determine an acceptable benefits plan: page 24, SEC. 115. ENSURING ADEQUACY OF PROVIDER NETWORKS.



5 (a) IN GENERAL.—A qualified health benefits plan that uses a provider network for items and services shall meet such standards respecting provider networks as the Commissioner may establish to assure the adequacy of such networks in ensuring enrollee access to such items and services and transparency in the cost-sharing differentials between in-network coverage and out-of-network coverage.



EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGES:



1. The bill does not prohibit a person from buying private insurance.

2. Small businesses—with say 8-10 employees—will either have to provide insurance to federal standards, or pay an 8% payroll tax. Business costs for health care are higher than this, especially considering administrative costs. Any competitive business that tries to stay with a private plan will face a payroll disadvantage against competitors who go with the government "option."

3. The pressure for business owners to terminate the private plans will be enormous.

4. With employers ending plans, millions of Americans will lose their private coverage, and fewer companies will offer it.

5. The Commissioner (meaning, always, the bureaucrats) will determine whether a particular network of physicians, hospitals and insurance is acceptable.

6. With private insurance starved, many people enrolled in the government "option" will have no place else to go.





5. Does the plan TAX successful Americans more THAN OTHERS?



Here is what the bill says, pages 197-198, SEC. 441. SURCHARGE ON HIGH INCOME INDIVIDUALS



‘‘SEC. 59C. SURCHARGE ON HIGH INCOME INDIVIDUALS.

‘‘(a) GENERAL RULE.—In the case of a taxpayer other than a corporation, there is hereby imposed (in addition to any other tax imposed by this subtitle) a tax equal to—

‘‘(1) 1 percent of so much of the modified adjusted gross income of the taxpayer as exceeds $350,000 but does not exceed $500,000,

‘‘(2) 1.5 percent of so much of the modified adjusted gross income of the taxpayer as exceeds $500,000 but does not exceed $1,000,000, and

‘‘(3) 5.4 percent of so much of the modified adjusted gross income of the taxpayer as exceeds $1,000,000.



EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGE:



1. This bill amends the Internal Revenue Code.

2. Tax surcharges are levied on those with the highest incomes.

3. The plan manipulates the tax code to redistribute their wealth.

4. Successful business owners will bear the highest cost of this plan.



6. 6. Does THE PLAN ALLOW THE GOVERNMENT TO set FEES FOR SERVICES?



What it says, page 124, Sec. 223, PAYMENT RATES FOR ITEMS AND SERVICES:



(d) CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this subtitle shall be construed as limiting the Secretary's authority to correct for payments that are excessive or deficient, taking into account the provisions of section 221(a) and the amounts paid for similar health care providers and services under other Exchange-participating health benefits plans.



(e) CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this subtitle shall be construed as affecting the authority of the Secretary to establish payment rates, including payments to provide for the more efficient delivery of services, such as the initiatives provided for under section 224.



EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGES:



The government's authority to set payments is basically unlimited.
The official will decide what constitutes "excessive," "deficient," and "efficient" payments and services.




7. Will THE PLAN increase the power of government officials to SCRUTINIZE our private affairs?



What it says, pages 195-196, SEC. 431. DISCLOSURES TO CARRY OUT HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE SUBSIDIES.



‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—The Secretary, upon written request from the Health Choices Commissioner or the head of a State-based health insurance exchange approved for operation under section 208 of the America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009, shall disclose to officers and employees of the Health Choices Administration or such State-based health insurance exchange, as the case may be, return information of any taxpayer whose income is relevant in determining any affordability credit described in subtitle C of title II of the America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009. Such return information shall be limited to—

‘‘(i) taxpayer identity information with respect to such taxpayer,

‘‘(ii) the filing status of such taxpayer,

‘‘(iii) the modified adjusted gross income of such taxpayer (as defined in section 59B(e)(5)),

‘‘(iv) the number of dependents of the taxpayer,

‘‘(v) such other information as is prescribed by the Secretary by regulation as might indicate whether the taxpayer is eligible for such affordability credits (and the amount thereof), and

‘‘(vi) the taxable year with respect to which the preceding information relates or, if applicable, the fact that such information is not available.



And, page 145, section 312, EMPLOYER RESPONSIBILITY TO CONTRIBUTE TOWARDS EMPLOYEE AND DEPENDENT COVERAGE:



(3) PROVISION OF INFORMATION.—The employer provides the Health Choices Commissioner, the Secretary of Labor, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, and the Secretary of the Treasury, as applicable, with such information as the Commissioner may require to ascertain compliance with the requirements of this section.



EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGE:



1. This section amends the Internal Revenue Code

2. The bill opens up income tax return information to federal officials.

3. Any stated "limits" to such information are circumvented by item (v), which allows federal officials to decide what information is needed.

4. Employers are required to report whatever information the government says it needs to enforce the plan.





8. 8. Does the plan automatically enroll Americans in the GOVERNMENT plan?



What it says, page 102, Section 205, Outreach and enrollment of Exchange-eligible individuals and employers in Exchange-participating health benefits plan:



(3) AUTOMATIC ENROLLMENT OF MEDICAID ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUALS INTO MEDICAID.—The Commissioner shall provide for a process under which an individual who is described in section 202(d)(3) and has not elected to enroll in an Exchange-participating health benefits plan is automatically enrolled under Medicaid.



And, page 145, section 312:



(4) AUTOENROLLMENT OF EMPLOYEES.—The employer provides for autoenrollment of the employee in accordance with subsection (c).



EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGES:



1. Do nothing and you are in.

2. Employers are responsible for automatically enrolling people who still work.





9. 9. Does THE PLAN exempt federal OFFICIALS from COURT REVIEW?



What it says, page 124, Section 223, PAYMENT RATES FOR ITEMS AND SERVICES:



(f) LIMITATIONS ON REVIEW.—There shall be no administrative or judicial review of a payment rate or methodology established under this section or under section 224.



And, page 256, SEC. 1123. PAYMENTS FOR EFFICIENT AREAS.



‘‘(C) LIMITATION ON REVIEW.—There shall be no administrative or judicial review under section 1869, 1878, or otherwise, respecting—

‘‘(i) the identification of a county or other area under subparagraph (A); or

‘‘(ii) the assignment of a postal ZIP Code to a county or other area under subparagraph (B).



EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGES:



1. Sec. 1123 amends the Social Security Act, to allow the Secretary to identify areas of the country that underutilize the government's plan "based on per capita spending."

2. Parts of the plan are set above the review of the courts.
 
#1-
Malpractice reform isn't in the cards right now. It sucks for us, but it's reality. I'd like to point out to you that in the 8 years of Republican rule, how much tort reform happened? Exactly. Never mind that malpractice caps are a red herring, and should be decided on the state level and not the national level..
Why? Just because malpractice reform isn't "on the table right now" doesn't mean it couldn't be. Democrats chose not address the issue for the purpose of pursuing their long-standing desire to implement government run healthcare. The republicans have no excuse for not addressing the issue last time around, other than the whole war 'distraction'...

The fact remains that it could have been on the table had Democrats wanted it to be...but this is their opportunity to enact legislation that is decades in the making.

#2-
The plan likely won't reimburse more than private insurance. Here's the thing:
if you feel that the public plan isn't reimbursing adequately, you don't have to accept it! Just like you don't have to accept Medicare or Medicaid patients (or, more realistically, limit the number of those patients you take). At least an inexpensive public option will provide a bare minimum of coverage to those who can't afford private insurance, in the event of a potentially financially-ruinous catastrophic illness, you'll at least not have to worry about going into debt over your health.
But your assumption is based on maintenance of the current levels of private insurance pay. If a considerable portion of the workforce, through their employer, switches to the public option the ranks of private pay will dwindle. That, coupled with the reality that peole CAN keep their plan, BUT (and this is a big but), if they leave that plan, they are prevented from joining new plans unless the coverage is approved through the govt's mandated premium coverage (yet to be defined)

It is no less myopic than it is ignorant to assume a "cheap" public plan will alleviate the swelling ranks of uninsured, which when further analyzed, breaks down to no greater than 12,000 when accounting for a.) those that can afford plans but wish not to pay, b.) those in between jobs c.) those that qualify for existing programs but have not the motivation, need or desire to do so, and d.) illegal immiragrants.

A cursory exam of the system in Massachusetts will show the unfortunate reality of assuming "coverage for all" equates cheaper, more efficient healthcare.

##3-
Socialized medicine is not the same as single payer, though the Republicans would have you believe otherwise. ...

Seriously? So a giant $1 trillion Medicare-type program that purports social equality via mandated insurance coverage through the government at the risk of being penalized 2.5% of your income is not "socialized medicine"?

So you can keep the plan you currently have...for how long? How long before your premium is jacked up to make up for the millions (as projected by the CBO) that will flee private insurance for a "public plan" that is "cheaper"? That's as naive as it is preposterous.

"socialized medicine" does not mean endorsement of the Social Democratic Party platform or ownership of a first edition Communist Manifesto. But it does emobdy the principle that the government is the provider of goods and the arbiter of equal outcomes, and consequently, adheres to notion of 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.' The fact this kindred phenomenon is uncomfortable for progressives to swallow stilll doesn't detract from the reality that such a similarity exists.

once the door for a government funded PORTION of healthcare is opened, there is only one direction to take...the convenient technicality that we're not labeling the program "single payer" is a short-sighted bait-n-switch.


Some good articles:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YmYwY2E1YmQwN2YwZWZlMTg0NDc5YjRkNjA5MWY2Y2U=

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/08/12/town_halls/

my favorite: http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=ZTAzM2FlN2JkZjA4MWNmM2UxNmRiOTljN2Q2ZWEzMmU=
 
Really...how many docs do you know that tell their patients..."hey i dont accept your insurance, so if you want my help then pay up or get out of my office"? Docs don't have the choice you mention.

Physicians are not leagally required to accept either Medicare or Medicaid, and they won't be forced to accept the public plan either as it stands. I don't know how much clearer this can be stated, and don't know why you seem to think otherwise.
 
I think providing people with actual evidence of what Obama is saying speaks volumes. Your defense of Obama's comments was that he simply was trying to make the point that we should infuse more money into primary care (while apparently taking some of it from specialty care), but you and Obama still have not provided me with evidence as to how he's going to do that. I'm all for increasing reimbursement for primary care. Unfortunately, that's just not going to happen under this so-called reform. What will happen is reduced reimbursement for all.

Please provide a reference for your assertion.

I have never been or will ever be a Republican - why was that even brought up. But since you did bring it up, at least Bush tried for malpractice reform.

I never called you a Republican 😕. I just pointed out that in the most pro-business administration of the last 50 years of Bush-Cheney, NO national tort reform was passed. And "trying" doesn't count.


No, here's the thing: I can refuse to accept the "public option" all day long, but very soon that will be the only option (unless you're the super rich or a member of congress). I'll admit that I have not read the ENTIRE 1000+ page House Bill, but I've read a number of pages that pretty much map out the plan for eliminating private insurance. There literally would be no competition. Good Lord, the bill even has excerpts on taking control of all hospitals and providing a limit on the number of beds, ORs, employees, etc. If that's not mapping out a future where government health care is the only health care, I don't know what is.

See, that's called "slippery slope" and as I mentioned that tired argument has been around since Medicare was first proposed and isn't any more valid now than it was then. In case you haven't been paying attention, insurance companies have been extremely profitable ventures despite government intervention into healthcare. Yet now all of a sudden when the government tries to close the gap on the uninsured it's going to mean the end of private insurance. It may mean the end of their current business model, sure, but I think some regard that as a good thing.

Read the bill, or at least parts of it and cite me examples of where it ensures the existence of private insurance. The white house/congress rhetoric has been "if you want to keep your insurance, you can", but where in that 1000+ page bill does it ever protect that right. It doesn't - rather, it maps out the elimination of private insurance.

It's funny that you don't want to be labeled a Republican but you're using what seems to be a textbook Republican argument technique:
1. Come up with nightmare scenario with little to no proof, i.e. slippery slope argument.
2. Make other people disprove it for you.

So no, I'm not going to prove your theory is correct for you. If you want to prove that you're correct, you can do your own homework. By the way, Homeboy's cutting and pasting that of that monstrosity doesn't count.

The Republican thing again... People can call it whatever they want - Socialism, Marxism, Whateverism. Ultimately, it's big, big, big government take over, which happens to have such a wonderful track record (insert sarcasm here).

Yes, as evidenced by the smooth running of the post office, the NYS DMV, and the existence of Amtrak, the government can't do anything right. Also, private colleges don't exist any more because the state universities drove schools like Harvard and Yale and Princeton into bankruptcy because they couldn't compete with a low-cost government subsidized alternative. (insert sarcasm here). By the way, where are you getting the loans for medical school again?

Yes, and look how wonderful Medicare is today (dead broke). Speaking of Medicare, there has been a lot of concern from the elderly that the proposed bills will be taking funds from Medicare to help pay for the new "public option", thus reducing their services. Any idea how they'll cut medicare to fund the public option, while still providing the same services to the elderly??? Answer: CUTTING REIMBURSEMENTS. That's the only way.

Again, the unsupported "cutting reimbursement" statement.

The public option will be funded by either:
1. taxing the wealthy
2. taxing health care benefits

This has been publically stated already by the Obama administration. Your nightmare scenario, at present, is incorrect.
 
Physicians are not leagally required to accept either Medicare or Medicaid, and they won't be forced to accept the public plan either as it stands. I don't know how much clearer this can be stated, and don't know why you seem to think otherwise.

Most important words in your statement. If for whatever reason, this ends up as big a cluster**** as most would anticipate, then what happens if (and I understand that's an if) physicians abandon it in droves? Do you really think Barry is gonna let his healthcare plan, which the success of his presidency pretty much hangs on at this point, fail because physicians won't participate? How is that gonna look to the rest of the plebs. "Well Mrs. Jones, you can join our great public plan for much cheaper, but all the greedy physicians don't participate so here is Nurse Adams to take care of that hip replacement for ya." Can't have that... C'mon now, all it will take is one signature by Barry and we can put up new border signs that say "Welcome to Canada South."
 
Patient comes into ER. Doctors treat patient. Patient has public plan. How does hospital/doctors collect payment if they do not accept the public plan??

Yes from a legal standpoint doctors do not have to accept any plan BUT doctors are legally required to treat all emergent cases that walk through their door regardless if they accept the patients insurance or not.


Sigh. Really, this is basic knowledge about our medical system that you don't seem to grasp.

A physician who works in an ER is an employee of the hospital. Hospitals generally can bill most private insurances for services rendered, as well as Medicare and Medicaid. IIRC hospitals are also required by law to treat a certain number of Medicare/caid patients per year in NY. By law (EMTALA), they also have to treat all regardless of ability to pay, i.e. the uninsured. It makes sense, from the point of view of the hospital, to accept the "government plans" as opposed to not getting paid at all.

A private physician in his/her office is not obliged to accept Medicare/Medicaid. If an uninsured patient walks through the door of the office, the patient is most certainly NOT allowed to get free non-emergency care. The physician at most is required to refer the patient to a clinic or an ER that will render treatment. If they require emergency care, the obligation of the physician is to treat the emergency if possible then send the patient to the ER via EMS.

Also think what would happen if the majority of patients have the public plan. You will be forced to accept the plan in order to make a living.

But a majority of patients will not have the public plan as it stands. Could private insurance be forced out of business? This is far from being a certainty, despite the loud but empty rhetoric from opponents of reform (especially the insurance company lobbyists). As I mentioned earlier, public competition in many industries has not forced private enterprise out of the picture..
 
:scared:So I guess the problem still remains, how do we fix health care? What is pathetic is that you have a thread dedicated to the fact that our President is evil by actually having a plan for health care reform. The funny thing is that almost everyone in this conversation despises Obama and his plan, but also cannot come up with something better. Oh, and don't talk about keeping the health care system that we have right now which is ranked I think around 36th in the world by WHO and will eventually go bankrupt by around 2016 according to the stats. A single-payer system is not socialized medicine, you can even find that data on google, it takes about 10 seconds!👍
 
But a majority of patients will not have the public plan as it stands. Could private insurance be forced out of business? This is far from being a certainty, despite the loud but empty rhetoric from opponents of reform
Why is the extrapolation of economic certainty, supported by CBO projections, viewed as 'empty rhetoric'? How is it any less rhetorical to claim the government has the capacity, let alone authority, to do a better job when in every other area of government-run industry, the costs are astronomically underestimated? Moreover, why is it assumed that opponents of government funded medical care are consequently "opponents of reform"?

As I mentioned earlier, public competition in many industries has not forced private enterprise out of the picture..

"Barry: “If you think about it, UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. It’s the Post Office that’s always having problems.”

Oops. Freudian slip? Subliminally speaking, was the president implying that private health insurers are doing just fine? ...

Government insurance is what’s in trouble today. Medicare is in the hole by about $40 trillion on a discounted present-value basis over the next 40 or 50 years. And if we’re going to equate government care to government mail...the U.S. Postal Service is going bankrupt with a $7 billion net loss this year. With 633,000 career employees, the Post Office won’t be able to make $5.4 billion in retiree health-benefit payments. How many of these federal employees will populate the new government-backed insurance plan if it passes?" --Larry Kudlow
 
Listen to yourself, you sit and harp on insurance companies and their high rates, but then in a complete 180 degree turn call for the Presidents head because he wants people that cannot afford their absurd rates to have another option.
Doesn't Obama know that the very same person that watches out for the diabetic patients foot is the same person that does the amputation...what a bad example.

Now I understand where he is getting at with rewarding prevention...but I can't get past the fact that these politicians think they know how to solve healthcare issues. How do their law degrees and history/political science majors qualify them in any way to pass laws dealing with healthcare?

Something needs to be done about healthcare but he is attacking the wrong people. Every year reimbursement goes down while insurance rates go up. That would mean that insurance companies are making more and more money. They are the problem. Attack them!
 
Maybe it is because they whine and cry about what is going on, but never offer any solutions. If you are not an opponent to reform, demonstrate that to me by offering a better way than what we have now, and what Mr. Obama has purposed.
Why is the extrapolation of economic certainty, supported by CBO projections, viewed as 'empty rhetoric'? How is it any less rhetorical to claim the government has the capacity, let alone authority, to do a better job when in every other area of government-run industry, the costs are astronomically underestimated? Moreover, why is it assumed that opponents of government funded medical care are consequently "opponents of reform"?



"Barry: “If you think about it, UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. It’s the Post Office that’s always having problems.”

Oops. Freudian slip? Subliminally speaking, was the president implying that private health insurers are doing just fine? ...

Government insurance is what’s in trouble today. Medicare is in the hole by about $40 trillion on a discounted present-value basis over the next 40 or 50 years. And if we’re going to equate government care to government mail...the U.S. Postal Service is going bankrupt with a $7 billion net loss this year. With 633,000 career employees, the Post Office won’t be able to make $5.4 billion in retiree health-benefit payments. How many of these federal employees will populate the new government-backed insurance plan if it passes?" --Larry Kudlow
 
if we're going to equate government care to government mail...the U.S. Postal Service is going bankrupt with a $7 billion net loss this year. With 633,000 career employees, the Post Office won't be able to make $5.4 billion in retiree health-benefit payments. How many of these federal employees will populate the new government-backed insurance plan if it passes?" --Larry Kudlow

Are you intentionally leaving out the fact that the US economy in a RECESSION right now, which has hit many businesses, including the Post Office, hard? Or was it just an oversight on your part?

Interesting that you only chose to look at the Post Office to prove your point without addressing the other gov't-sponsored I listed. Again, intentional? By the way, the Post Office hasn't actually received a government handout since the 1980's.
 
So I guess the problem still remains, how do we fix health care? What is pathetic is that you have a thread dedicated to the fact that our President is evil by actually having a plan for health care reform. The funny thing is that almost everyone in this conversation despises Obama and his plan, but also cannot come up with something better. Oh, and don't talk about keeping the health care system that we have right now which is ranked I think around 36th in the world by WHO and will eventually go bankrupt by around 2016 according to the stats. A single-payer system is not socialized medicine, you can even find that data on google, it takes about 10 seconds!👍

The WHO rankings are an absolute joke. No one ever looks at how they are created. Let me break it down for you. The rankings are made from 5 factors weighted as below:
1. Health Level: 25 percent

2. Health Distribution: 25 percent

3. Responsiveness: 12.5 percent

4. Responsiveness Distribution: 12.5 percent

5. Financial Fairness: 25 percent

"Health level" is a measure of a countries "disability adjusted life expectancy" which on the surface makes sense as a measure of the health of a country. Life expectancy is related to many factors not related to health care. In fact, if you remove the homicide rate and accidental death rate from MVA's from this statistic, citizens of the US have a longer life expectancy than any other country on earth. So basically take out the things not tied to health care and our life expectancy actually is the best. Hmmm... wonder why the WHO didn't do that...

"Financial fairness"- this one is a joke and is essentially a political tool pushing more socialized systems. It measures the % of income spent on health care which basically means it places a more value on systems that force the wealthy to pay for the country's health care. This factor doesnt measure the quality of health care but rather how the costs are "equaled" out. So a country in which all health care is paid for by the gov't via a progressive tax system but delivers terrible care, they would score perfectly in this ranking. Well, seems like this is not a measure of a health care system at all but rather the intentions of the WHO to push their political agenda. This allows socialized systems to seem better without them having to be better.

"Health Distribution and Responsiveness Distribution" measure inequality in the other factors. In other words, another thing that does not actually measure the quality of health care delivery. It is possible, for example, to have great inequality in a health care system where the majority of the population gets "excellent" health care, but a minority only gets "good" health care. This system would rank more poorly on these measures than another country that had "equal", but terrible, health care throughout the system.

So you see the WHO rankings are BS. They artifically prop up socialized systems where things are "equal" and the cost is placed on the wealthy. Notice that 50% of the rankings are based on how socialist a system is. So if obama's plan goes through, without anyone even getting care through the obama plan, our rankings in the WHO rankings would immediately skyrocket without our healthcare actually changing.
 
To Peptoboy AND wannabe...

Maybe it is because they whine and cry about what is going on, but never offer any solutions. If you are not an opponent to reform, demonstrate that to me by offering a better way than what we have now, and what Mr. Obama has purposed.

Cry and whine about what is going on?

Such juvenile defense.

Have YOU offered any real solutions, other than simply jumping on the Administration's bandwagon? Why is the burden of evidence on ME???

Everyone is cognizant that healtcare reform is needed, but why does "reform" have to equate "government control"? Why is US wanting to put the brakes on a $1 trillion PLUS piece of legislation (that has been RUSHED through Congress in a matter of weeks) for further public discourse before we head down a road of no return "crying and whining"? If anyone is whining it is YOU, in that people are opposing The Chosen One's perfect plan for America.

Since YOUR party is the one pushing the legislation, YOUR party is the one that must defend its actions. The burden of proof is on YOU, bub...not me...and the fact I haven't writtun up 1018 pages of political mumbojumbo doesn't mean there aren't free market solutions to free market problems.

(written by the CEO of Whole Foods, not a healthcare policy wonk)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html

But rather than attempt to convey the idea I have some grand plan on par with Obama's in terms of cost, scope and permanence, let's address some key questsions that need to be debated BEFORE we rush into trillions of dollars of debt for the sake of "crisis" spending:

Is it in our interest as a nation to have >99% of the populace covered by health insurance whether public or private?
--I think an inherent component of that question is what specifically would be covered by "insurance," in the sense that insurance in every over known form is meant to be protection from the unforeseen tragedies of life (auto, life, home, etc...). Annual exams, occasional blood tests, and routine prescriptions do not fall under this category, and if we could ever get away from the notion that "health insurance" should cover every single, solitary aspect of our health (and the government should provide for it), this alone would solve a great number of problems. But in order to do that, people have to be willing to pay out of pocket for services that are regularly required but do not have tangible results (like cell phones, cable, groceries, etc...).

eg. Are car insurance companies expected to pay for oil changes, gasoline and tire rotations?

Additionally, what guarantee do we have that health "insurance" equates to actual health "care"? Massachusetts is a prime example of the reality of 'insurance for everyone'...a cursory examination of the myriad of problems the state has encountered should be enlightening to anyone favoring a government assumption of healthcare responsibilities.

Moreover, what is in our 'best interest' does not necessarily equate what is feasible or Constitutionally just. The ~50 million number that routinely gets tossed around regarding the number of uninsured includes several million that a.) gross over $50k after taxes, so potentially could afford some form of insurance but choose to allocare resources elsewhere, b.) those in between jobs and temporarily uninsured, c.) those eligible for Medicare / Medicaid but for whatever reason, genuine or not, don't seek it, and d.) illegal immigrants...this brings the 50 million number down to less than 12 million who genuinely can't afford and need insurance.

Is the entire system worth overhauling at the pretense of obtaining some arbitrary number of "insured" beyond which is socially just? Is it not contradictory to insinuate the entire system is screwed up & in need of desparate, imediate attention, while simultaneously suggesting that those who are happy can keep their current plan? Rather than implementing reform on the existing system, we've assumed the position that "if it's broken, don't fix it, throw it out and buy another one."


The current status-quo has/is/will fail(ed)(ing)?"
--In the sense that it is financially unsustainable, yes, but it is no less financially unsustainable than the gargantuan plan for the government to assume the role. Opposition to the "public option" should not be automatically interpreted as complacencey of the status quo or some sort of endorsement of the pharm and insurance companies; rather, that there are free market solutions to a free market problem, and granted they are arguably more time consuming due to their multifactorial nature, their effectiveness should not be dismissed because they are more complicated than throwing up our hands and saying, "ok, let's just let the government do it."

Is motivation behind the currently debated legislation in the best interest of the American people?
--Are we presuming the public option push is justifiable because it has the "best interest" of the American people at heart? Versus...what the American people are verbally expressing? Assuming it is the role of government to play Daddy and take control of issues that are "too complex" for the "average American" to understand is quite a large step. Motivation & good intentions don't pan out in the long run; they just sound good on paper, and the assumption that the government can cater to our "best interest" to an extent & capacity unreachable in the free market is a fallacy of the highest magnitude.

Do we have any moral obligation to provide care?
--If we're asking do we have a "right" to healthcare, my answer is no in the legal sense. Do we have a moral obligation to provide people with the means for basic survival? Sure...everyone is entitled to food, water, shelter...IN THE SENSE that depriving such needs is immoral. But it is not the implicit design of the government to put the spoon in the hand of every citizen; rather it is to provide citizens the environment in which they can perform such acts for themselves, with the understanding that those who truly cannot perform those functions be given the benefit of the doubt and assistance in such efforts...which we already have in the form of numerous state and federal healthcare programs...namely, medicaid and Medicare...two programs with enormous financial problems, that ironically are the model for the public option (particularly, in terms of reimbursements). Extending this service to the entire population as a means to fulfil some abstract notion of egalitarian justice is no less plausible than it is Constitutionally justifiable.

"Does a public option necessarily mean a collapse of private care? What are the other options on the table? Is there any other option with the political will power behind it to see it through?
--Norman Thomas, the famous American socialist, once said: "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." The inconvenient similarity between the principles that guide overtly-labeled socialists and those that wear the "progressive" or "liberal" bumper sticker does not carry with it an explicit insinuation that progressives should aptly be labeled "socialists," (more appropriately, they are de facto, happy, smiley-face socialists 🙂 ) but nor is the association any less genuine simply because "this is America," your intentions are good, and you call it "progressive" or "liberal" rather than "social."
 
Last edited:
Instatewaiter;8539110 “Health level” is a measure of a countries “disability adjusted life expectancy” which on the surface makes sense as a measure of the health of a country. Life expectancy is related to many factors not related to health care. In fact said:
Financial fairness[/B]”- this one is a joke and is essentially a political tool pushing more socialized systems. It measures the % of income spent on health care which basically means it places a more value on systems that force the wealthy to pay for the country's health care. This factor doesnt measure the quality of health care but rather how the costs are "equaled" out. So a country in which all health care is paid for by the gov't via a progressive tax system but delivers terrible care, they would score perfectly in this ranking. Well, seems like this is not a measure of a health care system at all but rather the intentions of the WHO to push their political agenda. This allows socialized systems to seem better without them having to be better.

“Health Distribution and Responsiveness Distribution” measure inequality in the other factors. In other words, another thing that does not actually measure the quality of health care delivery. It is possible, for example, to have great inequality in a health care system where the majority of the population gets “excellent” health care, but a minority only gets “good” health care. This system would rank more poorly on these measures than another country that had “equal”, but terrible, health care throughout the system.

So you see the WHO rankings are BS. They artifically prop up socialized systems where things are "equal" and the cost is placed on the wealthy. Notice that 50% of the rankings are based on how socialist a system is. So if obama's plan goes through, without anyone even getting care through the obama plan, our rankings in the WHO rankings would immediately skyrocket without our healthcare actually changing.

Absolutely FANTASTIC point. Well done!
 
To Peptoboy AND wannabe...



Cry and whine about what is going on?

Such juvenile defense.

Have YOU offered any real solutions, other than simply jumping on the Administration's bandwagon? Why is the burden of evidence on ME???

Everyone is cognizant that healtcare reform is needed, but why does "reform" have to equate "government control"? Why is US wanting to put the brakes on a $1 trillion PLUS piece of legislation, that has been RUSHED through Congress in a matter of weeks, for further public discourse before we head down a road of no return is not "crying and whining." If anyone is whining it is YOU, in that people are opposing The Chosen One's perfect plan for America.

Since YOUR party is the one pushing the legislation, YOUR party is the one that must defend its actions. The burden of proof is on YOU, bub...not me...and the fact I haven't writtun up 1018 pages of political mumbojumbo doesn't mean there aren't free market solutions to free market problems.

(written by the CEO of Whole Foods, not a healthcare policy wonk)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html

But rather than attempt to convey the idea I have some grand plan on par with Obama's in terms of cost, scope and permanence, let's address some key questsions that need to be debated BEFORE we rush into trillions of dollars of debt for the sake of "crisis" spending:

Is it in our interest as a nation to have >99% of the populace covered by health insurance whether public or private?
--I think an inherent component of that question is what specifically would be covered by "insurance," in the sense that insurance in every over known form is meant to be protection from the unforeseen tragedies of life (auto, life, home, etc...). Annual exams, occasional blood tests, and routine prescriptions do not fall under this category, and if we could ever get away from the notion that "health insurance" should cover every single, solitary aspect of our health (and the government should provide for it), this alone would solve a great number of problems. But in order to do that, people have to be willing to pay out of pocket for services that are regularly required but do not have tangible results (like cell phones, cable, groceries, etc...).

eg. Are car insurance companies expected to pay for oil changes, gasoline and tire rotations?

Additionally, what guarantee do we have that health "insurance" equates to actual health "care"? Massachusetts is a prime example of the reality of 'insurance for everyone'...a cursory examination of the myriad of problems the state has encountered should be enlightening to anyone favoring a government assumption of healthcare responsibilities.

Moreover, what is in our 'best interest' does not necessarily equate what is feasible or Constitutionally just. The ~50 million number that routinely gets tossed around regarding the number of uninsured includes several million that a.) gross over $50k after taxes, so potentially could afford some form of insurance but choose to allocare resources elsewhere, b.) those in between jobs and temporarily uninsured, c.) those eligible for Medicare / Medicaid but for whatever reason, genuine or not, don't seek it, and d.) illegal immigrants...this brings the 50 million number down to less than 12 million who genuinely can't afford and need insurance.

Is the entire system worth overhauling at the pretense of obtaining some arbitrary number of "insured" beyond which is socially just? Is it not contradictory to insinuate the entire system is screwed up & in need of desparate, imediate attention, while simultaneously suggesting that those who are happy can keep their current plan? Rather than implementing reform on the existing system, we've assumed the position that "if it's broken, don't fix it, throw it out and buy another one."


The current status-quo has/is/will fail(ed)(ing)?"
--In the sense that it is monetarily unsustainable, yes, but it is no less monetarily sustainable than the gargantuan plan for the government to assume the role. Opposition to the "public option" should not be automatically interpreted as complacencey of the status quo or some sort of endorsement of the pharm and insurance companies; rather, that there are free market solutions to a free market problem, and granted they are arguably more time consuming due to their multifactorial nature, their effectiveness should not be dismissed because they are more complicated than throwing up our hands and saying, "ok, let's just let the government do it."

Is motivation behind the currently debated legislation in the best interest of the American people?
--Are we presuming the public option push is justifiable because it has the "best interest" of the American people at heart? Versus...what the American people are verbally expressing? Assuming it is the role of government to play Daddy and take control of issues that are "too complex" for the "average American" to understand is quite a large step. Motivation & good intentions don't pan out in the long run; they just sound good on paper, and the assumption that the government can cater to our "best interest" to an extent & capacity unreachable in the free market is a fallacy of the highest magnitude.

Do we have any moral obligation to provide care?
--If we're asking do we have a "right" to healthcare, my answer is no in the legal sense. Do we have a moral obligation to provide people with the means for basic survival? Sure...everyone is entitled to food, water, shelter...IN THE SENSE that depriving such needs is immoral. But it is not the implicit design of the government to put the spoon in the hand of every citizen; rather it is to provide citizens the environment in which they can perform such acts for themselves, with the understanding that those who truly cannot perform those functions be given the benefit of the doubt and assistance in such efforts...which we already have in the form of numerous state and federal healthcare programs...namely, medicaid and Medicare...two programs with enormous financial problems, that ironically are the model for the public option (particularly, in terms of reimbursements). Extending this service to the entire population as a means to fulfil some abstract notion of egalitarian justice is no less plausible than it is Constitutionally justifiable.

"Does a public option necessarily mean a collapse of private care? What are the other options on the table? Is there any other option with the political will power behind it to see it through?
--Norman Thomas, the famous American socialist, once said: "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." The inconvenient similarity between the principles that guide overtly-labeled socialism and those that carry the "progressive" or "liberal" bumper sticker is not an explicit insinuation that progressives should be aptly labeled "socialists," (more appropriately, they are de facto, happy, smiley-face socialists 🙂 ) but nor is the association any less genuine simply because "this is America," your intentions are good, and you call it "progressive" or "liberal" rather than "social."

Thank you for that. You eloquently stated my sentiments to a tee.
 
I have been reading the posts of those so very concerned about health care reform and the so called "Obamacare" that may be implemented to try and solve this self drawn crisis. It sounds to me like their is an overwhelmingly large amount of criticism and blame going on without much evidence that it will fail (other than a few anecdotal analogies and the universe collapsing in on itself if the bill is passed) So I wanted to bring up some points that may be frivolous, but may also have some substance to them.

First, I wanted to ask the question of who may be to blame in this situation?

  • Is it us, the American citizen, who has diverted the responsibility of maintaining even average health in the our past, to what is now the most obese nation in the world? Yes it is.
  • Is it the insurance industry, who has preyed upon our hard earned cash, only to negate in the end the privilege/benefit of health care? Yes, of course it is.
  • Is it the governments fault for not stepping in earlier to regulate the manipulation of patients and their purchased coverage and continued rise in health care costs? Some would argue yes.
  • Is there really a way in which our health care system can be changed without government sanctions and regulations? Probably not.
  • Is there cost effectiveness in leaving the 47 million or whatever the number may be uninsured? Are we better off leaving the ED's as the last minute primary care setting? Of course not.
  • Does the free market hold the blame, in which it doesn't take into account the fact that many lives are lost due to inadequate health care every year?
It is of my opinion that the only way out of this black whole of a health care system we have fallen in, is by intervention, just like the mode of medicine that we practice today. We could equate the situation to what we are now seeing in our country everyday, the epidemics: Heart disease, Obesity, and Type II diabetes to our current state. We are irresponsible as a people in general, without pointing my finger at any single person or entity. We have allowed ourselves to become proud, lazy and prone to push the blame on anyone that comes along. Nothing was done to prevent such a catastrophe as the meltdown of our health care system and now that someone has the courage to pull us out of the sinking swamp, we yell "screw you" as a nation. We elected President Obama knowing of all his intentions and aspirations. I agree that we are a democracy that should be governed by the people for the people, but when the people lose sight of how to govern themselves, there is need of retrogression. A new foundation of oversight is needed. It is apparent that we cannot possibly solve this problem alone because we are where we are today, and neither can the fading health care system handle what we currently entertain. What other option do we have other than government? I dislike as much as the next guy but I feel it is all that remains.

Just some thoughts I wanted to express, you can now take me to town. 😎
 
Another point that is often assumed but rarely examined: preventative care...

"If you prevent somebody from getting a heart attack, aren't you necessarily saving money? The fallacy here is confusing the individual with society. For the individual, catching something early generally reduces later spending for that condition. But ... we don't know in advance which patients are going to develop costly illnesses. To avert one case, "it is usually necessary to provide preventive care to many patients, most of whom would not have suffered that illness anyway." And this costs society money that would not have been spent otherwise.

Think of it this way. Assume that a screening test for disease X costs $500 and finding it early averts $10,000 of costly treatment at a later stage. Are you saving money? Well, if one in ten of those who are screened tests positive, society is saving $5,000. But if only one in 100 would get that disease, society is shelling out $40,000 more than it would without the preventive care.

That's a hypothetical case. What's the real-life actuality in the United States today? A study in the journal Circulation found that for cardiovascular diseases and diabetes, if all the recommended prevention activities were applied with 100 percent success, the prevention would cost almost ten times as much as the savings, increasing the country's total medical bill by 162 percent. [CBO director Doug ]Elmendorf additionally cites a definitive assessment in the New England Journal of Medicine that reviewed hundreds of studies on preventive care and found that more than 80 percent of preventive measures added to medical costs.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't be preventing illness. Of course we should. But in medicine, as in life, there is no free lunch. The idea that prevention is somehow intrinsically economically different from treatment — that treatment increases costs and prevention lowers them — is simply nonsense."
--Charles Krauthammer, MD
 
I have been reading the posts of those so very concerned about health care reform and the so called "Obamacare" that may be implemented to try and solve this self drawn crisis. It sounds to me like their is an overwhelmingly large amount of criticism and blame going on without much evidence that it will fail (other than a few anecdotal analogies and the universe collapsing in on itself if the bill is passed) So I wanted to bring up some points that may be frivolous, but may also have some substance to them.

First, I wanted to ask the question of who may be to blame in this situation?

  • Is it us, the American citizen, who has diverted the responsibility of maintaining even average health in the our past, to what is now the most obese nation in the world? Yes it is.
  • Is it the insurance industry, who has preyed upon our hard earned cash, only to negate in the end the privilege/benefit of health care? Yes, of course it is.
  • Is it the governments fault for not stepping in earlier to regulate the manipulation of patients and their purchased coverage and continued rise in health care costs? Some would argue yes.
  • Is there really a way in which our health care system can be changed without government sanctions and regulations? Probably not.
  • Is there cost effectiveness in leaving the 47 million or whatever the number may be uninsured? Are we better off leaving the ED's as the last minute primary care setting? Of course not.
  • Does the free market hold the blame, in which it doesn't take into account the fact that many lives are lost due to inadequate health care every year?
It is of my opinion that the only way out of this black whole of a health care system we have fallen in, is by intervention, just like the mode of medicine that we practice today. We could equate the situation to what we are now seeing in our country everyday, the epidemics: Heart disease, Obesity, and Type II diabetes to our current state. We are irresponsible as a people in general, without pointing my finger at any single person or entity. We have allowed ourselves to become proud, lazy and prone to push the blame on anyone that comes along. Nothing was done to prevent such a catastrophe as the meltdown of our health care system and now that someone has the courage to pull us out of the sinking swamp, we yell "screw you" as a nation. We elected President Obama knowing of all his intentions and aspirations. I agree that we are a democracy that should be governed by the people for the people, but when the people lose sight of how to govern themselves, there is need of retrogression. A new foundation of oversight is needed. It is apparent that we cannot possibly solve this problem alone because we are where we are today, and neither can the fading health care system handle what we currently entertain. What other option do we have other than government? I dislike as much as the next guy but I feel it is all that remains.

Just some thoughts I wanted to express, you can now take me to town. 😎

With every speech Obama proves how he has very little understanding of the healthcare system. Do we really want him at the forefront of this push for healthcare reform?

I dont know what more evidence you need. There are videos of him telling the public that physicians will do unnecessary surgeries to line their pockets (even though another doctor would have to refer them to a surgeon in the first place, which means the referring doc doesnt make money off the surgery).

Tell my why you think the public option will be so different from medicare/aid. Why do you think it will be so different from massachusetts. Both of which are unsustainable. The fact is polticians dont solve problems they just throw money at them. However when the problem is one of cutting costs, depending on obama (who lets not forget is a politicians just like any other, I mean hes already breaking campaign promises) is foolish.
 
Clearly, Obama's bill isn't about health care reformed aimed at expanding coverage for the uninsured. If it were truly about this, he could have very easily written and passed a bill in the span of a week that liberalized coverages for Medicaid and upped reimbursements a bit and that issue would be solved.

If you read it, your realize that this bill is designed to do two things: control the delivery of health care by physicians to patients.
 
WRONG. ER physicians are not always employees of hospitals. And the ER physician rarely treats every patient that walks into the ER. ER physicians are there to give a preliminary diagnosis and then send the patient to the proper specialist. Who are then stuck with the bill.

This IS simple. Why dont YOU understand. Are you really an attending? Your posts are pretty ignorant for being one.

You are hopeless.
 
Another point that is often assumed but rarely examined: preventative care...

"If you prevent somebody from getting a heart attack, aren't you necessarily saving money? The fallacy here is confusing the individual with society. For the individual, catching something early generally reduces later spending for that condition. But ... we don't know in advance which patients are going to develop costly illnesses. To avert one case, "it is usually necessary to provide preventive care to many patients, most of whom would not have suffered that illness anyway." And this costs society money that would not have been spent otherwise.

Think of it this way. Assume that a screening test for disease X costs $500 and finding it early averts $10,000 of costly treatment at a later stage. Are you saving money? Well, if one in ten of those who are screened tests positive, society is saving $5,000. But if only one in 100 would get that disease, society is shelling out $40,000 more than it would without the preventive care.

That's a hypothetical case. What's the real-life actuality in the United States today? A study in the journal Circulation found that for cardiovascular diseases and diabetes, if all the recommended prevention activities were applied with 100 percent success, the prevention would cost almost ten times as much as the savings, increasing the country's total medical bill by 162 percent. [CBO director Doug ]Elmendorf additionally cites a definitive assessment in the New England Journal of Medicine that reviewed hundreds of studies on preventive care and found that more than 80 percent of preventive measures added to medical costs.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't be preventing illness. Of course we should. But in medicine, as in life, there is no free lunch. The idea that prevention is somehow intrinsically economically different from treatment — that treatment increases costs and prevention lowers them — is simply nonsense."
--Charles Krauthammer, MD

Using your own prior analogy; isn't it easier to maintain a car than to wait until it breaks down and even more cost effective to put up a portion of money early on to invest in primary maintenance. This is from the American heart association:

According to the American Heart Association's Heart Disease and Stroke Statistics – 2009 Update:

  • 1,314,000 angioplasties were done in the United States in 2006. Of these 1,313,000 were percutaneous coronary interventions (PCIs).
  • 855,000 men and 459,000 women had angioplasties.
  • 448,000 cardiac revascularizations (also known as coronary artery bypass graft or CABG operations) were done in the United States in 2006.
  • CABG was performed on 323,000 men and 125,000 women.
By JAMA and Archives Journals 2005, "Although there are no differences in clinical outcome, the in-hospital cost of coronary artery bypass graft surgery (CABG) in the U.S. is 82.5 percent higher in the U.S. than in Canada, according to a study in the July 11 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine, one of the JAMA/Archives journals."

"In-hospital costs of treatment [for CABG] were substantially higher in the United States than in Canada [an average cost of $20,673 vs. $10,373],"

Hospital stays were even longer in Canada and still had a cost ratio of 2:1 with the United States paying almost double with an equal mortality rate in both countries.

Now of greater importance is the average cost of the aforementioned procedures above. Over the course of 5 years from 2001 to 2006, The CRT, Cardiovascular research technologies found that,"After 5 years, average total costs were $81,790 for PCI versus $100,522 for CABG patients" Now multiply those numbers by the Average # of PCI's, which equals ~107.3 billion dollars for PCI's and another ~45 billion for CABG procedures.

Now if our system ran as cost effectively as the system implemented in Canada alone then we could save roughly 75 billion on CABG's and PCI's alone and invest the rest into the research and prevention of the disease.
 
The best form of prevention is something any individual can do...not something a doctor does. Smoking alone is responsible for 50% of all cancer! Obesity leads to diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, etc., some of the biggest causes of death in this country. What are we at now, 30% of all americans are obese? These changes alone would more than decrease healthcare costs by half.

Right and I don't disagree with you, but our current system wants to ignore the problem. It is the elephant in the room and the excuse you make of it not being the responsibility of the physician is completely backwards. What then is a physician responsible for, only intervention? What long term programs have we invested in as a country that would reduce the morbidity of Obesity, heart disease, Diabetes, etc. pretty much none. It is minute to say the least.
 
Right and I don't disagree with you, but our current system wants to ignore the problem. It is the elephant in the room and the excuse you make of it not being the responsibility of the physician is completely backwards. What then is a physician responsible for, only intervention? What long term programs have we invested in as a country that would reduce the morbidity of Obesity, heart disease, Diabetes, etc. pretty much none. It is minute to say the least.
While I don't have any medical experience beyond volunteering and shadowing, I don't think physicians are ignoring the bad lifestyle problem.

Some of the physicians I've spoken to tell me that they'd keep trying to help a patient and everytime the patient came back, he/she basically didn't follow any of the advice/suggestions that the doctor gave. The bad lifestyle problem is more a cultural/societal problem and blame does not rest solely on medicine. It's like the old adage, you can take a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink (unless you hold its head underwater, I guess, but that's a different story...).

What else can a physician do to make sure their patients listen? You can't follow a patient around all day and kick him in the ass everytime he reaches for a donut/cigarette nor can you keep calling him everyday asking him whether he exercised or not. The patient has a significant role to play; just listening to a physician advising him and then, deciding not to do anything doesn't mean that the problem will go away magically.
 
While I don't have any medical experience beyond volunteering and shadowing, I don't think physicians are ignoring the bad lifestyle problem.

Some of the physicians I've spoken to tell me that they'd keep trying to help a patient and everytime the patient came back, he/she basically didn't follow any of the advice/suggestions that the doctor gave. The bad lifestyle problem is more a cultural/societal problem and blame does not rest solely on medicine. It's like the old adage, you can take a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink (unless you hold its head underwater, I guess, but that's a different story...).

What else can a physician do to make sure their patients listen? You can't follow a patient around all day and kick him in the ass everytime he reaches for a donut/cigarette nor can you keep calling him everyday asking him whether he exercised or not. The patient has a significant role to play; just listening to a physician advising him and then, deciding not to do anything doesn't mean that the problem will go away magically.

I didn't say that physicians were ignoring the problem nor did I say that they are not telling their paitents to live healthier lives. I said that our current system, being all inclusive, does not offer enough, as in a support system, to prevent the continuation of the current trends. Physicians take great care in offering state of the art solutions to intervene when neccessary, but there is no motivation that the patient can foresee other than living a healthier life. We need to evolve methods that provide greater incentive to live better. That is what I was trying to say. When we make healthier choices, we cost less.
 
I'm personally against the health care bill, but also against the status quo and the way conservatives are fighting against it. Here is a great article that summarizes a refreshing view on what I really think needs to be done to health care (in addition to Tort reform, naturally).

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...ith-the-health-insurers-8102155-53146107.html

And btw, from the video I really didn't get the impression of Doctors = Evil per Obama... that's quite a stretch!
 
I'm personally against the health care bill, but also against the status quo and the way conservatives are fighting against it. Here is a great article that summarizes a refreshing view on what I really think needs to be done to health care (in addition to Tort reform, naturally).

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...ith-the-health-insurers-8102155-53146107.html

And btw, from the video I really didn't get the impression of Doctors = Evil per Obama... that's quite a stretch!

how bout this one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhNeGYYPgIE
 
Are you intentionally leaving out the fact that the US economy in a RECESSION right now, which has hit many businesses, including the Post Office, hard? Or was it just an oversight on your part?

Interesting that you only chose to look at the Post Office to prove your point without addressing the other gov't-sponsored I listed. Again, intentional? By the way, the Post Office hasn't actually received a government handout since the 1980's.

The point is that the USPS cannot and will not fail, however bad things get, because it is a government backed entity, and the "competition" it offers to keep prices lower assumes that FedEx, UPS, etc, would jack up prices to unafforadble rates without the government USPS competition.

It's like rent control in California...rent increase is capped at a certain rate, like 8%, which is governement mandated...so every year, without fail, rent increases 8%...for fear the government is going to change it the following year. Doesn't mean it HAS to increase 8%, but by arbitrarily setting that number, the default increase is 8%.

My overall point is that government intervention distorts market prices under general assumptions that lack of government involvement means the financial raping of unassuming citizens. This is what led to the economic downturn in the housing market, primarily in areas like San Fran, LA, parts of Texas & Florida, etc... Predatory lending, yes...because FM & FM endorsed & promoted (and mandated) the notion that exponentially increasing home ownership is good for everyone, regardless of ability to pay...and becuase some people are really stupid. So if you're a bank, and you're going to be penalized for not lowering the lending requirements, coupled with the government GUARANTEE (backed by FM & FM) that your assets (good and bad) are secure, and you can bundle these bad assets and have them held by huge firms (which should have been more discriminitory with the assets they assumed, but whose fears were calmed by the assurance of the government)...why wouldn't you try to sell a $1 million house to a school-bus driver?

The argument that the USPS keeps postal rates low is an assumption that apparently trumps the knowledge that it is an EXCEEDINGLY costly endeavor & billions of dollars in debt (NOT because of the recent economic situation, but because of the enormous operating costs).

The reason the healthcare analogy is important is because we're talking TRILLIONS of dollars, not billions. Artificially lowering healthcare EXPENSES doesn't in any way equate to lower COSTS.

What, because the public option will reimburse surgeons $75 for a lap appy, versus BCBS reimbursing $300, that's going to automatically lower the OR / Physician / hospital cost of the procedure?
And since millions are predicted to leave private insurance for the public option, BCBS is going to continue to charge the same premium prices to those still wanting the private BCBS plan?

COST SHIFTING.

It's like underpants gnomes logic:
Phase 1.) Government insurance
Phase 2.) ?
Phase 3.) Cheap, effecient healthcare for all.

What's phase 2? Apparently it's political rhetoric that assumes everything good about our healthcare system is going to stay and all the bad things will miraculously vanish with government involvement.
 
I'm not knocking Obama and the Dems for finally taking steps to address our healthcare system. I'm just critical of the way they're going about it: using the current economic problems & the personal-nature of the issue to drive through legislation that, ironically, falls right in line with progressive mentality & statist dogma.

He's doing exactly what Emanuel said: not letting a good crisis go to waste.

This issue has been in the Democratic playbook for YEARS: the socialization of our healthcare system, following the general assumption that an enlightened group of government-appointed czars should dictate the nuances of our life under pretense that "they know what's best", and because they have good intentions, are completely justified.

More eloquently: "The real danger of Obama’s technocratic administration lies in its habit of tendentiously recasting serious moral and political debates as misguided arguments about plainly observable empirical facts. Such intellectual self-indulgence preemptively labels all disagreement as uninformed or nefarious and renders democratic process — and all those that demand it — tiresome and frustrating. This transforms every nuanced policy debate into a choice between the light of reason and the darkness of ignorance; this heavy-handed dogmatism inevitably creates a cultural cleavage between the chosen bearers of truth and those who stupidly refuse the gifts bestowed by progress.

Senate Finance Committee chairman Max Baucus recently remarked that Democratic health-care reform was stamped with a “sense of inevitability,” but there are still plenty of Americans with real anger about their “manufactured” consent — for these citizens, the conclusion of this political trial is not yet foregone. Whether or not Republicans can defeat Obama’s health-care reforms, they owe their constituents a genuine national debate that does justice to the public option that matters most — the one for democracy."
--Ivan Kenneally
 
I don't know if any of you watch John Stewart on the Daily Show, but this clip about Glenn Beck is a perfect example of the media plutocracy that goes on in this country. He is the embodiment of the hypocrisy that saturates our news media and causes uneducated Boob tube glued Americans to cause riots at town hall meetings. And if you want to continue to see this d-bag in action you can watch the next clip in which he so admirably demonstrates his view on race and the president. Oh Fox news, you are pathetic. Obamacare 2010!


http://www.indecisionforever.com/2009/08/14/jon-stewart-owns-glenn-beck-on-healthcare-hypocrisy/
 
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