Doctors with disabilities?

[WhtsThFrequency]

I do not, and this isn't my problem with getting jobs in vet med. I know this for certain because I have only had one single interview for any vet med related paid position, so it's definitely my resume/cover letter (or the many, many versions that I continue to try to develop) that's stopping me there. Most likely there's just no way to improve how I write either, and people just want someone they can plug into their clinic with minimal training because they're busy. The people I volunteer with never say anything like this about me. They usually say the opposite (that I am a good team member/communicator).

I misspoke then regarding vet med jobs specifically - I was referring to you saying this in your first post about your struggles:

“ I have a long list of nightmare stories where, for example, people will hire me then give me zero hours because they see me as a liability (I'm not, it's just ableism; there are a very small handful of jobs that exist that I *would* be a liability for due to my disability, but I have never, and will never, attempt to get any of those jobs because that's not my jam). Or, people will be very excited about me on paper, then I show up for the interview and they look visibly shocked when they see I am disabled. Some people will literally stare with very wide eyes at my assistive device, like it's a cobra about to strike them. Obviously they do not hire me. Or most recently someone invited me to interview, then when I told them about my disability accommodation request for the interview, they ghosted me, even after two follow up emails. A couple weeks later, they posted the job listing again. Meanwhile, people who either have been around disabled people plenty and don't jump to conclusions, or are willing to learn, literally tell me I'm great to work with, etc. (And I got a 4.0 in two very intense graduate programs where it was absolutely possible to fail out - my PhD program considered more than 1 B grounds to be put on probation.) So I know peoples' weird attitudes about me are an ableism problem, not a me problem”

I’ll say this gently but….have you really done enough introspection to be certain of this? Perhaps you are inherently more pleasant and less defensive with people whom you know have been around people with disabilities more, because you assume they will be more accepting, and with people you know less about you present yourself in a (perhaps unconsciously) with more of a wall? Or come out of the gate too hard because you are assuming the worst? The best defense is a good offense? Just food for thought.

You definitly have to work on your writing. You come off as condescending, as several
others have also said. For example, let’s be honest, everyone under the age of 60 knows what infodumping is. Explaining it to us in a pious academic tone isn’t necessary. As someone with several flavors of neurodivergence myself, I’m all too well aware because I do it a ton and it has taken a lot of work to mold myself into an efficient educator (read: mask). I’m very successful at it now while keeping…let’s just call it my quirks, which my students thankfully find charming, lol. But it took work.

The reason I bring this up is I see elements of how I used to write/speak when I was in my early 20s (not sure how old you are) in your writing and tone - and looking back a decade and a half later, I realize how insufferable I probably was to some people back then (regardless of whether I knew it or not, and even though it wasn’t a fault of mine or something I did on purpose) and that contributed to my struggles with school and connecting with others. Once people got to know me, it was totally different - similar to what you report. I will never forget a classmate telling me in fourth year (when we finally worked in groups on clinics) “WhtsThFrequency wow. You’re actually really nice”. It really made me evaluate how I was coming off to people and do a deep dive into my brain-mouth connection.

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[WhtsThFrequency]

Having a PhD will not help you at being successful in veterinary school.

Absolutely. Completely different beasts.

 

[disabled&proud]

Perhaps you are inherently more pleasant and less defensive with people whom you know have been around people with disabilities more, because you assume they will be more accepting, and with people you know less about you present yourself in a (perhaps unconsciously) with more of a wall?

In this thread I am just specifically asking for info about experiences of ableism/non-ableism/anti-ableism, which is why I am writing about these things. Suggesting that this somehow represents my personality as being someone who is putting up walls is a bit weird.

IRL, or in other places online, I don't usually bring up my disability or experiences with ableism at all, unless someone asks a question, I need to ask for an accommodation, or something is a funny story.

With respect to not getting jobs, usually I show up all bright eyed and bushy tailed, and then someone doesn't give me hours, usually without even interacting with me beyond the phone/zoom interview where they seemed excited about me (and must have been, because they hired me from that interview). Most of these jobs were, ironically, in disability support agencies/direct support professional areas (because those kinds of jobs are the most commonly available in the rural areas I have lived in when not a full time student).

Having a PhD may not help someone in vet school, but it shows admissions committees that I am able to work for 60-70 hours a week for years on end. That's all I meant by that. A vet I have talked to (who is retired) told me that specifically will be meaningful for admissions purposes (obviously not as a core thing, but as a part of the holistic evaluation).

 

[pp9]

With respect to not getting jobs, usually I show up all bright eyed and bushy tailed, and then someone doesn't give me hours, usually without even interacting with me beyond the phone/zoom interview where they seemed excited about me (and must have been, because they hired me from that interview).

Your thread has derailed, unfortunately...at this point it's seeming like you need quite a bit of guidance, whether it be from anonymous people within the field on SDN or elsewhere. It seems like some info is being withheld from this tidbit here that would change how we interpret the situation.

You apparently getting hired for an actual job (key word = 'hired,' which in my mind involves onboarding paperwork/etc), then either being scheduled initially then taken off or not scheduled at all after being hired, sounds like a repeat issue for you based on your wording. I feel like there is more to the story, whether you realize it or not, and it may not be something you want to hear. Have you reached out to these places and figured out what was going on? Have any of these places actually fired you, or communicated anything to you?

There are only a few specific situations in my mind that result in someone being hired, then 'falling off' of the schedule but never being truly fired. I've seen it both within and outside of vet med. A somewhat similar situation happened to a close friend of mine, repeatedly. We finally had the discussion where I told her to start looking at the common denominator

 

[disabled&proud]

A somewhat similar situation happened to a close friend of mine, repeatedly. We finally had the discussion where I told her to start looking at the common denominator

I did ask/was told in some cases. The common denominator was they felt my disability made me a liability, based on just seeing me in person (prior to training, asking about accommodations, any other real conversation). The particular industry where this happened typically (even pre-pandemic) does interviews over the phone/zoom, then if they hire you from that they send you online e-sign forms for onboarding, then you show up for training. In each of the cases where I was personally hired, the boss of the hiring manager pulled me aside within 10 minutes of my walking in the front door and wouldn't let me do the training. This is very illegal but there's also not really any way to enforce disability laws other than a civil lawsuit, but suing someone to force them to hire you is not a good way to start out so I wasn't gonna do that. But, it was incredibly frustrating and is why I "left" that field (or stopped trying to enter it, I guess) and have avoided other related fields where I was told it would be an uphill battle for me to just walk in the front door (I just don't have the energy to enter a field where I will have to constantly argue with people about whether or not I'm automatically a liability just for existing). Which is why I made this thread, trying to figure out what attitudes towards disability are common in vet med/vet med education. The thread is clearly saturated, though.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I did ask/was told in some cases. The common denominator was they felt my disability made me a liability, based on just seeing me in person (prior to training, asking about accommodations, any other real conversation). The particular industry where this happened typically (even pre-pandemic) does interviews over the phone/zoom, then if they hire you from that they send you online e-sign forms for onboarding, then you show up for training. In each of the cases where I was personally hired, the boss of the hiring manager pulled me aside within 10 minutes of my walking in the front door and wouldn't let me do the training. This is very illegal but there's also not really any way to enforce disability laws other than a civil lawsuit, but suing someone to force them to hire you is not a good way to start out so I wasn't gonna do that. But, it was incredibly frustrating and is why I "left" that field (or stopped trying to enter it, I guess) and have avoided other related fields where I was told it would be an uphill battle for me to just walk in the front door (I just don't have the energy to enter a field where I will have to constantly argue with people about whether or not I'm automatically a liability just for existing). Which is why I made this thread, trying to figure out what attitudes towards disability are common in vet med/vet med education. The thread is clearly saturated, though.

What is your professional goal within vetmed? Is it clinical or nonclinical? And can you perform the essential duties of a clinical role regardless of how you appear? If the answer is yes, can you perform these duties with minimal accommodations and do them at a comparable speed/quality as the average veterinary person? If yes, the good thing with vet school is that once they accept ya, they can’t not train you as long as you didn’t lie on your application. So they have to give you a chance to prove that you can do things just as well (or at least well enough). And once you are able to prove yourself, it will be easier to move through your career with word of mouth references. If your career aspirations are non clinical, you just need to survive school.

However, if you are someone who requires hefty accommodations to get through the program, that is legally something schools must comply with. For universities, the burden of the lengths they must go to accommodate disabilities is pretty high. A significant percentage of veterinary students have some sort of documented disability needing accommodations, so that in itself is not a big deal. But if you are someone who requires only being on your feet for no more than 5 hours a day, cannot lift more than 15lbs, etc… you may be able to get through vet school, but it may be difficult to find a suitable clinical job unless you are otherwise exceptional. I do know an exceptional new grad with significant physical disabilities who has made it work. Really smart and efficient and knowledgeable and skilled, so I would be happy to employ this individual for whatever limited workday they want to work on a part time basis. They also had a very specific population of clients they wanted to cater to, which worked for them. It took multiple extra years for them to graduate with leaves of absences and limited hours on clinics. If you can map out for yourself how you can successfully work in the clinical setting, that might work out ok. But if you don’t have a clear vision, and are hoping someone can figure it out because by law they need to accommodate disabilities to a degree, that may not work out that well.

Many (most) clinics currently don’t have the capacity to mentor new grads that don’t need any accommodations, so it would get even harder to get that mentorship if your capacity is limited. With veterinary employers, where each clinic is small and runs like a small business (to some extent even with corporate - though the bigger ones do have HR), you are likely to run into much more situations where litigation will be needed to counter overtly unlawful things. It is incredibly common for lactating moms (who could only afford to take 2-4 weeks mat leave unpaid) to be given a really hard time or denied lactation breaks, which is a federally protected right in clinical vet med practice. This is the situation when it comes to fairly minimal accommodations in the veterinary profession when a majority of the workforce is women of childbearing age. So you can imagine what that might look career wise for someone with significant accommodations. Not ok, but this is the state of the profession. You’ll want to think about if this is a fight you want to take on. Clinical vet med is in general a physically, mentally, and emotionally demanding job. While it doesn’t “have” to be as physical with accommodations, that can be really hard to come by. Easy enough to say, Dr. X always needs a skilled technician with them at all times they are working with an animal, but actually incredibly hard to do when every clinic is understaffed as is.

 

[EB73674]

I haven't specifically kept up with her, but there was a student two years ahead of me at tOSU who was in a motorized wheelchair during vet school, and she had no issues getting (I believe) a small animal job directly after graduation. I think, unfortunately, a large animal position might be hard with mobility issues, but there are plenty of other options open to you! I also know a large number of students with various physical & mental disabilities (myself included), and while things haven't been perfect for them & there are some clinicians who seem to have a chip on their shoulder about it (nothing provable, believe me we've tried), the vast vast majority of clinicians/faculty/staff/admin have been very willing to work with most students within reason.

ETA: As much as it pains me to say this, corporate practices really may be the way to go for disability things. They are much, MUCH more concerned about liability & folks interested in pursuing ADA discrimination charges, and they have much more structured HR to deal with it. Yes, HR is there to protect the company and not the employees, but there is a lot of weight in threatening legal action if denied something that you need. Larger companies can actually be held liable for discrimination & have to comply with ADA law, while smaller private practices may not meet the criteria in company size.

 

[supershorty]

Reminder to everyone to keep it civil. Tempers may get raised because of tone, but treat each other with kindness and respect.

Thank you.

 

[Musicandhorses]

Absolutely. Completely different beasts.

Yup two completely different degrees. I hate to be the bringer of bad news and I’m not in academia at the moment, but you need to have some manual ability to be able to pass through surgery as a student (with reasonable accommodations if needed). I do know personally of someone who was wheelchair bound but was able to use their hands who could get thru the DVM program. If you are a tetraplegic, well I’m not sure how you would handle doing a class that requires you to use your hands like surgery. I’m pretty sure-actually I know (i graduated 20 years ago) that there was a clause that we had to sign at school saying we had enough ability to use our hands for class for patient care. Is this discriminatory? I’m not sure. I’m not sure what the answer should be here. Plus, each year we renew veterinary licenses we are asked about our ability to do the job we do. I’m sure some people lie. Again I’m not sure what the answer is here.

In contrast

The PhD is different. We had a semi-paraplegic in a wheelchair in my lab who was a PhD student. He just asked for accommodations and because many things can be done with technology/a research assistant without much hindrance to his project, he did fine. Two different degrees entirely.

 

[Musicandhorses]

I haven't specifically kept up with her, but there was a student two years ahead of me at tOSU who was in a motorized wheelchair during vet school, and she had no issues getting (I believe) a small animal job directly after graduation. I think, unfortunately, a large animal position might be hard with mobility issues, but there are plenty of other options open to you! I also know a large number of students with various physical & mental disabilities (myself included), and while things haven't been perfect for them & there are some clinicians who seem to have a chip on their shoulder about it (nothing provable, believe me we've tried), the vast vast majority of clinicians/faculty/staff/admin have been very willing to work with most students within reason.

ETA: As much as it pains me to say this, corporate practices really may be the way to go for disability things. They are much, MUCH more concerned about liability & folks interested in pursuing ADA discrimination charges, and they have much more structured HR to deal with it. Yes, HR is there to protect the company and not the employees, but there is a lot of weight in threatening legal action if denied something that you need. Larger companies can actually be held liable for discrimination & have to comply with ADA law, while smaller private practices may not meet the criteria in company size.

Yup. They made accommodations. This is the student I mentioned above. I also know of an equine clinician who used a motorized wheelchair but she was an attending and her house officers did the ‘manual stuff’. She made it work as long as she could (until she needed to mostly retire to research due to her disease progression sadly).

 

[Musicandhorses]

In this thread I am just specifically asking for info about experiences of ableism/non-ableism/anti-ableism, which is why I am writing about these things. Suggesting that this somehow represents my personality as being someone who is putting up walls is a bit weird.

IRL, or in other places online, I don't usually bring up my disability or experiences with ableism at all, unless someone asks a question, I need to ask for an accommodation, or something is a funny story.

With respect to not getting jobs, usually I show up all bright eyed and bushy tailed, and then someone doesn't give me hours, usually without even interacting with me beyond the phone/zoom interview where they seemed excited about me (and must have been, because they hired me from that interview). Most of these jobs were, ironically, in disability support agencies/direct support professional areas (because those kinds of jobs are the most commonly available in the rural areas I have lived in when not a full time student).

Having a PhD may not help someone in vet school, but it shows admissions committees that I am able to work for 60-70 hours a week for years on end. That's all I meant by that. A vet I have talked to (who is retired) told me that specifically will be meaningful for admissions purposes (obviously not as a core thing, but as a part of the holistic evaluation).

I have an unseen disability (I’m dyslexic) which was found when I got 790 on quantitative vs 380 on verbal on my GRE for vet school. I see it as kinda funny now, but when you are called into your undergrad advisor’s office, it’s not fun. However people maybe able to see my disability with little things (rearranging numbers etc).

To answer your question: yes I’ve been discriminated against in vet med. Do I disclose it-no! And the reason is because people do have preconceived notions about you when they find out about your disability. I hide mine, and I’ve gotten better at hiding it. Did my vet school tOSU accommodate me with extra exam time? Yes. Have employers been mean to me-yes! So I do get where you’re coming from. That said, we do need the basic ability to do said job in vet med (reasonable accommodations if needed).

That said, I dont think PhDs necessarily write differently than our non-PhD colleagues. I didn’t know we had a certain writing style styoe but 🤷‍♀️And I was in medical publications for three years (hoping to get back into it) - despite my dyslexia.

 

[pp9]

If you are a tetraplegic, well I’m not sure how you would handle doing a class that requires you to use your hands like surgery. I’m pretty sure-actually I know (i graduated 20 years ago) that there was a clause that we had to sign at school saying we had enough ability to use our hands for class for patient care.

What school did you go to? I don't remember signing any such thing for Illinois. Was it specific to hand function, or a general 'you attest that you can physically do this job'?

 

[Musicandhorses]

I went to school 25 years ago. It probably has changed. I just remember checking an email box saying that we were able bodied to do surgery for that quarter and we attested to that. If there was any concern: we should go talk with student affairs.