Doing PhD after MS2 or MS3

[malin]

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I'm a current MS1 interested in applying for PhD programs (at a different institution than my med school). What are the pros and cons doing it after MS2 versus after MS3? I've heard doing it after MS3 lets you get more out of a PhD since you have more clinical experience, and doing your PhD before MS3 can help you get more out of your 3rd year. Even if I get more out of a PhD doing it after MS3, I honestly don't know if I'll have the time to apply for these programs during MS3 having just finished Step 1, given how busy you can get during your rotations. I have this whole summer free to start applying for programs (which I won't have after I take Step 1), which is why I wanted to apply for them now and do it after MS2. Does anyone have any input or advice on what would be an ideal time to do a PhD?

 

[radiology2014]

After MS3 is not an optimall time to fit in a PhD (big time gap between core rotations and applying/transitioning to residency). Either do it after MS2 (a natural break between preclinical and clinical) like the MSTPs, or wait and roll it into residency. For example:
http://med.stanford.edu/arts/overview.html
http://star.med.ucla.edu/
etc.

 

[sakata8242]

Don't do it after your M3 year. That's way more of a disruption than taking a LoA after M2 year and doing 4-5 years for a PhD.

Having been through an MD/PhD, I can tell you you're not really going to get more out of your PhD by having done a year of clerkships or vice versa. The two are completely different experiences with totally different expectations. Nobody in your lab is going to care that you did a bunch of third year clerkships when your PI wants to know why you can't get that damn antibody to work or why you're having so much trouble making that stupid transgenic mouse. Nobody during third year is going to care that you did a PhD when you're being scutted out and pimped over Salter-Harris fractures or the symptoms and management of DKA.

That being said, if you're not in a dual degree track or have the option of getting into one after your M2 year, I wouldn't bother with the PhD. You'll be in the unenviable position of being saddled with med school debt while making almost no money as a graduate student for 4-5 years. Just get through med school, find a research heavy residency program that fits your interests, and start paying back your student loans.

 

[malin]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and input. I was leaning towards applying this summer (to do a PhD after MS2). I need to make a strong case why doing it now (rather than after MS3) is the best option, so your input definitely helps. I'm getting some really good money from my school, and likely won't end up with loans. 10 years is a long time down the road, and I know interests can change, but I definitely want to do non-clinical things in my career like research, so that's why I see the PhD as important in that regard.

 

[Neuronix]

I agree with sakata and also would strongly discourage this pathway. A separate PhD program is in no position to move you through with any speed. The average time to PhD out there is upwards of 5 years. You're going to be looking at a clinical residency no matter what you do. The research opportunities in residency/fellowship are more properly designed to give you targeted research experience as a resident or fellow to launch a physician-scientist career. My advice is to take a year or two out for research at most, come back to medical school, do very well in third year (don't forget to crush step 1!), and position yourself for a top residency, hopefully a research residency, in a research friendly field. The PhD is not necessary to do research later in life, and doing an MD/PhD program in such a disjointed fashion could seriously impair your clinical career with such an extended period outside of medical school.

 

[OddNath]

Lots of valid points here regarding the OP's situation.

One dissenting opinion to add- my program has us do the PhD after MS3, and I've seen it work well (for myself included). You get to do MS3 fresh off of Step 1 and with your class, get Step 2 over with, and can continue to shadow here and there during the research years (and even get clinical letters). Then, after a warm-up rotation at the beginning of MS4, it's not that bad of a shock.

Not saying this would be the best for the OP's situation, but it can work in general.