Dual Program Pharmacy

[Silverfalcon]

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Hi there,

First post on Pre-Pharmacy forum, so please allow any mistake if I should know better by searching. 🙂

I'm posting this behalf on one of my friends from high school, so this isn't about me. I'm already in undergrad, fulfilling requirements for medical school etc, so I thought I would get some wisdom from current students in UG who are in pharmacy program.

My friend is considering a dual program where the student receives admission to both undergraduate and pharmacy school. The main reason is that he strongly dislikes standardized tests, and some pharmacy programs allow students to bypass the PCAT requirement. If he has to take it, then he'll take it assuming that he's in the dual program. He's a good student, but one of those people that just can't show his full potential in the standardized tests (like SAT).

He told me that so far he has looked into some schools in Midwestern with Chicago, but not much with other places. Does anyone here have other suggestions for dual programs? Also, if there is a generous financial package (anywhere from certain amount to full tuition, etc...), that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again! 🙂

 

[delano2000]

Hi there,

First post on Pre-Pharmacy forum, so please allow any mistake if I should know better by searching. 🙂

I'm posting this behalf on one of my friends from high school, so this isn't about me. I'm already in undergrad, fulfilling requirements for medical school etc, so I thought I would get some wisdom from current students in UG who are in pharmacy program.

My friend is considering a dual program where the student receives admission to both undergraduate and pharmacy school. The main reason is that he strongly dislikes standardized tests, and some pharmacy programs allow students to bypass the PCAT requirement. If he has to take it, then he'll take it assuming that he's in the dual program. He's a good student, but one of those people that just can't show his full potential in the standardized tests (like SAT).

He told me that so far he has looked into some schools in Midwestern with Chicago, but not much with other places. Does anyone here have other suggestions for dual programs? Also, if there is a generous financial package (anywhere from certain amount to full tuition, etc...), that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again! 🙂

Those or not really considered dual programs. They are called 0+6 pharmacy programs. They are competitive and AdCom does take into consideration the SAT scores. I think that is pretty standard for all universities. In the 0+6 program, they are accepted straight out of high school and are guaranteed a spot in the professional phase of the program provided that they meet and maintain certain criteria eg. GPA above 3.0 (just an example).

LIU, Rutgers, St. Johns, St. Louis COP, Massachusetts- Boston are a few that come to mind. U of the Pacific has a 2+3 program for qualified first-time freshmen. Usually if the applicant has a stellar GPA and SAT scores then they can receive a pretty decent scholarship package from those schools.

 

[Silverfalcon]

Those or not really considered dual programs. They are called 0+6 pharmacy programs. They are competitive and AdCom does take into consideration the SAT scores. I think that is pretty standard for all universities. In the 0+6 program, they are accepted straight out of high school and are guaranteed a spot in the professional phase of the program provided that they meet and maintain certain criteria eg. GPA above 3.0 (just an example).

LIU, Rutgers, St. Johns, St. Louis COP, Massachusetts- Boston are a few that come to mind. U of the Pacific has a 2+3 program for qualified first-time freshmen. Usually if the applicant has a stellar GPA and SAT scores then they can receive a pretty decent scholarship package from those schools.

Thank you for the fast response!

As far as I know, his SAT scores are in 1900's but less than 2000's. I don't know about the breakdown though - not sure if that's considered relatively high? Also, I'll tell him to look at the requirements, but are the SAT requirements based on more on Critical Reading and Math? That's how it was for me when I was looking into dual programs for pre-med (most schools didn't care about writing).

He's in top 1% of his class and has taken 2 years of bio (no AP offered at the school), 2 years of general chemistry, and will be taking physics upcoming year [senior year this fall].

And one more question. I just looked up the 0+6 program you mentioned (thank you so much for mentioning this! It gave good searches in the internet 😀), and there seems to be a difference between "early assurance" and "0+6" program.

From AACP:

These programs ["early assurance"] are not categorized as "0-6" because the majority of students enrolled are admitted as "transfer" students after completion of at least two years of college.

I'm not sure about what it means by "transfer" students. Does this mean that the applicant will have to file for transfer and get accepted to a different pharmacy school? Or is it for that institution (e.g. turn in LOR, show that GPA was maintained, etc...)?

Thank you again.

 

[delano2000]

Thank you for the fast response!

As far as I know, his SAT scores are in 1900's but less than 2000's. I don't know about the breakdown though - not sure if that's considered relatively high? Also, I'll tell him to look at the requirements, but are the SAT requirements based on more on Critical Reading and Math? That's how it was for me when I was looking into dual programs for pre-med (most schools didn't care about writing).

He's in top 1% of his class and has taken 2 years of bio (no AP offered at the school), 2 years of general chemistry, and will be taking physics upcoming year [senior year this fall].

And one more question. I just looked up the 0+6 program you mentioned (thank you so much for mentioning this! It gave good searches in the internet 😀), and there seems to be a difference between "early assurance" and "0+6" program.

From AACP:

I'm not sure about what it means by "transfer" students. Does this mean that the applicant will have to file for transfer and get accepted to a different pharmacy school? Or is it for that institution (e.g. turn in LOR, show that GPA was maintained, etc...)?

Thank you again.

In a 0+6 program an applicant is accepted right out of high school so no prior college coursework is needed. In early assurance I think it means that selected students granted early admission status, must successfully complete the first 2 yrs of pre-reqs and then they are guaranteed a position in the PharmD program based on those requirements. Think of it as being the school giving preference to that student based on the agreement that the student completes the first 2 years successfully, then they are guaranteed a spot in the next class.


These are some of the schools I found using that early assurance type of program:
Butler University
Campbell University
Drake University
Ferris State University
Harding University
Howard University
Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences- Boston
Mercer University
Midwestern University/Downers Grove
Northeastern University
Nova Southeastern University
The Ohio State University
Oregon State University
Palm Beach Atlantic University
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey
St. Louis College of Pharmacy
Shenandoah University
Sullivan University
Union University
University at Buffalo, The State University of New York
University of Colorado Denver
University of Kentucky

 

[Silverfalcon]

In a 0+6 program an applicant is accepted right out of high school so no prior college coursework is needed. In early assurance I think it means that selected students granted early admission status, must successfully complete the first 2 yrs of pre-reqs and then they are guaranteed a position in the PharmD program based on those requirements. Think of it as being the school giving preference to that student based on the agreement that the student completes the first 2 years successfully, then they are guaranteed a spot in the next class.


These are some of the schools I found using that early assurance type of program:
Butler University
Campbell University
Drake University
Ferris State University
Harding University
Howard University
Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences- Boston
Mercer University
Midwestern University/Downers Grove
Northeastern University
Nova Southeastern University
The Ohio State University
Oregon State University
Palm Beach Atlantic University
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey
St. Louis College of Pharmacy
Shenandoah University
Sullivan University
Union University
University at Buffalo, The State University of New York
University of Colorado Denver
University of Kentucky

Awesome, thank you for the list and clarification!

This isn't his question but actually my own. Does pre-pharmacy program also come with the "weed out" courses like in pre-med? Like, I just wonder if the institutions for early assurance take a lot of students under the premise of conditional acceptance and try to limit its students in that 2 years of time?

In other words, at my UG, nearly everyone I met at the orientation two years ago said that they were pre-med. Of course, only selective number of students remain that way, and some have switched from pre-med to PT, PA, etc..Of course, we weren't in "early assurance" program or anything like that though. Just curious how it is for pre-pharmacy since I see you are currently pharmacy student.

Thanks again!

 

[delano2000]

Awesome, thank you for the list and clarification!

This isn't his question but actually my own. Does pre-pharmacy program also come with the "weed out" courses like in pre-med? Like, I just wonder if the institutions for early assurance take a lot of students under the premise of conditional acceptance and try to limit its students in that 2 years of time?

In other words, at my UG, nearly everyone I met at the orientation two years ago said that they were pre-med. Of course, only selective number of students remain that way, and some have switched from pre-med to PT, PA, etc..Of course, we weren't in "early assurance" program or anything like that though. Just curious how it is for pre-pharmacy since I see you are currently pharmacy student.

Thanks again!

I doubt they would accept that many students under that type of program, but if they do, some people may not meet the requirements and the offer could be rescinded. Yes, pharmacy schools typically consider Organic Chem I&II as their "weeding out" courses.

PS. You're welcome but I am not a pharmacy student, at least not yet.😀

 

[missboss]

Hello delano2000, you said that organic 1 and 2 are the "weeding out" courses where did you get that info from? I thought everything else really mattered? The gen chems and the bios?

 

[delano2000]

Hello delano2000, you said that organic 1 and 2 are the "weeding out" courses where did you get that info from? I thought everything else really mattered? The gen chems and the bios?

I heard that from several pharmacists that I work with and also an Admin at one of the pharm schools I spoke to in the past. But nonetheless, I am sure you can see why though right? Makes sense to me.

 

[Passion4Sci]

Physics is also a weed-out course, IMO.

 

[delano2000]

Physics is also a weed-out course, IMO.

Just out of curiosity, how important is physics in pharmacy school?

 

[deleted329060]

you said that organic 1 and 2 are the "weeding out" courses where did you get that info from? I thought everything else really mattered? The gen chems and the bios?

It's a weed out class in the sense that it's the first time people will be exposed to the material. Many students go to high schools who already cover biology and general chemistry but very very few students cover any organic chemistry prior to actually taking an organic chemistry class. In a sense, everyone is put on the same playing field and you can judge how you "rank" amongst your peers. I will say many pre-med students are no longer pre-med students after a semester of orgo

 

[Project2015]

I will say many pre-med students are no longer pre-med students after a semester of orgo

👍

 

[297point1]

Hello delano2000, you said that organic 1 and 2 are the "weeding out" courses where did you get that info from? I thought everything else really mattered? The gen chems and the bios?

Some schools use Organic Chemistry grades as a stand-alone factor in the admissions process, and give it significant weight to boot.

If you had a choice between an A in Physics and a C in Organic Chemistry 1 or the other way around, it'd be wiser to shoot for the A in Organic.

 

[charfdorn]

Hello delano2000, you said that organic 1 and 2 are the "weeding out" courses where did you get that info from? I thought everything else really mattered? The gen chems and the bios?

All of the pre-reqs are important, but Organic is considered to be the best predictor of a student's success in pharmacy school. It most closely mimics the kind of study skills and frame of mind you will need in pharm school.

 

[b1234]

I heard that from several pharmacists that I work with and also an Admin at one of the pharm schools I spoke to in the past. But nonetheless, I am sure you can see why though right? Makes sense to me.

Physics is also a weed-out course, IMO.

I always looked at them more as intro/core courses... but then again, my BS is in chem and I was a junior EE major once a long time ago...

On a slightly different note, how come all nowadays all these kids take multiple AP science courses in high school, yet still suck at math... well maybe not suck, but relatively speaking - as in they still need to take and often even struggle with classes like college algebra and pre-calc when they get to college. When I was in high school and a freshman in college, if you wanted to be a science major of any sort, it was considered way more important to get a solid math background first - Schools didn't care too much if you took AP science classes, but it was expected that you would be starting out taking calculus in your first semester of college.

 

[Silverfalcon]

On a slightly different note, how come all nowadays all these kids take multiple AP science courses in high school, yet still suck at math... well maybe not suck, but relatively speaking - as in they still need to take and often even struggle with classes like college algebra and pre-calc when they get to college. When I was in high school and a freshman in college, if you wanted to be a science major of any sort, it was considered way more important to get a solid math background first - Schools didn't care too much if you took AP science classes, but it was expected that you would be starting out taking calculus in your first semester of college.

AP exams nowadays allow calculator in some sections. I know that a large reason of me getting a very high score on AP Calculus BC (and thus, opting out of the requirement for med school regarding Calculus) was due to use of calculators in multiple choice section. The easiest way to solve derivatives and integrals without Ti-89 (I don't think this one is allowed)? Find the answer, put random numbers in the calculator, and compute integral/derivative. Bingo! You get the result immediately.

Anyway, another question here. As a back-up option, my friend is considering CUNY for undergrad and maybe switching/transferring out to pharmacy (2+4) programs. This is because other private liberal arts schools that he was initially considering are way too expensive, and he wants to rather work little bit to save money for later.

Any thoughts on CUNY in this manner? I'm not familiar with CUNY at all (didn't even consider them when I was applying for UG), besides knowing a guy or two who graduated long time ago, so if anyone can give feedback on them, that would be great. Also, if anyone knows about their rigor of courses and can respond about how pharmacy schools respond about doing prerequisites in CUNY (as opposed to say, SUNY), that would be helpful as well. Thanks again!

 

[phathead]

Physics is also a weed-out course, IMO.

Physics was a breeze. Don't think I studied once all year and pulled As

 

[b1234]

It's a weed out class in the sense that it's the first time people will be exposed to the material. Many students go to high schools who already cover biology and general chemistry but very very few students cover any organic chemistry prior to actually taking an organic chemistry class. In a sense, everyone is put on the same playing field and you can judge how you "rank" amongst your peers. I will say many pre-med students are no longer pre-med students after a semester of orgo

I think the whole concept of "weed out" classes is looked at well wrongly - for lack of a better term - by most people. If you look through all the classes that are often considered that way by many people, you'll find that they are normally the "easiest" or most basic/core courses in that field that are primarily only taken by majors and minors in that particular field - as opposed to courses that are taken by quite a few students just to meet their general requirements. Often you have people taking them that still aren't sure if that is the field for them or not, and those classes are a way to find out. Also you tend to get a higher percentage of students that care (more) about that particular class so grading curves will be higher. Often courses where teachers only expect to have students serious about the subject will teach to a higher standard also - for multiple reasons...

Some schools use Organic Chemistry grades as a stand-alone factor in the admissions process, and give it significant weight to boot.

If you had a choice between an A in Physics and a C in Organic Chemistry 1 or the other way around, it'd be wiser to shoot for the A in Organic.

Done to much greater extent with med schools.

AP exams nowadays allow calculator in some sections. I know that a large reason of me getting a very high score on AP Calculus BC (and thus, opting out of the requirement for med school regarding Calculus) was due to use of calculators in multiple choice section. The easiest way to solve derivatives and integrals without Ti-89 (I don't think this one is allowed)? Find the answer, put random numbers in the calculator, and compute integral/derivative. Bingo! You get the result immediately.

Anyway, another question here. As a back-up option, my friend is considering CUNY for undergrad and maybe switching/transferring out to pharmacy (2+4) programs. This is because other private liberal arts schools that he was initially considering are way too expensive, and he wants to rather work little bit to save money for later.

Any thoughts on CUNY in this manner? I'm not familiar with CUNY at all (didn't even consider them when I was applying for UG), besides knowing a guy or two who graduated long time ago, so if anyone can give feedback on them, that would be great. Also, if anyone knows about their rigor of courses and can respond about how pharmacy schools respond about doing prerequisites in CUNY (as opposed to say, SUNY), that would be helpful as well. Thanks again!

Sorry, but that's just pathetic... IMO over reliance on calculators is one of the reasons why so many kids nowadays suck at math...

 

[Silverfalcon]

Sorry, but that's just pathetic... IMO over reliance on calculators is one of the reasons why so many kids nowadays suck at math...

Pathetic isn't the word I would choose, but oh well. I was personally very strong at math, and that's why I was able to score high on that exam. Calculator was used to check the answers, not solve them. There's a difference in case you missed it.

And you know, if you are going to criticize kids today on their math abilities, you should criticize them for their reading abilities as well. People read far more less today than they did before (thank you internet and Facebook and TV and all that...), and such distractions cause lessened attention to mathematics as well. In addition, people who were good (or brilliant) at math are called "geeks," which can be frustrating to some kids.

P.S. I'm not sure if this has any relation to the question I posted for my friend. I would appreciate if we do not digress further and focus on the question. Thanks!

 

[b1234]

Pathetic isn't the word I would choose, but oh well. I was personally very strong at math, and that's why I was able to score high on that exam. Calculator was used to check the answers, not solve them. There's a difference in case you missed it.

And you know, if you are going to criticize kids today on their math abilities, you should criticize them for their reading abilities as well. People read far more less today than they did before (thank you internet and Facebook and TV and all that...), and such distractions cause lessened attention to mathematics as well. In addition, people who were good (or brilliant) at math are called "geeks," which can be frustrating to some kids.

P.S. I'm not sure if this has any relation to the question I posted for my friend. I would appreciate if we do not digress further and focus on the question. Thanks!

I agree, kids nowadays often don't have the verbal skills you would expect either, what I was saying is pathetic, is the fact that you're even allowed to use that type of calculator on the exam at all...

The reason comments about math skills matter - is because many students have difficulty with chemistry, biology, physics, and other science classes because they find the math too hard...