Does the staggering debt ever worry you?

[Helen Wheels]

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I know when I was an undergrad a long time ago and 18-21 years old I worried a little about the student loans I was taking out... but not much. Now, I find as a very nontrad soon-to-be med student I am feeling stressed about the debt. I guess getting the financial aid letter from my school really made it sink in. Holy cow that is a lot of money and the majority of the money I am borrowing will start accruing interest immediately. Being older and from a very modest background I am starting to worry about this. How do you guys handle this/calm yourself down?

 

[JKinSC]

You can use it as extra motivation to do really well. How the hell else are you gonna pay all that back?!🙄

 

[Helen Wheels]

Well, that is one of my thoughts on sleepless nights... if I flunk out I will be in big trouble because I will never be able to pay this back...

 

[drgioiadds]

I have similar thoughts. Being 35 I'm hardly a spring chicken!! It will be difficult going from making a decent income to being 300k in debt!! I think its worth it if you will be doing something you truly love. The debt will get paid off. I'm just at the point of finishing up dental school loans to maybe start the process again!

 

[mauberley]

I know when I was an undergrad a long time ago and 18-21 years old I worried a little about the student loans I was taking out... but not much. Now, I find as a very nontrad soon-to-be med student I am feeling stressed about the debt. I guess getting the financial aid letter from my school really made it sink in. Holy cow that is a lot of money and the majority of the money I am borrowing will start accruing interest immediately. Being older and from a very modest background I am starting to worry about this. How do you guys handle this/calm yourself down?

I try to remind myself why I'm doing this. It helps when I have a sucky day at work. 😉

 

[DrMidlife]

I do two things with this.

1. I pay close attention to any and all programs for paying off student loans. IBR, consolidation, service repayment, etc. Knowing there are a lot of ways to attack the problem in residency & beyond helps me not panic. Also, by looking into repayment issues, I understood why private loans are a problem. www.finaid.org is a pretty good place to start.

2. Whenever I see in the news media that average med student debt is $100k or $150k, I respond with a better number, backed by data from the MSAR. $200k to $300k is the new normal. Also I point out that the range of 0 to $500k (include undergrad debt) is more informative than the average, which includes a lot of zeros (parents, military etc).

Best of luck to you.

 

[Eik Ooc]

You may feel more in control of your financial future if you put everything into a spreadsheet: estimated future income, debt, and investments. Project it out twenty or so years. The more data you have the better off you'll be and the better financial plan you can establish.

 

[BPlaysItCool]

I do two things with this.

1. I pay close attention to any and all programs for paying off student loans. IBR, consolidation, service repayment, etc. Knowing there are a lot of ways to attack the problem in residency & beyond helps me not panic. Also, by looking into repayment issues, I understood why private loans are a problem. www.finaid.org is a pretty good place to start.

2. Whenever I see in the news media that average med student debt is $100k or $150k, I respond with a better number, backed by data from the MSAR. $200k to $300k is the new normal. Also I point out that the range of 0 to $500k (include undergrad debt) is more informative than the average, which includes a lot of zeros (parents, military etc).

Best of luck to you.

No ****. I always feel like Charlie Brown when they flash that stat. Being into The Man for twice what their saying. At a sweet recessionly 9 points.

For me what sets me straight is not all the gigs Uncle Scam is pimping in the Ozarks where I can convince the locals that F'n within the tribe...not the smartest. Or makin sure the wagon train of idiots carrying out corporate military operations maintains a nice crop of fat healthy kiddos in tow.

But. That I just don't need a bunch of useless **** that makes all of our american dreams come true. Like rims for my honda. Or a leather couch from cratre and barrel. Or trips to Vegas where I can elbow jockey with grandmas from toledo to put my change in an electric wank machine.

The amount of stupid **** we waste our money on--private pre-school tuition, diamond accessories for b!thces that don't love us, etc.--we can easily pay back our debts with.

Not while acquiring massive wealth. But enough to be salient and debt free if we task ourselves with accomplishing it. Which is more than most of our citizenry could ever hope for.

 

[FlyLite]

I find the poem "The Road Not Taken" by Robert Frost comforting when I am confronted with tough decisions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken_(poem). One learns to tolerate the risks that come with all important decisions in life. A life without certain well considered risks is probably not worth it in the end.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I know when I was an undergrad a long time ago and 18-21 years old I worried a little about the student loans I was taking out... but not much. Now, I find as a very nontrad soon-to-be med student I am feeling stressed about the debt. I guess getting the financial aid letter from my school really made it sink in. Holy cow that is a lot of money and the majority of the money I am borrowing will start accruing interest immediately. Being older and from a very modest background I am starting to worry about this. How do you guys handle this/calm yourself down?

Yeah, they've pretty much got you once you're accepted. Expect a massive amount of compounding debt that you have no control over until you are an attending.

Treat is like a second mortgage. There are one or two creative ways to help pay off your loan as a new attending, but you should be expecting this to be a 20-30 year burden. Educational debt is probably some of the most benign debt.

 

[PostHaste]

I actually balked at med school debt far more strongly at the end of undergrad when I had a whopping $5k in student loans. But that was back when $50 in groceries a week was unthinkable.

Now, with a mortgage and two kids in daycare and weekly food bills pushing $150, big numbers don't scare me. Granted, my projected debt is more than my mortgage, but medicine is likely to turn a better profit than that pig has over the past 5 years.

Also, like DrMidLife, I try to keep my eyes out for options. Two of our hospitalists recently left for fellowships and that was sort of a moment for me - IM residency, work as a hospitalist for a few years, pay things down, go back for subspecialty. Or you could work like a resident for an extra year and pay off a big chunk.

Maybe non-trads have a leg up in this regard. We've already had at least a few years of living outside of school; in theory we should have a little less senioritis and a bit more restraint when residency graduation rolls around. You know, in theory. 🙄

 

[mafunk]

I don't worry about it much.

Perhaps it is that I'm in denial. Or, perhaps because I have not yet been admitted to med school and therefore don't have tuition debt. But, I figure I can get partial loan payback if I serve in certain areas. I only plan to borrow for tuition/books/fees, so with loan forgiveness and using 50% of my salary to pay off loans I figure I'll pay it off in a few years post residency.

BUT....

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I got sick or some other tragedy happened that prohibited me from finishing. Then what? Fat debt and a tough road trying to pay it back.

I plan to get medical school tuition insurance just to be safe. I'm sort of an insurance freak, though. Both my hubby and I are very well insured because I figure if there is ever death or serious illness the last thing I want to worry about is money.

 

[MedMommy]

I haven't even gotten into med school yet, but assuming all goes well, here's our plan. We already have an established lifestyle that we budget for and make ends meet on my husband's income. Starting this fall when I start as a CNA, every bit of my pay (that doesn't go to taxes) will go into a fund for tuition for prereqs. If and when I do get into med school, we will continue our lifestyle on one income, take out loans for school debt, then simply continue that lifestyle on his income until I'm out of school/residency/fellowship. We won't change our lifestyle until every bit of my school loans are paid off. So ALL or as much as humanly possible of my pay will be going to pay off debts for several years. I'm thinking with any luck of getting in with a good practice, debt could be paid off in 7-10 years post med school. Then we would have double to triple the income available after paying off school.

 

[mafunk]

I haven't even gotten into med school yet, but assuming all goes well, here's our plan. We already have an established lifestyle that we budget for and make ends meet on my husband's income. Starting this fall when I start as a CNA, every bit of my pay (that doesn't go to taxes) will go into a fund for tuition for prereqs. If and when I do get into med school, we will continue our lifestyle on one income, take out loans for school debt, then simply continue that lifestyle on his income until I'm out of school/residency/fellowship. We won't change our lifestyle until every bit of my school loans are paid off. So ALL or as much as humanly possible of my pay will be going to pay off debts for several years. I'm thinking with any luck of getting in with a good practice, debt could be paid off in 7-10 years post med school. Then we would have double to triple the income available after paying off school.

👍 Sounds pretty much like our plan. But do you really think it will take 7 years if you are using all your salary to pay off? The way I figure if I borrow 100,000 I can then pay

25K/year for three years of residency
that should basically pay half of it off. Then I'll try to find a position that offers loan forgiveness for the balance. Or, I'll just use 100% of my salary first year or two to pay the loans.

 

[Law2Doc]

👍 Sounds pretty much like our plan. But do you really think it will take 7 years if you are using all your salary to pay off? The way I figure if I borrow 100,000 I can then pay

25K/year for three years of residency
that should basically pay half of it off. Then I'll try to find a position that offers loan forgiveness for the balance. Or, I'll just use 100% of my salary first year or two to pay the loans.

How much salary are you expecting to make in residency? The pay these days is usually in the ballpark of $46k-48k, from which you are going to be paying a good chunk in taxes, benefits. Then you are going to have to pay out money toward Step 3, licensing, and whatever other expenses your book fund won't cover (more than you think). If you are living primarily off a spouse's income, you should be able to pay something, but I think $25k is probably kidding yourself.

If you can keep up with the interest, you are probably being more realistic and staying well ahead of the pack.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

L2D, how is it that people moonlight as residents?? My friend said she did frequently and would make ~50$/hr... Additionally, I think mafunk is saying they can make ends meet on the spouses salary, so they can put the residency income to the debt... That is also my friends plan, she has almost all of her med school debt paid off and said once she starts her 'real' job in Sept, she'll have the rest paid off in 2 years...

 

[Scottish Chap]

L2D, how is it that people moonlight as residents?? My friend said she did frequently and would make ~50$/hr... Additionally, I think mafunk is saying they can make ends meet on the spouses salary, so they can put the residency income to the debt... That is also my friends plan, she has almost all of her med school debt paid off and said once she starts her 'real' job in Sept, she'll have the rest paid off in 2 years...

Pass Step 3 of the USMLE, apply for an unrestricted medical license in the state you want to practice, and moonlight. Not as straight-forward as it used to be (lots of residency program including my own beefed up their restrictions recently). I took Step 3 early as an intern as we used to be allowed to moonlight as R2's. Now it's R3's only (common for most residency programs, and depends on your specialty...harder to do in sub-specialty surgical specialties).

The moonlighting hours must be included in the 80-hour work week which is a mandate and, although it sounds like an easy solution for nontraditionals with perhaps more dependents, you should not plan on this being a major source of income while you are a resident. The physical demands of residency, program restrictions, and increasing re-structuring of residency programs make this avenue increasingly more difficult. Sorry.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I'm not so concerned about that... My husband gets to play sugar daddy for awhile... My first concern is getting in this cycle, my second concern is finishing/doing well on steps 1/2, and my third concern is getting into a FM residency in CO... then I'll deal with paying off debt... 😉

 

[Law2Doc]

L2D, how is it that people moonlight as residents?? My friend said she did frequently and would make ~50$/hr... Additionally, I think mafunk is saying they can make ends meet on the spouses salary, so they can put the residency income to the debt... That is also my friends plan, she has almost all of her med school debt paid off and said once she starts her 'real' job in Sept, she'll have the rest paid off in 2 years...

As Scottish Chap indicated, you won't be moonlighting in year one because you generally need a year of internship and to pass Step 3 and apply for a license. At most places you do moonlighting in year 3 at best. And even then, as indicated above, it has to be okay with your PD and contract, and fit within the 80 hour work week. So many places don't allow it at all. And when you do get moonlighting dollars, you have to pay taxes as a self employed individual which is a much higher rate. So you make some money, but unless you are in a specialty with loads of time and a lot of moonlighting demand, you won't make as much as many people say. And again, you are doing this on top of a full residency schedule, and most people need to have some spare time to see friends/family. I wouldn't count on moonlighting money in any significant way.

 

[Torr]

Now it's R3's only (common for most residency programs, and depends on your specialty...harder to do in sub-specialty surgical specialties).

but unless you are in a specialty with loads of time and a lot of moonlighting demand, you won't make as much as many people say.

It already sounds like it isn't a worthwhile way to spend the few hours you can spare outside of residency which sucks because I used to think moonlighting was a good option for extra cash.

You both mentioned that your specialty will determine how likely you are to pick up shifts so in which specialties are moonlighters in high demand generally? If there is a trend that is.

 

[QofQuimica]

My program limits moonlighting to after the PGY2 year as well, and I think that may even be a state law. Not that I have any interest whatsoever in working more than my residency work hours anyway! For those who are burning to moonlight, besides the downsides that L2D and SC pointed out, you should also consider that when you moonlight, you are basically working as an attending physician, and that's the level of responsibility that you take on if something goes wrong, a patient sues you, etc. I kind of feel like if I were ready to practice independently at the end of my second year, there wouldn't be much point to having more than two years of residency. Since no residency in any specialty can be completed in less than three years, there's probably a good reason for that.

OP, there is no question that you are taking on a huge financial commitment. Personally, I don't think there is *anything* that would make me not feel worried about that. It makes me facepalm when I see premeds in the PA forum brushing off six figure debt like it's no big deal. However, going through medical training and doing medicine as a career also require a huge personal commitment. This is almost certainly not going to be something you do for a few years after your training is up and then move on to the next thing. So I agree with SC that if you decide to go down this path, you should think of it as more or less of a permanent career change on the order of several decades, and that will likely be time enough for you to pay it all back.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
You both mentioned that your specialty will determine how likely you are to pick up shifts so in which specialties are moonlighters in high demand generally? If there is a trend that is.

I don't know that there's a trend, and anything we tell you may be totally different after the 7 years it will take for someone applying to med school now to get to the point where they will moonlight. Also by then more programs will have outright forbid moonlighting (the ever increasing trend since the ACGME started limiting duty hours in order for residents to be less sleep deprived, since there's no point limiting someone to 80 hours to "rest" if that just means he's going to go out and make up the difference working at another hospital).

 

[n3xa]

So I agree with SC that if you decide to go down this path, you should think of it as more or less of a permanent career change on the order of several decades, and that will likely be time enough for you to pay it all back.

And I'm ok with that. I really just don't want to resort to having a diet that solely consists of 99 cent ramen noodles because I'm that concerned about my budget.

 

[Helen Wheels]

OP, there is no question that you are taking on a huge financial commitment. Personally, I don't think there is *anything* that would make me not feel worried about that. It makes me facepalm when I see premeds in the PA forum brushing off six figure debt like it's no big deal. However, going through medical training and doing medicine as a career also require a huge personal commitment. This is almost certainly not going to be something you do for a few years after your training is up and then move on to the next thing. So I agree with SC that if you decide to go down this path, you should think of it as more or less of a permanent career change on the order of several decades, and that will likely be time enough for you to pay it all back.

Yep, I am going to be 40 a few weeks into first semester this year. This is it, this is the career path I will follow to the grave. And I am comfortable with that. 🙂

I really just don't want to resort to having a diet that solely consists of 99 cent ramen noodles because I'm that concerned about my budget.

n3xa, This is exactly what I have been thinking lately and mentioning to other people. That the way I lived as an undergrad in my twenties is not the way I'm doing med school in my forties. It seems that most people don't even know what ramen noodles are these days but, anyway, not eatin' 'em at age 40. Just not.

 

[Scattered1984]

I am currently scared spitless and I'm only 27. I've just been accepted to a SMP because my GPA and my MCAT Scores are not up to par so that means even more debt on top of the the four years of med school.


I was also accepted into a RN program, which I applied to incase I didn't get into my post bac programs. Now I have to make a decision between money and time. Being an RN would probably put me in a better financial standing than I am now, but then I would lose 4-5 years because I would still need a SMP irrregardless of the experience I picked up as an RN. And in its own way, times is still money.

My greatest fiscal responsibility as of right now is a car payment. No kids. No house or any of that other grownup stuff yet b/cI knew deep down I was planning on going back.

What's a girl to do?

 

[Brudaddy]

The cost med. education is breathtaking. When I received my fin. aid "award"🙄 my wife and I gasped and some serious doubt crept into my brain but as I thought about it more I kept telling myself what I've always believed throughout this whole process. Its long and hard and not without pitfalls but what would I be doing if I wasn't doing this. I'd be working well into my sixties, maybe seventies anyway, so why not do what I love and follow my passion. The debt will be payed off in the long run and I'll be happy, which is far more valuable in the end.

 

[Helen Wheels]

It also hit me the other day that the majority of my loans have the interest ticker starting on the first day of class. 😱 This is going to be true for everyone since, from what I understand, no one gets more than $8500 a year in subsidized loans. I also think the fed's interest rates could be lower. 🙁

 

[spiderpete]

No doubt that this dilemma is an anchor that holds many down from practicing medicine. There is a way through, but it does some to be getting tougher (demographics, politics, economy, etc.).

First, don't sacrifice your dream on account of money. Follow your bliss (as Anita Roddick so aptly said). What you are doing is challenging and is for the greater good of mankind. There are precious few professions with such a purpose, such a stable sense of 'yes, this is right'.

Second, from a business perspective, it is not the debt you hold, but the debt relative to the assets. Accounting 101, but an idea very very few people take to heart and can embrace. You will eventually be making a fair amount of money, maybe multiple six figures. Set next to your expected expenses, this could be quite a comfortable living. So you have to figure out what your net is. Your education and career can be monetized. I wholly agree with other posters that have suggested charting your course on a spreadsheet. You can see what is expected to come in and what is going out. As a candidate to the profession, you do in fact have the intellectual skills do this work. Many blow it off. If you put in the hours you will have a much easier financial future. If you can look at this picture you paint and you know what your financial goals are, then you can also figure out how to fill in the empty spaces. This eases the stress tremendously.

I guess the biggest problem is that there are no guaranteed riches at the end of this rainbow. But, you can come up with a reasonable idea of what your pile of gold will be, and come to peace with it. Then go out and be a doctor for all the more important reasons you had in the first place.

 

[n3xa]

n3xa, This is exactly what I have been thinking lately and mentioning to other people. That the way I lived as an undergrad in my twenties is not the way I'm doing med school in my forties. It seems that most people don't even know what ramen noodles are these days but, anyway, not eatin' 'em at age 40. Just not.

I think we'll be fine. 🙂

If I get in I definitely want to talk to someone about what to expect and/or actually put together a spreadsheet so I can at least see some numbers.

I've always been conscious of repaying debts in general, so it's in the back of my mind, but not enough to stop me. It baffles me to see some of my friends in $100k debt, working in nonprofit, and partying like no tomorrow.

I'll save the Louboutins for later. 😛

 

[PharMed2016]

I think we'll be fine. 🙂

If I get in I definitely want to talk to someone about what to expect and/or actually put together a spreadsheet so I can at least see some numbers.

I've always been conscious of repaying debts in general, so it's in the back of my mind, but not enough to stop me. It baffles me to see some of my friends in $100k debt, working in nonprofit, and partying like no tomorrow.

I'll save the Louboutins for later. 😛

That's America for you! Living like a doctor in the present and like a student when your a doctor. 😛

 

[MCAT guy]

I was fortunate enough to get a full ride scholarship ('bout 200k😀).

It didn't come until late, so I understand the pain of worrying about loans!

 

[BPlaysItCool]

I was fortunate enough to get a full ride scholarship ('bout 200k😀).

It didn't come until late, so I understand the pain of worrying about loans!

Geez. Douche much?

It's a thread about crushing debt.....

You're a f'n premed. And. You understand? .... Because for a few months you worried about it.

Dude....?

 

[BPlaysItCool]

That poster will have a nice humble pie to eat later on. Besides, happiness doesn't come with just zero debt to your name, it comes from being able to share what you love to do (passion) with others. It is much better to go into $175k of debt, have a great marriage and be a parent and love your work than a person with zero debt, no family, and will be alone in their later years.

Sure. I'm no hater. Congrats to anyone who can get over on this thing. Still.

I don't go to a Lemaze class with a head band and a sweater that says: "Prego Guy!" and while doing calisthenics say things like....'sup, I had a stomach one time, couldn't **** right for 2 days....totally know what you're going through.

 

[MCAT guy]

That poster will have a nice humble pie to eat later on. Besides, happiness doesn't come with just zero debt to your name, it comes from being able to share what you love to do (passion) with others. It is much better to go into $175k of debt, have a great marriage and be a parent and love your work than a person with zero debt, no family, and will be alone in their later years.

Lol, your screenname is Ilovemoney.

I actually believe happiness comes from what you are able to contribute and obviously good relationships. One of my goals was always to work overseas with underprivileged and poor individuals, having less debt allows me to do that faster.

You guys are quick to judge. I didn't come into this field for $, I came for love of the game. I too expected 300k debt. In my previous career I earned b/t 150-200k per year with no debt. So when I left that to take on 300k in debt and 10 yrs training, it obviously wasn't to be set up financially.

Lol at humble pie too. I didn't even say I was going to do or accomplish anything. Hard to fall if I've made no claims


All I said is I understand. If policies are presented to lower medical student debt then I will support them even if I don't have any! I'm in support of less
debt for this degree.

 

[MCAT guy]

Sure. I'm no hater. Congrats to anyone who can get over on this thing. Still.

I don't go to a Lemaze class with a head band and a sweater that says: "Prego Guy!" and while doing calisthenics say things like....'sup, I had a stomach one time, couldn't **** right for 2 days....totally know what you're going through.

I apologize if it was bad form

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Med school debt sure is a scary thing. I feel bad for those with no savings because I know what a monster it will be for you all to pay off that debt. Trying to live off one salary is the smart thing to do, but those of us who are experienced enough in life know that life never goes as planned. The key is to limit what money to pay expenses from the second stream of income.

If your significant other doesn't make great money with the single stream of income, it might help to try and get a second job so you can try even harder to prevent yourself from using any of the "third" stream of income.

Paying $1,500 or more a month for a student loan payment is a lot of money. For those who end up in primary care, you will likely have around $25k - $75k left after all expenses to put towards fun stuff and whatever else you want to do (even retirement or paying for school for your kids).

Not a path to riches, but a path that could bring joy if you end up liking what you do.

1500$ is nothing. Not only that, even AFTER taxes, the likelihood is that you will have ~85k to play with. I think I'll survive...

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

The reality is even in family med you'll make at least 175. That's 14,500/mo before taxes. Even if you were taxed at the highest rate, you're still pulling in 7250 after taxes...

 

[NVWolfPack]

I really worried about loans. Truly, I will apply to 15-20 schools but praying to get into my state school where tuition is 18-20k per year. I dream of going to a better university until I see their tuition schedule.

I used to eat rawmen when I was 18 years old. I will be 33 when I start med school. I think I'll just head down to Trader Joe's and grab the $3 buck chuck and who ever is selling the 99 cent burger. lol I hope my diet doesn't come down to that.