Does it really matter where you get your PhD? (And questions about NYC programs)

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newyork-3

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I am eventually applying to Clinical Psych PhD programs. I am from New York City and would really like to stay in the area for grad school, but the clinical psych programs in NYC are not "top-tier"(Teacher's College--Columbia Univ, CUNY-City College, Fordham, the New School for Social Research, etc.). Would it really hurt me/my future career to attend one of these programs instead of a higher-ranked one? Are these programs looked down upon?

Does it really matter where you get your PhD? Feel free to answer this question even if you know nothing about NYC programs!

(Just a side note so that I don't get attacked by commenters telling me not to restrict myself geographically--I am planning to apply to programs outside of NYC too, but would choose a program in New York if accepted)

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There really isn't a ranking for grad programs. I would not attend a program that doesn't have a history of APA accreditation, 80-100% internship match rates, and high EPPP pass rates. Once those criteria are met, it's really more about how well a specific program will prepare you in your particular area of interest.
 
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What do you want to do after?

I am interested in practice and, as of now, I don't plan on working in academia. But I also don't want to make a decision that will cut off career options in the future/severely limit what I can do
 
Your personal training choices will affect you more than the reputation any of those programs. Practice is fine academia is less likely (check out Stony Brook for a more academic focused program). Personally, I find that NYC programs have too many hoops for me (interviews and match for externship, etc)
 
I don't know how "top tier" is operationalized anymore. Fordham is a strong program. I know multiple folks who did quite well for themselves (internship, post doc) coming out of there. Yeshiva (PhD) is another. CUNY is particularly good for neuropsych, especially now that it's accredited; I'm less familiar with the other specialties. I have some colleagues from New School and Columbia as well- all successful. So yes, it might matter where you go, but it arguably matters more what you do, personally.

New York is also quite insular. Externs become interns become postdocs. So if your long-term goal is to stay in New York, finding a good match there might be preferable. But the key term there is "good match"!
 
I've completed all my doctoral training in NYC (externships, internships, postdoc), and worked in 4 of the 5 Burroughs. There are plenty of reputable programs here that will lead you to fruitful careers. Sure, you may not be working with Edna Foa, but there are plenty of researchers here who are doing novel and interesting work (I have been two degrees off from Aaron Beck throughout my training, meaning two of my mentors were trained by him; and actually, two degrees of separation from Foa, too).

NYC is also welcoming to clinical/theoretical orientations. I like to say that I got a firm base in psychodynamics but work with more cognitive behavioral psychotherapies now. And my psychodynamic background is solid for case conceptualizations, and certainly for building a therapeutic alliance, which makes service delivery work quite well. I'm generally confident that my research participants and/or patients will adhere to the full treatment protocols, and I attribute much of that to keenly understanding the complexity of each individual, and then, the confidence to believe I can truly help in whatever way the patient & I decide. (I owe that confidence to my training, as I'm sure others have similar feelings for their programs.)

One of my supervisors (who is an analyst, and treated one of Freud's former patients...REALLY. All parties involved are now elderly or deceased) says that "psychodynamics permits you know the patient, not the diagnosis." I think this is a helpful perspective, and as long as you're open to other opinions/orientations in training, you'll discover what suits you best. In NYC, through placements sites, fellow colleagues, multicultural/diverse populations served, you can't really beat the training...unless you're already super-focused and land one of those top tier programs in another geographically location...and after then, I'm sure the experiences are comparable, as we meet in the middle with those folks, too, at some points in practice.

Oh! And I recommend staying away from or really understanding what you're getting into with the New School (they have great researchers, but look at the average time for completion of the doctoral degree...it's ridiculously longer than it needs to be - and I've heard less than positive stuff about them accepting applicants into the masters program but declining them to go further into the doctoral programs...seems like their pattern). Check out the internship match rates, and definitely do not settle for a non-APA approved program...most in NYC are already, so are the training sites.

Good luck!:luck:

Edit: My point of the gauche name dropping (kudos for me...I know, I know) is that here in NYC, you can be exposed to high-levels of training from multiple pioneers. And it's quite fun to read a seminal text, and then, have that author present at your program's colloquium, or you make a fool of yourself to introduce yourself to Otto Kernberg at grand rounds. Gives context and makes things a little more exciting.

So to answer your question: @newyork-3, No, you will not be looked down upon; likely contrariwise, you may be elevated by training here in the city due to your multiple points of contact. And we don't have any online programs that I know of, and the for-profit, expensive/no funding programs clearly state this on their websites...so you'll know where you get a full-ride scholarship versus $180K in debt (most programs here are in between). Also, when looking up Teacher's College, note that it's a counseling psych doctorate, so here you also have the option of pursing PhDs, PsyDs in both counseling and clinical psychology (CUNY has several non-clinical doctorates in psychology, like experimental, etc.). You can search old SDN threads for lists of NYC programs, and even discussions about differences between PhD & PsyD (hint: both degrees are similar if the programs are reputable), and counseling vs. clinical programs (also, quite similar with nuances in training and populations served). Hope this helps.
 
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I also did the bulk of my training in NY (NY-based graduate program, externships, internship) and obtained a highly competitive postdoc position outside of NY. I'm now in the midst of applying for clinical positions back in NY and have had a good number of interviews so far. Judging from the interviews, the places I applied to were familiar with the training my graduate program offered and that reputation was what got me that far in the job application process. If you want to eventually practice in NY, I definitely think going to a well-regarded program in NY (not necessarily highly ranked in that US Census book) would work well for you.
 
I've completed all my doctoral training in NYC (externships, internships, postdoc), and worked in 4 of the 5 Burroughs. There are plenty of reputable programs here that will lead you to fruitful careers. Sure, you may not be working with Edna Foa, but there are plenty of researchers here who are doing novel and interesting work (I have been two degrees off from Aaron Beck throughout my training, meaning two of my mentors were trained by him; and actually, two degrees of separation from Foa, too).

NYC is also welcoming to clinical/theoretical orientations. I like to say that I got a firm base in psychodynamics but work with more cognitive behavioral psychotherapies now. And my psychodynamic background is solid for case conceptualizations, and certainly for building a therapeutic alliance, which makes service delivery work quite well. I'm generally confident that my research participants and/or patients will adhere to the full treatment protocols, and I attribute much of that to keenly understanding the complexity of each individual, and then, the confidence to believe I can truly help in whatever way the patient & I decide. (I owe that confidence to my training, as I'm sure others have similar feelings for their programs.)

One of my supervisors (who is an analyst, and treated one of Freud's former patients...REALLY. All parties involved are now elderly or deceased) says that "psychodynamics permits you know the patient, not the diagnosis." I think this is a helpful perspective, and as long as you're open to other opinions/orientations in training, you'll discover what suits you best. In NYC, through placements sites, fellow colleagues, multicultural/diverse populations served, you can't really beat the training...unless you're already super-focused and land one of those top tier programs in another geographically location...and after then, I'm sure the experiences are comparable, as we meet in the middle with those folks, too, at some points in practice.

Oh! And I recommend staying away from or really understanding what you're getting into with the New School (they have great researchers, but look at the average time for completion of the doctoral degree...it's ridiculously longer than it needs to be - and I've heard less than positive stuff about them accepting applicants into the masters program but declining them to go further into the doctoral programs...seems like their pattern). Check out the internship match rates, and definitely do not settle for a non-APA approved program...most in NYC are already, so are the training sites.

Good luck!:luck:

Edit: My point of the gauche name dropping (kudos for me...I know, I know) is that here in NYC, you can be exposed to high-levels of training from multiple pioneers. And it's quite fun to read a seminal text, and then, have that author present at your program's colloquium, or you make a fool of yourself to introduce yourself to Otto Kernberg at grand rounds. Gives context and makes things a little more exciting.

So to answer your question: @newyork-3, No, you will not be looked down upon; likely contrariwise, you may be elevated by training here in the city due to your multiple points of contact. And we don't have any online programs that I know of, and the for-profit, expensive/no funding programs clearly state this on their websites...so you'll know where you get a full-ride scholarship versus $180K in debt (most programs here are in between). Also, when looking up Teacher's College, note that it's a counseling psych doctorate, so here you also have the option of pursing PhDs, PsyDs in both counseling and clinical psychology (CUNY has several non-clinical doctorates in psychology, like experimental, etc.). You can search old SDN threads for lists of NYC programs, and even discussions about differences between PhD & PsyD (hint: both degrees are similar if the programs are reputable), and counseling vs. clinical programs (also, quite similar with nuances in training and populations served). Hope this helps.


It sounds like you have had a remarkably positive and fruitful experience. Would you mind sharing where you got your doctoral degree? Or if you prefer you can PM me.
I attended a psychodynamic program for my masters and am looking to apply for Clinical PhDs in the NYC area as well. Other than a good match research wise I would definitely want a school that has a mentorship program style and it sounds like you got that!!
 
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