Doing it for the money?

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Future GI Guy

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I'd like to pose a question.

Picture a different United States, where physicians make the same amount of money as teachers, have NO college or medical school debt at all (and have no medical malpractice insurance because no one sues), and every man woman and child has health coverage.

Would you trade our present health system with this more idealistic one?

I'm not asking about the merits of such a proposal (I know it's pretty unrealistic), but I think this gets at whether we do this job for the money, or to insure the best health care for all.
 
Though physicians in the EU generally make a significant amount more than teachers, this utopia you speak of is called Europe! Minimal fees are paid by students in the medical schools, no debt, no stress to enter high monetary yield specialities; you only go in if you have a desire and interest. I'm currently in Europe now studying medicine, and I'm forced to come back to the states basically to pay the 150,000 I'll have accumulated in loans. Its a vicious cycle, and it means a poor standard of living for the next ten years. I'm not greedy, I just want to practice infectious disease, and have a great job but the United States has me by the cojones...and its no different for any american med school doc...
 
(Assuming we're in this idealistic world) I'd do it for free! Seriously! I love medicine and I'd do it for free if I could. Now, being that we live in the world that we do, this idea is impossible, but you can see how I feel about medicine.

Peace
 
Or..the flip-side to the question...would you go into teaching if teachers made a salary similar to physicians?????

Having taught high school science this past year....I honestly don't think I would do it again...no matter how much the salary was increased. Well, okay..I could be bought..but it would have to be a significant increase in salary!

just a thought 😎
 
I've heard the in countries like France, the docs make about 40 G's a year, but that is relatively a lot for their very cheap living costs. They have one of the best health care systems in the world, though, proving socialized medicine isn't such a bad idea.

Of course,how many U.S. docs would trade their 6 figure salaries for universal health care? I'd like to think I would, but I haven't seen a 6 figure salary yet,nor gone through the trenches of residency. (by the way, residency is reputably much less grueling, although longer, in France).
 
To answer your question, ask any physician who practices in Canada. That's how the system works there. The plus side is that everyone's got health insurance, but the flip side is that everyone's treated as if they were at county facilities. If you miss an appointment, good luck getting another one in less than three months. Unless it's immediately life threatening, you're s@#! out of luck. I dunno, would you guys trade our system for theirs? I personally wouldn't, as a physician or a patient.
 
Repeatloop, are you serious? One of the many current health care scandles here in England is that patients with lesser problems are being operated on before those with life threatening conditions just to get the waiting lists down to a politically acceptable level.

I asked a reg. when a patient that came into clinic with a likely malignant ovary would get her surgery. I was told she would get it within 6 weeks if she was lucky. Yes, lucky.

Some guy who robbed a train, and killed a conductor fled to Argentina. He came back to England when he started having strokes. His son "allowed" a newspaper to show a picture of him in his cell to show what horrible conditions in which his father was dying. Well, it looked very much like one of the nicer private rooms in my hospital.

Everyone thinks that socialized medicine is such a wonderful thing. It isn't. How would you like your parent/grandparent/self to wait 18 months for joint replacement surgery? And they don't get on the list until the surgery is already necessary. How would you like to wait 2 weeks to see a cancer specialist when you have found a lump (after already waiting a week to see your gp)? Then waiting upto another 6 weeks for surgery to see if the lump is malignant? Oh, and you operation may be cancelled at any time? I didn't think so. Well, that is what you will get with socialized medicine.

Politicians have their place in society, but it definately isn't running health care!
 
Socialized medicine, like communism, might be nice in theory to some but it simply doesn't work. I would hate to see the US adopt socialized medicine because we are the number one place for medicine in the world. Like it or not, just like the rest of the economy, greed motivates health care to be better in the US. People are always complaining about the pharmaceutical companies charging so much for their medicines but a lot of those medicines would not even exist if it wasn't for those companies. Why can't the government develop all the new drugs and sell them cheaply? I promise you that if the government took over the drug industry and tried to develop drugs, we as taxpayers would pay a lot more for a lot crappier drugs then the drugs we get from the pharm companies. Take a look at the fiasco of the human genome project where the government spent hundreds of millions more for something that a private company was able to spend a fraction on and get much faster. I consider myself pretty liberal but I know that the government is wasteful and stupid. There are some things that the government does need to because nobody else can do it, one is provide health care to all of those that cannot afford it, but believe me, we should keep the government involvement in health care as well as all other fields to a minimum. Just look at how incompetently medicaid programs are being run now. Most politicians don't care about the big picture or things in the long term, they want instant gratification. I would hate to see our health care system in their hands.

In terms of income importance, I wanted to relay something that I read in a book. In the first third of our career, income might seem very important in your lives because of the amount of debt that we are getting into. People don't like to talk about it but I think that expected income does play some role, whether it be minor or major, in people's choices for specialties. Not even being afford to pay for living expenses early in your career without having to borrow for it is very stressful, having more money right now is equal to having more freedom. Studies have shown that students with more debt are more likely to go into higher paying specialties even though most students report on surveys that income was not a deciding factor in their career choice. In the middle third of your career, income's importance decreases as job security becomes number one and job satisfaction becomes much more important as well. In the last third of your careers, job satisfaction becomes the most important thing to most of us. This is true for people in other industries as well and this last phase is why I think that physicians have such great jobs. Think about the number of people in other jobs that decide to retire early when their kids graduate and work volunteer jobs or go abroad to help people in order to find fulfillment in their lives. This is something that is already a part of most physicians lives, you don't have to retire from corporate america to help people, you are probably already doing it as a physician. I think that it is very important to think about how happy you will be not only in the first third of your career but the last third of your career as well when picking a specialty and picking a career in general.
 
Check the med school costs in Canada these days - they may not be as cheap as you think. Each system has its pros and cons. Maybe a new one would work better. Either way, as some of you have said, medicine is my passion, and I'll do it regardless of pay (beyond the ability to pay off those darn loans!). 😛
 
I think the intent of my original question was mis-judged.

I am not, nor will I ever be, a proponent of socialized medicine.

I happen to believe that things are pretty good now, though they can get better, and I find myself continually amazed at the amount of research that is pumped out every week. It's truly driven by a free-market economy.

However, the point of the question is similar to a different question:

If you won 10 million dollars, what would you do for a living?

My answer is, of course:
I would be a physician.

The reward of medicine is not monetary, as I hope everyone would agree. The reward comes when you introduce a new mom to her newborn child, when you tell someone they're cured of cancer, or, sadly, when you provide pain relief to someone at the end of their life. The ability to provide comfort is a tremendous reward almost entirely unique to the health-care industry.
 
GI Joe,

I agree with you 100%. If my main goal is to make money in life, I would have joined my other colleagues in business. It's way easier, I wouldn't have a big loan to pay off, and I'll earn money right after undergrad. Don't get me wrong, money will always be a factor in medicine, it's just not the main factor for me. However, if I was only paid $60,000 a year, it's probably not worth all the hard work and effort we all had to put in undergrad, med, and residency.
 
I know this isn't the point of the thread but I have to say something. The Canadian system here sucks. That's why I want to study and practice in the US. I'm willing to pay the 30k a year or whatever it is to practice in the US because I just hate the system here. Everyone in Canada think the system is da bomb but it's not. In my province, unions rule the health care system. We recently had the union of OTs, RTs, pharmacists, and other technicians stage a two day illegal strike because they wanted a 24% raise in wages. And recently the nurses banned overtime b/c they wanted a 42% increase in wages. In a backwards, leftwing society, unions rule and that sucks
 
Originally posted by Future GI Guy:
•
The reward of medicine is not monetary, as I hope everyone would agree. The reward comes when you introduce a new mom to her newborn child, when you tell someone they're cured of cancer, or, sadly, when you provide pain relief to someone at the end of their life. The ability to provide comfort is a tremendous reward almost entirely unique to the health-care industry.•
Click to expand...

I'd have to say I partially agree.

The reward of medicine is not ENTIRELY monetary, but my guess is that the prospect of high financial compensation is not lost upon even the most altruistic individuals. If being a doctor meant being paid a high school teacher's salary (no disrespect to the profession, I just think they are grossly underpaid), then I might rethink my decision, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.

That said, there are soooo many other factors that come into play in deciding upon a medical career that salary may indeed be a relatively small issue to some people.

Bottom line is that different people will prioritize the many pros and cons of a medical career differently. I say each to their own, as long as he/she does their job well.
 
It's heartening to hear that y'all consider the intrinsic values of being a doc more substantial than money (of course everyone would say that, eh?). Yeah, I'd still go into med. if it didn't pay. The fact that pay is high is just an added plus. Well, besides the fact that we deserve it for paying through med. school and having to work through unfavorable conditions as residents. Essentially, if the system happened to be a bit socialist, I'd still go into it because then the intrinsic motivations would be even higher. However, I like ours just fine 😀 .

Reatloop is right. The system you described is a bit European, although most of them also can be very highly paid. But since tertiary education is free, the ones who enter medicine in the first place are the ones who really want to. Money is rarely a factor, just intelligence. However, each country has it's own share of medical problems. The UK especially is facing a bit of crisis in health care because of various reasons that I haven't researched - but one of them is understaffing. Ireland is also facing understaffing and shortage of facilities, which compound their problems. But generally, their medical systems promote and educate good doctors. The US system surely has its share of faults, but I don't think you could possibly get a perfect system.

There's the prestige factor of being a doc, too. Maybe in France it's more socialistic (I dunno), but the French really hold the profession in high regard. If I was paid as much as a teacher, I might rethink as well because of financial obligations, but I'd probably be a doc. anyway because that's the only thing I can see myself doing.

I think in the US, all us ambitious future-docs go into the world thinking that maybe we're the ones who can change the system for the better, make policies more efficient, and provide the best possible care for patients. Idealistic i know, but the root of that is we do it to attempt to ensure the best health care for all - regardless of where in the world you study/practice. If not, then they do it for money and end up being miserable the rest of their lives (serves them right 😛 )
 
At the same time teachers don't have to get a professional degree, they don't have four years of med school, or residency. They work 8-3, they have summers off, they get a pension after they retire when they're in their mid-50's. Doctors work harder in college, kill themselves in med school, and then work like slaves as interns and residents. They also work all hours of the day and they work all year round and get no pension. Everyone couldn't be a doctor, but most anyone could be a teacher (not necessarily a good one though). That's my take on it.
 
Originally posted by leorl:
•But since tertiary education is free, the ones who enter medicine in the first place are the ones who really want to. Money is rarely a factor, just intelligence. •
Click to expand...

This is not so in the UK. Universities are now charging fees. Most of the people who get into "Uni" are from moneyed backgrounds. There is still a cultural system that you have to have money to get a higher education. There is an attempt to get students from a mix a backgrounds now with the two new medical schools to be opened soon.

And BTW, if I were independently wealthy, I'd still go into medicine.
 
Whoever said that teachers were "underpaid" is totally wrong. My older sister was a teacher (and quit after she married a doctor, but that's not the point). The point is that while she and all other teachers complained about making "next to nothing," she had just breezed through only 4 years of college with a mediocre GPA, got every single holiday, snow day, and 3 months during the summer completely off!! And on top of that, they only "work" from 9am to 3pm!!! For the work they do, they get paid really well!!!! 😀
 
I met a lawyer who "retired" from his law career a couple years after graduating from U Chicago and became a teacher for a NYC high school. He told me that when his lawyer friends are raking in the dough and ask him whether he regrets leaving law, he tells them that he calculated it out and he actually makes more money per hour as a teacher then he did when he was a high priced lawyer working for a firm.

Those greedy teachers, you know that every one of them became a teacher for the money.... 😡 j/k
 
Originally posted by Sparkles:
•Whoever said that teachers were "underpaid" is totally wrong. My older sister was a teacher (and quit after she married a doctor, but that's not the point). The point is that while she and all other teachers complained about making "next to nothing," she had just breezed through only 4 years of college with a mediocre GPA, got every single holiday, snow day, and 3 months during the summer completely off!! And on top of that, they only "work" from 9am to 3pm!!! For the work they do, they get paid really well!!!! 😀•
Click to expand...


I'm not an authority on the teaching profession, but I thought 9-3 was just classroom time. That doesn't include work outside the classroom such as grading papers and preparing course material. I read somewhere that a teacher works anywhere from 60 - 70 hrs a week (i think this was in USNWR). IMO, that's a lot of work, and in light of the current avg salary, teachers are more than deserving of 3 months off.

But please correct me if my numbers are wrong...
 
Ok, if teacher works 9-3, it means he or she is a mediocre teacher and doesn't prepare him/herself for classes for the next day. The result is poorely educated kids. The friend of mine is a teacher and she does work 60-70 h/week in order to give kids a good education.
BTW I count mediocre teachers between my acquantances also.
 
Well I would consider both opinions right.It depends on who the teacher is and how they teach. I had an honors chem teacher who was a great teacher and only taught "9-3". He had binders on notes for every lesson and and large test bank compiled. He didn't have to prepare his lessons( except for experiments) or tests since his first year teaching. Though he did keep busy as a volunteer firefighter and EMT. Great guy, I still keep in touch with him.

On another note, do all teachers really work "9-3". I mean some of my HS teachers had half their day off and others had a full schedule. I guess its in the subject you teach and who else teaches the classes. One other note about teachers, lets not forget about tenure. Besides I think that as a whole teachers can be underpaid, but where I'm from some make nearly six figures and they're still complaining that they're underpaid. Maybe I should forget med school and become a teacher, better yet an administrator.
 
Originally posted by Annette:
•This is not so in the UK. Universities are now charging fees. •
Click to expand...
I was under the impression that this fee is approximately 1500 British pounds for one university year. That is next to nothing compared to what we, here in the US, are paying. In fact, that is approximately the cost of my textbooks only, just for ONE semester! I was wondering if my information is correct and if you could confirm how much money is required of uni students these days.

I still think that the English system of higher education lends itself to attract a broader scope of economic backgrounds. Whereas here, essentially, you still need quite a bit of money (or be willing to take out hefty loans) for higher education. I realize that the English system is now charging, but the fee still pales in comparison to the US fees. At the same time, the quality of education is debatable as well. The rigorous A Levels at the high school level that the English go through is not met by any analogous exams here. However, IMHO, the uni education there may have something lacking due to the early specialization required of their matriculants. What do you think?
 
Praying4MD, I'm not sure if the rate is 1500 pounds - I suspect it differs depending on school, but you're right. Essentially that is NOTHING compared to what we have to pay. I looked at some UK schools to apply to (don't think I will go for them though) and for international students, it's around 7,000 to 9,000 pounds which is fairly cheaper than some US schools, but when you include airfare and living expenses, it's not that cheaper.

however, if you are a UK citizen then it would be significantly less. The tertiary students are subsidized by the government (govt. pays their tuition somewhat), or they receive EU subsidization (not sure if UK joined the EU). But I know that in the UK and Ireland, and probably elsewhere in Europe, the cultures are very much against Elitism, so if fees were required, they would be no where near what we have to pay for tuition.

As far as anything being lacking in their education because of early specialization...No, I don't think so. They might miss out on the all-around nature of US students (sometimes), but I've observed that it does not make much difference in the quality of education they receive, nor in their personalities. As a matter of fact, students have a little more time to explore outside pursuits - extracurriculars, sports, etc. Not to say they don't have other academic pursuits, but if they're interested, they do their own research/reading. Honestly, who doesn't go through undergrad years basically teaching themselves material? It makes little difference whether you take classes in it or not 🙄

Also not saying that being a teacher is pointless 🙂. If this were my world, good teachers would make a million bucks - then you'd ensure that every teacher was a good teacher and raise the quality of education (very generally speaking, of course). I'll stick to med 🙂.
 
Many high school teachers especially... work very very little. Most of them have "teacher aids" to grade papers and in addition, they have a planning period where they have an hour break, (as well as a nice lunch break) to do all the "planning" they need. I remember some of the teachers at my high school would beat the door down and drive off as soon as the bell rings. Those folks are home by 3pm daily. Therefore... It's actually about 5-6 hours of work, 5 days a week with a spring break, 3 month summer break, week long thanksgiving break, and 2 weeks Christmas break and about 25k (?) a year?? That is INCREDIBLE money. Teachers need to quit complaining!!!!
 
Praying, yes, the fees are nothing compared to what US students pay. The house officers complain quite loudly about being in debt to the tune of 10,000 pounds. (I just laughed at them 😉 )

Still, despite the relatively low fees, students still need a source of income to pay for living expenses. And although it seems low fees would attract a wide socio-economic range, there is much elitism here. Also, some students can't afford to do the A levels to get into Uni. (A levels require 2 years of "college").
 
You say teachers need to grade apaers and prepare, etc. Yet lets say there are 8 periods a day, teachers work about 5 of those. So there is time there. BTW, most jobs require outside preparation (including MD's). This is not exclusive to the teaching profession.
 
Thanks for the clarification Annette and leorl. I agree with both of your assessments of the system and educational situation. Wow, an actual discussion and exchange of information rather than name-calling banter full of insults-- I'm impressed. 🙂
 
Teachers working 60-70 hrs a week?! C'mon people, let's be realistic about this. I would say that that is the exception, not the norm; and even at that, those that are working 60-70 hrs are doing it on rare occasions. Assuming they get in at 7am, that would be 7 to 7,( 7 to 9 for 70 hrs). Drive by any school 2 hours after the final bell rings and just look at the parking lots; they're empty (aside from the cars of extracurrics/sports participants). Or better yet, walk through the halls and try and find teachers still there working. You might find a couple of them here and there, but do you really think they'll still be there at 7pm?? And no, I don't think that if the bell rings at 2:30 that these teachers are taking work home to do another 5 hours of work, 5 days a week.

10 weeks off in the summer, 1 week Xmas, 1 week February, 1 week April, every 3-day weekend, snow days.

I don't want to bash teachers because I have a great deal of respect for what they do. But the reality of the situation is that there are plenty of stressful jobs out there that don't have 13 GUARANTEED weeks of vacation per year.

Homer J.

*************
 
most teachers don't work 60-70 hours a week.
my mother-in-law is a teacher and she constantly jokes with me saying "i can't believe you want to be a doctor and work 60-70 hours a week." IF they DID work that much, then logically most women who also must manage large househholds and and cook meals for large families and do other time-consuming domestic work would not become teachers. it wouldn't make economic sense.
not to say though that teachers don't do valuable work, it just isn't 60-70 hours a week.
 
interesting thread.

Like many here I would still go into medicine if it paid what a teacher does IF I didn't have loans or insurance to worry about.

But I have to say, I would also consider teaching if it were paid what a doctor is. There are lots of ways to help people and make a difference. I prefer one that lets me take care of my family. I like teaching but ruled it out because I knew I would become disillusioned at asking my family to sacrafice so that I could "make a difference".

I'm not money grubbing, but I am a realist. I realize there are lots of places that I can have my cake and eat it too...

One of the good things about our pseudo capitalisic society 🙂

mj

PS I think how much a teacher works is very dependant on how driven they are to "save" all of their students. I know teachers who DO work 70 hours a week, I also know those who don't work at all. But face it -- we are all anal retentive highly driven pre meds. Which side of that fence do you REALLY think you would fall on?
 
Had my prostrate exam a few days ago. The doc said that it was not his favorite procedure to perform (it is not my favorite to receive either). He is fairly young and works for a HMO, so I know he does not make a ton of money even after enduring all the work it took to get where he is at.
 
I would not trade our present system for universal health care, nor would I want to trade a six-figure salary for a teacher's salary (Are you out of your bloody mind???).

I will begin my second year of medical school in about a week and with at least six years to go it would be nice to see some sort of monetary return. I am not a socialist and do not want to live in a socialist system--being a physician does not mean that I should have that mentality either.

Am I doing this because I want to help people? YES. Am I also doing this because I will make money? YES. Am I, what certain socialist parties term, a Capitalist Pig? YES.
😎
 
Originally posted by groundhog:
•Had my prostrate exam a few days ago. .....•
Click to expand...

That is the funniest typo I've seen in a long time! 😀

It ipso fatso 🙂 reminds me of Archie Bunker!

--kris
 
If you are concerned about health care for all and physicians being treated farily in a new system, look into Physicians for a National Health Program at www.pnhp.org/ "Our health care system is failing. Tens of millions of people are uninsured, costs are skyrocketing, and the bureaucracy is expanding. Patchwork reforms succeed only in exchanging old problems for new ones. It is time for basic change in American medicine. We propose a national health program that would (1) fully cover everyone under a single, comprehensive public insurance program; (2) pay hospitals and nursing homes a total (global) annual amount to cover all operating expenses; (3) fund capital costs through separate appropriations; (4) pay for physicians? services and ambulatory services in any of three ways: through fee-for-service payments with a simplified fee schedule and mandatory acceptance of the national health program payment as the total payment for a service or procedure (assignment), through global budgets for hospitals and clinics employing salaried physicians, or on a per capital basis (capitation); (5) be funded, at least initially, from the same sources as at present, but with payments disbursed from a single pool; and (6) contain costs through savings on billing and bureaucracy, improved health planning, and the ability of the national health program, as the single payer for services to establish overall spending limits. Through this proposal, we hope to provide a pragmatic framework for public debate of fundamental health-policy reform. (N Engl J Med 1989; 320: 102-8.)"
 
A couple of notes: first and foremost, teachers really do work 60 hours a week. I don't know where some of these people are from, but my mother is teacher, and there's no such thing as a "teacher's aide" at her school. She grades all her own papers, must write up and turn in lesson plans for all her classes in advance each week, must attend open houses and parent conferences in the afternoons after school, must be there from 7:30 AM until 4 PM (at the minimum, but usually later), must be available for afterschool tutoring, and even though that summer break might SEEM like a three-month vacation, it's liberally sprinkled with in-service days and meetings. Not to mention the insane amount of touchy-feely "multiple intelligence mainstreaming sensitivity training" crap and bureaucratic voodoo paperwork that the whole system is just bogged down with. And teacher exams are harder than you might think to pass. You'd have to be an utter fool, or absolutely love your job, to even consider being a teacher in this day and age.

And as to the previous question, what would I do if I had $10 million? Why, of course, two chicks at the same time. 😀 But as we all know, it's not just about me and my dream of doing nothing.
 
I just felt the need to comment on all the comment about teachers. The fact is my dad is a teacher, he has to be at work at 7:30 and while he his kids leave at 2:30 or whatever he rarely leaves the building before 4:00 or 4:30, and most of his colleagues do as well. And as far as the planning time and all that jazz, my dad has a 1/2 hour planning period...also known as lunch. Trust me, my dad has worked hard as a teacher every day of his life. My mom was a teacher and asa recall she had a similar day, until she became an adminstrator and work 10-12 hour days. And to top it off, they are in mississippi, which has some the lowest paid teachers in the country!
 
Originally posted by leorl:
•It's heartening to hear that y'all consider the intrinsic values of being a doc more substantial than money (of course everyone would say that, eh?). Yeah, I'd still go into med. if it didn't pay. The fact that pay is high is just an added plus. Well, besides the fact that we deserve it for paying through med. school and having to work through unfavorable conditions as residents. Essentially, if the system happened to be a bit socialist, I'd still go into it because then the intrinsic motivations would be even higher. However, I like ours just fine 😀 .

Reatloop is right. The system you described is a bit European, although most of them also can be very highly paid. But since tertiary education is free, the ones who enter medicine in the first place are the ones who really want to. Money is rarely a factor, just intelligence. However, each country has it's own share of medical problems. The UK especially is facing a bit of crisis in health care because of various reasons that I haven't researched - but one of them is understaffing. Ireland is also facing understaffing and shortage of facilities, which compound their problems. But generally, their medical systems promote and educate good doctors. The US system surely has its share of faults, but I don't think you could possibly get a perfect system.

There's the prestige factor of being a doc, too. Maybe in France it's more socialistic (I dunno), but the French really hold the profession in high regard. If I was paid as much as a teacher, I might rethink as well because of financial obligations, but I'd probably be a doc. anyway because that's the only thing I can see myself doing.

I think in the US, all us ambitious future-docs go into the world thinking that maybe we're the ones who can change the system for the better, make policies more efficient, and provide the best possible care for patients. Idealistic i know, but the root of that is we do it to attempt to ensure the best health care for all - regardless of where in the world you study/practice. If not, then they do it for money and end up being miserable the rest of their lives (serves them right 😛 )•
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by AllAboutTheGame:
•At the same time teachers don't have to get a professional degree, they don't have four years of med school, or residency. They work 8-3, they have summers off, they get a pension after they retire when they're in their mid-50's. Doctors work harder in college, kill themselves in med school, and then work like slaves as interns and residents. They also work all hours of the day and they work all year round and get no pension. Everyone couldn't be a doctor, but most anyone could be a teacher (not necessarily a good one though). That's my take on it.•
Click to expand...
 
Mental note... SirJosh is not to be trusted to be my grandmother's doctor..

If you are really curious as to some reasons why it may be that professionals are not respected the same way here as in Europe, et c...I might suggest looking at some of the work of Allen Bloom...

Best Wishes to All, JA
 
to the person who commented about the family prac doc with a mathemtics issue.....my question to him is how he passed physio/patho phys and made it through 3rd year if he cant do enough math to become a math teacher.....after 4 years of college during which i dated many women who intended on becoming teachers and i must say that it really takes alot less math to become a teacher than it does to cut it on the mcat and make it through med school
 
Maybe everyone can become a teacher. But, not everyone can teach every subject and at every level. For instance, not everyone can be a calculus or physics instructor at a high school, university or community college. One has to be very good with high end math. Not all people capapble of being doctors are capable of teaching this stuff.


As far as medicine goes, the math in medicine is in no way difficult or challenging. In fact, I miss all that abstract math.
 
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