Downsides to over aggressive core measure compliance

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Birdstrike

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Someone posted in another thread an issue about aggressive enforcement of a core measures, specifically, Sepsis CMS Core Measure (SEP-1), such as firing MDs on the spot, with no medical review, appeal or due process.

I can imagine that such aggressive, boot-to-the-throat enforcement measures will spur compliance. And clearly we want to reduce morbidity and mortality from sepsis by treating it early to help patients. However, are their downsides to overly aggressively enforcing this?

To the patient?

To society?

To the MD?

To the employer?

Or is there no extreme to which enforcing a core measure, and specifically this one, can be harmful?
 
It is blatantly obvious that pushing core metrics or any of the quality metrics too far is bad for the entire list you gave-- individual patients, individual physicians, the entire ED (as everyone focuses on the code stroke and ignores the other 4 dying people), etc.

I have a real interest in quality metrics. It is so hard to measure "quality". And I have a bizarre love for all the "unintended" badness that comes from a superficially "good" metric. I find it all very interesting.

If you read the CMS conference calls on SEP-1, you see that they don't even suggest or WANT hospitals getting 100% compliance. They agree its a metric-in-progress and are frequently modifying it. Some how that frequently does NOT translate into real life on the front lines, as so many of us know.

Another one I hate is the get-with-the-guidelines stroke metric, that every stroke needs an NIHSS documented. Horse manure. NIHSS might be valid in those possible TPA cases, but if I'm admitting a 95yo with a UTI who feels "off" but has an intact neuro exam aside from minimal delirium, and on hospital day #3 an MRI finds a tiny subacute lacune... well guess who is a bad doctor who didn't document an NIHSS!

For those of you battling SEP-1, know that as of January 1st, you can use IDEAL BODY WEIGHT in your 30mL/kg bolus of crystalloid calculation, if you document your desire for doing so, in those patients with BMI >30....
 
We get audited on this stuff as I'm sure many do.

Didn't give antibiotics early enough? Ding.

Didn't give 30 cc per kg over the first three hours, but did give a very appropriate 1.5 - 2 L bolus even before admission in two hours? Ding.

Lactate? Blood cultures? So on.

Some of it is obvious. And we all know sepsis is important.

But half of my influenza patients this season were "septic". My heart failure patients are sometimes septic but are not so intravascularly depleted that they require that kind of crystalloid, not to mention the potential for harm. My teenager with strep throat? Septic. The 22 year old in the neighboring room who came to the ED with a cold? Just barely septic.

Things have gone too far. Treat the damn patient.
 
We get audited on this stuff as I'm sure many do.

Didn't give antibiotics early enough? Ding.

Didn't give 30 cc per kg over the first three hours, but did give a very appropriate 1.5 - 2 L bolus even before admission in two hours? Ding.

Lactate? Blood cultures? So on.

Some of it is obvious. And we all know sepsis is important.

But half of my influenza patients this season were "septic". My heart failure patients are sometimes septic but are not so intravascularly depleted that they require that kind of crystalloid, not to mention the potential for harm. My teenager with strep throat? Septic. The 22 year old in the neighboring room who came to the ED with a cold? Just barely septic.

Things have gone too far. Treat the damn patient.


Treat patients. Not administrators.
 
Do Studies show doing septic workups/aggressive treatment, early abx improve outcome? I think the answers is Yes

Do studies showing all patients fitting septic criteria improve outcome on these pts? I think the answer is no. You may improve a few truly septic pts but all of the needless blood cultures, Urine cultures, IV Abx, labs, has major downstream costs.

But all the gov/admin is myopic about is improving a tiny fraction of patients but harm a large majority.

That is why I love Locums. NO MORE SEPTIC REPORTS on my performance
 
Do Studies show doing septic workups/aggressive treatment, early abx improve outcome? I think the answers is Yes

Do studies showing all patients fitting septic criteria improve outcome on these pts? I think the answer is no. You may improve a few truly septic pts but all of the needless blood cultures, Urine cultures, IV Abx, labs, has major downstream costs.

But all the gov/admin is myopic about is improving a tiny fraction of patients but harm a large majority.

That is why I love Locums. NO MORE SEPTIC REPORTS on my performance


Tell me about your locums...
 
Someone posted in another thread an issue about aggressive enforcement of a core measures, specifically, Sepsis CMS Core Measure (SEP-1), such as firing MDs on the spot, with no medical review, appeal or due process.

I can imagine that such aggressive, boot-to-the-throat enforcement measures will spur compliance. And clearly we want to reduce morbidity and mortality from sepsis by treating it early to help patients. However, are their downsides to overly aggressively enforcing this?

To the patient?

To society?

To the MD?

To the employer?

Or is there no extreme to which enforcing a core measure, and specifically this one, can be harmful?


Um, can you link to said thread?
 
Tell me about your locums...

I will tell you that the only emails I respond to is when I don't complete my chart. They can barely get these places staffed and get the full timers in line. I am the least of their worries. If they get the full timers compliant, they will pull me up to compliance. Not a bad deal
 
I will tell you that the only emails I respond to is when I don't complete my chart. They can barely get these places staffed and get the full timers in line. I am the least of their worries. If they get the full timers compliant, they will pull me up to compliance. Not a bad deal


OOH, I love it! Feel free to tell me more. It's like hearing about a vacation....
 
For those of you battling SEP-1, know that as of January 1st, you can use IDEAL BODY WEIGHT in your 30mL/kg bolus of crystalloid calculation, if you document your desire for doing so, in those patients with BMI >30....

Great post!

Another tip is that they consider anything above 125cc/hr a “bolus.” Ridiculously arbitrary. So if you go with 126cc/hr on a CHFer you’re still “good” and can keep your admins off your back.

I’m praying for the day these bogus metrics go away. Until then, I’m working at places that value me providing good care more than these foolish numbers. Locums is indeed a good way to get a reprieve from this BS.



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Great post!

Another tip is that they consider anything above 125cc/hr a “bolus.” Ridiculously arbitrary. So if you go with 126cc/hr on a CHFer you’re still “good” and can keep your admins off your back.

I’m praying for the day these bogus metrics go away. Until then, I’m working at places that value me providing good care more than these foolish numbers. Locums is indeed a good way to get a reprieve from this BS.



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

126cc/h sounds like a lot for a chfer
 
We get audited on this stuff as I'm sure many do.

Didn't give antibiotics early enough? Ding.

Didn't give 30 cc per kg over the first three hours, but did give a very appropriate 1.5 - 2 L bolus even before admission in two hours? Ding.

Lactate? Blood cultures? So on.

Some of it is obvious. And we all know sepsis is important.

But half of my influenza patients this season were "septic". My heart failure patients are sometimes septic but are not so intravascularly depleted that they require that kind of crystalloid, not to mention the potential for harm. My teenager with strep throat? Septic. The 22 year old in the neighboring room who came to the ED with a cold? Just barely septic.

Things have gone too far. Treat the damn patient.
This doesn't even mention the non-septic "septic" patients... like every type 2 lactic acidosis. Overdosed on metformin and your lactic is now 5 because you've basically shut down the liver/Cori Cycle? Sepsis unless someone within the first 48 hours specifically documents "This is not sepsis." Simply ignoring the idiot who thinks lactic acid = sepsis is not enough.
 
We get a "sepsis alert" triggered on every patient who has a HR > 90, RR> 20, fever, or hypotension. We are expected to call a sepsis alert on all of them.

My approach is that if they are young, and obviously not-septic and I anticipate sending them home, I don't do any of the sepsis bull****. Unfortunately they track the admitted patients, so anyone I am admitting I have to go through the motions of sepsis nonsense, even if I don't think they are septic.
 
The gist of the thread was 1 sepsis fall out = request for physician to leave the hospital.

So...is there any particular reason why the ED physicians at that hospital can't get together and agree to present a common front against such nonsensical administrative overreach as firing a doctor without prior warning the first time he misses a bullchit sepsis protocol? Whatever benefit the hospital and/or CMG leadership might have had in mind when they dreamed up such a draconian diktat probably isn't worth the hassle of facing the entire ED staff walking out or engaging in other "union-like" shenanigans.

This seems like the kind of crap the suits are pulling just to test how far they can push you guys before encountering resistance. At some point their overreach will have to be met with a mighty bitch-slap or else the next thing you know they'll demand that the hospital's Vice President of Climate Change Mitigation should be entitled to jus primae noctis with your wives in addition to the massive salary her gets off the back of your work. I'm joking, but not really. If doctors have to suffer the indignity of being employees, they should damn well at least exercise the collective action rights their employee status confers. Otherwise you're getting the worst of both worlds, and needlessly so.
 
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Also, my guess is they will soon be paying a pretty penny for locums. Humans are imperfect and screw up.
 
So...is there any particular reason why the ED physicians at that hospital can't get together and agree to present a common front against such nonsensical administrative overreach as firing a doctor without prior warning the first time he misses a bullchit sepsis protocol?

Because our CMG overlords are all ****** who will do whatever is necessary to maintain a contract, even at the expense of the physicians.
 
Yes, but they will lose all their docs. No one is 100% perfect. Then...well-paid locums!
 
Why would you ever hurt a CHF patient and give them fluids when they don't need it? Just document fluids refused. It's not hard. "Sir the government wants me to drown you in salt water for unclear reasons, would you like me to treat you according to what I think is best for you or drown you?" "okay that's what I thought." I think it's insane that ER doctors are hurting people when it takes half a second to document "fluids refused."
 
Why would you ever hurt a CHF patient and give them fluids when they don't need it? Just document fluids refused. It's not hard. "Sir the government wants me to drown you in salt water for unclear reasons, would you like me to treat you according to what I think is best for you or drown you?" "okay that's what I thought." I think it's insane that ER doctors are hurting people when it takes half a second to document "fluids refused."
I don't know who you are, but, I agree!
 
Because our CMG overlords are all ****** who will do whatever is necessary to maintain a contract, even at the expense of the physicians.

Yeah, but just because the CMG bigwig tells the 20 docs staffing a site to do something, doesn't mean they have to do it, right? Their power isn't unlimited if you guys just say "no."

Here is a ridiculous example to illustrate the point:

What would happen if hospital asked CMG to create a crazy rule where docs have to work 60 days on, 60 days off? I'm pretty sure the response of the docs would be "GET WREKT" and the outcome would be hospital/CMG walking back the ridiculous request or all the doctors collectively quitting at the same time and causing massive disruption, probably leading to the firing of the executives responsible. You know this would happen, since there is no way any human would accept working in the ED for 60 days straight, so thus you know you do have the power to just tell the suits "no."

Likewise, hospital asking CMG to create crazy rule of "one strike and you're out" on a freakin' metric should result in the docs at that site telling CMG overseer thanks but no thanks. Then the suits will have to decide whether to walk back their bullsheit or lose ED coverage and thus risk losing their jobs and potentially setting back their entire career over said metric. I'm pretty sure they'll see the light and be more flexible on the all-important metric once it's their jobs potentially on the line if they keep pushing. I doubt they'll want to tell their boss "oh, by the way, we need a bazillion dollars for locums coverage for the next year or two because we decided in our infinite wisdom to fire the entire ED over a one-strike policy on sepsis metrics." Corporate jobs are not like medicine, if you fall off the ladder once there is a good chance you're not getting back on again. A middle manager in America is one termination away from a lateral move into stocking shelves, so I doubt they'll want to play Russian roulette over ridiculous policies like this one.

The point is these suits will push you only as far as they can get away with, and that depends on you. Look at the nurses, they're almost completely untouchable despite being much more fungible than physicians because they stick together. If you combined the scarcity of physicians with even a pinch of the type of solidarity found among nurses and teachers, the suits would leave you guys well alone.
 
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Too many physicians are pleasers, have too much debt, and are money hungry, all of which has contributed to the decline of the profession.
 
Too many physicians are pleasers, have too much debt, and are money hungry, all of which has contributed to the decline of the profession.
Truth. Our greatest strengths sometimes are our biggest weakness.
 
Not that I'm a huge fan of slippery slope arguments, but some of the quality metrics DO seem reasonable, and likely have improved care.

For example the entire door-to-ballon in 60 minutes push for cardiac cath led to the establishment of rapid transfer protocols, EMS and ED activated cath labs, and an entire aggressive infrastructure which might never have happened otherwise.

So some physicians, having been playing this game for along time, having become used to a dozen quality metrics, press gainey metrics, get-with-the-guideline metrics ad infinintum and just smile, nod, and do their best when new ones come along.

I personally think SEP-1 deserves particular ire, as a composite metric without enough allowable "loopholes" for proper individualized care.

In the happy news side, multiple metrics are being retired very soon--
OP-1 Median Time to Fibrinolysis
OP-4 Aspirin at Arrival
OP-20 Door to Diagnostic Evaluation by a Qualified Medical Professional
OP-21 Median Time to Pain Management for Long Bone Fracture
 
For example the entire door-to-ballon in 60 minutes push for cardiac cath led to the establishment of rapid transfer protocols, EMS and ED activated cath labs, and an entire aggressive infrastructure which might never have happened otherwise.

That may be the only metric that I can think of that has been useful. Are there any others? I can't really think of any off the top of my head.

Also, the reason the example above works is that it is easily implemented:
1) CP as a cc is easier to recognize than stroke or sepsis as a syndrome/dx.
2) Doing an EKG is easy, fast, relatively harmless/cheap and doesn't suck up huge ancillary staff resources like a stroke alert or sepsis alert would.
3) Doing an EKG for someone who ended up having cholecystitis or GERD is an inefficiency we can live with. This is in direct contrast to doing a stroke alert (CT, CTA, MRI, neuro consult, bundles of paperwork and charting to avoid a "fallout") on someone who is hypotensive and happened to have a "weak left hand grip" or a questionable facial droop or who was just "leaning to the left" during their near-syncope.
4) A normal EKG stops the process. Cardiology doesnt get called in until the EKG shows a STEMI. On the other hand, if I don't get the chance to see the pt and take an adequate hx, the stroke alert or trauma alert which was activated in the prehospital setting continues (neurologist gets called, surgeon gets called, all other CTs in the dept don't get done).
 
Ask the administrator(s) to provide their clinical opinion based on the pt’s comorbidities, presentation and labs/studies...then they should document their reasoning in the chart... or order the fluids/management themselves...but that might be difficult without having, you know, like a medical license and stuff.
 
Too many physicians are pleasers, have too much debt, and are money hungry, all of which has contributed to the decline of the profession.

It depends. If it's something contractual (ie. maximum fo 140 hours per month worked) then they can't force us to do anything outside of what's contracted. Most of these employment type issues, along with scheduling, holidays, overtime, etc. are fleshed out in the contract and can't be changed unless both parties agree on a new contract.

The things we are talking about are "hospital metrics" which generally aren't mentioned in our contracts. The hospital can and will change all of the metrics at any time, and will put pressure on the CMGs to make the physicians fall in line. Most of our contracts for full time docs have 90 day, not-for-cause terminations. This essentially allows the CMG to terminate any doctor with 90 days notice, without giving a reason. This is what they use to get rid of a doctor that the hospital is complaining about.

Part-timers like me can be removed at any time with no notice. They simply will remove us from the schedule.
 
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Too many physicians are pleasers, have too much debt, and are money hungry, all of which has contributed to the decline of the profession.
I agree with this. Golden Handcuffs are a real thing. What leverage does a physician have aside from leaving, and sometimes its not possible.
 
I agree with this. Golden Handcuffs are a real thing. What leverage does a physician have aside from leaving, and sometimes its not possible.

Lots and lots of leverage. If you form an ad-hoc "union-lite" type arrangement at your job site you'll have all the leverage you need to combat ridiculous administrative demands like this one. I have no idea why people are ignoring this power and choosing to be lemmings. It truly puzzles me.

As an M1 I did tutoring at a local test prep place. We'd come in on Saturdays and Sundays and do a long block of 10-12 hours at a time, 2 hours per client. The guy who owned the place told us our starting time and ending time depending on how many clients he had lined up for that day. If a client was a no-show, we still got paid because nobody is going to just sit on their arse wasting valuable weekend time for no pay waiting for the next client to show up.

One day the owner told us he was going to change the policy because he doesn't want to pay us to just sit on our butts when a client is a no show. We could have just taken it from behind like chumps but instead we talked to each other after work and agreed to have a conversation with the owner. We told the guy we all agreed that his request that we waste our time for no pay was unreasonable, and explained our line of thought. We didn't threaten to quit, just said we feel very strongly about the issue and urged him to reconsider. He backtracked on the spot because it was obvious his demand was completely ridiculous, and he probably just made it as a shot in the dark to see if we would roll over, fully expecting to have to walk it back at the slightest hint of resistance.

It's really irritating to me that physicians are such putzes. "Administrator tells me and my colleagues to do something and we always say yes sir, as you please sir, but then he always asks us to do more stuff and we say yes sir, as you please sir, why does this mean administrator keep asking us to do more things doesn't he see how nice and compliant we are, unlike those mean unreasonable nurses who just organize and say no? Whaa, there is nothing we can do, whaa!" Ughhh.

Maybe one day you guys will discover this groundbreaking concept called Collective Bargaining, circa the mid 19th century. The internal combustion engine is just around the corner from there, think about how your lives will improve when you no longer have to bend backwards for every single administrative demand thanks to collective bargaining, and can trade in your horse and buggy for a brand new Model T!
 
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Lots and lots of leverage. If you form an ad-hoc "union-lite" type arrangement at your job site you'll have all the leverage you need to combat ridiculous administrative demands like this one. I have no idea why people are ignoring this power and choosing to be lemmings. It truly puzzles me.

As an M1 I did tutoring at a local test prep place. We'd come in on Saturdays and Sundays and do a long block of 10-12 hours at a time, 2 hours per client. The guy who owned the place told us our starting time and ending time depending on how many clients he had lined up for that day. If a client was a no-show, we still got paid because nobody is going to just sit on their arse wasting valuable weekend time for no pay waiting for the next client to show up.

One day the owner told us he was going to change the policy because he doesn't want to pay us to just sit on our butts when a client is a no show. We could have just taken it from behind like chumps but instead we talked to each other after work and agreed to have a conversation with the owner. We told the guy we all agreed that his request that we waste our time for no pay was unreasonable, and explained our line of thought. We didn't threaten to quit, just said we feel very strongly about the issue and urged him to reconsider. He backtracked on the spot because it was obvious his demand was completely ridiculous, and he probably just made it as a shot in the dark to see if we would roll over, fully expecting to have to walk it back at the slightest hint of resistance.

It's really irritating to me that physicians are such putzes. "Administrator tells me and my colleagues to do something and we always say yes sir, as you please sir, but then he always asks us to do more stuff and we say yes sir, as you please sir, why does this mean administrator keep asking us to do more things doesn't he see how nice and compliant we are, unlike those mean unreasonable nurses who just organize and say no? Whaa, there is nothing we can do, whaa!" Ughhh.

Maybe one day you guys will discover this groundbreaking concept called Collective Bargaining, circa the mid 19th century. The internal combustion engine is just around the corner from there, think about how your lives will improve when you no longer have to bend backwards for every single administrative demand thanks to collective bargaining, and can trade in your horse and buggy for a brand new Model T!

Another med student that has it all figured out and will save the day. Yippee. Can't wait for the premeds to weigh in next.
 
Another med student that has it all figured out and will save the day. Yippee. Can't wait for the premeds to weigh in next.

So you quoted my post, didn't address anything in it, and then said I'm a medical student. I think it's fair to consider your non-argument to be an expression of impotent butthurt. Aren't you an intern? What exactly is your business experience, aside from doing scut work for the nursing staff?
 
I love medicine and l love taking care of patients, but I hate the system and it's so hard to see it getting worse year by year. What has saved me is relatively frugal living, a debt-free life, and making sure my ego isn't wrapped up in medicine. ER jobs can be a good servant, but they are a poor master. Sadly, I think we all need to save, look for alternative income streams, and consider alternative work situations like free-standing ERs, occupational health, pain medicine, or simply per diem work. Jobs don't have loyalty to us, and we need to return the favor.
 
I love medicine and l love taking care of patients, but I hate the system and it's so hard to see it getting worse year by year. What has saved me is relatively frugal living, a debt-free life, and making sure my ego isn't wrapped up in medicine.
This is so important and takes a lifetime for some people to learn. Some in Medicine don't ever get to the point they can put this into practice, even in a whole lifetime.
 
The Biggest Barriers To Physicians Standing Up For Themselves: Self-Image, Social-Image, Income.


Self Image

One thing most physicians pride themselves on, whether consciously or unconsciously, is our self-image as being hyper-successful at rule following. We literally spend decades doing nothing but that: Read book chapter, learn rules/laws/concepts of (insert subject), rinse and repeat until we're blue in the face. We pride ourselves on doing that better than the last 10,000 people we passed in Walmart. Combine that with the fact, that in the physician academic culture we are molded in, we beat any streak of rebellion out of ourselves and our trainees and make them beg for mercy and a second chance for stepping out of the herd. This impairs our ability to stand up for ourselves as effectively as we should and those in control use this a leverage against us.

All along our life cycles, from birth as pre-meds, to medical students, through residency and into practice, we expel the rebels, we cast out the firebrands, bully anyone on the edges into compliance, all while breeding and rewarding, compliant and robotic sheep. Show up to a pre-med interest group with purple hair, and you're mocked, cast out. Show up to a medical school interview with a nose ring and an attitude; sorry, reapply next year. Show up to residency match interviews with a neck tat that says, "Fight the power," and guess what, you're not going to match. Show up to job interviews on a Harley, with sleeved arms, and brag about how you excel at rebellion, upsetting the apple cart and questioning authority and, "Thanks, but no thanks. We're continuing to interview." We've effectively purged ourselves, our profession almost entirely of the traits and the people we would most need to harness and rely on to stand up for ourselves most effectively.

The act of collective bargaining, and using that power to create chaos, panic, disruption in the system your trying to change, in by its very nature a rebellion. It is not the act of pleasing your supervisors, as we are trained to do. It is not the act of negotiating in good faith. It is the opposite. It is not the act of raising your voice at the negotiating table. It is the act of turning the negotiating table over. It is not the act of watching negotiations break down. It is the act of making them break down. It is the act of being more pissed off, than wanting to go forward another minute as things stand. It's the act of saying, "No! ---- you! I'd rather have no job, than this ---ty job, on your s----y terms. I'd rather get 6 months behind on my house payment or get fired, than bow my head down and say, 'Yes, Sir. Thank you, Sir,' one more day."

If you're not willing to walk away from negotiations, walk away from your job, and risk it all for a new way forward, because you're too afraid to break the perceived "rules," then your negotiating power just drops 10 fold. The people making the rules that govern us, know this.

So it's no surprise that when we expect ourselves as a group, to do what comes naturally to the Steel Workers, Teamsters and Auto Workers Unions, we fall flat on our faces before even getting started. When put up next to those groups in a competition to stand up for ourselves and fight the power, they beat us 100-1, dunking right over us, laughing, mocking, trash talking, all day long, with no fear of a brawl even breaking out.


Income

Hospital CEOs, insurance company executives and government players also know that doctors, 99 out of 100 times, give up at the first threat of losing their job or pausing their upper class, hyper-spending lifestyle for even a day. They know the lifestyles we live and they know many of us, after many years of living on a shoestring budget in training, quickly ramp up our lifestyles to levels we struggle to support, even on our high incomes. They know this, and they use this as leverage against us. A doctor that has 6 months of living expenses to fall back on, is an entirely different animal to be backed into a corner by, than one how lives paycheck to paycheck and is over-leveraged, just hoping he will still be able to make the next payment for his boat, private-school, kids' camp, McMansion, vacation house, luxury car, golf-club, student loan or lawn service.


Social Image

The powers that be know, maybe even more than we know, how much we value our public and social image. They know at the first threat of losing our reputation as being a 'pillar of the community,' as altruistic, blue-ribbon, rule-following, patient helping, white-hat/white-coat, good guys and gals, which we would lose in a strike that has the perception of putting patients at risk, that we back down. They’re also happy to feed our belief in an outdated, extinct, social-structure, that we're in charge of anything more than what a nurse, patient, administrator, government regulator or insurance company clerk decides they'll allow us to be in charge of, on any given day. They're happy to play along with that mass hallucination, as long as we (you guess it!), follow their rules.

Whether or not we need to do better at standing up for ourselves as physicians, is without question. How do most effectively do so, is the question, whether from within the system or by revolting against it. And in general, we're absolutely terrible at standing up for ourselves. For everything we get an A+ at, we get F's all day long for standing up to a bully, whether it's a CMG, hospital, government or insurance company bully. And if you're not ready for a fight, to stand up to the bullies in healthcare-business, government, the insurance companies, and if you're not ready or willing to be called bad names, in public, in the press, by those who you're used to kissing your ---, then you might as well just suck it up, drop your head down, collect your check and be thankful for what you have, while trying to make changes within the system, and without having to tear down the system. And despite having plenty to be irritated about, I honestly think that's where most physicians are at today, with incomes being what they are. I don't think the majority of physicians, not even 5%, have the will or guts for a mass revolt, a strike or meaningful collective bargaining.

That being said, people are starting to get angry about pointless metrics, MOC over-reach, over-regulation, cuts in reimbursement, Obamacare and the corporatization of Medicine. That's a good sign. If these got bad enough, I expect attitudes may change.

But, before you decide you're a rebel, a renegade, ready to risk it all to stand up for yourself, ask yourself if you truly are. And ask yourself if the other 10,000 doctors you'd need to stand by your side have what it takes, to fight the power, and take the onslaught of slings and arrow that would come their way from something like a regional or national physician strike, truly are. Realize, that until the masses of your hyper-compliant physician colleagues also are pissed off enough, to do the exact thing, that's been bred, beaten and bullied out of their personalities and ranks and risk what they consider the most important benefits of their careers (self-image, social-image, income), that you’ll likely have to also find your own solutions and adaptations, that work for you on a personal level.
 
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So you quoted my post, didn't address anything in it, and then said I'm a medical student. I think it's fair to consider your non-argument to be an expression of impotent butthurt. Aren't you an intern? What exactly is your business experience, aside from doing scut work for the nursing staff?

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The Biggest Barriers To Physicians Standing Up For Themselves: Self-Image, Social-Image, Income.


Self Image

One thing most physicians pride themselves on, whether consciously or unconsciously, is our self-image as being hyper-successful at rule following. We literally spend decades doing nothing but that: Read book chapter, learn rules/laws/concepts of (insert subject), rinse and repeat until we're blue in the face. We pride ourselves on doing that better than the last 10,000 people we passed in Walmart. Combine that with the fact, that in the physician academic culture we are molded in, we beat any streak of rebellion out of ourselves and our trainees and make them beg for mercy and a second chance for stepping out of the herd. This impairs our ability to stand up for ourselves as effectively as we should and those in control use this a leverage against us.

All along our life cycles, from birth as pre-meds, to medical students, through residency and into practice, we expel the rebels, we cast out the firebrands, bully anyone on the edges into compliance, all while breeding and rewarding, compliant and robotic sheep. Show up to a pre-med interest group with purple hair, and you're mocked, cast out. Show up to a medical school interview with a nose ring and an attitude; sorry, reapply next year. Show up to residency match interviews with a neck tat that says, "Fight the power," and guess what, you're not going to match. Show up to job interviews on a Harley, with sleeved arms, and brag about how you excel at rebellion, upsetting the apple cart and questioning authority and, "Thanks, but no thanks. We're continuing to interview." We've effectively purged ourselves, our profession almost entirely of the traits and the people we would most need to harness and rely on to stand up for ourselves most effectively.

The act of collective bargaining, and using that power to create chaos, panic, disruption in the system your trying to change, in by its very nature a rebellion. It is not the act of pleasing your supervisors, as we are trained to do. It is not the act of negotiating in good faith. It is the opposite. It is not the act of raising your voice at the negotiating table. It is the act of turning the negotiating table over. It is not the act of watching negotiations break down. It is the act of making them break down. It is the act of being more pissed off, than wanting to go forward another minute as things stand. It's the act of saying, "No! ---- you! I'd rather have no job, than this ---ty job, on your s----y terms. I'd rather get 6 months behind on my house payment or get fired, than bow my head down and say, 'Yes, Sir. Thank you, Sir,' one more day."

If you're not willing to walk away from negotiations, walk away from your job, and risk it all for a new way forward, because you're too afraid to break the perceived "rules," then your negotiating power just drops 10 fold. The people making the rules that govern us, know this.

So it's no surprise that when we expect ourselves as a group, to do what comes naturally to the Steel Workers, Teamsters and Auto Workers Unions, we fall flat on our faces before even getting started. When put up next to those groups in a competition to stand up for ourselves and fight the power, they beat us 100-1, dunking right over us, laughing, mocking, trash talking, all day long, with no fear of a brawl even breaking out.


Income

Hospital CEOs, insurance company executives and government players also know that doctors, 99 out of 100 times, give up at the first threat of losing their job or pausing their upper class, hyper-spending lifestyle for even a day. They know the lifestyles we live and they know many of us, after many years of living on a shoestring budget in training, quickly ramp up our lifestyles to levels we struggle to support, even on our high incomes. They know this, and they use this as leverage against us. A doctor that has 6 months of living expenses to fall back on, is an entirely different animal to be backed into a corner by, than one how lives paycheck to paycheck and is over-leveraged, just hoping he will still be able to make the next payment for his boat, private-school, kids' camp, McMansion, vacation house, luxury car, golf-club, student loan or lawn service.


Social Image

The powers that be know, maybe even more than we know, how much we value our public and social image. They know at the first threat of losing our reputation as being a 'pillar of the community,' as altruistic, blue-ribbon, rule-following, patient helping, white-hat/white-coat, good guys and gals, which we would lose in a strike that has the perception of putting patients at risk, that we back down. They’re also happy to feed our belief in an outdated, extinct, social-structure, that we're in charge of anything more than what a nurse, patient, administrator, government regulator or insurance company clerk decides they'll allow us to be in charge of, on any given day. They're happy to play along with that mass hallucination, as long as we (you guess it!), follow their rules.

Whether or not we need to do better at standing up for ourselves as physicians, is without question. How do most effectively do so, is the question, whether from within the system or by revolting against it. And in general, we're absolutely terrible at standing up for ourselves. For everything we get an A+ at, we get F's all day long for standing up to a bully, whether it's a CMG, hospital, government or insurance company bully. And if you're not ready for a fight, to stand up to the bullies in healthcare-business, government, the insurance companies, and if you're not ready or willing to be called bad names, in public, in the press, by those who you're used to kissing your ---, then you might as well just suck it up, drop your head down, collect your check and be thankful for what you have, while trying to make changes within the system, and without having to tear down the system. And despite having plenty to be irritated about, I honestly think that's where most physicians are at today, with incomes being what they are. I don't think the majority of physicians, not even 5%, have the will or guts for a mass revolt, a strike or meaningful collective bargaining.

That being said, people are starting to get angry about pointless metrics, MOC over-reach, over-regulation, cuts in reimbursement, Obamacare and the corporatization of Medicine. That's a good sign. If these got bad enough, I expect attitudes may change.

But, before you decide you're a rebel, a renegade, ready to risk it all to stand up for yourself, ask yourself if you truly are. And ask yourself if the other 10,000 doctors you'd need to stand by your side have what it takes, to fight the power, and take the onslaught of slings and arrow that would come their way from something like a regional or national physician strike, truly are. Realize, that until the masses of your hyper-compliant physician colleagues also are pissed off enough, to do the exact thing, that's been bred, beaten and bullied out of their personalities and ranks and risk what they consider the most important benefits of their careers (self-image, social-image, income), that you’ll likely have to also find your own solutions and adaptations, that work for you on a personal level.


Preach. I am staying through my pension vesting this fall and then I'm out. One of the reasons nurses are winning as clinicians is their talent for unionizing and collective action. I want to dye my hair purple and I'm done. I spend nothing. I am blissfully immune to social pressure and have no interest in image. I'm not a pleaser (greatest strength, greatest weakness) and the inability of my colleagues to exert any spine or any balls is becoming tiresome. I'm OTD and FI. And it's sad, because the best of us as physicians are not the compliant ones, but the ones who rebel and advocate.

Thank you for your post, and for the time you devoted to it.
 
Oh, Bird, I should add- I'm not sure what will work for me on a personal level. But I'm assuming that with no debt and a seven figure net worth, I can take a bit of time to figure it out. There's always another ****ty locums gig otherwise....

Open to any suggestions, although I realize it's a very personal journey to a solution....
 
I hope so. It's hard not to be greedy, and with EM becoming impossible for older docs, it's hard to make the break. I appreciate your career path and am IMPRESSED, but we each need to find our own way. I look at so many EM jobs now and just laugh. $210 NE Ohio, IC, must be full time? Who is going to take that? Aside from the fact that as an IC, they can't dictate your hours. $180 an hour in Alabama? Are they looking for a doctor? Really? $160 an hour in Louisiana? $160 in the medmal hellhole of Chicago?

But I haven't escaped yet. No boats, no mansions, no new cars for me. But it's still hard to escape completely. And our materialistic brethen have let us down.

Thank you for your inspiration, and your words.
 
The Biggest Barriers To Physicians Standing Up For Themselves: Self-Image, Social-Image, Income.


Self Image

One thing most physicians pride themselves on, whether consciously or unconsciously, is our self-image as being hyper-successful at rule following. We literally spend decades doing nothing but that: Read book chapter, learn rules/laws/concepts of (insert subject), rinse and repeat until we're blue in the face. We pride ourselves on doing that better than the last 10,000 people we passed in Walmart. Combine that with the fact, that in the physician academic culture we are molded in, we beat any streak of rebellion out of ourselves and our trainees and make them beg for mercy and a second chance for stepping out of the herd. This impairs our ability to stand up for ourselves as effectively as we should and those in control use this a leverage against us.

All along our life cycles, from birth as pre-meds, to medical students, through residency and into practice, we expel the rebels, we cast out the firebrands, bully anyone on the edges into compliance, all while breeding and rewarding, compliant and robotic sheep. Show up to a pre-med interest group with purple hair, and you're mocked, cast out. Show up to a medical school interview with a nose ring and an attitude; sorry, reapply next year. Show up to residency match interviews with a neck tat that says, "Fight the power," and guess what, you're not going to match. Show up to job interviews on a Harley, with sleeved arms, and brag about how you excel at rebellion, upsetting the apple cart and questioning authority and, "Thanks, but no thanks. We're continuing to interview." We've effectively purged ourselves, our profession almost entirely of the traits and the people we would most need to harness and rely on to stand up for ourselves most effectively.

The act of collective bargaining, and using that power to create chaos, panic, disruption in the system your trying to change, in by its very nature a rebellion. It is not the act of pleasing your supervisors, as we are trained to do. It is not the act of negotiating in good faith. It is the opposite. It is not the act of raising your voice at the negotiating table. It is the act of turning the negotiating table over. It is not the act of watching negotiations break down. It is the act of making them break down. It is the act of being more pissed off, than wanting to go forward another minute as things stand. It's the act of saying, "No! ---- you! I'd rather have no job, than this ---ty job, on your s----y terms. I'd rather get 6 months behind on my house payment or get fired, than bow my head down and say, 'Yes, Sir. Thank you, Sir,' one more day."

If you're not willing to walk away from negotiations, walk away from your job, and risk it all for a new way forward, because you're too afraid to break the perceived "rules," then your negotiating power just drops 10 fold. The people making the rules that govern us, know this.

So it's no surprise that when we expect ourselves as a group, to do what comes naturally to the Steel Workers, Teamsters and Auto Workers Unions, we fall flat on our faces before even getting started. When put up next to those groups in a competition to stand up for ourselves and fight the power, they beat us 100-1, dunking right over us, laughing, mocking, trash talking, all day long, with no fear of a brawl even breaking out.


Income

Hospital CEOs, insurance company executives and government players also know that doctors, 99 out of 100 times, give up at the first threat of losing their job or pausing their upper class, hyper-spending lifestyle for even a day. They know the lifestyles we live and they know many of us, after many years of living on a shoestring budget in training, quickly ramp up our lifestyles to levels we struggle to support, even on our high incomes. They know this, and they use this as leverage against us. A doctor that has 6 months of living expenses to fall back on, is an entirely different animal to be backed into a corner by, than one how lives paycheck to paycheck and is over-leveraged, just hoping he will still be able to make the next payment for his boat, private-school, kids' camp, McMansion, vacation house, luxury car, golf-club, student loan or lawn service.


Social Image

The powers that be know, maybe even more than we know, how much we value our public and social image. They know at the first threat of losing our reputation as being a 'pillar of the community,' as altruistic, blue-ribbon, rule-following, patient helping, white-hat/white-coat, good guys and gals, which we would lose in a strike that has the perception of putting patients at risk, that we back down. They’re also happy to feed our belief in an outdated, extinct, social-structure, that we're in charge of anything more than what a nurse, patient, administrator, government regulator or insurance company clerk decides they'll allow us to be in charge of, on any given day. They're happy to play along with that mass hallucination, as long as we (you guess it!), follow their rules.

Whether or not we need to do better at standing up for ourselves as physicians, is without question. How do most effectively do so, is the question, whether from within the system or by revolting against it. And in general, we're absolutely terrible at standing up for ourselves. For everything we get an A+ at, we get F's all day long for standing up to a bully, whether it's a CMG, hospital, government or insurance company bully. And if you're not ready for a fight, to stand up to the bullies in healthcare-business, government, the insurance companies, and if you're not ready or willing to be called bad names, in public, in the press, by those who you're used to kissing your ---, then you might as well just suck it up, drop your head down, collect your check and be thankful for what you have, while trying to make changes within the system, and without having to tear down the system. And despite having plenty to be irritated about, I honestly think that's where most physicians are at today, with incomes being what they are. I don't think the majority of physicians, not even 5%, have the will or guts for a mass revolt, a strike or meaningful collective bargaining.

That being said, people are starting to get angry about pointless metrics, MOC over-reach, over-regulation, cuts in reimbursement, Obamacare and the corporatization of Medicine. That's a good sign. If these got bad enough, I expect attitudes may change.

But, before you decide you're a rebel, a renegade, ready to risk it all to stand up for yourself, ask yourself if you truly are. And ask yourself if the other 10,000 doctors you'd need to stand by your side have what it takes, to fight the power, and take the onslaught of slings and arrow that would come their way from something like a regional or national physician strike, truly are. Realize, that until the masses of your hyper-compliant physician colleagues also are pissed off enough, to do the exact thing, that's been bred, beaten and bullied out of their personalities and ranks and risk what they consider the most important benefits of their careers (self-image, social-image, income), that you’ll likely have to also find your own solutions and adaptations, that work for you on a personal level.

Why I'm not that interested in collective bargaining:

In one way doctors are fundamentally different from UAW, nursing unions, test tutors, etc: we're much closer to freedom than most of them. If your average doctor chooses a decent middle-class life with minimal debt, they are able to just play along with this ridiculous system for 10 years and then FIRE and go do something else. Not really very much time compared to the ~25y spent before that in our ridiculous education system.

I'm guessing the UAW people don't make that much money and so never had that option. They knew that they were in it for the long haul and so they needed stable working conditions. A pension after 20 years with full benefits was about as good as it could ever get for them.

I only become interested in collective bargaining if my compensation gets low enough that a 20 year pension starts to look like the best I can get. I completely expect my job to get worse in the next few years, but not to that level.
 
I don't want to unionize either. I don't want to pay dues to any organization that may not represent my viewpoints.

The best way for doctors to improve our job and our lives is to become better businessmen. Most doctors I work with don't understand the economic of ED medicine, and barely understand things like taxes, incorporating etc. If we could all be educated in our own business, we would be in a better situation to negotiate with the CMGs, and make sure we are treated fairly. Right now they rely on our collective ignorance to use our education and training for their own profit.
 
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