DO's and US FMG's shouldn't be allowed to practice US medicine

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At any rate, I have re-though my original argument and have decided that DO's may indeed have a function that is to serve as primary care physicians in rural and inner-city communities. I am afraid that from what I have seen all else is above them.

As for myself, and just about everyone I have met thus far, there is NOTHING that will be above us. I can and WILL go any route that I feel suits me the best. It could be primary care, or it could be a competitive surgical specialty...I don't know at this point. The fact is, John Q MD student doesn't have a free ticket into any specialty either. True, there may be initial skepticism on PDs parts toward a DO (although this IS becoming less of a factor), but I am going let my application D.O. my talking.

As for getting hands on clinical skills, my friends at my former state's med school (allo) are no where near where we are in just the first quarter. It's funny, I actually tutor them via email regarding a lot of subjects already.Oh, but I forgot?.I am not at there level:laugh: :laugh:
 
i can't believe i'm replying because it just furthers this thread to the top.

i graduated from an MD program in philadelphia. there are many medical schools in philadelphia -- Temple, Jefferson, MCP/Hahenmann (now Drexel), UPenn, and PCOM. I know for a fact that Jefferson and Drexel are large with over 200 students per class. It just means they have more clinical sites for students to rotate through.

I have rotated with students and worked with residents from PCOM. There is no difference between them and MD trained residents. As with every program, there are good and bad students/residents.

Finally many FMG's have already practiced for many years in their own countries. To say that they are subpar is ignorant. I'm sure when an FMG meets someone like you, it takes all their energy to restrain from strangling you.

I do wonder why you started the thread. The real people who should not be allowed to practice US medicine are the ones who go around bashing other specialities, hating everyone, yelling at everything and making everyone around them miserable.

At any rate, I have re-though my original argument and have decided that DO's may indeed have a funciton, that is to serve as primary care physicians in rural and inner-city communities. I am afraid that from what I have seen all else is above them. And to answer the PHD who works in the ER (what a unique career route) when I was a medical student I rotated at some of my school's "inner-city" hospitals where DO's from a school would rotate through. So I have seen them in action and I have seen how their training is miserable.

that too is ridiculous. DO;s enter all fields -- cardiology, nephrology, urology, surgery, em. not all DO's train to function as primary care physicians. you have obviously not seen enough.

before making a blanket ignorant statement, at least get your facts straight.
 
For orthoguy to be such a brilliantly intelligent individual, his english sure does suck.

The underlying problem with medical education and the medical system in general is arrogance. Thanks for contributing more arrogance, bad judgement, and poor critical thinking skills into medicine, orthoguy.

By the way, your pretending to be an "attending physician friend" of orthoguy is juvenile, and quite sad honestly. If you are an attending physician, then it's even more sad.

Knowing that people like you exist in medicine, while some of my friends who had great grades and a much kinder personality than you but couldn't gain acceptance to med school really makes me wonder what admissions committees are thinking. I'd bet you only got accepted because one of your parents was a doctor and an alumni of the school that you attend. Or maybe you're just fake, and was able to conceal the malignancy of your personality which makes you a despicable individual.

If DO's and FMG's were forced out of US medicine today, the entire system would crumble. There wouldn't be enough docs to meet the demand. Would you really rather see people die due to inaccessible care, rather than have some FMG running around?

Orthoguy, pure and simple, you are a bigot. And bigots are not welcome in medicine. Go chase after your ER residency some more. At least then I'll never have to meet you, or worry that you are someone's primary doctor or surgeon.
 
Ah the ignorance of the above posts is amazing. First to address the individual who said I am arguing that input determines output is correct, if I were solely arguing that case it would be a flawed argument. However I am stating that the students are poor to begin with and are provided with poor pre-clinical and abysmal clinical training. I have seen the aforementioned NYCOM students in action when I was a 4th year medical student doing an outside rotation at a NYC hospital, and not only did they perform poorly but they were held to a different lower standard than the allopathic students. It?s as if they were already expected to be poorer clinicians and with the rare exception, they are.

I admit I have met some wonderful DO's but they are few and far between. The unfortunate truth is that you have school like NYCOM who take a 1st year class of up to 250 people and churns out a lot more crap into the environment than good. If there were a reduction in the number of DO spots and maybe a slashing of DO schools than I would be more respectful of the profession. Until then it is obvious that the sole reason these schools exist are to admit as many students as possible (since the majority of a DO schools funding comes from tuition and not from government research money) and turn them over in 4 years to residencies, where, god be willing, they will be turned into adequate clinicians. Unfortunately this is the truth and though there are some wonderful DO's in the world the way the system is established is simply not conducive to that being a majority.


And to the above poster I have a lot of respect for FMG's, what the post addresses is US born individuals who flock to foreign schools such as Ross and I never claimed to be an attending, I am merely a resident.
 
Originally posted by GeddyLee


Orthoguy, pure and simple, you are a bigot. And bigots are not welcome in medicine. Go chase after your ER residency some more. At least then I'll never have to meet you, or worry that you are someone's primary doctor or surgeon.


LOL to the bigot comment, by stating that I feel a group of physicians are more poorly trained than another makes me a bigot? I truly think you need to look the word up before you wantonly throw the word around.
 
orthoguy....
bigot...
Main Entry: big?ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1661
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

taken from websters....sounds like you fit the bill
 
Originally posted by orthoguy
Everyone seems to be avoiding discussing the elephant in the room that DO's go to DO school simply b/c they cannot get into allopathic school not b/c they disagree with the allopathic philosophy.

I think the real elephant in the room is the question of exactly what the DO's did to piss you off. Did they take your residency slot or your girlfriend.

What you've shown us so far is an unsubstantiated claim that DO's have inferior clinical training. If you check medline you will find a total of three studies comparing MDs and DOs. The first looked at disciplinary actions by the Ohio state medical board and found no difference. The second looked at performance on a joint MD/DO third year psych clerkship which included a written and practical evaluation and found no difference. The third looked at lab utillization between DO and MD hospitals and found increased lab usage by the DO's but acknowledge that geographic differences had an equal or even greater impact on lab usage. Not exactly rousing support for your thesis.

You've then added a further unsubstantiated concern that DO schools are flooding the US with excessive numbers ">250" of graduates. The underlying subtext here is that they took a residency spot, practice location, or something you wanted. The number of residency slots is tightly controlled and there are more slots than there are MD graduates so every DESERVING graduate ought to be able to land one. If they lost out to a DO or FMG well then somebody thought the DO or FMG was better-after all we don't have DO affirmative action. By the way, do you know what percentage of total medical school grads and first year allopathic residents are represented by DO's. Its easy to look up and not that big of a number.

Finally, an unsubstantiated claim that all DO's were rejected from allopathic schools. I don't doubt that many were but ALL? Several have posted right here that they got in to allopathic schools. Granted they didn't post JPEG's of their acceptance letters but given your anonymous unsupported rantings I don't see why they can't be as anonymous and unsupported.

Since you've made everyone elses career and qualifications an issue while keeping yours hidden I will answer you're one snide comment about my career choices. I currently am a board certified emergency physician and ex chief resident. I am also currently a grant funded researcher in immunology and biochemistry(multiple grants). So, overall I'm quite happy and comfortable with my careers (note plural)

P.S. When you do come up with a new screen name you might try "Son-of-Macgyver" although macgyver used to at least sometimes try to find data supporting his views on FMG's,DO's, and PA's
 
I like you ER Mud-Fud, you have not attacked me and tried to de-bunk my argument, though I think you have read too much into my statements about your career choice. I was not making a snide remark rather I was genuinely surprised as I have never worked with an MD/PHD who chose a career in the ER.

That being said, the issue here is not the 3 very limited studies that you cited, you and I would both agree that no true conclusions can be drawn from such a limited literature database. What is at issue are the institutions where DO's spend their clinical years and the best defense that I have seen is that they are sometimes allowed to rotate at other institutions such as "NYU and Downstate", both very allopathic schools.

The DO philosophy is a dead philosophy. Virtually no one practices osteopathic medicine, and I dare say (though I will give you that this is anecdotal evidence) is spite of what you hear on this board, very osteopathic student would much rather have trained at an allopathic residency and not sound the rest of their careers explaining to their patient population that a DO is indeed a real doctor.

This bias is not simply my bias, I am just simply stating here on an open forum what is often talked about in the medical community (and I know some medical student will take offense to that last statement and say "well I've never heard that, you must be just a mean-spirited individuals working with people I would never want to work with" Yet I work at a very prominent institution.

DO's will always be second class citizens to MD's that?s the way the system is set-up. Its like having an annoying younger kid brother.

Again, this has nothing to do with me or my career. I have done exceedingly well in medical school and have landed a top-notch residency, so trying to make this about my failed aspirations simply will not work. What this is about is a group of people who couldn't hack the grades for medical school, who 30 years ago would be glorified chiropractors, giving the profession of medicine a worse name than it has already established by practicing second rate medicine.
 
While I don't agree with Orthoguy's theory on FMGs (I have worked with many good FMGs from Britain, Australia, and former British colonies plus a few from Europe, Asia, and Africa), I do wonder about the philosophy of DO schools/education. I have heard that most DO schools nowadays teach pretty much the same material as MD schools, which would suggest that they are like the Cal State schools to the UC schools (or the USBA to the NBA). I don't know how many residency spots DOs are taking away from MDs. However, if the sheer number of DO applicants overwhelms most residency programs beyond the large number of MD applicants, residency programs would be less likely to improve the working conditions of residents as there will always be someone willing to work for less pay or more pain. I think this is definitely an area perhaps AMA should take up instead of only advancing the political agenda of officers like they do most of the time.
 
Orthoguy and michimo,

Don't be mad because you are going to lose your desired spots to DO's there will still be a job for you guys in Family Practice!!!!


By the way good luck you both will need it!!
 
I would like to see data showing the relative performance of allopathic MDs, DOs and FMGs in clinical performance -- where it counts.

I hate to bump this useless thread to the top, but I wanted to address the comment above comparing MD's and FMG's in a clinical setting. The Journal of the American Medical Association published a study that compared clinical skills between the God-like US MD's and the inferior FMG's. Guess what. The US MD's got trounced in pretty much every category by the FMG's.

The result of that study? Now American medical students need to take a clinical skills exam to try and get them up to par with FMG's.
 
First, orthoguy is not the registered user for that log-in as admitted by his/herself.

Second, orthoguy completes 1 medical student rotation with DO students from 1 osteopathic medical school and now he/she is an expert on osteopathic medical education.

I have had the opportunity to have MD students who aren't very bright working on my service, so I guess now I can go ahead and make general statements as to the quality of allopathic medical education...

Often times the DO students are smarter and more capable than the MD students. I had an MD student talk to me about this because she felt bad that the DO was showing her up. Apparently the DO had done rotations at a smaller hospital where she was able to do everything. The MD student said she was always standing behind the fellow, the senior resident, the junior resident, and 2 interns. She never got to do anything so she was clinically weaker. There are pros and cons to both ways of education, but to generalize and say that community hospitals offer poor education opportunities is a slap in the face to many MD/DO medical schools and residency programs.

Also, many MD students rotate through small community hospitals just like some DO programs. And some DO programs have students who rotate through large academic hospitals (PCOM, NYCOM, UMDJ-SOM, MSU-COM etc.).

So orthoguy, or whomever you really are, the statements you make are largely unfounded. You have yet to show any of us that DOs are weaker physicians, or that the US healthcare system is detiorating like in your original post.
 
Son-of-Orthoguy's contentions so far,

1. Osteopathic schools are flooding the market with substandard grads.

Fact: JAMA Sep,2003. Of the about 4000-5000 DO grads per year 1300 went into allopathic internships in 2002 representing a whopping 6% of all allopathic interns that year.

2. DO's are clinically inferior secondary to poor training or something

Fact: No evidence for this other than his personal experience with a few students

3. DO's went to DO school because their MCAT's and grades were too poor for MD schools.

Fact: probably true for many but dangerous to assume this applies to all DO students and even more dangerous to assume that these markers imply anything about future clinical abilities

4. The MD establishment looks down on DO's

Fact: Definately true but more so in certain geographic areas like OG's northeast. That is however a pretty poor reason for saying all DO's are clinically inferior and should be banned from US practice. After all, we don't ban certain ethnicities from specific jobs or geographic locations just because they might meet some racists
 
Originally posted by orthoguy
Yes I do agree, but I am simply arguing that the opportunity is not there for the DO to excell clinically because of the lack of opportunity. I have stated my case about the poor clinical years that DO schools provide, how schools often take LARGE classes that would be unheard of at an Allopathic school and simply cannot be trained adequately (ie NYCOM's 250).

Orthoguy, I do not agree with you on this point. I think pretty much all allopathic schools have on campus hospitals.... as opposed to a very few osteopathic schools who do. However, this is just a question of geographics. Most Osteopathic students do their rotations in a wide variety of hospitals all over the country. The experiences they get there are the same as the ones allopaths get in their hospitals on campus. I dont know how you can say that they are short changed on their clinical education. They just have to go to a bunch of different hospitals as opposed to doing all their rotations under one roof.
 
I am going to stop debating this point momentarily, mostly b/c I am much more enamored with the ignorance in the savethematch thread.

Parting thought--though I have worked with wonderful DO's the majority have been poor clinicians and this is the unfortunate byproduct of all of the aforementioned reasons (i.e. geography/no home hospital sites) and this is not going to change in the near future.

No one has addressed the fact that DO Schools no longer are turning out osteopaths, they in essence turn out your poor man's allopath.

If their training changes and they start turning out better physicians I will embrace them. however until that happens I will be quite content to have 97% of them go into rural and inner-city primary care.
 
Originally posted by orthoguy

Everyone seems to be avoiding discussing the elephant in the room that DO's go to DO school simply b/c they cannot get into allopathic school not b/c they disagree with the allopathic philosophy.

Somebody may have already said this and, if so, forgive the repetition, but the "big elephant" is a weak argument.
Let's say you are right and that all DO's went DO because they could not get into an allopathic school, how does that relate to their competence as physicians?
You could use the exact same argument about me: that I only went to UofA because I couldn't get into Harvard, Hopkins, or whatever school you or USnews deamed superior. Does that make me inferior to everyone at these other schools?
Obviously not. Once accepted to medical school, your superiority/inferiority is based on what you do IN MEDICAL SCHOOL! Show me statistics where DO's have much lower board scores, residency performance, and career experience. Oh...and in order for your logic to work, EVERY DO would have had to have done worse in these areas than EVERY MD.
Obviously such statistics don't exist or DO's would not be accepted into allopathic residencies or given licences to practice medicine in the US. Once again...I return to my argument...they have to meet the same requirements as MD students to be licenced.

Also, you say that you rotated in the same hospitals as DO students....doesn't that make your clinical experience equivalent (at least for those rotations?) I know the DO school in Phoenix rotates through the same hospitals of UofA....how are they getting inferior clinical training in the exact same hospitals?

I also brought up some stuff in previous posts that you have not addressed.
 
if 1300 out of 4000-5000 DO graduates go into allopathic internships,

1) what do the rest of DOs do?
2) how many MD graduates didn't match?

I think with those numbers we can figure something out about the job market...
 
Originally posted by MichiMO
Somebody may have already said this and, if so, forgive the repetition, but the "big elephant" is a weak argument.
Let's say you are right and that all DO's went DO because they could not get into an allopathic school, how does that relate to their competence as physicians?
You could use the exact same argument about me: that I only went to UofA because I couldn't get into Harvard, Hopkins, or whatever school you or USnews deamed superior. Does that make me inferior to everyone at these other schools?
Obviously not. Once accepted to medical school, your superiority/inferiority is based on what you do IN MEDICAL SCHOOL! Show me statistics where DO's have much lower board scores, residency performance, and career experience. Oh...and in order for your logic to work, EVERY DO would have had to have done worse in these areas than EVERY MD.
Obviously such statistics don't exist or DO's would not be accepted into allopathic residencies or given licences to practice medicine in the US. Once again...I return to my argument...they have to meet the same requirements as MD students to be licenced.

Also, you say that you rotated in the same hospitals as DO students....doesn't that make your clinical experience equivalent (at least for those rotations?) I know the DO school in Phoenix rotates through the same hospitals of UofA....how are they getting inferior clinical training in the exact same hospitals?

I also brought up some stuff in previous posts that you have not addressed.

I think your example of choosing an undergrad school is a good way to look at the whole MD vs DO thing.

I just don't understand why some people get off on starting "DO's and IMG's suck" threads. Maybe orthoguy and all the other posters who start those type of threads need to find some other hobbies.
 
Originally posted by tjmDO
Orthoguy and michimo,

Don't be mad because you are going to lose your desired spots to DO's there will still be a job for you guys in Family Practice!!!!


By the way good luck you both will need it!!

Did you even read my posts? I disagreed with just about everything orthoguy said.
 
Originally posted by DOtobe
I think your example of choosing an undergrad school is a good way to look at the whole MD vs DO thing.

I just don't understand why some people get off on starting "DO's and IMG's suck" threads. Maybe orthoguy and all the other posters who start those type of threads need to find some other hobbies.

Actually, I was comparing it to choosing medical schools (I am at UofA College of Medicine), but I guess it could also be compared to choosing an undergrad (though I am not sure the OP would think so).
 
Originally posted by orthoguy


The DO philosophy is a dead philosophy. Virtually no one practices osteopathic medicine, and I dare say (though I will give you that this is anecdotal evidence) is spite of what you hear on this board, very osteopathic student would much rather have trained at an allopathic residency and not sound the rest of their careers explaining to their patient population that a DO is indeed a real doctor.

Actually, DO hospitals and doctors are much valued in Michigan (amongst other midwest states).
 
Originally posted by MichiMO
Actually, I was comparing it to choosing medical schools (I am at UofA College of Medicine), but I guess it could also be compared to choosing an undergrad (though I am not sure the OP would think so).


is UofA cool? i have an interview there for general surgery. im looking forward to it, since it seems like an awesome place.
 
Orthoguy:

Assuming that what you are saying about Do's and US-IMG's is true .

I ask you one question.

What are you gonna do about it?

It sounds to me that maybe you are just jealous because you thought that you were someone special because you got into a US medical school but have finally realized that you are not any better than any USIMG or DO, thus the hostility towards us.

It bothers you a great deal that DO's and USIMG's are at par with any US graduate. What you really need to do is relax and be happy.

No one here has volunteered to be your punching bag. I personally would hate to have you as my colleague in the future.

You are nothing but a bully.
 
Originally posted by woundvac
is UofA cool? i have an interview there for general surgery. im looking forward to it, since it seems like an awesome place.

I don't know what it is like for residency, but the medical school is nice and laidback. People are very nice and the school is really supportive of its students. I am confident that you would find the same thing in its residency programs.

Also AZ is a good place to live (if you can bear a few months of heat) and Tucson is a nice little city.

Good luck on your interview.
 
ORTHOGUY. YOU ARE OUR BITCH.
 
Originally posted by orthoguy
Parting thought--though I have worked with wonderful DO's the majority have been poor clinicians and this is the unfortunate byproduct of all of the aforementioned reasons (i.e. geography/no home hospital sites) and this is not going to change in the near future.
No one has addressed the fact that DO Schools no longer are turning out osteopaths, they in essence turn out your poor man's allopath.

Do you feel that I am unprepared to take care of your mother/father/significant other if they came into my ER in the middle of the night, and I was the only physician there? Am I competent enough to do my job? I have had the Program Director for IM here try to recruit me to switch to IM, as well as the Chief Resident of Surgery here ask me to consider a career in surgery. This after only doing one month of each rotation. Oh, they both said that I was one of the best interns they have ever had.

And I am at a 900+ bed hospital with almost every specialty represented here.

But I suppose I am still subpar and a "poor man's" physician because I am a DO.

Q, DO
 
Can a Do get a medical lisence in the US? Yes, so who cares. But at risk of starting a pissing match let me tell you why I went DO. AS you know when you apply for med school, you send your infor into the AOA application service, and the AMA appilcation service.

My AMA application got all messed up! I don't want to go into detail but it was a mess! By the time it all got straightened out, I had been accepted to a DO school.

Now, you konw how acceptance letters are, "COngrats, you are accepted, oh by the way, give us $1500 by next week or we give you seat to somebody else"

Since this was the ONLY DO school that accepted me, and the allopathic schools were just starting to get my primary application at that time. I took the acceptance.

Now you may ask, if the alloptahic schools invited my for interview after this, why didn't I go alloptahic? Well unlike most of you people, I was working full time and trying to finish up my second bachelors degree in chemical engineering. My Mommy and Daddy didn't even support my decision to go to med school and wouldn't give me a f**c'n dime. So on top of paying my rent, paying my tuition, paying my car loan, paying back other undergrad laons, I was out $1500 smacks. Looks liek I was going DO.

But I didn't care, becasue I just want to be a doc!! I won't lie I didn't know who A.T. STill was or have some desire to be some OMM gurue, I just wanted to be a doc and was too damn broke to try to get into allopathic school and didn't feel like waiting another year to raise the money.

So, while you were in undergrad padding your bio major with all blow off elective classes so you could get a 3.8 so you could get into med school. I was taking quantum mechanics, nuclear physics, Advanced physical chemistry, Mathematics much beyond calculus 2, thermodynamimcs, etc.

In fact, when I went to my first med school interview, they actually asked me "you aren't going to med school because its easier to get and MD or DO than it si to get a PhD in chemical engineering? Are You?"

So to answer your question, No I didn't go DO because I had poor grades or couldn't hack a hard curriculum. I did it because that was just the way fate worked for me. Oh well! What can I do?

In fact, I know all of the drills people have. They major in english and take the minimal science requirements tha med schools require and get 4.0's and go to MD school.

There are bio majors that have separate physics and calculus courses just for them, then they get the word on all easy profs for their core courses and get 3.8's and get into MD school.

Hey good for them! I wasn't one of these. But oh well, I don't care, I just want a lisence to practice in the US. DO school can do that, so I didn't cry or whine about it!
 
Originally posted by orthoguy
I am going to stop debating this point momentarily, mostly b/c I am much more enamored with the ignorance in the savethematch thread.

Parting thought--though I have worked with wonderful DO's the majority have been poor clinicians and this is the unfortunate byproduct of all of the aforementioned reasons (i.e. geography/no home hospital sites) and this is not going to change in the near future.

No one has addressed the fact that DO Schools no longer are turning out osteopaths, they in essence turn out your poor man's allopath.

If their training changes and they start turning out better physicians I will embrace them. however until that happens I will be quite content to have 97% of them go into rural and inner-city primary care.

orthoguy, if you had any noteworthy clinical judgement, you would know the answer to the question of your problem...

IF SOMEONE HAS DIARRHEA OF THE MOUTH, WHERE DO YOU POUR THE PEPTO BISMOL?





😕 😕 😕 😕 😕 😕
 
I do find it interesting that in the last US News and World Report for Graduate Schools 3 DO schools (out of 20) ranked in the top 50 for top primary care schools. In fact, Michigan State University School of Osteopathic Medicine was ranked #4 in the Nation. The Osteopathic Schools in Texas and Oklahoma also ranked in the top 50. That means of the 125 allopathic schools at least 78 of them were ranked below these osteopathic schools for primary care. Go figure.
 
i don't agree with Orthoguy, but all this whining and dying about a statement is equally getting on my nerves.

all the D.O.'s need to chill out with their grandiose defenses about their career choices....anyone with half a brain can realise that Orthoguy is a complete troll and his opinions are about as useful as a 3 day old dead rat. I don't think you guys need to spend this much energy defending yourselves to an idiot.

People who are really involved in Medicine KNOW that without IMGs and D.O.'s, the US medical environment would suffer greatly........THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE.

I have found that ATTITUDE is one of the most important parts of the professional training that Medical Students can recieve......and knocking down his/her colleagues because their education is different is completely ignorant and essentially laughable. Orthoguy just wants some attention....and wants to feel superior...essentially because he has insecurity issues that make him feel inferior when he doesn't wanna feel that way.

CHEERS
 
Originally posted by psyguy
That means of the 125 allopathic schools at least 78 of them were ranked below these osteopathic schools for primary care. Go figure.

For those of you that arent aware, primary care does not mean family practice. It also includes IM, ER, and OB. Our school put residents @ Yale, Penn and Mayo IM departments in the last 5 years.
 
The original ranking of Primary Care included IM subspecialties, but since then IM subspecialties are no longer considered "primary care". Thus, schools that put out a lot of people who go on to fellowships drop out of the ranking because they don't produce enough NUMBER of primary care providers as the majority of the good MD schools put out a lot of specialists.

I admit that I do not know how they figured out how to exclude the subspecialties 3 years ahead of post-IM fellowship. However, I know that our school was ranked quite high (#3 or #4) when they first came out with the primary care ranking in US News because of the high number of subspecialists, but when they found out that most of the "IM" graduates are "IM-subspecialties" rather than "IM-primary care", they dropped us out of the ranking almost completely if not completely.
 
Originally posted by orthoguy
You really are going to "manipulate" people's ailments away? No, you went there not because you believed in their philosophy but b/c you got a 25 on your MCAT with a 3.1 GPA.
dude, you're a disgrace to the method. you don't walk into a special ed class and call everyone a ******, do you? well, the same applies here. this board is owned by a do and heavily moderated by do's (do/phd is now mstp? not in our lifetime).

everyone knows that getting into a do school requires no more than the simple desire to do so, and that their training is subpar (understatement of the day). but you don't just go around shouting it out. you have to sneak it in by saying stuff like, "i can appreciate how the do schools look past the numbers and have a very unique philosophy, but shouldn't the focus be on the quality of students they graduate?" or, "maybe the do schools should reconsider their affiliations with the devry's of higher education (touro and nova come to mind)."

now, try again. and this time don't screw it up.
 
Originally posted by want$it$bad
everyone knows that getting into a do school requires no more than the simple desire to do so, and that their training is subpar (understatement of the day).
🙄 Those crazy premeds who think they know everything...😉
 
Ugh, this DO vs MD thing is tired.....
 
orthoguy,

I have simple solution to prevent most of the USIMG's from going out of the country for medical school: open up more medical schools in the U.S. There are at least 20,000 residency spots in the U.S. but only about 16,000 USMG's.

As a USMG, you should know that much of your logic and reasoning is flawed (as already pointed out by others). Before you reply, please, no anecdotal evidence.

And for your reading pleasure...

From JAMA, Sept. 2001

RESEARCH LETTERS

Physical Examination Skills of US and International Medical Graduates


To the Editor: Physical diagnostic skills are considered essential for the practice of medicine,1 but several studies have noted declining clinical skills among US medical school graduates (USMGs).2-4 We conducted a study to measure recent medical school graduates' ability to perform the abdominal examination.




Methods



We defined criterion standards for 13 specific abdominal examination skills (Table 1) in accordance with a textbook that is widely used in US medical schools to teach physical diagnosis.5 These skills relate to performing a general examination of the abdomen as well as examination for suspected acute appendicitis.

We studied 148 first-year residents in internal medicine and pediatrics at our institutions, of whom 113 were USMGs and 35 were international medical graduates (IMGs). Subjects were asked to examine the abdomen of a young adult patient, and each examination was directly observed by 1 of the authors. Inter-rater reliability was established previously ( = 0.93). The performance of the USMGs was compared with the IMGs using the 2 or Fisher exact test as appropriate. International medical graduates with prior residency training were excluded.




Results



Overall, USMGs performed significantly worse than IMGs for each of the 13 skills (P = .001 for each) (Table 1). There were no significant differences between specialties or among residency training programs.




Comment



The clinical skills of USMGs in this sample appears to be suboptimal. We note that participants in this study may not be representative of either the USMG or IMG population. However, USMGs in this study collectively attended 63 different US medical schools and as a group they received a grade of honors in 542 (80%) of the 678 required clinical clerkships during medical school. Thus, their clinical grades place them in the top quartile of USMGs in that year.

As of July 1, 1998, all IMGs were required to pass a clinical skills assessment examination prior to entering US residency programs. Graduates of US medical schools currently are exempt from this national assessment examination. Previous data reveal that approximately 97% of candidates achieve a passing score on this examination and that 80% of candidates undertake special preparation for the test.6 All IMGs in this study successfully completed this examination. Increased attention to clinical skills acquisition may be necessary in medical schools, and residency program faculty may need to conduct an assessment of basic clinical skills at the start of internship and provide appropriate remediation where indicated. To the extent that testing drives learning, it may be desirable to institute a national clinical skills examination for USMGs. The National Board of Medical Examiners is currently pilot testing such an examination for possible future use.6



Philip O. Ozuah, MD, MSEd
Jane Curtis, MD
Albert Einstein College of Medicine
Children's Hospital at Montefiore
Bronx, NY

Eugene Dinkevich, MD
Department of Pediatrics
Downstate Children's Medical Center
Brooklyn, NY



1. Kern DC, Parrino TA, Korst DR. The lasting value of clinical skills. JAMA. 1985;254:70-76. MEDLINE

2. Wiener S, Nathanson M. Physical examination: frequently observed errors. JAMA. 1976;236:852-855. MEDLINE

3. Mangione S, Nieman LZ. Cardiac auscultatory skills of internal medicine and family practice trainees. JAMA. 1997;278:717-722. MEDLINE

4. Mangione S, Peitzman S. Revisiting physical diagnosis during the medical residency: it is time for a logbookand more. Acad Med. 1999;74:467-469. MEDLINE

5. Bickley L, Hoekelman R. Bates' Guide to Physical Examination and History Taking. 7th ed. Philadelphia, Pa: Lippincott-Raven; 1998.

6. Whelan G. High-stakes medical performance testing: the clinical skills assessment program. JAMA. 2000;283:1748. FULL TEXT | PDF | MEDLINE



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Letters Section Editors: Stephen J. Lurie, MD, PhD, Senior Editor; Jody W. Zylke, MD, Contributing Editor
 
dude where do you get off talking abut NOVA. NSUCOM is a kick ass school. i am a 2nd year and i would put my classmates up with anyone in the country. ALL the "big northeast academic "centers love getting residents from our school. To quote one of the CME's at MAYO Jacksonville. " We like the students from Nova, they are very will rounded and have great clinical exam skills". You really do not know what the hell your talking about.
as for orthoguy, dude empirically i dont think you are a bad person but just a product of ignorance. but i am tired of this DO MD crap. Ya know what, at the end of the day its doesnt matter. All that matters is you help your patient live a better day tommorrow than yesterday. As for me i plan to be a urologist, granted there are not many indications for OMM in that field but when they present themselves or other problems in different areas come about i will use them. Why not we can bill for it and it can augment our practices real nice.
i think that if you really sat down with a DO and let them show you the extrastuff we learn in med school you would be surprised.As for the training in the 3 and 4th years, all i know is that at NOVA we train at some of the biggest and best hospital systems in the country including Mt Sinai in Maimi and Jackson as well as Broward General in Ft. Lauderdale.Not every DO school puts out 250 like NYCOM. In Florida the number of students is mandated by the state as a measure of the need of doctors in the future.
i will admit to you orthoguy, i did not get into allopathic school in my state, but ya know i believe that the good lord had a plan for me and he wanted me to be where im at. IM PROUD THAT IM GOING TO BE A DO!!

ya know when i was little i wanted to be an astronaut but things change. Ill settle for being a physician.
 
Originally posted by want$it$bad


everyone knows that getting into a do school requires no more than the simple desire to do so, and that their training is subpar (understatement of the day). but you don't just go around shouting it out. you have to sneak it in by saying stuff like, "i can appreciate how the do schools look past the numbers and have a very unique philosophy, but shouldn't the focus be on the quality of students they graduate?" or, "maybe the do schools should reconsider their affiliations with the devry's of higher education (touro and nova come to mind)."

now, try again. and this time don't screw it up.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Don't forget the devry's of higher education like New York Instit. of Tech. they advertise on the local radio station too.
 
Okay, I'm completely ambivalent, because I'm neither a DO or MD. I'm a JD that will hopefully, someday become either a DO or a MD, if I'm remotely lucky.

Stigma aside, could someone post the relative malpractice rates for DO's versus MD's? Maybe break it down by specialty? That might be a good indicator of what we're all arguing about.

Of course, it still wouldn't be a perfect indicator--because just ASSUMING (I'm not at ALL saying this is the case.. but just assuming) that DO malpractice rates are higher, one would have to look at whether the proximate cause of the doctor-inflicted injuries were due to manipulative medicine or other DO-specific practices.

If the cause of the injuries aren't DO-specific practices, then it's likely not that a DO curriculum is inferior--rather, just that a certain few DO's are making a bad name for all.
 
There shouldnt be a degree-specific difference, but there is a specialty-specific difference. DO's probably incur a lower malpractice rate, on a whole then, as a much higher percentage of them stay in less 'high-risk' specialties.
 
did we really need to bumb an old thread like this?
 
Onescaredminnow said:
Stigma aside, could someone post the relative malpractice rates for DO's versus MD's? Maybe break it down by specialty? That might be a good indicator of what we're all arguing about.

Neurosurgeons have more malpractice lawsuits than Family Medicine doctors. Does that mean neurosurgeons are dumber/less trained than Family physicians? No. Because only those sufficiently qualified could enter the high-risk, technically challenging specialties. Malpractice "rate" is very different across specialties and not a good measure of competency.
 
orthoguy ....you do have the world's smallest penis and an inferiority complex. I guess UMD NJ, Michigan State are sub par because they turn out both DO and MD. You are afraid of the competition and just want to rest on your laurels of :MD"..MD =My Dad is a doctor and bought my way in med school or else I'd be in Ross/SGU. about doing your job well and not fearing PA and DOs. Microphallic loser!!!!!!!!!!! Thank your rich daddy for buying your degree then get laid then get a life.
 
as far as advertising on the radio, i can't turn the radio on without hearing some commercual about NYU....
l
 
I will be a FMG, so my view is obviously biased.

While this may piss alot of people off, I think DO students should be allowed to apply to DO residencies only. OR they should add DO residencies into the general match, and make it eligible for both DOs & MDs.

Do DO residencies refuse to accept MD students just because they didnt get OMM training in medical school?

I guess DO students make good use of OMM in radiology and pathology. :laugh:

I also think that FMGs should be allowed to apply for US residencies because there's a bunch of residency programs that are in undesirable locations that need residents. No US graduate would want to go these hellholes, but the FMG will fill them.
 
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