Does verbal reasoning really matter?

[mdmdt]

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I have been taking practice MCAT tests although I'm probably not going to take the real thing for another year, and I've consistently scored between a 13 and a 15 on the verbal. Of course I'm happy about that, but would a good verbal score really have much impact if my science scores are not so great, say between a 7 and a 9? 😕

I could get a V15, PS8, BS8 and break that critical 30 mark but would I be a competitive candidate? Or would they laugh and tell me to be an English teacher?

 

[DrYoda]

Some schools (the UCs?) supposibly weigh verbal heavier than the science.

Edit: Balanced scores are best, but don't worry a year is alot of time to improve.

 

[mdmdt]

Some schools (the UCs?) supposibly weigh verbal heavier than the science.

If that's true, that would be brilliant. UCSF is my top choice at the moment

 

[SarsMO]

Try to get your sciences at 10 (or higher) and you'll be doing pretty good. High VR is great.

 

[mdgator]

Many schools love high verbal scores. You'll be covering more material in med school than you can imagine, and displaying the ability to efficiently handle written material is vitally important.

Don't settle for 8s in the sciences. Can you get in with those scores? Sure. But if you have the verbal reasoning skills to get 14s, then there is nothing stopping you from getting high science scores...all you have to do is study. If you want to get into highly competitive schools, try to get those science scores up a few points. A year is more than enough time. Give it a few weeks of devoted studying, and you will likely be making in the mid to high thirties.

 

[disorder]

You have a LOT of time to bring up your sciences, so don't worry.

If you can score 13+ on your VR, that's awesome. I hear that many schools eat that up.

 

[majahops]

... this is about as anecdotal as supporting evidence can possibly be, but of the pool of people i've known to take the MCAT, the ones who've scored the highest on VR HAVE in fact had the highest verbal intelligence in my opinion.

 

[mdmarty]

Some schools (the UCs?) supposibly weigh verbal heavier than the science.

Edit: Balanced scores are best, but don't worry a year is alot of time to improve.

Other way around: the UCs are more forgiving when it comes to low verbal scores. Their 10th percentile is an 8, and UCLA's is a 7. Most other schools of similar ranking have a 10th percentile of 9.

 

[Mistress S]

You pretty much described my exact MCAT score- I believe it was VR15, PS8, BS9. BTW, I was an English major. 😀 I think an unbalanced score is never ideal, but clearly it didn't keep me out of med school (currently applying to residency). It makes you stand out at least! It would be better if you are scoring that well in verbal to bring up your other sections to >10 if possible. Even if you can't bring up the science sections as much, I think if your BCPM GPA is strong that can help offset an unbalanced MCAT score. Schools definitely do care about the VR section though. Good luck!

 

[Diksha]

As far as I am able to judge, having high verbal scores will never, ever hurt you. Even if the science scores aren't quite as high.

 

[ButImLETired]

This thread makes me 😀

 

[sleepy12]

i actually heard verbal scores are the most important. I read somewhere that there is a correlation with how well you do on verbal and how likely you are to pass the USMLE. That is why med schools like it because its the best predictor.

 

[evandavidson]

i actually heard verbal scores are the most important. I read somewhere that there is a correlation with how well you do on verbal and how likely you are to pass the USMLE. That is why med schools like it because its the best predictor.

Actually, VR has the lowest correlation (.39). BS has a correlation coefficient of .55 and PS has slightly lower one at .49.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12377692?dopt=AbstractPlus

 

[dienekes88]

It does if you want to get with PreMedPrincess.

 

[majahops]

I would guess that VR correlates most highly with IQ, though. Just a hunch.

... I would guess that the ratios BS:VR and PS:VR correlate most highly with gunnerism and gunnerish study habits (hence gunnerism being a major confounding variable when relating BS and PS versus VR MCAT section performance to USMLE), whereas I would guess there would be an inverse relationship between gunnerism and VR score among those scoring 30+ on the MCAT. Again... just a hunch.

Actually, VR has the lowest correlation (.39). BS has a correlation coefficient of .55 and PS has slightly lower one at .49.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12377692?dopt=AbstractPlus

 

[bcat85]

Yes it matters. Work hard on it.

 

[Raryn]

VR is the score thats hardest to get an increase on. Its much easier to bring an 8 on BS up to 11 than it is to bring an 8 on VR up, just because reasoning is something that is much harder to learn than a bunch of memorized facts.

 

[Deepa100]

It is really ironic that we worry so much about the VR but the IMGs take all science classes with no emphasis on humanities whatsoever and still do great in the Licensing exams and become cardiologists (I personally know two from India, English is not even their first language). Unlike docs from other countries, the ones from India do score real well in USMLE and earn spots in good residency programs. So, what's all this VR fuss about?

 

[nogolfinsnow]

I have been taking practice MCAT tests although I'm probably not going to take the real thing for another year, and I've consistently scored between a 13 and a 15 on the verbal. Of course I'm happy about that, but would a good verbal score really have much impact if my science scores are not so great, say between a 7 and a 9? 😕

I could get a V15, PS8, BS8 and break that critical 30 mark but would I be a competitive candidate? Or would they laugh and tell me to be an English teacher?

That fact that you aren't going to take the MCAT for a year and you're already good at the VR section means you can spend 95% of your study time on PS and BS. VR came pretty naturally to me so I almost never worked on it except in taking practice tests. Thus I could spend all of my time working on acid-base equations and trying to re-learn the O-chem I had taken 3 years prior. You'll need to spend your time studying for PS and BS, b/c UCSF is going to be a long shot with a 31 and 8s in the sciences. In a year you should be able to add 2-3 points on PS and BS. Now you have 11-11-15 = 37 and that's a great number.

 

[87138]

It is really ironic that we worry so much about the VR but the IMGs take all science classes with no emphasis on humanities whatsoever and still do great in the Licensing exams and become cardiologists (I personally know two from India, English is not even their first language). Unlike docs from other countries, the ones from India do score real well in USMLE and earn spots in good residency programs. So, what's all this VR fuss about?

Verbal Reasoning tests, among other things, your ability to assimilate a "large" (relatively speaking) amount of information in short periods of time IN [what is considered for most applicants] YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE. The purpose of the VR section isn't to say "well, you don't understand the English Language as well because your native tongue is Hindi and you hardly know English, so you'll make a terrible cardiologist."

My guess is that many of these successful IMGs, were they given a chance, would have scored rather well on a VR exam in their strongest language.

 

[RoadRunner17]

Oh, it's important. If it wasn't important to someone important, it wouldn't be on the MCAT..

 

[Nobuo]

Yea verbal is pretty important. It's probably the hardest and most competitive/selective section on the MCAT because every time you miss a verbal question your section score goes down a lot.

For ex, lets say perfect verbal but miss 1 question = 14
miss 2 questions = 13
miss 3 q = 12
miss 4 q = 11

etc, until you get to around a section score of 9 or 10, where you can miss more than 1 question and still maintain your section score. If you can score really high on VR, it shows that you have a competitive edge over other applicants.

As far as sciences, general rule of thumb is get 10 or higher on any section. If you score a 9 or 8, you can still make it, but schools might give you a hard time about it.

 

[Deepa100]

Oh, it's important. If it wasn't important to someone important, it wouldn't be on the MCAT..

I know, I am just being bitter😉

 

[bodonid]

Level of importance in my experience
VR > BS > PS

 

[bodonid]

Oh, it's important. If it wasn't important to someone important, it wouldn't be on the MCAT..

The Writing Sample is on the MCAT, last time I checked. And the Writing Sample isn't important to anyone at all. I know, I asked.

 

[RoadRunner17]

The Writing Sample is on the MCAT, last time I checked. And the Writing Sample isn't important to anyone at all. I know, I asked.

It is to the Canadians.

 

[bodonid]

It is to the Canadians.

touche, my friend. I would have been screened out at some (most?) Canadian schools. 😳

 

[majahops]

Indians tend to have excellent verbal skills, in my experience with them.

Verbal Reasoning tests, among other things, your ability to assimilate a "large" (relatively speaking) amount of information in short periods of time IN [what is considered for most applicants] YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE. The purpose of the VR section isn't to say "well, you don't understand the English Language as well because your native tongue is Hindi and you hardly know English, so you'll make a terrible cardiologist."

My guess is that many of these successful IMGs, were they given a chance, would have scored rather well on a VR exam in their strongest language.

 

[deleted106503]

Yes, it is important. I got a 6 in VR the first time I applied. Got one interview invite and nothing from the other four. So I made sure to actually practice VR by going through EK 101 and bumped it up to a 10 the second time around. Hopefully I have better luck this time around...

 

[mdmdt]

Indians tend to have excellent verbal skills, in my experience with them.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. And it's reasoning anyway, based on provided material, not a vocab test.

 

[bodonid]

Indians tend to have excellent verbal skills, in my experience with them. I am a racist jerk, and I don't have a girlfriend.

Whoa, whoa whoa. I CAN'T Believe nobody has said anything yet! We are supposed to call them "native americans". Duh...

 

[majahops]

Surprised and glad you publicly agreed. I'm pleasantly surprised by how un-politically correct most of the people on SDN seem to be.

That being said, i'm biased since I love Indian people/culture. 😛

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. And it's reasoning anyway, based on provided material, not a vocab test.

 

[majahops]

haha... the dot not the feather, mang.

Whoa, whoa whoa. I CAN'T Believe nobody has said anything yet! We are supposed to call them "native americans". Duh...

 

[bodonid]

haha... the dot not the feather, mang.

just joking. Did you notice I misquoted you? I always wonder if people notice that.

 

[bodonid]

That being said, i'm biased since I love Indian people/culture. 😛

I love indian food, but I hate all the yogurt.

 

[majahops]

Yep, but I also noticed the time it was edited at hehe. You're a funny guy though. Not sure why you threw the girlfriend thing in there, hmm... but still funny.

just joking. Did you notice I misquoted you? I always wonder if people notice that.

 

[Omyss]

I have been taking practice MCAT tests although I'm probably not going to take the real thing for another year, and I've consistently scored between a 13 and a 15 on the verbal. Of course I'm happy about that, but would a good verbal score really have much impact if my science scores are not so great, say between a 7 and a 9? 😕

I could get a V15, PS8, BS8 and break that critical 30 mark but would I be a competitive candidate? Or would they laugh and tell me to be an English teacher?

no it doesn't matter that much

 

[Doctorverardoll]

I'm not sure you can do in the single digits for both sciences to get an acceptance. You can check my mdapps. I got 14V, 10BS,8PS and am currently taking a break from studying for my first med school exam!

That said I got 4 interviews with my score (applied to 21).

 

[primadonna22274]

Can anyone explain the correlation between VR and WS? Honestly, how can I get an 8 and a 9 on VR and a consistent S on two writing samples for the 2 MCATs I took 8 months apart?
I will say the second time I was so distracted by all the clickety-clack typing background noise from those who started the test 20 minutes before me and were working on THEIR writing samples that I was flustered and could NOT concentrate. Only AFTER I finished the section very frustrated and very much in need of a short break did the nice testing monitor tell me they had noise-canceling headphones (thanks man, a little late now).
Ugh.
Also a former English major, and in general I think of myself as a pretty good writer/communicator. Ah well.

 

[Lukkie]

i suck at verbal (can't break 11) and i admire anyone that can break that consistently, especially scores of 13-15 regularly. everyone i've met that score high on verbal are very smart people.

 

[Bearferret]

Can anyone explain the correlation between VR and WS? Honestly, how can I get an 8 and a 9 on VR and a consistent S on two writing samples for the 2 MCATs I took 8 months apart?
I will say the second time I was so distracted by all the clickety-clack typing background noise from those who started the test 20 minutes before me and were working on THEIR writing samples that I was flustered and could NOT concentrate. Only AFTER I finished the section very frustrated and very much in need of a short break did the nice testing monitor tell me they had noise-canceling headphones (thanks man, a little late now).
Ugh.
Also a former English major, and in general I think of myself as a pretty good writer/communicator. Ah well.

I don't have any data to show you, but the two skill sets are pretty different, to be honest - considering a short open-ended question, organizing and planning a response, and then generating new text in accordance to your plan is a very different process than reading a long, dense passage and then answering multiple-choice reasoning questions about the passage. So even though they're both "verbal" (as opposed to science), they're very different, so it's not too hard to believe that you're just a lot better at one than at the other. I would think that being a good writer/communicator would be most helpful on the essay, as you're not actually generating anything new on the VR.

As regards the initial topic, the VR is important, for sure, but if you hear from someone that it's the MOST important, and that med schools look more at that than at any other score, don't listen to them. That is a myth perpetuated by some MCAT prep companies who know that many, many pre-meds are terrified of the verbal section. There may be a few schools that give it more weight, but by and large, I'm pretty sure that the number one thing that matters is your overall score, followed by score balance (they'd prefer not to see, say, a 6 in any section, regardless of what your overall score is, for example).

EDIT: I suppose I should add that while I'm not an expert, this information does come from a reliable source with lots of experience with the med school application thing, on both the schools' and the applicants' sides.

 

[Decicco]

I admire anyone who can consistently score 12+ on verbal. It requires incredible concentration, incredible reading comprehension, or both. Nonetheless, it is a skill that can take you anywhere in life and while it doesnt really answer your question, OP, I can say that your VR ability at least impresses me.

 

[Lukkie]

I admire anyone who can consistently score 12+ on verbal. It requires incredible concentration, incredible reading comprehension, or both. Nonetheless, it is a skill that can take you anywhere in life and while it doesnt really answer your question, OP, I can say that your VR ability at least impresses me.

agreed... i think anyone can score 13+ on PS/BS by studying all the concepts/formulas etc, but 13+ on verbal is something you're kinda just born with.

 

[coldweatherblue]

dude you're golden. VR is the hardest to bring up; BS and PS can be studied for and it's not hard to gain a few points. Just chill and a month or so before you take the test start hitting the sciences hard.

 

[ButImLETired]

agreed... i think anyone can score 13+ on PS/BS by studying all the concepts/formulas etc, but 13+ on verbal is something you're kinda just born with.

I don't know that I agree that it's innate so much as it's a rare skill because not everyone learns it.

I think most people would agree that the science sections are either about memorization or problem solving. If you're premed, these are things you have finally honed- simply because you've had to. Hopefully, by the time you're ready to take the MCAT, you've taken the classes, you've taken MANY science classes for that matter, and depending on how good your undergrad is about teaching you problem solving skills, you are either good or great at it. After all, most pre-meds are science majors. These should be skills you're familiar with, and at that point all you really have to do is study.

However, to say that anyone can study and do well on the sciences doesn't seem true to me. Not everyone is "good at science", meaning not everyone has learned the skill of reading a detailed science textbook, drawing out the data seamlessly, understanding the problem at hand and coming up with a solution. It's just that pre-med sciences usually control (or they're supposed to, anyway) for those types.

Verbal is yet another skill. It requires a global understanding of a passage, it's a much more abstract way to read and interpret without getting bogged down by unnecessary details. Not everyone can do it- not cause not everyone is born with it, but because not all pre-meds learn it. And just like "problem-solving", the skill itself is hard to teach in the duration of a normal MCAT study session. It's built up through experience and teaching- a teaching that is not often done in pre-med curricula, especially if the students have always "stuck with what they're good at" and focused their attention on the sciences, without branching out to the humanities.

Anyways, my 2 cents.

 

[Becky1988]

Im not sure how to start a new thread im new to all of this so im sorry for posting it on here but i have a question for anyone who can help me please. I just took the verbal reasoning section and scored a 34 out of 40.. on the mcat scale of 1-15 what does that mean i scored and how do i figure it out for future reference?

 

[iheartcats]

Im not sure how to start a new thread im new to all of this so im sorry for posting it on here but i have a question for anyone who can help me please. I just took the verbal reasoning section and scored a 34 out of 40.. on the mcat scale of 1-15 what does that mean i scored and how do i figure it out for future reference?

You need to look at the scoring guide for the test that you took. The conversion of raw to scaled score changes depending on the version of the test, so there is not a rule of thumb that you can use each time.

 

[ayushman80]

I don't know that I agree that it's innate so much as it's a rare skill because not everyone learns it.

I think most people would agree that the science sections are either about memorization or problem solving. If you're premed, these are things you have finally honed- simply because you've had to. Hopefully, by the time you're ready to take the MCAT, you've taken the classes, you've taken MANY science classes for that matter, and depending on how good your undergrad is about teaching you problem solving skills, you are either good or great at it. After all, most pre-meds are science majors. These should be skills you're familiar with, and at that point all you really have to do is study.

However, to say that anyone can study and do well on the sciences doesn't seem true to me. Not everyone is "good at science", meaning not everyone has learned the skill of reading a detailed science textbook, drawing out the data seamlessly, understanding the problem at hand and coming up with a solution. It's just that pre-med sciences usually control (or they're supposed to, anyway) for those types.

Verbal is yet another skill. It requires a global understanding of a passage, it's a much more abstract way to read and interpret without getting bogged down by unnecessary details. Not everyone can do it- not cause not everyone is born with it, but because not all pre-meds learn it. And just like "problem-solving", the skill itself is hard to teach in the duration of a normal MCAT study session. It's built up through experience and teaching- a teaching that is not often done in pre-med curricula, especially if the students have always "stuck with what they're good at" and focused their attention on the sciences, without branching out to the humanities.

Anyways, my 2 cents.

Hmmm....I think too much importance is put on the verbal (but this is obviously a very baised opinon). Yes, I agree that we must have the ability to pick up large volume of material quickly. Wouldn't an IQ test also accomplish this? However, other countries also teach the same materials in english and don't have such a rigorous pre-medical verbal section. They produce some of the finest doctors in the world. The science sections are very important to medical school and should have the heaviest importance. They also have the highest correlation to USMLE scores.

Lets face it..science reading and humanities reading are VERY VERY different. People must also understand science passages in order to answer questions. Many of the passages ask you to understand the whole problem and also details.

Just my opinion.