DPT vs. MPT vs. PT

[Shah_Patel_PT]

I think the degree of DPT is much less common than a MPT. What do you guys think?

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[PT2MD]

True but they are all transitioning to DPT by 2020. I work with several DPT's, but there is no difference in scope.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

How is the current PT field in the USA? Are there abundant job opportunites?

And how much are senior Rehab directors paid....(who were former PTs)?

How high a position can an MPT candidate attain?

 

[PT2MD]

Most rehab and clinical directors are MPT. DPT is relatively new so younger therapists tend to hold this credential. I would imagine the salary varies with setting and location, but $65-$85 is reasonable for a good administrator.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Most rehab and clinical directors are MPT. DPT is relatively new so younger therapists tend to hold this credential. I would imagine the salary varies with setting and location, but $65-$85 is reasonable for a good administrator.

Is it true that these Rehab directors with around 4 years experience make more than 100K?

 

[PT2MD]

Not that I'm aware. My earning potential is in excess of $100K but everything has to happen right in the business...max profit and incentives. I have yet to see any PT clinic director with that kind of base salary. Now group and regional directors are probably different stories.

The downside to the upper admin positions is lack of patient interaction. This to me is a downside. I can make more money, but I'm not done being a clinician. This is part of the reason I'm going into medicine.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Not that I'm aware. My earning potential is in excess of $100K but everything has to happen right in the business...max profit and incentives. I have yet to see any PT clinic director with that kind of base salary. Now group and regional directors are probably different stories.

The downside to the upper admin positions is lack of patient interaction. This to me is a downside. I can make more money, but I'm not done being a clinician. This is part of the reason I'm going into medicine.

What is diff about them? Are they the ones that make more money? What qualifications do you need for those positions?

 

[PT2MD]

Business sense and experience administrating.

 

[patrickd223]

I am still in my undergrad and I work in a thriving physical therapy clinic near atlanta where we see 140 patients per week with only 1 full time therapist and one part time therapist(8 hours a week). Average charge for units is around $150 per patient per visit, say that is reimbursed @ 50% than you have $21,000 per week or $1,092,000 annually. Given this is all revenue, those are some pretty fat numbers.

 

[PT2MD]

I am still in my undergrad and I work in a thriving physical therapy clinic near atlanta where we see 140 patients per week with only 1 full time therapist and one part time therapist(8 hours a week). Average charge for units is around $150 per patient per visit, say that is reimbursed @ 50% than you have $21,000 per week or $1,092,000 annually. Given this is all revenue, those are some pretty fat numbers.

WHOAAA...Easy there trigger. There are some important things you are leaving out of that equation.

First of all. They are charging $150 per visit and getting paid at 50%? That means the net revenue per visit is around $75 per visit. If you run that out the revenue is around $500k per year. Once you take out expenses including salary and the other (very expensive) costs of running the practice, you are left with probably about $10K per month in profit.

Secondly. The volume of patients seen per week is pretty freaky. 140 patients for 1.5 full time therapists? That works out to nearly 19 patients per therapist per day. ((Visits in a week/5) / # of full-time therapists) = patients per day. Your therapist is either wearing out five pairs of shoes a week or providing marginal (possibly overbilling) care based on this number of visits. Even HealthSouth isn't that cruel with a productivity expectation of around 15 per day.

Lastly. If your therapist is getting reimbursed $150 per visit, I need to know what kind of a lap dance he/she provided to the insurance companies to get that kind of rate. That is freakishly high.

Not trying to dash your hopes, but you have to take an honest look at the numbers there. PTs make a good living (I know...I are one). However, running a business is never as easy as it may seem and reimbursement is shrinking at a rate that really pisses me off sometimes.

I gotta ton of experience in this area and let me know if I can offer any help.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

WHOAAA...Easy there trigger. There are some important things you are leaving out of that equation.

First of all. They are charging $150 per visit and getting paid at 50%? That means the net revenue per visit is around $75 per visit. If you run that out the revenue is around $500k per year. Once you take out expenses including salary and the other (very expensive) costs of running the practice, you are left with probably about $10K per month in profit.

Secondly. The volume of patients seen per week is pretty freaky. 140 patients for 1.5 full time therapists? That works out to nearly 19 patients per therapist per day. ((Visits in a week/5) / # of full-time therapists) = patients per day. Your therapist is either wearing out five pairs of shoes a week or providing marginal (possibly overbilling) care based on this number of visits. Even HealthSouth isn't that cruel with a productivity expectation of around 15 per day.

Lastly. If your therapist is getting reimbursed $150 per visit, I need to know what kind of a lap dance he/she provided to the insurance companies to get that kind of rate. That is freakishly high.

Not trying to dash your hopes, but you have to take an honest look at the numbers there. PTs make a good living (I know...I are one). However, running a business is never as easy as it may seem and reimbursement is shrinking at a rate that really pisses me off sometimes.

I gotta ton of experience in this area and let me know if I can offer any help.

lol! Thanks for the reality check!

 

[patrickd223]

WHOAAA...Easy there trigger. There are some important things you are leaving out of that equation.

First of all. They are charging $150 per visit and getting paid at 50%? That means the net revenue per visit is around $75 per visit. If you run that out the revenue is around $500k per year. Once you take out expenses including salary and the other (very expensive) costs of running the practice, you are left with probably about $10K per month in profit.

Secondly. The volume of patients seen per week is pretty freaky. 140 patients for 1.5 full time therapists? That works out to nearly 19 patients per therapist per day. ((Visits in a week/5) / # of full-time therapists) = patients per day. Your therapist is either wearing out five pairs of shoes a week or providing marginal (possibly overbilling) care based on this number of visits. Even HealthSouth isn't that cruel with a productivity expectation of around 15 per day.

Lastly. If your therapist is getting reimbursed $150 per visit, I need to know what kind of a lap dance he/she provided to the insurance companies to get that kind of rate. That is freakishly high.

Not trying to dash your hopes, but you have to take an honest look at the numbers there. PTs make a good living (I know...I are one). However, running a business is never as easy as it may seem and reimbursement is shrinking at a rate that really pisses me off sometimes.

I gotta ton of experience in this area and let me know if I can offer any help.

I didnt say 'reimbursed 150, i said charge 150 and reimbursed @ 50% (Im not 100% sure on that but that is what I heard). Okay so i forgot to divide by 2, but still you cannot deny that there is money to be made. As for you questioning how many patients we see... I dont know what to tell you, I only know what I know and that is what we see. We ussually have 4 or 5 patients at a time running around. I am the 'PT Aide' that runs them through their exercise programs that the PT writes. That frees up the PT's time to do the stuff I cant do like ultrasounds, manipulations, traction and whatever else. Our record is 43 patients in one day (given all except 1 were follow ups) with 1.5 therapists.(part time therapist came in from 3-7. Also, we are open from 7 to 7 so that may explain why we see more. Still, I would easily estimate our avg per day is atleast 20. DPT is very experienced and handles the volume well. I dont think we compromise treatment for the volume that we take although we might compromise our health . 3-4 cups of coffee a day seem to do the trick 👍

 

[PT2MD]

I definitely won't deny that there are dollars to be made, but you just want to go into this process armed with all the facts. PT is a great profession, but I'm heading for more clinical responsibility as well as even greener pastures.

 

[bigdan]

Don't forget that Scrushy made money over at Healthsouth with "high volume"

He had the "bill 5 to stay alive" motto. Too bad he had janitors doing the therapy.

dc

 

[PT2MD]

Don't forget that Scrushy made money over at Healthsouth with "high volume"

He had the "bill 5 to stay alive" motto. Too bad he had janitors doing the therapy.

dc

Yeah. He didn't make life any easier on the therapists out there trying to do things above the board. A few bad apples...

 

[blast7]

I didnt say 'reimbursed 150, i said charge 150 and reimbursed @ 50% (Im not 100% sure on that but that is what I heard). Okay so i forgot to divide by 2, but still you cannot deny that there is money to be made. As for you questioning how many patients we see... I dont know what to tell you, I only know what I know and that is what we see. We ussually have 4 or 5 patients at a time running around. I am the 'PT Aide' that runs them through their exercise programs that the PT writes. That frees up the PT's time to do the stuff I cant do like ultrasounds, manipulations, traction and whatever else. Our record is 43 patients in one day (given all except 1 were follow ups) with 1.5 therapists.(part time therapist came in from 3-7. Also, we are open from 7 to 7 so that may explain why we see more. Still, I would easily estimate our avg per day is atleast 20. DPT is very experienced and handles the volume well. I dont think we compromise treatment for the volume that we take although we might compromise our health . 3-4 cups of coffee a day seem to do the trick 👍

Did you say PT aide or PT assistant. If you said aide then what you are doing is illegal and fraudulent to the insurance company. And even if you were an assistant I hope all of those codes are billed as group therapy.

 

[PT2MD]

It's actually fraudulent only if it's a federal payer like Medicare. If it's a commercial payer like Aetna or Cigna, it falls into a grey area. I try to make sure federal and commercial patients are scheduled and billed the same way.

I could bend the guidelines more on the commercial patients, but I sleep better doing it this way. Commercial payers follow federal guidelines with some important exceptions. Believe me, there is some bean counter out there who will find out if you are charging commercial patients differently than federal.

They will make a not-so-polite request for their money back or just skip to the whole suing thing...either way it's best not to even attempt to "work" the system and make it seem like you can make a killing in physical therapy. The bottom line is you can't make a killing, but you can make a decent living in a very respectable field of health care.

 

[surf pt]

The bottom line is you can't make a killing, but you can make a decent living in a very respectable field of health care.

Well put. PT is about the type of practice and the lifestyle. Its not for everyone, and you definately wont make a killing.