doing an independent PhD in the middle of an MD

[CMVpromoter]

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I am worried that I won't be able to get into an md-phd program because a lot of the applicants just seem amazing and beyond me.

Anyways, I am committed to the idea of being a physician-scientist, so is it possible to apply to a PhD program in the middle of an MD-only program?

I'm aware that medical students can apply for mstp after taking a year or two of medical school, but this isn't what I'm talking about (since I'm sure those applicants probably also have amazing credentials).

I understand the MD wouldn't be paid for since it wouldn't be a formal mstp. Do medical schools like this? Is this a reasonable pathway? Are there a lot of barriers against it?

One more question, how does the debt work in this case? I would have student loans for MS1 or MS2... are they put on hold while doing the PhD?

 

[Neuronix]

One more question, how does the debt work in this case? I would have student loans for MS1 or MS2... are they put on hold while doing the PhD?

Your wouldn't have to pay the loans. However, the interest on all unsubsidized loans, i.e. most of your debt, will continue to accumulate.

Can you do it? It is likely. Would you really want to? I doubt it.

 

[chartero]

Why not do it on its own before or after the M.D.? In the latter case, maybe best after a residency in a competitive specialty, so you were applying with your sub-Is and all fresh. Unless your Ph.D. research would substantially enhance your competitiveness. If you did it after residency you could balance it with employment as a clinician or an M.D. researcher. You might also be interested in residencies with built-in research components.

Edited to add: Highly relevant recent thread here: can I get a Ph.D as a post-doc?

 

[CMVpromoter]

Thanks for your response.

I like the idea of doing it before an MD, but as I've read on this forum, people have had bad experiences doing this.

 

[bd4727]

Are you already in medical school? If not, why the deafest attitude if you haven't even applied yet? My experience is that if people are mature and really can show that they want to do an MD/PhD badly, they can get into a program somewhere. It may not be an MSTP funded one, but there are many good non funded programs out there.

 

[CMVpromoter]

How does these non-funded ones work? We pay for MD but PhD is free?

Also, isn't there a way to suspend accumulation of interest while doing a PhD in the middle of an MD?

 

[calvinNhobbes]

Honestly, if you can't get into an MSTP funded MD/PhD program, I wouldn't recommend doing an official PhD. If you still want to do academic medicine there will be plenty of time for research as a regular ol' MD, including 1-2 year research fellowships for med students (usually funded), academic residencies with 1-2 years of research, fellowships with 1-2 years of research. Basically you can do 3-6 years of research built into your regular MD training that is usually funded at about twice the stipend of a grad student or more.

 

[scotsdoc54]

This is funny that this thread came up, as I was thinking about unfunded MD/PhD programs.

My state school has an unfunded MD/PhD program, and apparently a good number of people do it. Is the debt still manageable for people when they get out? I guess obviously you would have 3-4 years of some income with the PhD, but you would still have the debt during residency and after. Plus academics pays less right, especially if you're research heavy?

Can unfunded folks apply for F30's? That's the only way I can see an unfunded program being attractive. Just my thoughts anywho. I'm not really looking into MD/PhD so it doesn't really matter.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

Is the debt still manageable for people when they get out?

Sure, it is just even worse than regular MDs, which already sucks.

 

[JLC]

there are other ways to get funding besides MSTP that can also help for your md portion

 

[Neuronix]

Can unfunded folks apply for F30's?

Yes, they can. It makes the whole thing a bit more feasible. Typically with an F30 you're going to be unfunded those first two years though.

 

[scotsdoc54]

there are other ways to get funding besides MSTP that can also help for your md portion

Care to divulge?


Neuronix: Thanks for the reply. One of my buddies who's doing an unfunded MD/PhD program is applying for a training grant from the NHLBI. Do individual institutes have training grants as well?

 

[Neuronix]

Care to divulge?

For years I have been hearing the possibility of getting MD/PhD funding other than the two main NIH MD/PhD grants I'll mention later. See List A here:

http://www.aamc.org/students/considering/research/mdphd/fundingformdphd.pdf

I have been asking people for years if they have ever been considered for or received serious MD/PhD funding from a non-F30/F31 source. By that I mean, coverage for med school and stipend, and not just a graduate stipend or a few thousand dollars supplement in grad school.

I would be very happy if someone could give me some information about other sources that definitely sponsor MD/PhD students. In the past I've read posts that claim an institute will fund MD/PhDs, but when I investigate their website I'll find MD/PhDs to be clearly forbidden from applying. Even that "List A" seems to be seriously out of date or misleading to me, as I've not seen one of the institutes websites listed there clearly state that they will fund an MD/PhD student's entire expenses for some number of years. For example, the HHMI barred MD/PhDs from applying for predoctoral grants about 10 years ago, but somehow they're still on that list!

Neuronix: Thanks for the reply. One of my buddies who's doing an unfunded MD/PhD program is applying for a training grant from the NHLBI. Do individual institutes have training grants as well?

See my blog entry (Dude, where's my funding?): http://forums.studentdoctor.net/blog.php?b=1261

MD/PhDs can only be funded by two mechanisms through the institutes of which I'm aware, the F30 (http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/pa-files/PA-05-151.html) and the F31 for minority students (http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/pa-files/PA-00-069.html).

The NHLBI does support the F30 (under a separate link http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/pa-files/PA-09-232.html), though few institutes do. The F31 for minority students is much more broadly supported.

 

[fibrosis mudfud]

NHLBI actually does fund F30's but for some reason it is listed separately from the other institutes that fund F30's.

 

[Neuronix]

NHLBI actually does fund F30's but for some reason it is listed separately from the other institutes that fund F30's.

Yep, you're right! http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/pa-files/PA-09-232.html. It's even in my blog post. Derp. Amazing what one forgets over the years.

Modifying my previous post...