Does your vehicle impact how your viewed by peers/patients?

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finalpsychyear

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I am in a bit of a pickle. I am giving up by 350 dollar lease SUV in 3-4 months due to lease end. I was told by a few attendings starting out in PP to make sure you don't drive anything too fancy as you'll be noticed by peers/patients. I do know a psychiatrist in a nearby area who drives a maserati and patients mention him by " the maserati psych doc".

I don't want to be sued more or get less referrals because of this. I am also in process of "joining" a 10+ member counseling group where they will send me all their referrals exclusively as I will be on site 1 or 2 days a month at their location.

From a business perspective I drive a lot as I have a few sites I go back and forth on so around 1000 miles a months of business related miles. My accountant told me I would be a fool to not use the SUV deduction and buy something and get nearly all of it expensed this year. I don't know the impact of this decision as I sorta would love to get something a little nicer than a toyota SUV but worry if I upgrade to the mercedes/bmw/audi/tesla SUV that all run 50-70k used if its a factor in the above concerns. I could however get a second car with the SUV purchase which which would be a used old camry/corolla/honda and drive that to sites that I have concerns like my PP or other areas.

Any input appreciated as I am entering year 4 as a PP attending in 2020.

Edit: I prefer the viewpoint of a "struggling or poor psychiatrist". Staff seeing your success may want more raises/bonuses than otherwise.
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Most important: do what makes you happy.

I am unaware of evidence that expense of car/clothes impacts anything. Some patients will probably do better with the "most successful" doc and others with the "more down to earth" doc. If a nice car gives you happiness, then as a happy doc your probably be a better doc. If not, spend the money on something you care about. Spending $20k to pay $8k less in taxes does not make sense.

The only exception is that if you are paying your staff on the low side and dressing/driving on the high side, they might resent you. You might be able to pay less if you're seen as the doc of the poor people. You can get around this by just paying fare wages, which is reasonable if you're doing well enough to buy a BMW.
 
Ancedotely, our faculty parking lot is full of BMW's, Mercedes, and Audi's. I don't think it would be abnormal to own that kind of vehicle.

You'd be surprised what kinds of vehicles your patients are driving, even if it's a horrible financial decision. I've had patients at the VA stressing about money, but being mad at the social worker suggesting they lose their $500-$700 a month truck payment.
 
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Psych19 said:
WCI on Business Vehicle Tax Deductions
(You probably can't deduct as many miles as you think you can, and the deduction probably isn't worth as much as you think it is.)

Also there are other benefits to driving a cheaper car, besides avoiding unwanted attention...
WCI on Getting Rich Driving a Beater
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If your a 1099 contactor working multiple sites you absolutely can deduct a huge amount of the over 6000 pound SUV vehicle. I spoke to 3 different accountants as I am very conservative about this and per sction 179 based on the rules trumped enacted with his tax cuts if your vehicle qualifies based on weight you can deduct up to 100% of the cost due to bonus depreciation as this is new and did not exist in past years when you had to basically depreciate it based on yearly depreciation.

While i never though I'd actually deduct a business SUV 100% as its usually advised no more than 70% based on the audit risk since it has to be put in service between jan 1 and dec 31 to get the tax credit for that tax year some people wait till dec 30 or dec 31 and plan a legit business meeting to drive the car after pickup directly to and then store the car immediately after and fully document the meeting, miles and purpose and a friend doing such even after audit had no issues and deduct the full purchase price.
 
The tax deduction for a 6001+lb GVWR vehicle is huge. You are mildly crazy if you don’t do it, but some people are reasonably crazy when it comes to cars. If you are a car nut, ignore the deduction.

I don’t think a single patient knows what car I drive, so I wouldn’t worry much about that. If you plan to put a business wrap on your car to advertise a high end practice, I wouldn’t drive a beater.

Your hired staff will 100% know what you drive. The nicer the vehicle, the more you should expect staff to ask for raises. They will feel like the success of the company should benefit them too, and nothing says success like driving a high end car. I drive a vehicle that is worth less than 80% of my staffs’. It is hard to argue that the practice is so successful when my car is worth $6k.
 
I think having a very expensive vehicle could lead patients and staff to make assumptions about you. As mentioned above, reactions will range (anything from feeling like there is no way you could understand their problems to believing you are very successful / sought after). I drive a newish but inexpensive model car and believe that is pretty neutral.
 
TexasPhysician said:
The tax deduction for a 6001+lb GVWR vehicle is huge. You are mildly crazy if you don’t do it, but some people are reasonably crazy when it comes to cars. If you are a car nut, ignore the deduction.

I don’t think a single patient knows what car I drive, so I wouldn’t worry much about that. If you plan to put a business wrap on your car to advertise a high end practice, I wouldn’t drive a beater.

Your hired staff will 100% know what you drive. The nicer the vehicle, the more you should expect staff to ask for raises. They will feel like the success of the company should benefit them too, and nothing says success like driving a high end car. I drive a vehicle that is worth less than 80% of my staffs’. It is hard to argue that the practice is so successful when my car is worth $6k.
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The alternative is to also keep a civic/camry around and just drive that to the PP. The next question i need to figure out is what i will buy and the budget.

Typical business deductible USED SUVs higher end (lexus, mercedes, bmw) usually 45-50k+unless you go older with more miles which then you risk maintenance and repairs to save up front and the german ones are notoriously crazy to repair. Then the tesla SUV is 80k-85k which i'd NEVER consider spending that normally but only under this special deduction is it even a consideration. Does the fact that it likely won't give little to no issues for the next 5-7 years plus free supercharging for life justify owning it at that sticker price. Of course I'd finance it and pay monthly for 4-5 years either way.
 
This thing about worrying about patients is new to me. How would patients even know what you drive? If you're worried about it, park in the back, but really, how many are going to see you get in or out of your vehicle? Also is there evidence that patients will judge the relatability of their doc based on their car or that it would keep them away? No other specialty worries about this, that I've seen. I think psychiatrists, in general, overanalyze everything and I think that's what gets in the way rather than what kind of car you drive.
 
Mass Effect said:
No other specialty worries about this, that I've seen. I think psychiatrists, in general, overanalyze everything and I think that's what gets in the way rather than what kind of car you drive.
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That's not entirely true. The literature on physician attire and patient perception is largely driven by EM. I mostly agree with you though, as the view from other specialties is doctors should dress like business people + white coat vs. that's stupid, not doctors should be worried about dressing to their patients' expectations.
 
downwithDTB said:
That's not entirely true. The literature on physician attire and patient perception is largely driven by EM. I mostly agree with you though, as the view from other specialties is doctors should dress like business people + white coat vs. that's stupid, not doctors should be worried about dressing to their patients' expectations.
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The literature I'm familiar with is simply about docs dressing a professional manner that screams doctor (which is why EM docs wear scrubs) versus studies on docs in high-end clothes not being relatable. Do you know of studies addressing the latter?
 
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Mass Effect said:
This thing about worrying about patients is new to me. How would patients even know what you drive? If you're worried about it, park in the back, but really, how many are going to see you get in or out of your vehicle? Also is there evidence that patients will judge the relatability of their doc based on their car or that it would keep them away? No other specialty worries about this, that I've seen. I think psychiatrists, in general, overanalyze everything and I think that's what gets in the way rather than what kind of car you drive.
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I had a therapist who was really, really into cars. He was adamant that there was only one true muscle car left. I can't remember what it was. But he owned whichever it was. Anyhow, he actually took me to sit in the car. I think he really wanted a "wow" response from me I was unable to produce. We didn't drive anywhere. Just took me to the parking lot to sit in it. He did ask me for technical advice on how to install an MP3 system (this was many years ago before the iPod had taken off).

I also had a psychiatrist whose desktop picture on his computer was of some sort of sports car. Not entirely related, but he was a smoker and so he saw me once in the parking lot as I was arriving (as he would go outside for smoke breaks). At the time for a variety of reasons, I sat in the backseat of the car being driven by my relative. I didn't know he had seen me in the car in the parking lot, but he told me during the session that I needed to drive in the front seat because it made me look odd to sit in the back. He was the one who eventually fled the country because he was facing prison time for a number of DUIs and self-prescribing. What's strange is before I even knew he was a drunk driver I wrote a story for my creative writing class based on him. I'm not good at short stories so this plot will sound rather contrived. The premise was a mildly unhappy psychiatrist listening to patients all day at a community clinic and the patient stories start to blur together. He starts using pat responses. He's worried about a report he has to write for the clinic. He keeps staring off at the desktop picture of the car and every once in a while looking out the window at his lesser car in the parking lot. On the way home from work he buys a Porsche. He has an accident leaving the dealership in which he's hit by an intoxicated person. It turns out to be one of the patients he had seen that day, who had specifically asked him about driving on that medication and was given the go-ahead. (I warned you this was contrived.) The psychiatrist loses his temper and punches the patient and tells him no one will ever believe him. He drives the car home and has no plan on how to hide it from his wife. He calls his patient's cell number and finds out he's at the hospital taken there by EMTs where he's told them what happened. The story ends with him unplugging the monitor with the desktop picture of the car and carrying it out after he's fired.

Anyhow, I wrote all of that before I knew anything about my psychiatrist's drug/alcohol problems or DUIs. Although it's not terribly prescient as in the story it's the patient who is intoxicated and runs into him.

I had all that in my head for a short story just from observing my distracted psychiatrist looking at his computer monitor with the sports car as the desktop picture.
 
downwithDTB said:
Most important: do what makes you happy.

I am unaware of evidence that expense of car/clothes impacts anything. Some patients will probably do better with the "most successful" doc and others with the "more down to earth" doc. If a nice car gives you happiness, then as a happy doc your probably be a better doc. If not, spend the money on something you care about. Spending $20k to pay $8k less in taxes does not make sense.

The only exception is that if you are paying your staff on the low side and dressing/driving on the high side, they might resent you. You might be able to pay less if you're seen as the doc of the poor people. You can get around this by just paying fare wages, which is reasonable if you're doing well enough to buy a BMW.
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Staff resents you regardless
 
Mass Effect said:
The literature I'm familiar with is simply about docs dressing a professional manner that screams doctor (which is why EM docs wear scrubs) versus studies on docs in high-end clothes not being relatable. Do you know of studies addressing the latter?
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Not really. The tl;dr of it all is that some folks who think doctors should wear ties did studies asking people to pick their preferred doc and the ones in fancy clothes won. Other EM docs did some studies asking patients to rate their doctors and varying the doctor attire. Basically, as long as the doctors had a symbol of being a professional (i.e. scrubs OR suit OR stethoscope) they were rated the same. Jeans without a stethoscope lost.

My point being that other specialties sometimes think about how their appearance affects their patients perception of them. Not totally the same though.
 
My license plate number is
DR_ DIK

I'm not joking and I didn't intentionally make it this.

I put an underscore so the complete number isn't there for privacy reasons. When I got this new plate number I put in facebook and a bunch of my friends wrote, "I bet it's a 4 or an 8!"
 
Get a new Tesla Cybertruck and show up to work wearing the below.
1574806612659.png
 
I hate driving so much I want a tesla. One day these loans will be gone....one day....
 
birchswing said:
I had a therapist who was really, really into cars. He was adamant that there was only one true muscle car left. I can't remember what it was. But he owned whichever it was. Anyhow, he actually took me to sit in the car. I think he really wanted a "wow" response from me I was unable to produce. We didn't drive anywhere. Just took me to the parking lot to sit in it. He did ask me for technical advice on how to install an MP3 system (this was many years ago before the iPod had taken off).

I also had a psychiatrist whose desktop picture on his computer was of some sort of sports car. Not entirely related, but he was a smoker and so he saw me once in the parking lot as I was arriving (as he would go outside for smoke breaks). At the time for a variety of reasons, I sat in the backseat of the car being driven by my relative. I didn't know he had seen me in the car in the parking lot, but he told me during the session that I needed to drive in the front seat because it made me look odd to sit in the back. He was the one who eventually fled the country because he was facing prison time for a number of DUIs and self-prescribing. What's strange is before I even knew he was a drunk driver I wrote a story for my creative writing class based on him. I'm not good at short stories so this plot will sound rather contrived. The premise was a mildly unhappy psychiatrist listening to patients all day at a community clinic and the patient stories start to blur together. He starts using pat responses. He's worried about a report he has to write for the clinic. He keeps staring off at the desktop picture of the car and every once in a while looking out the window at his lesser car in the parking lot. On the way home from work he buys a Porsche. He has an accident leaving the dealership in which he's hit by an intoxicated person. It turns out to be one of the patients he had seen that day, who had specifically asked him about driving on that medication and was given the go-ahead. (I warned you this was contrived.) The psychiatrist loses his temper and punches the patient and tells him no one will ever believe him. He drives the car home and has no plan on how to hide it from his wife. He calls his patient's cell number and finds out he's at the hospital taken there by EMTs where he's told them what happened. The story ends with him unplugging the monitor with the desktop picture of the car and carrying it out after he's fired.

Anyhow, I wrote all of that before I knew anything about my psychiatrist's drug/alcohol problems or DUIs. Although it's not terribly prescient as in the story it's the patient who is intoxicated and runs into him.

I had all that in my head for a short story just from observing my distracted psychiatrist looking at his computer monitor with the sports car as the desktop picture.
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that sounds like a great story...
 
I think it depends on the community you practice in. If a car of the type you want is a rare sight, then I would stay away from it not just for liability and perception reasons, but for safety reasons. You never know if a violent person might decide to track you down and get revenge.

I also think a BMW/Audi/Mercedes is better to get than a Jaguar/Alpha Romeo/Maserati/Porsche. The price points are not hugely different (You can get a BMW for 40K and Jaguar for 50K) but since Jaguars/Aplha Romeos/Maseratis and other sports cars are more rare, they can be perceived as more exensive. I am not sure where Teslas fall on that scale. They're a new thing and since they're electric they can be perceived as a sign of frugality (if you're thinking long-game, anyway) or being environmentally conscious, which depending on your location can make you appear more sympathetic.

Case in point: the community I'm in is chock-full of BMWs and Audi's. Even one of my co-residents owns an Audi. However, I've only seen one, maybe two Porsches in my whole time here, and one of them is owned by a specialty surgeon. However, my clinic is also across the stress from an Italian sportscar dealership, so lol.
 
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It is, HILARIOUS, to me...how much traction this thread has had?! Perhaps I live on Mars?

I own a Jeep. There is no "pickle." Live your life, bro!
 
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downwithDTB said:
The only exception is that if you are paying your staff on the low side and dressing/driving on the high side, they might resent you. You might be able to pay less if you're seen as the doc of the poor people. You can get around this by just paying fare wages, which is reasonable if you're doing well enough to buy a BMW.
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To be honest, a Ford Focus costs 20K. A Camry costs 25K. A BMW 3-series (similar car) starts at 40K. While it's about twice the cost, it's not that big of a difference in context of a doctor's salary, and relative to the costs of running a practice. However, the public perception is that a BMW is an expensive car, and for those who do not make 6 figures, it may indeed be expensive.

Personally, I want to get a BMW when I am an attending *because* of the brand mystique. No, it will not make me a bad Mustachian because I don't splurge on almost anything otherwise, and it will be an isolated, calculated luxury. I will also probably get it used.
 
I don’t think the OP’s concern is unwarranted. A lot of people do not realize how much better high quality cars are compared to cheap cars and view people who have higher end cars as “materialistic” or “douchey”. It was something I gave some thought to before buying my E class.
 
meow1985 said:
No, it will not make me a bad Mustachian because I don't splurge on almost anything
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Have you met these Mustacians? They are certainly on the extreme side, and a BMW would be absurd to many of them. Maybe normal for most FIRE people, but the Mustachians are more of the live on $15k type of people.
 
I don't think everyone realizes that with an actual business 1099 driven income you can buy these business SUV's for what amounts to about half of the actual cost. A used SUV i was considering which costs 50k would actually cost me 25k with the current deductions and you can pay that over 4 to 5 years via monthly payments. Of course financing it via loan you would spread the payment out over 4-5 years and still deduct a percentage of the interest while lowering the year you purchase the car by the selling price of car plus tax.

Like texas said you are SILLY if your in the position and you don't consider it. What is shocking is 3 out of the 4 accountants i called around so called "business accountants" still don't really know much about this. Since i have developed quite the hobby of reading at least an hour a day on white coat and various investment websites I think over time not just me but anyone in medicine will become significantly more knowledgeable about finance than most CFP/CPAs if they choose to devote time and energy and have the interest into it.

Its the equivalent of a "doctor brain" having an Arnold Schwarzenegger's natural genetics for bodybuilding compared to the the average joe.
 
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Okay, so you get the great tax deductions which lower the price, and you get best case scenario have it as a business expense that passes the IRS audit test. You still just spent 25K on a car. That's still that much less money in your pocket for a car. A car gets you from A to B, and is a horrible monetary pit that consumes Benjamins. If you are pointing out the merits of a this tax deduction in the name of optimizing finances its the wrong answer.

Go to a few mechanics and ask what's the best, cheapest, easiest car to fix and even the one you see the least. Recently, I had one mechanic shop tell me Prius was their vote. So, go buy a used 2010 prius for 8K, and enjoy barely paying any annual maintenance costs on it. That's cheaper then the the IRS dream of the 25k SUV.
 
Sushirolls said:
Okay, so you get the great tax deductions which lower the price, and you get best case scenario have it as a business expense that passes the IRS audit test. You still just spent 25K on a car. That's still that much less money in your pocket for a car. A car gets you from A to B, and is a horrible monetary pit that consumes Benjamins. If you are pointing out the merits of a this tax deduction in the name of optimizing finances its the wrong answer.

Go to a few mechanics and ask what's the best, cheapest, easiest car to fix and even the one you see the least. Recently, I had one mechanic shop tell me Prius was their vote. So, go buy a used 2010 prius for 8K, and enjoy barely paying any annual maintenance costs on it. That's cheaper then the the IRS dream of the 25k SUV.
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Sorry, I love the Prius and everything but I wouldn't want to be rear ended by a semi truck in a Prius. I would much rather be in a Suburban or an Escalade.
 
I don't think cars are an area where we should be stingy. I think it's uber important to have a safe car no matter what. You and your loved ones deserve the best protection in the event of an accident. Just think of the amount of $$$ you've invested in your career, it's a tiny price to pay to drive a safe care. I recommend everyone check out IIHS for safety ratings.

Seems just so silly to me that there are some docs out there who have 20 year old Civics.
 
I drive a 2015 Nissan Altima and love my car. I'm definitely going to upgrade when I wear this one out, but for the time being it's reliable, drives well, is reasonably nice (for a $25k car), and I maintain it well enough that it doesn't look like a complete beater.

I'm sure some people care about the car you drive, but I'm personally not too interested in the judgments of people that care about those kinds of things.
 
shahseh22 said:
Sorry, I love the Prius and everything but I wouldn't want to be rear ended by a semi truck in a Prius. I would much rather be in a Suburban or an Escalade.
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Prius gets top scores in IIHS crash ratings. Larger heavier cars aren't inherently safer and increased moving mass increases the force (F=ma) of anyone you collide with, trading their safety for yours.
 
shahseh22 said:
Sorry, I love the Prius and everything but I wouldn't want to be rear ended by a semi truck in a Prius. I would much rather be in a Suburban or an Escalade.
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While I do think that you might have a better outcome in the above scenario (and the data will consider total neurological devastation a "better" outcome than death), I have heard, but am having difficulty verifying, that you may be significantly more likely to get into a bad accident in an SUV to begin with and that may erase any safety benefit and potentially make it worse. I'm not entirely sure, but I wouldn't bet my safety entirely on an A vs. B crash test lineup. You've gotta consider brake speed, turning agility and the human factors (such as risk homeostasic drive) of driving a vehicle with perceived increased safety.

You're definitely way more likely to kill someone else (including a pedestrian or bicyclist) driving an SUV as well. Now of course we say, better me than him, BUT, this is risk to your financial future. BUT: you're a good driver and you dont speed! That's great until you kill a young doctor on a bike swerving to avoid a drunk driver that would have killed you both. You'll definitely pay for these risks in insurance premiums. The unlikely possibility that you pay for them in an above your limit lawsuit is very low, but could be life ruining (and is lower but not zero with a Prius or c class).
 
shahseh22 said:
I don't think cars are an area where we should be stingy. I think it's uber important to have a safe car no matter what. You and your loved ones deserve the best protection in the event of an accident. Just think of the amount of $$$ you've invested in your career, it's a tiny price to pay to drive a safe care. I recommend everyone check out IIHS for safety ratings.

Seems just so silly to me that there are some docs out there who have 20 year old Civics.
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Along those same lines, life insurance is important too.

I think we all have different priorities. I'm still driving the same car I drove as an MS-4 (it was new then) and I'm fine with it. Perhaps I'll buy something new in a couple of years. But I have no interest in a BMW or Mercedes or anything else people lose their head over. As long as it gets me from one place to another and is safe (hello Volvo!), I'm good to go.

But back to the original question -- I have no interest in worrying what patients think about my car considering very, very, very few of them will actually see it.
 
I totally agree that you should drive a safe car. A 20 year old Civic may not pass the test, but check out safety ratings on a modern Civic. They are outstanding. Also look up fatality rates for sedans versus SUVs. When you factor in sluggish braking, poor handling, high center of gravity etc. the SUV is not much safer if at all. I also don't like driving the road equivalent of a houseboat.
 
Wilf said:
I don’t think the OP’s concern is unwarranted. A lot of people do not realize how much better high quality cars are compared to cheap cars and view people who have higher end cars as “materialistic” or “douchey”. It was something I gave some thought to before buying my E class.
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I am one of those people who don't realize how much better they are, but I don't consider people who own them douchey or materialstic. Everyone has different priorities. I don't even notice them (cars are generally all the same shapes), except for Volvos. I always appreciate the look of a Volvo. Personally, I always hear about more expensive cars having finicky problems and that the more moderately priced Japanese cars are more reliable. I can't drive myself, but if I did I would get a Toyota sedan of some sort. Anxiously awaiting fully self-driving cars (if they ever do actually come) to regain independence to get from A to B on my own.
 
TexasPhysician said:
Have you met these Mustacians? They are certainly on the extreme side, and a BMW would be absurd to many of them. Maybe normal for most FIRE people, but the Mustachians are more of the live on $15k type of people.
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I admit I haven't met any Mustachians in real life, but I do read the site with some regularity. And I actually do live well below my means as a resident. Many months, I put away half my take home pay and I do not moonlight.

Mustachianism, like many philosophies, is often misunderstood. It's not one size fits all, either. Rather than trying to minimize your consumption to as close to zero as it can get, it's about mindful consumption. If you're about to buy something, ask yourself first: am I buying it because everyone else has it? Because it's new and shiny and 1% better (even when my old one is perfectly good)? Is there a way to put it off, thrift it, buy it on deep discount? Is there a do-it-yourself option? I do that all the time, so I identify as a Mustachian.

It's ok to have luxuries as a Mustachian, and even Mr. Money Mustache himself enjoys high-end laptops and organic produce. You just have to be out of debt first and not make it a mindless habit. (Luxury is Just Another Weakness)

If I were going into debt on top of my student debt to buy a souped-up BMW so I can *look* like I've got it made, that would be another story.

But I acknowledge that a BMW is an expensive toy. One I like for personal and maybe even silly reasons. But I can have an expensive toy if I don't let it go to my head and take myself too seriously.

Ok, end rant, lol.
 
meow1985 said:
I admit I haven't met any Mustachians in real life, but I do read the site with some regularity. And I actually do live well below my means as a resident. Many months, I put away half my take home pay and I do not moonlight.

Mustachianism, like many philosophies, is often misunderstood. It's not one size fits all, either. Rather than trying to minimize your consumption to as close to zero as it can get, it's about mindful consumption. If you're about to buy something, ask yourself first: am I buying it because everyone else has it? Because it's new and shiny and 1% better (even when my old one is perfectly good)? Is there a way to put it off, thrift it, buy it on deep discount? Is there a do-it-yourself option? I do that all the time, so I identify as a Mustachian.

It's ok to have luxuries as a Mustachian, and even Mr. Money Mustache himself enjoys high-end laptops and organic produce. You just have to be out of debt first and not make it a mindless habit. (Luxury is Just Another Weakness)

If I were going into debt on top of my student debt to buy a souped-up BMW so I can *look* like I've got it made, that would be another story.

But I acknowledge that a BMW is an expensive toy. One I like for personal and maybe even silly reasons. But I can have an expensive toy if I don't let it go to my head and take myself too seriously.

Ok, end rant, lol.
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Most Mustacians that I’ve met are much more extreme than you describe. I see your views as much more like the FIRE movement.

See The Man Who Gets His Cars for Free

He uses a BMW photo to explain why any luxury vehicle is a huge waste. Ideally, people should use public transportation or bikes (no cars) for cost purposes.

If you must use a vehicle, you should purchase one for under $3k and pay a bit to make it functional.

The difference in this vs buying a BMW over 10 years results in $100k savings after you include higher depreciation, higher maintenance, higher insurance costs, etc. he does the math in the article. $100k is the difference in retiring years earlier for most Mustacians. These major decisions are key to true Mustacianism. Keep in mind that the Mustacian following is not geared towards physicians, and he admits this in other posts.
 
One of many mild splurges I plan to make next year is purchasing a ~3 year old ~30k miles mid-size Audi/Mercedes for ~35k. People could certainly assume that I'm balling despite that being the same price as a loaded new Accord or an average new non-luxury large truck/SUV. But I'm likely joining a very large physician group so it doesn't matter what the staff think about my finances. And during residency sometimes patients and staff notice that I wear nice shoes but I don't think that's affected anything.

The whole super extreme FIRE thing seems awful. Enjoy your life. And I've never previously heard of Mustachians but sounds like "How to FIRE when you have no marketable skills and are therefore severely income limited." Maybe it should be called financial anorexia--the more you restrict, the more delirious/delusional you get.
 
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FlowRate said:
One of many mild splurges I plan to make next year is purchasing a ~3 year old ~30k miles mid-size Audi/Mercedes for ~35k. People could certainly assume that I'm balling despite that being the same price as a loaded new Accord or an average new non-luxury large truck/SUV. But I'm likely joining a very large physician group so it doesn't matter what the staff think about my finances.
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I wouldn’t think twice about it in your situation.

There may be regional differences as well. I think I could buy a loaded F150 in Texas and no one would care. The second I buy an entry level used Mercedes, I’d hear staff asking for a raise.
 
Ever since Residency, I've leased new mid-level cars so that I don't have to spend time at the dealer. Unless you have a luxury car dealer that provides pickup service for oil changes/etc or an assistant to drop & pick up your car off for you, frequent trips for maintenance/repairs will eat up a significant amount of your monthly payment savings, not necessarily in cost, but in time spent dealing with it.
 
keifernny2 said:
Ever since Residency, I've leased new mid-level cars so that I don't have to spend time at the dealer. Unless you have a luxury car dealer that provides pickup service for oil changes/etc or an assistant to drop & pick up your car off for you, frequent trips for maintenance/repairs will eat up a significant amount of your monthly payment savings, not necessarily in cost, but in time spent dealing with it.
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I dont understand this thinking that like all cars over 5 years old are breaking or requiring routine maintenance every month. I have a 2013 Accord thats at 93k miles right now that hasn’t needed anything besides routine oil changes, brake pads, transmission fluid replaced once (for routine maintenance schedule). Toyota’s are also notorious for taking huge amounts of abuse and still running. Probably gonna last another 100k miles easy (I’ll just keep using it as my daily driver since I don’t care if it gets dinged around/birds poop on it/etc if I decide to buy a nice car in a few years).
Maybe buy a reliable car?
 
Let me clarify one point. I probably drive more than most right now for business related activities as i am easily pushing 1000 miles per month due to multiple locations i am working. The driving increases my chances for some type of vehicle accident. Some of this involves back roads and it snows where I live so that is another consideration. I don't think having a 50k dollar, 2018-2019, with 8-9k miles already USED mercedes/bmw SUV which are rated as top safety plus vehicles by the IHS especially with a business deduction is a bad choice with what I am doing right now.

Had a friend in medical school who drove a mercedes SUV get hit by a camry sedan drunk driver at 60mph head on. My friend walked away with just minor bruising and the other guy didn't make it.

I'll be driving an older vehicle to the site where i have my PP to avoid staff raise issues so that would solve that problem.
 
Why is this such a big deal lol..none of the cars being discussed are even that out of the blue or luxurious..if you’re talking about a car <100k..it’s really not a big deal..obviously it would be kinda odd to be driving like a Ferrari to work but a bmw/Audi/Mercedes are not even that expensive depending on the model and are relatively commonplace..you can get a used one for 20k in some cases..but even if it’s 60k that’s not even that much on an income of 300k..
 
finalpsychyear said:
I am in a bit of a pickle. I am giving up by 350 dollar lease SUV in 3-4 months due to lease end. I was told by a few attendings starting out in PP to make sure you don't drive anything too fancy as you'll be noticed by peers/patients. I do know a psychiatrist in a nearby area who drives a maserati and patients mention him by " the maserati psych doc".

I don't want to be sued more or get less referrals because of this. I am also in process of "joining" a 10+ member counseling group where they will send me all their referrals exclusively as I will be on site 1 or 2 days a month at their location.

From a business perspective I drive a lot as I have a few sites I go back and forth on so around 1000 miles a months of business related miles. My accountant told me I would be a fool to not use the SUV deduction and buy something and get nearly all of it expensed this year. I don't know the impact of this decision as I sorta would love to get something a little nicer than a toyota SUV but worry if I upgrade to the mercedes/bmw/audi/tesla SUV that all run 50-70k used if its a factor in the above concerns. I could however get a second car with the SUV purchase which which would be a used old camry/corolla/honda and drive that to sites that I have concerns like my PP or other areas.

Any input appreciated as I am entering year 4 as a PP attending in 2020.

Edit: I prefer the viewpoint of a "struggling or poor psychiatrist". Staff seeing your success may want more raises/bonuses than otherwise.
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I hope you buy what you want and are okay with it. I would imagine your patients will be too. I find that--far less important than what car you drive or what clothes you wear--is that you look your patients in the eye and demonstrate respect. It will be reciprocated, most times.
 
I doubt type of car is going to matter all that much unless you're doing something like concierge or cash only with your primary patient population being part of the 1%. In that case I'd suspect that not driving an expensive car could hurt your bottom line.

psychapp121 said:
Why is this such a big deal lol..none of the cars being discussed are even that out of the blue or luxurious..if you’re talking about a car <100k..it’s really not a big deal..obviously it would be kinda odd to be driving like a Ferrari to work but a bmw/Audi/Mercedes are not even that expensive depending on the model and are relatively commonplace..you can get a used one for 20k in some cases..but even if it’s 60k that’s not even that much on an income of 300k..
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter if you get a Mercedes or BMW for $30k or less, they're brands that the layperson will see as "elite". The issue also isn't if a "fancy" car is out of the price range of a doctor, it's that a more expensive car would result in contempt from employees or patients who will likely have a fraction of the income physicians do.
 
I may buy a 2012 civic with 60k miles on it for 5K and will use it for the PP. The other vehicle whatever it ends up being will be used for the rest of the time. Staff raises and patient concerns completely AVOIDED. Something to note my PP is in a small town of 10k people so i WILL be noticed regardless.

Bottom line: having a nice car in a PP setting if your not a cash/concierge type of catering service HAS ONLY PITFALLS FOR PP
 
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hebel said:
Ancedotely, our faculty parking lot is full of BMW's, Mercedes, and Audi's. I don't think it would be abnormal to own that kind of vehicle.
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My faculty lot has its share of the usual BMW/Benz/Lexus/etc, but less so than other specialties and probably less so than the typical upper middle class. But the majority are the usual SUV or beaters driven by the average person. The BMW/Benz/Lexus/etc faculty are pretty vocal when they see residents driving those cars -- in an envious way.
 
TexasPhysician said:
I wouldn’t think twice about it in your situation.

There may be regional differences as well. I think I could buy a loaded F150 in Texas and no one would care. The second I buy an entry level used Mercedes, I’d hear staff asking for a raise.
Click to expand...

They'd notice a King Ranch though.
 
Does you car matter?

I'm going to throw some evidenced-based data. Based on your mannerisms, hygiene, and the way you dress THIS DOES MATTER in terms of credibility in front of juries.

So does the car matter? Most patients won't see what car you drive, so in that sense it shouldn't matter, but can it? I can see it doing so only if your car was so over-the-top that it blared to patients, colleagues and staff that this is your car.
 
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