Does Age Play a Factor in getting a Residency?

[thomasfx10]

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I am concerned about my age playing a factor when I am seeking a residency. If I get into medical school, I will be 52 when I graduate (God willing), and I hope that my age does not hinder me from the Match.

I am not looking for a specialty just FM, IM, or EM

Here is my question, will my age play a factor in getting a spot. I am currently looking at DO schools. This will allow me to apply to both Matches.

Thanks for your replies.

 

[QofQuimica]

I am concerned about my age playing a factor when I am seeking a residency. If I get into medical school, I will be 52 when I graduate (God willing), and I hope that my age does not hinder me from the Match.

I am not looking for a specialty just FM, IM, or EM

Here is my question, will my age play a factor in getting a spot. I am currently looking at DO schools. This will allow me to apply to both Matches.

Thanks for your replies.

Legally, residency programs are not supposed to discriminate based upon age. Pragmatically, residency application is a very subjective process (as is medical school admissions), and it's impossible to know for sure why a program declines to offer you an interview. I think if you go into medical school with the expectation that you will be doing one of the three year residencies (i.e., go into some type of primary care like the three specialties you listed), that is probably realistic. If you go in thinking that you will be a neurosurgeon or an interventional cardiologist, that is considerably less realistic and may not be possible. The good thing about applying for residency, however, is that you have your medical school to advise you and help you navigate the process, an advantage that many of us nontrads do not have while applying to medical school. I found it much easier to apply to residency for this reason.

Regardless, it's a bit early to worry about getting into residency before you've even applied to medical school. Best to jump one hurdle at a time, my friend. 🙂

 

[Helen Wheels]

This guy was 49 and matched into plastic surgery.

http://www.channel3000.com/education/22886942/detail.html

He obviously did better in medical school than the young 20 somethings.

Holy cow! Not only is plastics uber competitive but isn't that a 7 year residency? The dude won't even be an attending until age 56! Interesting because I heard that surgical residency programs tend to be "ageist" when picking residents.

 

[thomasfx10]

Thanks for your posts and the encouragement!

I know I should be taking one obstacle at a time but it is that little voice in my head saying "you are too old".


The story about the 49 year old medical student matching into plastics was all I needed to hear.

 

[peppy]

Even though it's not one you're currently thinking about, I can say that Psychiatry is a field that seems to welcome older applicants (even many docs from other fields changing into it as a second specialty). After all, it's not physically demanding and often having some maturity helps you interact with the patients better. 🙂

 

[mymembernames]

Even though it's not one you're currently thinking about, I can say that Psychiatry is a field that seems to welcome older applicants (even many docs from other fields changing into it as a second specialty). After all, it's not physically demanding and often having some maturity helps you interact with the patients better. 🙂

👍

 

[Law2Doc]

I am concerned about my age playing a factor when I am seeking a residency. If I get into medical school, I will be 52 when I graduate (God willing), and I hope that my age does not hinder me from the Match.

I am not looking for a specialty just FM, IM, or EM

Here is my question, will my age play a factor in getting a spot. I am currently looking at DO schools. This will allow me to apply to both Matches.

Thanks for your replies.

As Q indicated, residencies cannot legally discriminate against you for age.

However if you come across as "the old fogey" at the pre-interview dinner of a program where the 20-something year old chief residents get a vote, or if the PD has the view that X specialty is "a young man's game", or if you don't "fit the mold" for Y specialty, there are plenty of ways a program can simply decide not to rank you highly for "other reasons", and you would be none the wiser. Does this happen? Probably. Are there fields where not having the stamina of a 25 year old might make a difference? Absolutely. Are there 25 year old residents who are going to find it difficult to boss around an intern older than their dad and make their preferences known to sympathetic PDs? You bet. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try. But make sure you are being realistic. If you are a 50 year old who looks and feels his age, you probably need to be more selective as to which field to choose. By contrast, if you are in shape and fit, and able to run up 3 flights of stairs and still be the first one at the Code, and you still look 30 at 50, nobody is going to care.

 

[MrPolarZero]

I am sorry to say this, but I think age is one of the factors that medical jobs are looking at. Although you have the skills, most hospitals are still searching for younger practitioners on the field who has the ability to compete with others.

 

[DrMidlife]

I am sorry to say this, but I think age is one of the factors that medical jobs are looking at. Although you have the skills, most hospitals are still searching for younger practitioners on the field who has the ability to compete with others.

Do you even know anybody over 40? Bring it over here, little Suzie, I'll school ya.

 

[BPlaysItCool]

Intersting diversion.

I'm with Law2Doc. It about how you feel. What type of energy you project. What point in life are you. What is important to you.

They say things to us about the world being our oyster from the time we're small. Nobody wants to tell the slow, poor kid they can't be president. Or the old applicant that can't do neurosurgery. They are some people who will swim up stream the whole way. Good for them.

But it's a long way to the top if you wanna rocknroll (in med school.) It's hard work just to be average here.

And for those of us who've taking one too many punches. Who fought our last hard fight getting here. Just making it is enough.

And when that happens. And it happens to everyone eventually. You stop dreaming about being a princess. And start figuring out what will work in the long stretch of decades into 50 and 60 and beyond.

What seems cool on TV. ED, Trauma surg, etc.... well is it really that fun at 3 AM on no sleep for 2 days.

Find something that isn't boring enough to make you want to end it all. And something that gives you time to do something outside of being an uptight dork--in the relentless company of other uptight dorks.

Find that doing something you think actually accomplishes anything for a handful of patients. And you're there.​

 

[ChemMed]

You sound very sensible and realistic. Being older I know that I will not really be applying to any serious sub specialties that require more than a two year fellowship. I might do TOX. I love TOX. I want to start my life and have some financial stability and I'm alright not being rich. Age may or may not play a factor in the process. People are subjective so I'm sure a lot of it has to do with how you interview.

 

[take the shot]

As Q indicated, residencies cannot legally discriminate against you for age.

However if you come across as "the old fogey" at the pre-interview dinner of a program where the 20-something year old chief residents get a vote, or if the PD has the view that X specialty is "a young man's game", or if you don't "fit the mold" for Y specialty, there are plenty of ways a program can simply decide not to rank you highly for "other reasons", and you would be none the wiser. Does this happen? Probably. Are there fields where not having the stamina of a 25 year old might make a difference? Absolutely. Are there 25 year old residents who are going to find it difficult to boss around an intern older than their dad and make their preferences known to sympathetic PDs? You bet. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try. But make sure you are being realistic. If you are a 50 year old who looks and feels his age, you probably need to be more selective as to which field to choose. By contrast, if you are in shape and fit, and able to run up 3 flights of stairs and still be the first one at the Code, and you still look 30 at 50, nobody is going to care.

This advice is absolutely correct! I was worried that being an older med student would keep me out of a fellowship. I talked to my physician mentor and he said a plus on my side (as a very energetic, but older female) was that I wasn't going to be having any children!

 

[medcrazytrain]

I am a non-traditional (44y/o) who didn't match this year. It's not been fun. Congress doesn't understand they need to allot more funding for residency training programs, not just open new med schools. If anybody has any advice about finding a residency, believe me I'd love to hear it. All I want is FM or IM.

 

[Five0tomed68]

As Q said above, a huge factor in the residency interview process is the night before dinner. Several programs look for the residents opinion in who they think will fit in the program. Don't come off as the old guy that no one would find interesting or be able to get along with and you should be fine.

I think the specialties you are interested in shouldn't be a problem. For the most part, they are not filled with gunners. They are usually 3 year residencies. Outside of IM the schedules usually aren't as insane.

 

[Plecopotamus]

I am a non-traditional (44y/o) who didn't match this year. It's not been fun. Congress doesn't understand they need to allot more funding for residency training programs, not just open new med schools. If anybody has any advice about finding a residency, believe me I'd love to hear it. All I want is FM or IM.

I am very sorry to hear that you did not match. I cannot imagine the feeling. I lived with a student last year who did not match and it was devastating to see.

However, are you reviving a 2 year old thread to insinuate that you didn't match because of your age? I'm a nontrad with plenty of friends across the country in their 40s who matched this year or last. Failing to match to FM or IM is not from being 44, and if unfounded, it's not very nice to give that impression to older pre-meds who are coming here to figure out if this is a realistic option.

Can you put your application in context if you're going to claim this is age based: you went to a good school? had good board scores? passed Steps on first attempt? are a US citizen? performed well in rotations? didn't act weird in interviews or pre-interview dinners? didn't regionally over-restrict your residency applications?

 

[Legally Insane]

I believe that your age will be taken into account, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on you. A person who has spent his/her years building upon positive life experiences can use that wealth of experiences to their advantage in residency, and I believe such a background is seen as adventageous by most programs. On the other hand, a person who has spent his/her years accumulating the baggage of negative experiences and who has become cynical and bitter brings that negative baggage with them and is seen as someone to avoid by most programs. I have been fortunate enough to be able to project the former and matched in a FM program in the Dallas area this month at the age of 54. From all accounts, the program was happy to have me because of what I brought to the table with respect to my experience/age. To the OP, when applying to medical school, explore schools who are offering three year programs for primary care/FM. I went through Texas Tech's FMAT (Family Medicine Accelerated Track) program and am graduating in three years (otherwise I would have been 55 and entitled to the IHOP senior discount when entering residency). Being able to shave off even one year is significant for late comers such as us. In the end, you will find that most people will admire the courage it took for you to walk away from your former life and embark on the arduous journey that is medicine. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Five0tomed68]

As Q said above, a huge factor in the residency interview process is the night before dinner. Several programs look for the residents opinion in who they think will fit in the program. Don't come off as the old guy that no one would find interesting or be able to get along with and you should be fine.

I think the specialties you are interested in shouldn't be a problem. For the most part, they are not filled with gunners. They are usually 3 year residencies. Outside of IM the schedules usually aren't as insane.

I missed the fact this was a very old thread. Reference not matching, your step scores would help reveal if there was an issue.

 

[medcrazytrain]

As Q said above, a huge factor in the residency interview process is the night before dinner. Several programs look for the residents opinion in who they think will fit in the program. Don't come off as the old guy that no one would find interesting or be able to get along with and you should be fine.

I think the specialties you are interested in shouldn't be a problem. For the most part, they are not filled with gunners. They are usually 3 year residencies. Outside of IM the schedules usually aren't as insane.

Thanks FiveOtomed68. I appreciate your quick response. One piece of advice I'd like to share with everyone for interviews: I listened to others when I went on my interviews and pinned up and back my red hair, even made it darker. One PD remarked that I didn't look like my picture. It was because someone told me if I want to be taken seriously, pin up my hair - also that my hair was "Too much of a statement." I will never do it again. Be who you are. I have very pretty, memorable red hair and it is part of me.

As for the dinners the night before, I usually have a good time because I love people. Sitting down with a group of people I don't know is actually fun and interesting. For next application season, I'll be ready for them. Hair is back the way it was, going to start working out to feel good and confident and gonna get back to my true medcrazytrain ways!

Has anyone had any luck with the Residencyswap.org website to find vacancies? They charge $90 for 3 months. I think that's a bit steep.

 

[medcrazytrain]

I am very sorry to hear that you did not match. I cannot imagine the feeling. I lived with a student last year who did not match and it was devastating to see.

However, are you reviving a 2 year old thread to insinuate that you didn't match because of your age? I'm a nontrad with plenty of friends across the country in their 40s who matched this year or last. Failing to match to FM or IM is not from being 44, and if unfounded, it's not very nice to give that impression to older pre-meds who are coming here to figure out if this is a realistic option.

Can you put your application in context if you're going to claim this is age based: you went to a good school? had good board scores? passed Steps on first attempt? are a US citizen? performed well in rotations? didn't act weird in interviews or pre-interview dinners? didn't regionally over-restrict your residency applications?

I am a US citizen - born here, no I did not pass Step 1 on first attempt nor Step 2. I feel at this point maybe I should just give up. I've got my MD now and no one can take it away from me. I'm not stupid I just don't do well on standardized tests. If you put a real patient in front of me I can tell you what's wrong and how to proceed. Very frustrating.

 

[Plecopotamus]

I am a US citizen - born here, no I did not pass Step 1 on first attempt nor Step 2. I feel at this point maybe I should just give up. I've got my MD now and no one can take it away from me. I'm not stupid I just don't do well on standardized tests. If you put a real patient in front of me I can tell you what's wrong and how to proceed. Very frustrating.

Thanks FiveOtomed68. I appreciate your quick response. One piece of advice I'd like to share with everyone for interviews: I listened to others when I went on my interviews and pinned up and back my red hair, even made it darker. One PD remarked that I didn't look like my picture. It was because someone told me if I want to be taken seriously, pin up my hair - also that my hair was "Too much of a statement." I will never do it again. Be who you are. I have very pretty, memorable red hair and it is part of me.

Has anyone had any luck with the Residencyswap.org website to find vacancies? They charge $90 for 3 months. I think that's a bit steep.

So your match outcome was not really age related, but that's a good thing -- you can't change your age, but you can change other parts of your application. Has your school given you any advice regarding how to proceed from here & in general do they give good advising?
Things that come to my mind:
-Have you looked at programs that offer positions outside of the match?
-I think you might benefit from the AOA/ACGME residency merger, b/c as an MD it will bring some new programs into your potential application list.
-Are you taking step 3? I don't have any idea how advisable this is, but I know that FMGs sometimes do it prior to residency, BUT, I wonder if programs are worried that you won't pass step 3. I'd imagine they'd be less reticent to take you if you'd passed Step 3, b/c then they know they won't have trouble promoting you to PGY2 after intern year.
-How many interviews did you get each year you applied? It sounds like you're hanging a lot of weight on your hair (maybe that's valid if you dyed it a very unnatural looking color) and age (which is a non-issue), but if you're not getting interviews then it's clearly not the issue. Assuming it was a normal, human color, maybe it's better to assume that and age were not the problem so you focus on more productive ways to strengthen your application.
-What are you doing between interview seasons?

With regards to Residency swap, have you asked in the residency forums? There is a general issues section and a spot where people also sometimes post vacancies/desired swaps. I imagine someone there might be more likely to have checked out that website than those of us on a pre-med forum.

Good luck.

 

[chemhead123]

I think it might for ones that are significantly more than 3 or 4 years...with nero which is what 7-9 years, if you are going in as a 33 or 34 year old, your effective career is significantly shorter than a doc than a 25 or 26 year old...

 

[mulberry]

I guy from my school graduated at 52-53. He applied to ~250 FM/IM programs. He only interviewed at 2 programs and ranked 2 programs. He had solid board scores and has an awesome personality so it was clearly his age that brought down his # of interviews.

 

[Rocketdog]

I'll add something here: It's easy for some to say " Oh I know this one guy who did X" and this other person did just the opposite in the same circumstances! There will always be those rare circumstances where you have heard this and that. Until YOU have experienced X with your own unique attributes/ scores, what have you, there really shouldn't be much worry! Just because someone didn't match doesn't mean they should "hang it up" or anything of the sort because that only shows others you are a quitter.

premed....OMG I'm going to do it....
Med school....OMG I'm actually going to get to do it.....
Graduation.....OMG I'm glad it's over......
Residency......OMG I'm actually getting paid to do it...
being a Dr...OMG I actually did it....

Going to quit after all that work?.....that would be a very unwise choice! Why get fitted for a tux if you aren't going to the dance?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I am concerned about my age playing a factor when I am seeking a residency. If I get into medical school, I will be 52 when I graduate (God willing), and I hope that my age does not hinder me from the Match.

I am not looking for a specialty just FM, IM, or EM

Here is my question, will my age play a factor in getting a spot. I am currently looking at DO schools. This will allow me to apply to both Matches.

Thanks for your replies.

EM is really easy to burn out. Being 52 will make things worse. I would strongly recommend against it.

Going to quit after all that work?.....that would be a very unwise choice! Why get fitted for a tux if you aren't going to the dance?

Some people just like the chase.

 

[medcrazytrain]

So your match outcome was not really age related, but that's a good thing -- you can't change your age, but you can change other parts of your application. Has your school given you any advice regarding how to proceed from here & in general do they give good advising?
Things that come to my mind:
-Have you looked at programs that offer positions outside of the match?
-I think you might benefit from the AOA/ACGME residency merger, b/c as an MD it will bring some new programs into your potential application list.
-Are you taking step 3? I don't have any idea how advisable this is, but I know that FMGs sometimes do it prior to residency, BUT, I wonder if programs are worried that you won't pass step 3. I'd imagine they'd be less reticent to take you if you'd passed Step 3, b/c then they know they won't have trouble promoting you to PGY2 after intern year.
-How many interviews did you get each year you applied? It sounds like you're hanging a lot of weight on your hair (maybe that's valid if you dyed it a very unnatural looking color) and age (which is a non-issue), but if you're not getting interviews then it's clearly not the issue. Assuming it was a normal, human color, maybe it's better to assume that and age were not the problem so you focus on more productive ways to strengthen your application.
-What are you doing between interview seasons?

With regards to Residency swap, have you asked in the residency forums? There is a general issues section and a spot where people also sometimes post vacancies/desired swaps. I imagine someone there might be more likely to have checked out that website than those of us on a pre-med forum.

Good luck.

Thanks for the response Plecopotamus, you've provided some valuable input. I was not aware the AOA and ACGME had decided to merge late Feb 2014. This will open up many new residency programs for us M.D.'s.

Question about Step 3: are you sure residency programs cannot promote you to PGY2 if you haven't passed Step 3? I know a 4th year in Psych residency program that still has not taken Step 3. Maybe it's just true for psych.

 

[medcrazytrain]

I'll add something here: It's easy for some to say " Oh I know this one guy who did X" and this other person did just the opposite in the same circumstances! There will always be those rare circumstances where you have heard this and that. Until YOU have experienced X with your own unique attributes/ scores, what have you, there really shouldn't be much worry! Just because someone didn't match doesn't mean they should "hang it up" or anything of the sort because that only shows others you are a quitter.

premed....OMG I'm going to do it....
Med school....OMG I'm actually going to get to do it.....
Graduation.....OMG I'm glad it's over......
Residency......OMG I'm actually getting paid to do it...
being a Dr...OMG I actually did it....

Going to quit after all that work?.....that would be a very unwise choice! Why get fitted for a tux if you aren't going to the dance?

I hear you, Rocketdog and I have ALWAYS said, "There is no quit in me" but not being able to match twice is devastating to say the least. I think I would rather have had a finger cut off than not match. It's like being knocked out by Chuck Liddell...twice in front of all your friends. It makes you question every aspect of your worth. I am blessed because my school is not going to quit on me. It's time I find some creative answer to this puzzling question such as the AOA, ACGME merger, which I didn't know about, or asking if I can "tag along" with the IM or FM interns, be treated as one of them and show I can do the same job and work just as hard. Hey, I'd be getting paid literally half of their wage to do the same job. This is why I am on here asking for ideas. The creative mind can outsmart the system. We are all exceptionally intelligent on this forum. What better place to fish.

 

[primadonna22274]

I'm 40 and matched to my #1. Had great interviews and felt like I could have matched anywhere on my rank list (I ranked 9 allo FM, IM and one med-psych). I went for fit over specialty per se as I wanted to stay in state and my interests could be achieved by any of those residencies. I experienced no age discrimination except perhaps from the programs that didn't invite me to interview--no big deal. I can pass for early 30s and maybe that helps. I'm sure solid board scores, great letters and an interesting CV pre-med school helped a lot more.
I feel for the woman who didn't match but I must agree that the board failures are a huge red flag.

 

[medcrazytrain]

EM is really easy to burn out. Being 52 will make things worse. I would strongly recommend against it.


Some people just like the chase.

 

[medcrazytrain]

okay I just found this info on: http://www.medschool.lsuhsc.edu/pathology/cytopathology/Instructions for physicians.pdf
It applies to LSU but looks like it's across all residency programs.

Applicant Who Does Not Take and Pass USMLE Step 3
The applicant who does not take and pass the USMLE Step 3 may apply
for a PGY2 permit for up to 12 months. This has the effect of providing
applicants with a 24-month period during the PGY1 and PGY2 years to
take and pass the USMLE Step 3. The applicant who has not taken and
passed the USMLE Step 3 prior to the expiration of the PGY1 or PGY2
permit may not be licensed by the LSBME until such time that the
applicant has taken and passed the USMLE Step 3. The LSBME does not
issue a PGY3 permit in these cases. As such, there is generally no permit
or license issued and immediately available to the applicant who has not
taken and passed the USMLE Step 3 when the PGY2 permit expires.

Four Strikes and You’re Out (applies to USMLE Steps 2 and 3)
Applicants are limited to 4 attempts to take and pass the USMLE Step 2.
Applicants are limited to 4 attempts to take and pass the USLME Step 3.
An applicant who fails USMLE Step 3 after the third attempt must take 6
months of approved training before permitted to take Step 3 for the fourth
and final time. This applies to all examinations (FLEX, SPEX, NBME,
NBOME, COMLEX-USA, or a combination thereof).

SO in effect you hold up your whole program by not passing step 3. Your PD will have trouble accepting new residents until you pass it and move on. It makes them look bad and can also kill the residency program. I've concluded that what I need to do is study very hard, take and pass Step 3 before applying again.

 

[Plecopotamus]

Thanks for the response Plecopotamus, you've provided some valuable input. I was not aware the AOA and ACGME had decided to merge late Feb 2014. This will open up many new residency programs for us M.D.'s.

Question about Step 3: are you sure residency programs cannot promote you to PGY2 if you haven't passed Step 3? I know a 4th year in Psych residency program that still has not taken Step 3. Maybe it's just true for psych.

My impression is that step 3 is required at many if not most programs by the end of PGY1 so that they identify early anybody who will need remediation to ensure that passing happens in a timely fashion as you will be unable to obtain a license to practice without it. There are also state specific requirements as to when each type of grad (MD/DO/FMG) needs to take step 3, and how many times you can retake it -- note that some states have limitations on the number of sittings for all step exams (like no more than 10 attempts for all Step exams combined), so be careful if that's a state you want to be in. I don't know much about this, but I think there might be states where you have to be in a residency to take step 3 . . . the rules seem very complicated.

EDIT: oops. I guess you found such info before I posted it.

I also don't know much about reapplying to residency, but I imagine you need to be doing something productive in your year off.

If you didn't get many interviews, you may want to strongly consider whether any of your LORs is a problem. I suspect your outcome can be entirely explained by initially non-passing your boards. However, unless you had to do multiple retakes or aimed too high, I'd be surprised if low tier programs didn't at least interview you... there are definitely people online who failed Step exams (even both of them) and are FMGs with residency spots.

 

[medcrazytrain]

My impression is that step 3 is required at many if not most programs by the end of PGY1 so that they identify early anybody who will need remediation to ensure that passing happens in a timely fashion as you will be unable to obtain a license to practice without it. There are also state specific requirements as to when each type of grad (MD/DO/FMG) needs to take step 3, and how many times you can retake it -- note that some states have limitations on the number of sittings for all step exams (like no more than 10 attempts for all Step exams combined), so be careful if that's a state you want to be in. I don't know much about this, but I think there might be states where you have to be in a residency to take step 3 . . . the rules seem very complicated.

EDIT: oops. I guess you found such info before I posted it.

I also don't know much about reapplying to residency, but I imagine you need to be doing something productive in your year off.

If you didn't get many interviews, you may want to strongly consider whether any of your LORs is a problem. I suspect your outcome can be entirely explained by initially non-passing your boards. However, unless you had to do multiple retakes or aimed too high, I'd be surprised if low tier programs didn't at least interview you... there are definitely people online who failed Step exams (even both of them) and are FMGs with residency spots.

Okay...during my year "off" I will be doing clinical work in every specialty, complements of the kind Dean's staff of my school - and getting paid for it! The work is thankfully flexible so that I may spend lots of time studying for Step 3.

Now --- onto Step 3 threads to find the best materials to prepare for it. I think a good start would be USMLE world. Thanks for all your supportive posts, Plecopotamus. You've given me piece of mind and a way forward. I WILL make it through this medical madness and succeed!

 

[Plecopotamus]

Good Luck!

 

[Law2Doc]

I guy from my school graduated at 52-53. He applied to ~250 FM/IM programs. He only interviewed at 2 programs and ranked 2 programs. He had solid board scores and has an awesome personality so it was clearly his age that brought down his # of interviews.

You don't necessarilly know what the PDs saw. Maybe he has lukewarm evals, letters. Maybe he comes off badly in his personal statement. There are lots of ways to screw up this process unrelated to age, board scores. In general if you choose one factor and decide that that's reason someone didn't make the cut, you are going to be wrong more times than right -- it's a multifactorial process. Anyone with the binary attitude that X board score should equal Y interviews is going to be sadly disappointed.

From my experience age doesn't come up explicitly in making residency decisions. But what the residents think of an applicant at the pre-interview dinner, and notions of whether a person will "fit in" with the current residents loom large. So if you are a 50 year old who meshes well with 25 year olds over beer and nachos you are fine. If you come across like the "damn kids get off my lawn" standoff-ish old person, not so much. Project your inner child.

 

[QofQuimica]

You don't necessarilly know what the PDs saw. Maybe he has lukewarm evals, letters. Maybe he comes off badly in his personal statement. There are lots of ways to screw up this process unrelated to age, board scores. In general if you choose one factor and decide that that's reason someone didn't make the cut, you are going to be wrong more times than right -- it's a multifactorial process. Anyone with the binary attitude that X board score should equal Y interviews is going to be sadly disappointed.

From my experience age doesn't come up explicitly in making residency decisions. But what the residents think of an applicant at the pre-interview dinner, and notions of whether a person will "fit in" with the current residents loom large. So if you are a 50 year old who meshes well with 25 year olds over beer and nachos you are fine. If you come across like the "damn kids get off my lawn" standoff-ish old person, not so much. Project your inner child.

Agree with this.

medcrazytrain, the problem isn't your age, and it's certainly not something as ridiculous as the color or style of your hair. The problem is that you failed Step 1, which is *the* single most important factor that PDs use to select future residents, and then you failed Step 2 (hopefully just CK and not CS!), which is a test that many people who do poorly on Step 1 use as a way to try to redeem themselves. I agree that doing whatever is necessary to ensure that you pass Step 3 the first time around is wise (and if you can do it and have score in hand before you re-enter the match, so much the better).

Also, your whole residency class wouldn't get held back if you failed your Step 3 any more than your whole med school class got held back when you failed your Step 1/2. Everyone gets promoted or not based on their own efforts and performance, not as a class. What would happen is that everyone else would get promoted without you, and you just wouldn't finish/graduate from residency with the rest of your class.

Edit: did I read correctly that you have now gone through the match twice? As in, you are not a graduating senior this year? That's a big problem too. The farther out you are from med school, the less desirable you are to PDs versus fresh med school seniors, especially if you haven't been doing clinical work in the interim. What did you do during your last gap year? I'm glad to hear that your school is willing to work with you, because you really need to have a plan in place (and hopefully some prominent faculty willing to make calls to PDs on your behalf) if you're going to have much chance of securing a slot. You might consider seeing if someone can cajole the PD at your own med school's program into taking you. Because if your own med school isn't willing to stand by you....yikes. 🙁

 

[SpaceLeftBlank]

The applicant who does not take and pass the USMLE Step 3 may apply
for a PGY2 permit for up to 12 months.

That probably isn't universal. My state won't even let you take Step 3 until you're through 6 months of a residency, and requires two years of residency for the unrestricted license. My wife put off taking it until her fifth year of her general surgery residency (and passed) and that was within the last couple years.

 

[petyr_baelish]

I believe that your age will be taken into account, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on you. A person who has spent his/her years building upon positive life experiences can use that wealth of experiences to their advantage in residency, and I believe such a background is seen as adventageous by most programs. On the other hand, a person who has spent his/her years accumulating the baggage of negative experiences and who has become cynical and bitter brings that negative baggage with them and is seen as someone to avoid by most programs. I have been fortunate enough to be able to project the former and matched in a FM program in the Dallas area this month at the age of 54. From all accounts, the program was happy to have me because of what I brought to the table with respect to my experience/age. To the OP, when applying to medical school, explore schools who are offering three year programs for primary care/FM. I went through Texas Tech's FMAT (Family Medicine Accelerated Track) program and am graduating in three years (otherwise I would have been 55 and entitled to the IHOP senior discount when entering residency). Being able to shave off even one year is significant for late comers such as us. In the end, you will find that most people will admire the courage it took for you to walk away from your former life and embark on the arduous journey that is medicine. I wish you the best of luck.

I love your blog!

So the FMAT program does not lock you into Lubbock for 6 years? It's cool that you were able to graduate in 3 years plus end up in Dallas.

 

[Legally Insane]

I love your blog!

So the FMAT program does not lock you into Lubbock for 6 years? It's cool that you were able to graduate in 3 years plus end up in Dallas.

FMAT was designed to keep the participants in house, but they made an exception for me because my wife is employed in Dallas. Now that the mold has been broken, I think that others may leave the nest as well. Thank you for your kind words about my blog. I have enjoyed writing it over the past few years.

 

[LupaCupcake]

I met a woman that bikes 10 miles a week on the beach, kayaks 1-2x a week, travels to NY and back every few months (from NC), is a CEO, has a masters degree, happens to be a millionaire and you know how old she is? 63. She is my mother's CEO and when I met her I thought for sure she was in her 40's. I went wide eyed when I heard she was 63 and the eyes stayed wide when I found out she went from being homeless and abused with no education in her young twenties to being a millionaire in her sixties. She never let people tell her that her dreams were too big or that she needed to act more her age, she goes after what she wants and she loves life. Who cares what age you are, it is about how you present yourself.

 

[Bluefishlover]

You don't necessarilly know what the PDs saw. Maybe he has lukewarm evals, letters. Maybe he comes off badly in his personal statement. There are lots of ways to screw up this process unrelated to age, board scores. In general if you choose one factor and decide that that's reason someone didn't make the cut, you are going to be wrong more times than right -- it's a multifactorial process. Anyone with the binary attitude that X board score should equal Y interviews is going to be sadly disappointed.

From my experience age doesn't come up explicitly in making residency decisions. But what the residents think of an applicant at the pre-interview dinner, and notions of whether a person will "fit in" with the current residents loom large. So if you are a 50 year old who meshes well with 25 year olds over beer and nachos you are fine. If you come across like the "damn kids get off my lawn" standoff-ish old person, not so much. Project your inner child.

Graduated medical school at 52. During a Residency interview in FM asked straight out "why they should give one of their slots to someone who likely had fewer practice years ahead then a younger applicant. Actually they were more explicit then that. They said why should we give a slot to someone who will likely practice 15 years maybe 20 years instead of to someone who has 40 years ahead of them? " While the question was disturbing at least they were honest enough to state it explicitly as compared to the other interviews. I came in with a PHD and had done research for 25 years so had not been just sitting around. Does age play a role? You bet it does!

 

[worfndata]

Many people say well you will only have x years to contribute to the field of medicine. Shouldn't we instead invest in someone younger who can contribute longer? I say, have those traditional docs who graduate at 26/27 who now sell supplements on tv or put their name one vitamin bottles really made a contribution to medicine?

 

[QofQuimica]

Many people say well you will only have x years to contribute to the field of medicine. Shouldn't we instead invest in someone younger who can contribute longer? I say, have those traditional docs who graduate at 26/27 who now sell supplements on tv or put their name one vitamin bottles really made a contribution to medicine?

Be careful saying that. You never know what your interviewer may be doing in his or her spare time. One of my attendings from med school writes books and promotes various products on television. I doubt this individual has the time or inclination to interview applicants, but it could happen.

If asked this question, it's best to avoid being defensive and to answer in a positive manner. I'd argue in favor of saying something to the effect that none of us knows how much time we have to contribute, and the important thing is to make a significant contribution in the time that we have.

You have to understand too that this phenomenon of older nontrads going to med school is fairly recent. Many of your senior attendings who went straight through from college have a hard time wrapping their minds around the idea that someone could want to go through medical training ten or twenty years beyond the point when most people do it. It wasn't done during their generation, and they don't understand why an otherwise perfectly rational-seeming middle aged person would want to subject themselves to this training at that stage in life.

Even those of us who have gone through the process as nontrads ourselves would want to know that an older nontrad applicant had really thought things through. Being awake for 30 straight hours at age 18 was a cinch for most of us. It's not so easy to bounce back from that when you're 40. I describe my post-call days as feeling like being hungover without having had any fun the night before, or like being jet-lagged without the vacation. I saw someone in one of the physician forums refer to their post-call days as "grumpy days," which is also a pretty apt description.

It's also true that older people learn and process new information more slowly on average compared to younger people. Now you don't have to be a genius to get into (and through) medical school or residency. But a certain mental plasticity is needed, and older nontrads need to be aware going in that they may have to alter their study habits from what worked for them when they were in college ten or twenty years ago. In particular, cramming is unlikely to be a successful study method for the middle aged learner.

All of this being said, an older nontrad with the right attitude can definitely be successful in medicine (and as an applicant). But a nontrad with a chip on their shoulder about people questioning their age will only confirm some people's preconceived notions that they aren't going to be part of the team.

 

[worfndata]

that was meant as a way to think about it in ones own mind not argue with people. i r not that dumb.

 

[QofQuimica]

that was meant as a way to think about it in ones own mind not argue with people. i r not that dumb.

I'd argue you shouldn't even think about it that way in your own mind. Besides the misfortune that a slip of tongue would be, it's kind of hypocritical, isn't it? You don't want people to judge you as "wasting" your MD/DO because you're probably not going to practice as many years as a younger person, but it's ok for you to judge people who sell supplements or vitamins as "wasting" theirs?

 

[worfndata]

Yes its perfectly ok to judge because no one is going to argue that selling supplements is in fact a valued use of an MD degree. What would happen if an applicant at one of their interviews proudly stated the reason he/she is going to med school is to one day endorse supplements for a living? Would they get accepted anywhere? Not likely. Bottom line is no one can say for certain what kind of value any physician is going to bring. Just because you have 10 more years to practice than a non trad does not mean you will actually bring more value. Some will retire early, some will never care about their patients and some will try and make as much money not by practicing but by selling their name. An excellent doctor might do more good in 10 yrs than an average one will do in 30. And if some admission folks want to be near sighted, practice ageism and think in terms of practice years no one can stop them obviously.