Doctors with disabilities?

[disabled&proud]

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I am disabled, proud, involved with disability justice (that's a very specific thing, not a new buzz word, BTW). I am fully confident in my ability to become a vet, if I am given the opportunity (via admission to vet school, first round app will probably be the 2025 app cycle). But, I am very concerned that (1) a small but vocal minority of faculty in vet schools may try to impede my progress due to their ableism and (2) I will not be able to find a job afterwards, and have $150-250k in debt that I can't repay. I already have 2 graduate degrees (including a PhD), but I was just kind of doing what was expected of me and didn't enjoy the work itself. After a year of volunteering in a very vet-driven wildlife rehab (vet staff oversaw us), I got interested in maybe trying for vet med, and I've spent the last year+ since then pursuing shadowing and other opportunities, and working on prereqs, and only get more and more sure that I would like this career. However, I have met zero vets with any disability that is "visible" (mine is). I've seen articles from JAVMA about vets with some different disabilities and stuff like that, so I know ya'll are out there somewhere!

My questions are:

(1) What vet schools do ya'll know are actively supportive of vet students with disabilities? I know everywhere will have That One Cynical Jerk because that's just true everywhere. We can't escape how our society is, and everything in the media about disability is pity, cure, unrealistic "overcoming" stories, or some kind of weird "disabled people are violent" (weird because research shows no disability is correlated with violent behavior, but all people with disabilities are at higher risk of being victims of violence) myths. But, if there are people in the department who are ready to support disabled students by collaborating with us, the cynical person won't be able to block someone from making it to DVM. My in state school is UC Davis and I probably will not be interested in any private university without very proactive evidence they want to support disabled students because the laws are different (so that cynical jerk could get away with some things they couldn't at a state university, and it could be enough that I get 3 years in and then someone's convinced whoever is in charge not to let me do clinicals). In undergrad I had a group of faculty bully me out of my major (even though my GPA was well above the threshhold that they were technically allowed to do that) because they felt disabled people "couldn't survive" in their industry. I say this not because I'm looking for pity, I'm actually at this point (a decade later) really just jaded about it all. I would like some leads on which vet schools I won't have these kinds of major problems, because I don't want to give them my (loan) money, or let them distract me from what I'm there for, not because I think they'd be able to win. (I know my rights and how to get them enforced if it comes to that.)

(2) How hard is it to get a job in vet med when you're very obviously disabled? I have a long list of nightmare stories where, for example, people will hire me then give me zero hours because they see me as a liability (I'm not, it's just ableism; there are a very small handful of jobs that exist that I *would* be a liability for due to my disability, but I have never, and will never, attempt to get any of those jobs because that's not my jam). Or, people will be very excited about me on paper, then I show up for the interview and they look visibly shocked when they see I am disabled. Some people will literally stare with very wide eyes at my assistive device, like it's a cobra about to strike them. Obviously they do not hire me. Or most recently someone invited me to interview, then when I told them about my disability accommodation request for the interview, they ghosted me, even after two follow up emails. A couple weeks later, they posted the job listing again. Meanwhile, people who either have been around disabled people plenty and don't jump to conclusions, or are willing to learn, literally tell me I'm great to work with, etc. (And I got a 4.0 in two very intense graduate programs where it was absolutely possible to fail out - my PhD program considered more than 1 B grounds to be put on probation.) So I know peoples' weird attitudes about me are an ableism problem, not a me problem. I know I work well in teams and alone (but prefer teams), I know people enjoy working with me, I know I can handle working 70 hours a week for years on end, and blah blah no imposter syndrome over here.

I have intentionally not included any specific information about my disability in this post and won't, because it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, being disabled means I have to use creative problem solving every single day, in all kinds of different situations, and that makes me really good at creative problem solving. (Because practice, practice, practice.) I've also discussed my specific disability with some vets and haven't been told anything that dissuades me from this path. They've been encouraging. But the whole mortgage-sized debt thing with vet med school is extra scary for someone who (like the statistics describe) is chronically underemployed due to disability discrimination. (My PhD and masters were both fully funded, meaning they paid me to be there, although not much. I have very little debt from undergrad.) So... it would be nice to know what experiences vets with disabilities are having, especially because most of the vets I've talked to are not high up to be hiring anyone so they may not know how hard it may or may not be for me to get hired.

If it's helpful, I really like wildlife, but if I don't end up competitive in that field (I know there's not many jobs in it to begin with), I would probably be looking at rural mixed farm practice (food animal and equine) or one of those two, depending on what's out there. I'm not a city person.

 

[JaynaAli]

I can’t answer your questions about what it’s like and how disabilities affect job prospects because I don’t have those challenges, but I know both Oklahoma State and CSU have had students in wheelchairs go through their programs. The student at Oklahoma State was starting right as I was finishing (and she’s been graduated for several years now), but the school did some pretty significant renovations and upgrades to facilities to support and accommodate her. Hopefully there are some SDNers who can chime in with more personal experiences. I can think of one or two who may have input, but I won’t tag them for privacy reasons and we’ll let people speak up if they’re comfortable.

What I will say as someone who lives in a rural area and always thought they’d do rural mixed is that even if you’re fully capable of doing the job, you may encounter hesitation from clients just because you’re dealing large, potentially dangerous animals. My best friend does rural mixed and she’s able bodied, but clients were very concerned for her safety working with large animals at first until they really got to know her and see her skills. The clinic owner had no concerns but clients were just used to larger bodied men. I think that would likely be amplified if you use a visible mobility aid or other device. I’m sure it can be overcome once they saw you were capable, but I do think that it would take some time.

Honestly what is a bigger concern for me than the disability is that your fields of interest (wildlife and rural mixed) are lower paying fields of vet med, so it will be harder to pay back super high loans on the typical salary. Not impossible, but harder than if you pursued small animal med or something. If you’re wanting to pursue those fields I’d highly recommend you go to the cheapest school you can (that can appropriately meet your needs of course).

 

[pp9]

There were two students at U of I (during my time there, that I can remember) that had a visible disability. Echoing Jayna - not going to comment on job prospects beyond saying that a lot of places are begging for vets right now, and I didn't know those two students well enough to give you any idea on whether or not they had to deal with serious issues during their education. Paging @battie because she could perhaps connect you to someone if I'm remembering classes correctly.

 

[SportPonies]

There were two students at U of I (during my time there, that I can remember) that had a visible disability. Echoing Jayna - not going to comment on job prospects beyond saying that a lot of places are begging for vets right now, and I didn't know those two students well enough to give you any idea on whether or not they had to deal with serious issues during their education. Paging @battie because she could perhaps connect you to someone if I'm remembering classes correctly.

You’re thinking of me, @SkiOtter saw this and texted me before bats even saw your ping I think, and I suspect Dubz/shorty/dy/literally everyone else would be pinging me shortly too lol

I’ll make a new post with my response.

 

[SportPonies]

I can think of one or two who may have input,

Also, hi Jayna

 

[pp9]

You’re thinking of me, @SkiOtter saw this and texted me before bats even saw your ping I think, and I suspect Dubz/shorty/dy/literally everyone else would be pinging me shortly too lol

I’ll make a new post with my response.

Lol, I did not know this was you! Hi!

ETA: The other student I was thinking of was a few years above me...no idea if they're on SDN.

ETA x2: Now that I think about it more, I believe one of our faculty was in a wheelchair, but I cannot remember her name for the life of me (I might even be thinking of my undergrad days...who knows). If she was one of my vet school instructors, I don't think she was a clinical veterinarian. Repaging @battie + @SkiOtter @SportPonies to borrow from the collective memory bank.

Also, is @wheelin2vetmed still around?

Finally, I dug up this old thread, and there is another SDN user that discusses their experience in it. I don't believe that user is still active, but perhaps some veteran users can connect you? Know any practicing vets or fellow vet students in wheelchairs? And my chances this cycle? I'm not assuming you're in a chair, just giving you more to read regarding visible disabilities.

 

[VeggieTrex]

This thread has been very encouraging to me as a (still) prevet. I was finally/formally diagnosed with EDS, and the adjustment to that has been quite a lot. It's just nice to know about others in my situation because it can feel very lonely.

 

[SportPonies]

Lol, I did not know this was you! Hi!

I thought that might be the case with how you worded your response haha.

 

[pp9]

This thread has been very encouraging to me as a (still) prevet. I was finally/formally diagnosed with EDS, and the adjustment to that has been quite a lot. It's just nice to know about others in my situation because it can feel very lonely.

There is a Facebook group for DVMs with disabilities/chronic illness. I don't know if they have rules for joining, but I hope they would allow prevets/vet students!

 

[SportPonies]

(1) a small but vocal minority of faculty in vet schools may try to impede my progress due to their ableism and (2) I will not be able to find a job afterwards, and have $150-250k in debt that I can't repay.

I do have a very visible disability and went into vet school intending to do equine sports medicine (life sent me other directions). If you’d like to discuss disability types in particular, feel free to PM me.

1) I did not personally experience much of this. It’s something I brought up in a few of my interviews (numerous schools, including a few southern ones) and I discussed my abilities and shortcomings, my concern that people would not take me seriously in the equine world, and how I planned to handle things. None of my interviewers seemed concerned by my abilities or ableist in the slightest. I do not feel it impacted my ability to be accepted anywhere.

I did run into an issue with two equine faculty in fourth year who implied it was unsafe for me to handle even chill horses and preferentially chose students even with less horse experience than me. One of those is no longer at the school (and I came to an understanding with them/they apologized). The other one to my knowledge is still there but I was able to work around them.

I otherwise did not have any issues with staff. I asked for help where I needed it (lifting, leading strong dogs, etc), my classmates were happy to chip in if I needed it, and I helped them where I could repay them for their assistance. The farms staff did not give me any issue at all, and I did not have any disability-specific issues with small animal.

2) I ultimately applied to small animal hospitals on graduation, and in the current veterinary climate, received offers at every hospital.

I am still at the hospital I started at out of school, and I have never had an issue with respect from staff/techs so long as they are also treated with respect and kindness. Largely my clientele are also respectful and do not (at least outwardly) question my abilities.

However, I did not end up going into equine med after deciding I did not want to risk worsening my disability through injury. I’ve been a horse person nearly lifelong but there’s no doubt that horses are unpredictable and dangerous even for able-bodied vets. There’s inherent risk in our field no matter what, so I do encourage you to pursue what you’re happy with (ie, farms, equine, wildlife) so long as you feel comfortable with the risk you’re taking on.

 

[SportPonies]

I think I answered a lot of your questions with that but please let me know if I missed something.

I guess the TLDR is that I did not experience a career-limiting amount of ableism in my interviews or in my time at Illinois, and on the contrary, I actually had a lot of good experiences with my classmates and most staff being supportive and helpful when I did need it.

Obviously I can’t speak extensively for other schools, but I’d hope that you’d have similar experiences at most places. I think so long as you try your hardest, do what you can with your limitations, and help others within your capabilities, you should be well-received and respected.

Idk if @matthirten13 is still around here but he may be able to speak for UC Davis and if he has any disabled classmates.

 

[battie]

I believe one of our faculty was in a wheelchair, but I cannot remember her name for the life of me

You are correct. Our microbio professor at Illinois was in a wheelchair and worked full time in the pathology department without issues that I'm aware of.

 

[SkiOtter]

Now that I think about it more, I believe one of our faculty was in a wheelchair, but I cannot remember her name for the life of me (I might even be thinking of my undergrad days...who knows). If she was one of my vet school instructors, I don't think she was a clinical veterinarian.

If it’s who I’m thinking of, not sure if that professor is a veterinarian at all. I think she was just part of the pathobio department and taught us lectures.

Edit: Lol bats already replied to this before me

 

[pp9]

You are correct. Our microbio professor at Illinois was in a wheelchair and worked full time in the pathology department without issues that I'm aware of.

If it’s who I’m thinking of, not sure if that professor is a veterinarian at all. I think she was just part of the pathobio department and taught us lectures.

Edit: Lol bats already replied to this before me

lol I’m realizing how much of vet school I’ve truly blocked out

 

[disabled&proud]

Thanks all, this is very helpful and encouraging.

The hesitation that rural folks sometimes have about disability, or femme presenting people (not just women, not even just queer folks), or people who aren't physically big and brawny, or people who aren't white, is definitely all very real and very present. But, at least in my experience so far, people are just as yikes about all that in cities. Even in Chicago or Berkeley, both cities that are supposed to be very disability friendly, I've had tons of yikes experiences, and usually city people seem less willing to let me just do whatever it is that I showed up to do, and reserve judgment. Rural America, for all it's many, many faults and frightening realities, also has a longstanding culture where if someone shows up and works hard, people give them at least some kind of respect.

And yeah, the risk when working with big animals, and animals that aren't domesticated, is also very real. For now it doesn't bother me. Maybe I'll change my mind when it's 5+ days/week instead of 1-2 days/week. I don't think I'd be unhappy in small animal (or pet exotics, or poultry or etc). But I love them, even when they're trying to bite me or kick me. I just don't want to be blocked from the option by other people. Obviously people may or may not want to hire me for a host of reasons, and some people will be ableist and they are not who I want to work with.

But I also really worry about the sticker price of a medical degree if it might be harder than average for me to get a job after. My PhD has not improved my employability at all, but also academia is notoriously ableist (and anecdotally that has been my experience), and PhDs are by definition overspecialization into one tiny niche (so it's very difficult to "sell" a PhD in other industries unless someone has a PhD in something that has a big private industry research arm), and my tiny niche neither gives me joy, nor is particularly marketable outside of professor positions due to weird politics within the specific field.

If anyone else has experiences to share, I would love to know more.

 

[disabled&proud]

Lol, I did not know this was you! Hi!

ETA: The other student I was thinking of was a few years above me...no idea if they're on SDN.

ETA x2: Now that I think about it more, I believe one of our faculty was in a wheelchair, but I cannot remember her name for the life of me (I might even be thinking of my undergrad days...who knows). If she was one of my vet school instructors, I don't think she was a clinical veterinarian. Repaging @battie + @SkiOtter @SportPonies to borrow from the collective memory bank.

Also, is @wheelin2vetmed still around?

Finally, I dug up this old thread, and there is another SDN user that discusses their experience in it. I don't believe that user is still active, but perhaps some veteran users can connect you? Know any practicing vets or fellow vet students in wheelchairs? And my chances this cycle? I'm not assuming you're in a chair, just giving you more to read regarding visible disabilities.

I looked through that older thread. There's some more promising things. Although, as I think is apparent from how I asked my questions in my initial post, I absolutely do not ask non-disabled people what ideas they have for my accommodations, because doing so always leads to people saying things like a handful of people in that thread saying they don't know how they'd make something work. (I can think of multiple potential solutions for every possible access barrier I've ever encountered, or can imagine encountering, simply because I encounter various access barriers all the time, and troubleshoot them in real time when they occur, so again, practice, practice, practice.)

I should have also said the other area that I am interested in is shelter med, especially at big shelters where there's one vet team serving multiple programs. The shelter I volunteered at (I was going to try to sign up again with them but I just wrecked my car and they're an hour away from where I live so I am waiting to see what happens with that) has the usual small animal/pocket pets adoptions program, a low cost HQHVSN clinic open to the public (maybe not every day, I can't remember), a farm animal adoptions program (mostly horses and chickens, especially roosters people don't want anymore - go figure), the usual humane investigations program SPCA/humane societies tend to have, and a wildlife clinic. There is one vet team that rotates through all of those species, except I think the farm animals. I think they told me they call in equine or food animal vets for anything more than general first aid on those animals. But, in the HQHVSN clinic the shelter animals, public animals (including catch and release feral cats), and wildlife (one day they brought in a hawk with a broken wing that someone had found) were all treated by one full time vet, a bunch of RVTs, and a couple of part time vets (some paid and some volunteer, and occassionally folks doing an externship who wanted to learn HQHVSN techniques). So that seemed like a really cool job, too. And no one treated me weird, although my responsibility was cleaning surgical instruments, packing the different surgery bundles, and doing clinic laundry, and it was early enough in my exploration of vet med that I didn't really make a point of asking questions. I just did my chores and enjoyed the view (the volunteer station in that clinic has a window overlooking the OR, and I saw all kinds of things, not just spays/neuters). So, I wasn't interacting with folks as much as I probably should have been (I was also just overwhelmed working on my dissertation at the time, having some non-ableism related problems with a professor who I ultimately kicked off my committee, lol).

 

[matthirten13]

Idk if @matthirten13 is still around here but he may be able to speak for UC Davis and if he has any disabled classmates.

Admittedly, I am not sure I am close enough to anyone with a visible disability to speak for that part of the experience. I personally have an invisible disability? and I have friends who also do.

UC Davis, in my eyes, seems very supportive of people with disabilities and trying to accommodate their needs. Admin meets with everyone who has accomodations. I've also been a part of curriculum committee meetings and the upper echelon of admin usually seems to be pushing for items that increase accessibility in terms of classroom learning (not always effective, but they do seem to try)

That said, I am mostly in the didactic portion of school still, can't comment on how they accommodate for surgeries and clinical year.

Calling in @meelc in case she has any wisdom on the topic

 

[BlackCatsRuleTheWorld]

Dr. Brandy Duhon with Heartland Vet Partners graduated from LSU with a "visible" disability and speaks at various vet schools about her experiences. Not sure if you've heard of her story but wanted to share! She talks a lot about creative problem solving like you mentioned.

Q&A with a keynote: Brandy Duhon, DVM

Our Team Members | Heartland Veterinary Partners

Heartland, founded by a veterinarian, is dedicated to supporting veterinary success. Join our family and be part of our mission to improve veterinary lives.

heartlandvetpartners.com

 

[pp9]

But I also really worry about the sticker price of a medical degree if it might be harder than average for me to get a job after.

Again, you should be able to get a job somewhere after graduation (barring any major economy changes). I'm not saying you wouldn't experience any discrimination (either by employers or clients), but there is a sore need for large animal vets. Small animal clinics are also begging for vets in some areas, even though you don't want to head that direction. As of right now, getting a job after graduation somewhere is not an issue.

I just realized that I had answered your post in the WAMC thread as well, so that advice still stands 🙂 Repeating what Jayna said, but you are aiming toward some of the lowest paying sectors of vet med. As someone who would have readily told you 'I don't care about the money!' 10 years ago, like a lot of pre-vets do, just make sure you'd be okay doing something other than large animal/wildlife should your financial situation push you out of those sectors. There is a reason those areas of vet med are short on vets, as unfortunate as it may be.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

https://www.insightintodiversity.com/veterinary-schools-rethink-standards-for-students-with-physical-disabilities/

Episode 52: Navigating veterinary school while battling a disability

On this episode of the Vet Blast Podcast, Jessica Hirsch, a veterinary student at Tufts University, opens up about taking a medical leave of absence during veterinary school, plus how she’s using her unique story to inspire and advocate for other students with disabilities.

www.dvm360.com

 

[disabled&proud]

UC Davis, in my eyes, seems very supportive of people with disabilities and trying to accommodate their needs. Admin meets with everyone who has accomodations. I've also been a part of curriculum committee meetings and the upper echelon of admin usually seems to be pushing for items that increase accessibility in terms of classroom learning (not always effective, but they do seem to try)

That said, I am mostly in the didactic portion of school still, can't comment on how they accommodate for surgeries and clinical year.

Can you clarify a little bit on what you mean (or maybe what UC Davis means) about "items that increase accessibility in terms of classroom learning" and "didactic portion of school"?

I have a whole PhD about this (how humans learn, with my personal research focused on how disabled people, especially autistic people, learn, but the coursework aspect covered more general accessibility and "evidence based learning" I guess we might say), and in my general experience most universities don't do very much "right" at all. (There's actually a large expanse of right aka highly effective things to choose from, but most faculty just lecture, which has a max retention rate of 20% but more commonly 5%, so any program relying primarily on lectures for didactic learning is failing to provide much of an education - students who succeed in lecture courses are doing so in spite of, not because of, what the lecturer is doing most of the time. And all that is true *before* we start considering things like Universal Design for Learning and accessible educational approaches, which are overlapping but not synonymous concepts.)

 

[disabled&proud]

There is a reason those areas of vet med are short on vets, as unfortunate as it may be.

Yeah, I've heard a lot about this. This was my grandparents' life, too. My granddad was a zoo vet and/or lab animal and/or wildlife rehab vet (he moved a lot, in part because for awhile he was doing academia positions that had mixed responsibilities at the time - he was in the generation where zoos starting hiring their own vet staff for the first time). I definitely am not in the "I don't care about money" camp, though. I am deeply aware of both research and personal experiences that show that a person does need to care about making a living/thriving wage for their area to have a decent quality of life.

One thing I think about is maybe I would be able to get a job in ER (just as a human being, I am very calm under pressure, but I have yet to actually see the "behind the scenes" of any ER, so maybe it would be different when it's animals on the verge of dying back to back all day, and no wellness/preventive/puppy or kitten or foal or etc checks to break it up?) or other small animal clinic near where my parents live, and work there for a couple years while living in my parents' garage (this is how I am currently affording to do prereqs, and it's not my favorite, but it is, at least, doable for a year or two at a time), to knock down those loans to a less horrifying level. (There's a weirdly large number of small animal ERs in this area given it's rural.) But I agree with you that I need more GP and maybe other small animal experience (like shelter) in general anyway, before application season, to really make good decisions. I'm trying to make it happen but a lot of places either ghost me (not for ableist reasons, I doubt they google me and I don't open with that info, I'm sure they're just busy) or can't have random people in there for insurance reasons.

 

[pp9]

Yeah, I've heard a lot about this. This was my grandparents' life, too. My granddad was a zoo vet and/or lab animal and/or wildlife rehab vet (he moved a lot, in part because for awhile he was doing academia positions that had mixed responsibilities at the time - he was in the generation where zoos starting hiring their own vet staff for the first time). I definitely am not in the "I don't care about money" camp, though. I am deeply aware of both research and personal experiences that show that a person does need to care about making a living/thriving wage for their area to have a decent quality of life.

One thing I think about is maybe I would be able to get a job in ER (just as a human being, I am very calm under pressure, but I have yet to actually see the "behind the scenes" of any ER, so maybe it would be different when it's animals on the verge of dying back to back all day, and no wellness/preventive/puppy or kitten or foal or etc checks to break it up?) or other small animal clinic near where my parents live, and work there for a couple years while living in my parents' garage (this is how I am currently affording to do prereqs, and it's not my favorite, but it is, at least, doable for a year or two at a time), to knock down those loans to a less horrifying level. (There's a weirdly large number of small animal ERs in this area given it's rural.) But I agree with you that I need more GP and maybe other small animal experience (like shelter) in general anyway, before application season, to really make good decisions. I'm trying to make it happen but a lot of places either ghost me (not for ableist reasons, I doubt they google me and I don't open with that info, I'm sure they're just busy) or can't have random people in there for insurance reasons.

ER is definitely a different beast. I really liked the type of cases/medicine I was doing, but the clientele will burn you out quickly. ER is a great way to make money with a *usually* decent schedule. I feel like most people could handle it, at least for a while. Some people came and went within weeks, though....techs included. I got my 'dream job' but I would go back to ER if it came down to needing more money. Not everyone I worked with (that has since left ER) would say the same.

It's true that vets can do just about anything, and I don't personally believe you need to have a set career path in mind when starting vet school. Just to reiterate though, based on the info you've provided in this and the other thread, I think you would only be doing yourself favors by getting more experience in GP clinics (and ER if you have the interest), especially now that you are thinking about using them as a 'backup' plan. Feel free to message me if you want to talk about it more, I don't want to derail this thread, which is a very important conversation to have. I went to vet school with a specific career path in mind (that is also not well-paid) and I am lucky I got it in my current circumstances - things would be different if it didn't work out.

 

[VeggieTrex]

I've been thinking about this thread a lot, and wanted to add something else. Psychiatric illnesses are also covered as a disability. Anything that significantly impacts your ability to do basic life activities (eating, sleeping, showering, ect) is a disability. They're usually called invisible, but I really dislike that framing. Unfortunately disability rights are advancing very slowly and don't often take the communities needs into account.

I've learned it's very hard for nominally mentally stable folks to really comprehend that even "just anxiety" can make it downright impossible to do the most basic things sometimes. There is a persistent stigma around those of us with a more complex relationship with our mental health, especially in vet med. Disability is not always obvious and not giving out the full story can be necessary for safety. Abelism is a very tricky thing and shows up in the darnedest places.

 

[disabled&proud]

I've been thinking about this thread a lot, and wanted to add something else. Psychiatric illnesses are also covered as a disability. Anything that significantly impacts your ability to do basic life activities (eating, sleeping, showering, ect) is a disability. They're usually called invisible, but I really dislike that framing. Unfortunately disability rights are advancing very slowly and don't often take the communities needs into account.

I've learned it's very hard for nominally mentally stable folks to really comprehend that even "just anxiety" can make it downright impossible to do the most basic things sometimes. There is a persistent stigma around those of us with a more complex relationship with our mental health, especially in vet med. Disability is not always obvious and not giving out the full story can be necessary for safety. Abelism is a very tricky thing and shows up in the darnedest places.

I 100% agree with all of this. I was just asking about visible disability in this thread because my disability that people can "see" when they interact with me is the one that people in a job interview or during a probation period when first hired would notice and potentially lead to issues. What people can "see" isn't really enough for a lay person to even guess what my actual disability is (honestly even a general practice MD/DO can't - often when I walk in to a new doc initial appointment they make the same assumptions that random lay people do, lol), but they make up various things in their minds and a lot of people treat me poorly because of it.

 

[disabled&proud]

ER is definitely a different beast. I really liked the type of cases/medicine I was doing, but the clientele will burn you out quickly. ER is a great way to make money with a *usually* decent schedule. I feel like most people could handle it, at least for a while. Some people came and went within weeks, though....techs included. I got my 'dream job' but I would go back to ER if it came down to needing more money. Not everyone I worked with (that has since left ER) would say the same.

It's true that vets can do just about anything, and I don't personally believe you need to have a set career path in mind when starting vet school. Just to reiterate though, based on the info you've provided in this and the other thread, I think you would only be doing yourself favors by getting more experience in GP clinics (and ER if you have the interest), especially now that you are thinking about using them as a 'backup' plan. Feel free to message me if you want to talk about it more, I don't want to derail this thread, which is a very important conversation to have. I went to vet school with a specific career path in mind (that is also not well-paid) and I am lucky I got it in my current circumstances - things would be different if it didn't work out.

I am definitely trying for GP and ER experience! And I won't give up on that. I am just having trouble finding anyone local to where I currently am who can let me do any shadowing, and none of my applications to work for GP have panned out (but there also haven't been many openings to begin with). But I haven't given up and I would really like to work in GP at least for awhile. There is an exotics-only vet (so, GP but not dog and cat GP, I guess? I'm not sure if that's quite how people who know more about vet med would categorize it) who let me shadow and was very friendly and I might ask her if we could set up something longer term, but have a couple other random unrelated things this month that made it hard for me to know what my schedule in general will look like next month so just haven't sat down to figure out my exact ask. Last summer I applied to a job opening she had and she told me her practice just had two vet assistants leave for vet school and it was too hard on her practice business-wise to do that again, if she can find someone who intends to stay long term. Which is totally fair. I know staff turnaround is super expensive for businesses in general from working in other industries with high turnaround in the past.

 

[disabled&proud]

Related question: Does the MMI or any other aspect of application process allow for the opportunity to ask questions? I would like to explicitly ask one or two questions about faculty attitudes towards disability.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Related question: Does the MMI or any other aspect of application process allow for the opportunity to ask questions? I would like to explicitly ask one or two questions about faculty attitudes towards disability.

MMI usually won't, but it doesn't mean you can't ask during your interview schedule.

 

[beans2020]

Related question: Does the MMI or any other aspect of application process allow for the opportunity to ask questions? I would like to explicitly ask one or two questions about faculty attitudes towards disability.

When I interviewed at vet schools during the last application cycle, I had the opportunity to ask questions at the end of each interview. These were all more traditional interviews (no MMI - I'm not sure about MMI specifically) and the interviewers were all very happy to answer my questions, so I'd imagine you should have the opportunity to ask your interviewers at the very least.

 

[supershorty]

any other aspect of application process allow for the opportunity to ask questions?

You can always email the contact person for applicants with questions about programs. That’s why they are there 🙂

 

[matthirten13]

Can you clarify a little bit on what you mean (or maybe what UC Davis means) about "items that increase accessibility in terms of classroom learning" and "didactic portion of school"?

First 2 years are largely classroom. 3rd year you start surgeries, 4th year you are in clinics. I imagine someone would need different accomodations for the latter 2 years compared to sitting in a classroom.

In terms of increasing accessibility, I am mostly referring to things like: making sure essentially all content is online for people that can't make it in or people with learning disabilities who do better with start/stop recordings at home. This extends to some of our non-classroom learning (ex. dissection labs) where afaik people have been given special permission to take extra recordings if they have accomodations.

 

[disabled&proud]

You can always email the contact person for applicants with questions about programs. That’s why they are there 🙂

I have, and they usually don't know the answer to questions about students with disabilities, or attitudes towards disability among faculty. Or, maybe they don't want to put anything in writing. Usually I get a weird packaged sounding response like "I don't know if we've had students with disabilities, but if you want to know more about the accommodation process, contact the Disability Access Center," which is totally unrelated to attitudes towards disability and usually access center staff aren't aware of much other than whether certain departments might have done some trainings with them or not.

 

[disabled&proud]

First 2 years are largely classroom. 3rd year you start surgeries, 4th year you are in clinics. I imagine someone would need different accomodations for the latter 2 years compared to sitting in a classroom.

In terms of increasing accessibility, I am mostly referring to things like: making sure essentially all content is online for people that can't make it in or people with learning disabilities who do better with start/stop recordings at home. This extends to some of our non-classroom learning (ex. dissection labs) where afaik people have been given special permission to take extra recordings if they have accomodations.

What happens in classrooms? A lot of veterinary medical schools just have lectures (which, from a scientific perspective, are almost a complete waste of time - there's only about a 5% retention rate for most lectures, and the best lecturers, usually ones who are very skilled at metacognition aka explaining how they think/approach problem solving, and generally using images, can only get up to 20% retention rate - and are also not very accessible for many reasons). Human medical schools have mostly (at least from what I've read) switched over to more project-based learning, case-based learning, or simulations. (The private vet school in Southern California, forget the name, does this, but they cost way too much and private colleges/universities in general are worse at providing disability accommodations, with a rumored exception being Stanford, but that rumor may be unfounded, and they're irrelevant to us here in veterinary fields.) Any/all of these evidence based methods (case studies, project based learning, simulations, etc) have a far greater retention rate than lectures. (They all have pros and cons, of course, and one or the other might fit certain content better than the others, but they blow lectures out of the water, period.) I've tried multiple ways to try to get staff from UCD vet med admissions to tell me what happens in classrooms, but they don't seem to understand my question. They always just say something like "a mix of classroom, lab, and clinicals" which, yes, of course, but what happens in the classrooms is going to be a huge determining factor for me in both accessibility and just general "are they paying attention to research on how people learn to design their courses" (because lectures aren't that accessible for me - obviously I have survived a lot of them given I have degrees, but if I'm going into a mountain of debt I will rank my school choices according to where I think has the best actual education, although secondary to cost because the smaller amount of debt I have the more accessible things are since my employment options may be more limited due to discrimination).

If it's just lectures (in the classroom learning) can I just skip them all (or only watch recordings at home) without penalties? (And read the textbook, which isn't much better than lectures, but at least I can do that somewhere more comfortable than a lecture hall, and stop and start.) In lecture-based programs the real learning happens in study groups with peers, through studying at home, and through whatever assignments there might be. The lectures themselves are usually only there because of traditions in academia, and usually learning happens in spite of them, not because of them. (This is all from scientific evidence for human learning, not my opinions. I can cite my sources if people want, but there's two free books online, How People Learn, and How People Learn II, which are an excellent starting place, but I don't remember whether they mention lectures specifically.)

 

[_rae_]

I am happy to share my experience as a disabled veterinary student.

I have rheumatoid arthritis, significant hyper mobility, and migraines. I'm also in the unfortunate position of needing surgery on both my feet before the end of the semester. So far, most of my professors have been happy to work with or accommodate me, ranging from rescheduling clinical skills exams if my hands are not cooperating to giving me essentially unlimited excused absences as long as I don't abuse that. I do have accommodations through the disability office, but that is more to cover my butt should I get any pushback from a professor.

I attend UMN and it is a solid mix of independent learning, required in person lectures and labs, and live zooms that are posted usually within 24 hours. I am also a hands on learner, but I wouldn't discredit lecture learning, especially since most if not all vet schools will have them. They are pretty much inescapable. Something like integrated physiology would be incredibly difficult to teach as a "case-based" only course, but all of my professors so far have linked everything we're talking about back to a clinical experience (ivermectin toxicity in dogs with MDR1 mutations to connect back to glycoproteins, lethal white syndrome to connect back to melanocyte movement, etc.). We need to learn the why so we understand the how. Treating Addison's and understanding what causes it and what can go wrong are two totally different beasts.

Unfortunately, I do think context of disability does matter (but I am by no means asking you to share. Just because I'm comfortable sharing doesn't mean everyone is). For instance, I love the idea of being a surgeon. However, my rheumatoid arthritis is currently not well controlled and neither are my migraines. There's a lot of potential interference were I to try to be a surgeon. What if my hands go numb during surgery? What if I wake up one morning and my fingers are so stiff I can't hold a pencil?

I'm happy to answer any potential questions (from anyone!) about how I approached my professors, how I worked with the disability office, and how I handle my own disability while in school.

 

[SkiOtter]

I do have accommodations through the disability office, but that is more to cover my butt should I get any pushback from a professor.

Highly fcking recommend this to anyone with any sort of disability or issue that may cause the need for any small accommodations, even if you don’t think you actually need it. Personal experience with a lowered grade because of bull**** from uiuc’s former anatomy professor 🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠(no I’m still not over it from fall 2018 and yes I’m still holding a grudge)

 

[battie]

've tried multiple ways to try to get staff from UCD vet med admissions to tell me what happens in classrooms, but they don't seem to understand my question. They always just say something like "a mix of classroom, lab, and clinicals"

They do understand the question. The reason you get a canned answer is because each professor is given the leeway to teach how they want. So admissions cannot tell you how each class is cause they simply don't know.

During my third year at UIUC, we had a mix of traditional lectures and flipped classroom. That was awful. Unfortunately, it's impossible to have both styles of teaching in the same program at the same time when you have a 25 credit load. And due to comfort levels, people actually let the flipped classroom classes fall to the way side because they'd all already had figured out how to study for the lecture style courses.

If it's just lectures (in the classroom learning) can I just skip them all (or only watch recordings at home) without penalties?

Class dependent. After I failed first year, I stopped going to class except for those where attendance was actively taken. And even when I went to class, I sat in the back and did other stuff.

There's been discussion on SDN before on teaching teachers in higher education. Unfortunately, there is no standardization and when you're in later years, teaching is a secondary responsibility because your teachers are clinicians with clinical and research responsibilities on top of teaching. So while some of our professors tried hard to keep up on new teaching information, others honestly didn't have the time to do so.

 

[pp9]

A lot of veterinary medical schools just have lectures (which, from a scientific perspective, are almost a complete waste of time - there's only about a 5% retention rate for most lectures, and the best lecturers, usually ones who are very skilled at metacognition aka explaining how they think/approach problem solving, and generally using images, can only get up to 20% retention rate - and are also not very accessible for many reasons). Human medical schools have mostly (at least from what I've read) switched over to more project-based learning, case-based learning, or simulations.

Being 'enlightened' about whether or not lectures work isn't going to change that you will probably need to sit through 2-3 years of them if you get into vet school. Throwing out a bunch of factoids isn't going to inspire a school to suddenly switch their teaching style. Very few schools are 100% PBL/non-lecture last I checked.

You bring up medical schools - the goal of medical school education is very different than that of veterinary school, so the two can't really be compared imo. Vet school graduates students to be fully fledged, practicing vets (who may or may not specialize further), med school graduates students who then go on to complete many years of specialty training before they are fully fledged. Paging @WhtsThFrequency because their input is worth more than mine here.

because lectures aren't that accessible for me - obviously I have survived a lot of them given I have degrees, but if I'm going into a mountain of debt I will rank my school choices according to where I think has the best actual education

Are we venturing into learning disability/other territory, or was this more of an additional comment on how you dislike traditional lectures? I only ask because you imply here that a specific school (a PBL school) might make you a better vet than another school would...I don't agree with this. It's fine to prefer one teaching/learning style over another, but teaching style doesn't mean much when it comes to how well you'll function as a vet out in the real world. There's so much more to being a 'good vet' than what any school can teach, and a lot of those skills are learned once you are out in practice and get experience being the doctor.

Your posts show that you need a lot more career exposure before you commit to this field. Edit: I don't intend to come across as harsh when I say this, by the way. I know I've already mentioned that you need more experience with a vet. I just don't think you're in a position to make judgements about veterinary education when you don't know what goes down in vet school, what a vet does on the daily, etc.

If it's just lectures (in the classroom learning) can I just skip them all (or only watch recordings at home) without penalties?

That might vary from school to school. Some schools might have attendance points as part of your grade, others may not. U of I had a small percentage of points based on clicker questions. Some students chose to skip all classes anyways because the points were inconsequential to them.

 

[disabled&proud]

I see I've touched a nerve with several people regarding the lectures thing.

The research is the research. Lectures are minimally effective, period. The way humans learn is by practicing increasingly complex tasks within a field. (Learning styles is a myth that was disproven as fully as anything in science can be, but retains traction simply because people do have preferences, and accessibility needs, and learning styles gets grabbed up as a proxy for talking about those, despite there being totally different solutions to learning styles vs preferences vs accessibility needs.) Imagine an outdated practice in vet med, that doesn't usually kill anyone, but no one who's been up with continuing education (or otherwise aware of current knowledge) would consider using because it's just not that effective. That's how folks who study human learning view lectures. It is definitely true that most faculty at large research universities have research or clinical responsibilities (depending on what their field is) that make it pretty impossible for them to learn how to teach. But that's why I'm asking these questions.

I can't say, from a research perspective, which kind of evidence-based learning works best for which kind of class in vet med, and I never claimed to. None of what I'm saying is about my personal preferences, it's only about trying to narrow down which schools would give me the best education by (1) having a majority positive attitude among vet med faculty about disability and supporting disabled students, and (2) having the maximum proportion of evidence-based teaching methods because these additionally enhance disability accessibility and reduce the "side labor" of people with disabilities (with a handful of exceptions that don't apply to me personally).

Lecturing also doesn't include all "explaining." Obviously some things need to be explained or described (metacognition, or the ability to recognize and explain how you problem solve, is really important for both learners and teachers). The goal in human learning should always be to provide increasingly complex tasks that are relevant to the ultimate learning goal. Scaffolds like, for an example of something I've personally seen, the medical director scrubbing into a surgery to assist an intern by asking questions, pointing out things she's noticing that the intern may not be, etc, are invaluable and definitely where the best learning happens (in any field - the same would be true of, say, an archaeologist assisting an archaeology PhD candidate in identifying the best way to excavate something).

So unless veterinary medicine involves a lot of standing around lecturing to captive audiences, lecturing doesn't fit the skills a vet needs. I focused on PBL, case-based, and flipped classrooms simply because they're the most well known, and the approaches that a lot of vet schools are advertising revamped curriculums utilizing. What I can't tell is what proportions of their curricula are those things. Throwing in a week of simulations, or a 2 week case-based learning activity, once a year is not going to be sufficient for a student to turn around and figure out how a years' worth of courses can be applied. (I suspect no school, even the most traditional ones, have that minimal of opportunities, though, because on vet med schools' social media they're always talking about tons of "hands-on" opportunities of different types, from volunteering on weekends/nights, to various other activities.)

Obviously a vet med program is not going to change itself just because I show up as a student with expertise in human learning and can point out which things they're doing great and which things they could improve, but I am trying to determine which schools I should have on my "long list" of places probably worth applying to, and evidence-based learning approach use is tied up in disability accessibility. Having this list will help me determine exactly which chemistry classes I still need to take (since they aren't uniform on this question), whether my animal physiology class that I took counts (it doesn't for Davis, but I think it does for several others) and therefore whether or not I should take another and if so which one, and also which campuses I want to make an effort to visit (if they have visiting days for prospective students at all). It will also help me identify which faculty I might want to contact directly to ask about specific programs/opportunities. Maybe I'll find out enough about Davis that I won't want to prioritize it and will decide to move somewhere else to gain residency before applying, so that other prioritized school would then by my in state. (I'd run realistic maths on that before actually moving, but it is something I have considered, especially if I wanted to go somewhere that doesn't let you claim residency.)

 

[_rae_]

It's not that you've "hit a nerve" with lectures; it's your entire "holier than thou" attitude amongst this whole thread. Disability justice is not a buzzword, but you sure make it seem like everyone else's support is performative. You come to this forum requesting experiences and information, and then rant about your own expertise and how we're wrong, despite not having the clinical experience and clout to back up your statements. You assume "ableist" professors will keep you from being a veterinarian, when you're setting yourself up for failure by assuming everyone is out to get you because you're disabled. The thing that's going to keep you from being a veterinarian is your condescending attitude and self-righteous rants, and assuming the worst of everyone around you. Not everything is a personal attack, worthy of an "I'm smarter than the average bear" essay in response. Get ready, we're all smarter than the average bear. That's why we're here.

As far as I'm concerned, everyone here has been respectful and attempting to explain to you that yes, being a disabled veterinary student is hard but not impossible. You seem convinced that you'll have to claw your way through everything when every is telling you that is not the case, but you do need to be willing to work with the system currently in place.

If you take anything from this, please listen to @pinkpuppy9 and get some more medical experience working specifically as an assistant or tech, not just shadowing. I shadowed for a whole summer and didn't truly know what the field was like until I was working on patients of my own. Not only will it give you a better understanding of how your disability might impact your work and what reasonable accommodations you might need, it will give you the chance to grow as a human being as well.

From one disabled person to another - working with the system will get you further than making yourself a victim. Show them want you can do, don't lament on what you can't.

 

[pp9]

So unless veterinary medicine involves a lot of standing around lecturing to captive audiences

I spent a lot of time doing exactly this when I was in small animal medicine...

just because I show up as a student with expertise in human learning and can point out which things they're doing great and which things they could improve

This is teeming with arrogance. I can't tell you much about disabilities in the field, but I can tell you when you're being insufferable. Proceed with caution, because there are multiple PhDs and vet med/med school faculty on these forums that actually do teach in veterinary and medical schools. Please, someone chime in

The thing that's going to keep you from being a veterinarian is your condescending attitude and self-righteous rants, and assuming the worst of everyone around you. Not everything is a personal attack, worthy of an "I'm smarter than the average bear" essay in response.

Perfectly stated.

 

[battie]

So, just a couple of points that stood out:

Imagine an outdated practice in vet med, that doesn't usually kill anyone, but no one who's been up with continuing education (or otherwise aware of current knowledge) would consider using because it's just not that effective

This happens all the time because medicine itself isnt black and white. Probably the most pertinent currently is the use of metronidazole in AHDS/HGE, or prazosin in UO tomcats. Another good one is juvenile spays and neuters in large breed dogs.

None of these treatments kill the average patient. But now there's question of their efficacy for the individual patient and that balance with the population at large.

Not to mention folks like Dr. Jeff and Dr. Pol who have or should have lost their license at some point and yet are still practicing substandard medicine overall.

So while I get your point, the analogy doesn't land because there are 100k veterinarians practicing medicine in hundreds of different ways.

So unless veterinary medicine involves a lot of standing around lecturing to captive audiences, lecturing doesn't fit the skills a vet needs.

This is exactly what vet med education is like on clinics and even in real world places, regardless of where you go. Ultimately, it comes down to who is teaching you. Some people are great teachers. Others find it a chore.

(I suspect no school, even the most traditional ones, have that minimal of opportunities, though, because on vet med schools' social media they're always talking about tons of "hands-on" opportunities of different types, from volunteering on weekends/nights, to various other activities.)

I mean, social media is fake on a lot of levels and academia is no different. The point is to sell you the school.

I honestly argue how worthwhile their "hands on activities" in first or second year are. I would argue the model Mizzou and Miss follow of two years of didactics and then two years of clinics would be far more valuable to graduate practice ready.

I am trying to determine which schools I should have on my "long list" of places probably worth applying to, and evidence-based learning approach use is tied up in disability accessibility

And you're likely to not find this info.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Looks like I have been summoned 😂. For the OP, I'm a veterinary specialist who teaches at a medical school, and in particular one that places a huge emphasis on progressive teaching methods.

OP is correct in that lecture-based format is certainly not ideal for long-term retention, even with engaging lecturers. But we all already know/knew that. Others on this thread are also correct for pointing out changing this is much easier said than done, and how entrenched that type of teaching has become because vet med struggles with everything from faculty retention to training in teaching methodology (the latter of which take time, effort, and money which are all in short supply when you have clinicians trying to balance teaching on top of all their other responsibilities). The OP can look back through my posts on medical education (human and veterinary) for context.

However, the issue people have here isn't with you finding the best programmatic and curricular styles that suit you (and promotes better long-term retention) and getting info on how disabled vets can be successful. Everyone here would be happy to help with that, and many have. The problem is, as others have said, that you need to work on how you come across to others. There are ways to inquire and critique without coming off as a sort of imperious know-it-all, which you do border on more than once in this thread. I would wager that, if you talk to people in real life the way you talk to us here, the reason you are having trouble findings jobs/opportunities has more to do with how you talk to and interact with others than your specific disability, unless the latter is the direct influencer of the former.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I honestly argue how worthwhile their "hands on activities" in first or second year are. I would argue the model Mizzou and Miss follow of two years of didactics and then two years of clinics would be far more valuable to graduate practice ready.

This is also a very good point. If you don’t have the foundations, then hands-on activities are going to be a real struggle unless you have a very low student to instructor ratio and a lot of time. “Remembering” and “understanding” come before “applying”, and remembering and understanding come from a combination of didactic sessions and self-directed learning. You get a lot more out of an applied session when you have the necessary facts and background as to what X is, or how Y happens, or why Z does what it does.

Of course, that doesn’t mean the didactic portions have to be in the traditional “sage on the stage” format - there are lots of engaging ways to promote understanding in a classroom environment.

 

[VeggieTrex]

I'll also throw out that since ChatGPT and similar LLMs have entered the market, everything learned about teaching/learning will change in the next handful of years. I've seen some anecdotal posts from undergrad professors about them causing significant issues which are only getting worse. I have a feeling that it will not get easier to teach people when it seems that a machine will do the work for them. It already takes a long time to get good research published, and now there's an even bigger variable floating around. I'll also say that Generative AI is not an accessibility tool, it's a plagarism tool. Accessibility is more like, I don't know, working with individual students to find targeted areas they need support and modifying to the fullest extent possible. I haven't seen anyone here say anything like that, but I unfortunately have seen AI is accessibility around.

 

[pp9]

I honestly argue how worthwhile their "hands on activities" in first or second year are. I would argue the model Mizzou and Miss follow of two years of didactics and then two years of clinics would be far more valuable to graduate practice ready.

I agree with you. I don't think the 1st/2nd year clinical quarters were time well spent. Even for the clinical skills labs...models/simulations have a purpose, but being able to take those skills and actually practice them on a living animal is far more important in the context of producing 'practice-ready' students. The current state of veterinary education is sorely lacking in that aspect. We are graduating with minimal surgical skills, for example. It's great that I've practiced suturing on an overused piece of sponge and rubber, but that doesn't mean I have good tissue handling skills as a result.

I would have much preferred longer clinical rotations/more time on the clinic floor. More of us could have rotated through dentistry, ophtho, or cardiology if that were the case.

I'll also say that Generative AI is not an accessibility tool, it's a plagarism tool.

Someone was already asking about using AI to write their personal statement (in the VMCAS thread a few months back).

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

What really worries me about AI is not just the information validity issue, but how it will affect written and verbal communication skills. Learning and practicing how to properly explain phenomena and diseases in your own words (to a patient, to a colleague, for a paper, whatever) is a MASSIVELY important skill and too often overlooked......and can be obliterated by AI. Why figure out how how to explain it on your own when someone/thing else can do it for you. Passive learning and passive communication.

AI can be wonderful for some things. I used AI text as a sort of "inspiration" for how to organize and craft several important (non-scientific) letters for instance. I'm very wordy (as you all may have noticed) and AI helps me trim things down. I think it can be used as a good tool to get you thinking about different, better and more concise ways to explain things....but you STILL have to work that into your own writing skill and not just copy and paste the word vomit.

 

[VeggieTrex]

As someone with a Foreign Language background (Italian) translation is an area of interest for me. Educating clients on an issue is all about translating jargon to something more understandable by lay people. Why learn to do that well when a machine will do it for you?

 

[disabled&proud]

I would wager that, if you talk to people in real life the way you talk to us here, the reason you are having trouble findings jobs/opportunities has more to do with how you talk to and interact with others than your specific disability, unless the latter is the direct influencer of the former.

I do not, and this isn't my problem with getting jobs in vet med. I know this for certain because I have only had one single interview for any vet med related paid position, so it's definitely my resume/cover letter (or the many, many versions that I continue to try to develop) that's stopping me there. Most likely there's just no way to improve how I write either, and people just want someone they can plug into their clinic with minimal training because they're busy. The people I volunteer with never say anything like this about me. They usually say the opposite (that I am a good team member/communicator).

I do get long winded and tend to infodump online. (Just in case infodump is new language for someone, its the word neurodivergent people from different communities often use to mean "describe most of what you know/find interesting about a topic all at once.") And I did get annoyed that people in this thread seemed to be implying that the knowledge I had to claw my way through a 5-year PhD program to acquire was wrong or just my "opinion" or "preference." This education necessarily included requiring us to constantly "defend" everything in writing and occasionally orally, and I apologize if how I phrased things was harmful. PhD writing/rhetoric is definitely an unfortunate skill that I have to unlearn, and I do fall into it to some extent or another just because I've had to do a huge amount of it, and all of it very recent.

I agree generative AI has largely upsetting implications for education, although I don't really speculate what they are, simply because I avoid it like the plague. I have a professor friend who was saying a bunch of students who are either neurodivergent or whose first language is not English (or a combination of both) keep getting things they did not use AI for flagged as AI. So that's a massive problem.

Several of the resume workshops I've done recently have explicitly told us to use generative AI to create resumes and cover letters (by inputting the job description), and then using that as a rough draft that you polish up. This sounds like a terrible idea to me so I have never tried it. Now that you've mentioned people potentially using it in any kind of medical education, a new horror has been unlocked.

2 years of clinicals instead of 1 does sound excellent. I'll look into Miss and Mizzou. I have not yet, partly because most of the schools I've been looking at are ones located near friends or relatives, and none of my friends or relatives live in those areas. It is very tiring to move places you know absolutely no one, or even if you know one or two people, but that's it. (I've done this many times.)

 

[supershorty]

And I did get annoyed that people in this thread seemed to be implying that the knowledge I had to claw my way through a 5-year PhD program to acquire was wrong or just my "opinion" or "preference." This education necessarily included requiring us to constantly "defend" everything in writing and occasionally orally, and I apologize if how I phrased things was harmful. PhD writing/rhetoric is definitely an unfortunate skill that I have to unlearn, and I do fall into it to some extent or another just because I've had to do a huge amount of it, and all of it very recent.

So I’m just going to be straight with you, since based on your other posts in some other threads, you don’t have a super strong concept of what being a vet entails:

Having a PhD will not help you at being successful in veterinary school.

You have to learn very different skills to be successful as a veterinary student and as a medical doctor. So I’d work on reframing your current attitude, which comes across to others somewhat poorly and condescending, because that will not get you very far.

Maybe you’ve said it in another thread, but why do you want to be a veterinarian? What’s different about this advanced degree to you? Why should an admissions committee believe that you’ll stick with this career path? I think focusing on those questions and doing some soul searching, and then getting far more exposure to the field, is what you need to do before thinking about specific programs to apply to.

 

[battie]

And I did get annoyed that people in this thread seemed to be implying that the knowledge I had to claw my way through a 5-year PhD program to acquire was wrong or just my "opinion" or "preference."

The intent wasn't to say that your area of expertise is wrong. The intent was tp tell you that your knowledge of how teaching and learning should be done isn't reflective of real life in veterinary education. Likewise, the extensive answers you gave did not indicate you understood that your ideal situation simply doesn't exist. You were explaining things many of us also already know on at least a superficial level and came across as condescending.

Ignoring the tense aspects of the conversation, here's the tl;dr of our answers:
1. No admissions department will be able to tell you about attitudes of faculty towards individuals with disabilities because they don't know. If there hasn't been a negative report from a student towards the faculty member, the base assumption is there isn't a problem. And as has been mentioned, faculty change yearly, so there's no way to know about a lot of folks that just joined the program.

2. It doesn't seem to be a huge concern in regards to getting hired with an obvious disability based on the people here. It's certainly a YMMV situation though as there are many clinics difficult to work with as a fully able bodies person, let alone someone who may need any sort of accommodations. I would bet my student loans there isn't a lot of data, if any, on this topic.