Doing Research for Novel

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djcooper

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My name is Donna June Cooper. I am writing a novel with character who has just left the MD/PhD (physician scientist) program at UNC and I need just a bit of information from an inside source.

I will provide a substantial amount of background information about the situation to clarify and then ask two basic questions. They are not personal questions at all, just minimal information about what it is like to be in the program day-to-day.

Is this an appropriate place for this? If not, someone just tell me to skedaddle and I shall. Or, if someone wants to point me to a more appropriate place where I can ask these types of questions, that would be great too.

Thanks!
 
My character is an individual who is working on an MD/PhD at UNC Chapel Hill. She has completed the PhD, Year 5 of her program, in Pharmaceutical Sciences - Medicinal Chemistry and Natural Products. She is heading into MS 4, having completed her clinical clerkships. Now, according to UNCs website, in MS 4, students serve as acting interns and finish other elective courses. In addition, according to UNC's website, during MS4, all MD-PhD students complete a clinical research rotation. This consists of some didactic training with remaining time spent conducting the actual project under the supervision of the clinician scientist (or “clinical”) mentor. When possible, students join an existing project to gain exposure to the practical aspects of performing clinical research and interacting with human subjects.

Since this individual actually wants to focus on Natural Product-Derived Chemotherapeutic Agents, I am assuming, for the sake of my story, that she can choose to join an ongoing project of her PhD adviser, in some Phase III clinical trials of a modified natural product on cancer tumors.

My questions:

(1) I am assuming once an individual has successfully completed their research dissertation they are a "Dr.", however, in a clinical setting are they really addressed as such by medical/clinical staff if they are in MS 3?

(2) If this type of individual is working on such clinical trials, I am assuming that she would be actively involved in actually administering the treatments or collecting data from the patients, however, does that mean that she would have direct contact with the patients? For example, assuming a child was involved in the trials, would this individual have direct contact with the child patient and the parents? Would the individual, in administering the treatments or gathering this data, be allowed to have contact with the patient with or without supervision by her clinical mentor or other individual?
 
Many trials are double blind or at least blind in one direction. Secondly, I am a natural product based medicinal chemist but I am getting my PhD before my MD/DO. There is another medicinal chemist who has already completed her MD on this forum but other than this there are very few physician scientists who have that type of degree and I would be the first pharmacognosy based PhD even thinking about it, that I know of. Your character would be walking into uncharted territory professionally with that combination. I don't know if that helps at all. Good luck on your book.
 
(1) I am assuming once an individual has successfully completed their research dissertation they are a "Dr.", however, in a clinical setting are they really addressed as such by medical/clinical staff if they are in MS 3?

Usually not - most programs I know of actually hold off conferring the PhD until the student completes their medical training as well (I'm not sure if this is the case at UNC). And even if they didn't, I think it would be rare for their colleagues to call them "Dr." - but to patients, medical students are usually introduced as either a "student doctor" or just "doctor". From the patients' point of view, its just a bunch of people in white coats - but medical students' coats are shorter (~hip length) than residents' (mid-thigh, with plain plastic buttons) or attendings' (mid-thigh to knee length, with fancier buttons than the residents'). The coat thing varies between schools/hospitals, so I'm not sure if this is all true for UNC.

(2) If this type of individual is working on such clinical trials, I am assuming that she would be actively involved in actually administering the treatments or collecting data from the patients, however, does that mean that she would have direct contact with the patients? For example, assuming a child was involved in the trials, would this individual have direct contact with the child patient and the parents? Would the individual, in administering the treatments or gathering this data, be allowed to have contact with the patient with or without supervision by her clinical mentor or other individual?

I'm a little confused - is your character working on a clinical trail for their PhD, or during their M3 year? The 3rd year of medical school is highly structured, students must complete a certain number of rotations (generally, ~8 weeks on Internal Medicine, ~8 weeks of Surgery, ~8 weeks of OBGyn, Family Medicine, and some electives) - it would be difficult to fit in any additional research during this time, as the students' hours are that of the interns/residents (ie, at my program on OBGyn, students are at the hospital from ~3:30am - 6pm, plus the occasional call, where they would stay from 3:30am until ~9am the next day). 4th year is generally more flexible, and in theory, your character could continue working with her mentor during that time.

To answer your questions, as an M3, your character would be able to have direct patient contact (though in my experience, the medical portions of clinical trails - as in, the day to day talk with patients and take BP, etc - are usually done by study nurses) - as a student, anything that requires clinical judgment would probably have to be looked over by either an MD or a NP, so have the student collect that info first may not be that efficient. Either way, whoever was treating the patients in your study would most likely not know if they were being given the study drug or an equivalent treatment (and neither would the patient).

Good luck!
 
My character is an individual who is working on an MD/PhD at UNC Chapel Hill. She has completed the PhD, Year 5 of her program, in Pharmaceutical Sciences - Medicinal Chemistry and Natural Products. She is heading into MS 4, having completed her clinical clerkships. Now, according to UNCs website, in MS 4, students serve as acting interns and finish other elective courses. In addition, according to UNC's website, during MS4, all MD-PhD students complete a clinical research rotation. This consists of some didactic training with remaining time spent conducting the actual project under the supervision of the clinician scientist (or “clinical”) mentor. When possible, students join an existing project to gain exposure to the practical aspects of performing clinical research and interacting with human subjects.

The structure of an MD/PhD program is usually 2+4+2, i.e. 2 years of med school, 4 years of grad school (+/- 1 year), then 2 years of med school. When you say year 4 of med school (abbreviated MS4), we would think she is in year 8 of her program overall (abbreviated CD8).

Since this individual actually wants to focus on Natural Product-Derived Chemotherapeutic Agents, I am assuming, for the sake of my story, that she can choose to join an ongoing project of her PhD adviser, in some Phase III clinical trials of a modified natural product on cancer tumors.

That's reasonable. You have to realize that many pharmaceuticals in medicine are derived from natural chemicals, so we usually don't bother to say things like "natural product-derived". Plants have come up with some of the world's best drugs and some of the world's deadliest poisons. At times we modify them, and at times we go completely synthetic, but there's a whole range of drugs out there from a whole range of sources and we study whatever seems to work. Generally in trials like phase 3 trials, the drug is being made by a commercial manufacturer, and if it is in a trial at a medical center like UNC, the physician-investigators doing the clinical trial have nothing to do with the drug's manufacturing.

My questions:

(1) I am assuming once an individual has successfully completed their research dissertation they are a "Dr.", however, in a clinical setting are they really addressed as such by medical/clinical staff if they are in MS 3?

I actually did officially receive a PhD from my MD/PhD program on completion of the PhD portion. However, nobody calls you doctor as a medical student. This is for two reasons,

1) You don't feel like you know much in the hospital (and you don't), and so you're scared someone might actually think you know something.

2) You don't want to confuse patients. Yes, you may technically be a doctor, but in a clinical setting it's not the type of doctor patients are thinking of.

Now to patients sometimes I will introduce myself as Student Doctor and some of the residents/attendings will do that. The term medical student gets me refused by some patients, but student doctor is almost always ok (?). How I'm introduced is team dependent. Since I'm almost 30 I do play a nice doctor impression.I like to just go by my first name and I introduce myself as such.

(2) If this type of individual is working on such clinical trials, I am assuming that she would be actively involved in actually administering the treatments or collecting data from the patients, however, does that mean that she would have direct contact with the patients? For example, assuming a child was involved in the trials, would this individual have direct contact with the child patient and the parents? Would the individual, in administering the treatments or gathering this data, be allowed to have contact with the patient with or without supervision by her clinical mentor or other individual?

Typically a MS4 in a clinical research trial is going to be doing more behind the scenes work analyzing data. The treatments are usually administered by nurses. An MS4 could in theory be seeing the patients in a history and physical exam capacity on the trial to evaluate how patients are doing and look for side effects/disease progression/etc... Their findings would then be backed up by a physician/PA/NP. But, that's not what an MS4 on a clinical trial should be doing in a sense. They should be involved in the planning of research and the analysis and presentation of data, in preparation for a possible career in later clinical research.
 
@ ChemMed - Thanks for the info. I figured that Pharmacognsy was likely a pretty slender field at the moment, but it is good to know.

@StereoSanctity - My mistake. A typo on question 2. She is in MS 4 or as Neuronix points out year 8 of the whole program. She would be at UNC in research but on the MS side of things - kind of striding the line. I appreciate your information! Thanks.

@Neuronix - That is exactly what I needed. It verifies what I thought. It is not a HUGE part of the book, but I don't want you guys coming out of the woodwork at me and telling me how wrong I got it if I have a staff member call her "Dr. x" instead of just "Ms. x" or by her first name. It is good to know that a student doctor in the research phase might be involved in seeing patients for side effects/history etc., even though it would be unusual. I am figuring she might have a history with this patient from her rotation in the clinical clerkship portion, so she has a connection and might even just "visit" when she realizes the patient is now involved in the trial too. She is also nearly 30, like you.

I probably shouldn't worry about any student doctors reading my book since you guys likely don't have time for that sort of thing at all, but I want to get it right.

Thank you SO MUCH for your help. I wish all of you the very best of luck in your programs. I have much admiration for all of you in your pursuits and much envy for the future you all have ahead of you in life.

If I have any further questions, I hope I can just pop in here and post them.

Thank you again.
 
@Neuronix - That is exactly what I needed. It verifies what I thought. It is not a HUGE part of the book, but I don't want you guys coming out of the woodwork at me and telling me how wrong I got it if I have a staff member call her "Dr. x" instead of just "Ms. x" or by her first name. It is good to know that a student doctor in the research phase might be involved in seeing patients for side effects/history etc., even though it would be unusual. I am figuring she might have a history with this patient from her rotation in the clinical clerkship portion, so she has a connection and might even just "visit" when she realizes the patient is now involved in the trial too. She is also nearly 30, like you.

This all sounds plausible to me. Usually we're just on a first name basis with staff. It's even very common for nurses and other staff to call residents by their first names as well if they've worked together at all.

Good luck with your book!
 
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